I've always been a strong believer in a self-correcting power in the Universe. Not unlike the way the human body heals itself of malady or distress. A strong impulse for healing seems to have a way of creating that very thing. And it isn't always in ways that seem obvious or planned. In fact, I think it rarely is. This does not seem to be the case with the final, and some would say, inevitable demise of the PFO. This was a slow, angry, acrimonious death that, at times, was sad and difficult to witness. Even as I write this, a Kamikaze atmosphere still lingers over what's left of the place. And the bullet hole in their foot still goes unrecognized. It's unfortunate that both sites could not co-exist in a mutually respectful and professional way, but clearly they could not. However, this conflict appears to be over. And, for what it's worth, that's a good thing. Jack, his partners and staff have created a great resource here for anyone to enjoy. And I know when I visit this site, I'd much rather spend my time and energy doing just that.

Rather splendly said. Mark!

Back from where? I was just at the site, and it's still there.

Well, good riddance I say, if they are really gone (and not just sulking at some cyber corner, trying to solicit sympathy for the laughable fate that is essentially of their own silly making). Perhaps the pathetic, wounded tone of some of the posts at the "Goodbye Board" (hey, they are still locking out threads) and the irrational "spoilt brat" replies of the admins reveal best their misguided pretensions in (still) thinking that they can "create" and "own" a community. No sympathies here; it was a "crash and burn" just waiting to happen. In any case, life will go on for the rest of the Poser community. The rabid nastiness, snarling pettiness and general small mindedness, perhaps best expressed in the "epiphanic" farewell e-mail to PFO members, will certainly not be missed. The demise of PFO, if true, is perhaps a fitting testimony to where bigotry and stupidity will lead. In turn, it is also a vindication of artistic freedom and liberty, that the dynamic force of creativity that embraces ALL aspects of our existential reality, cannot be easily censored, excluded and suppressed by those few individual with their own hidden agendas. Hopefully, the blessing in disguise in this entire amusing debacle is that they will finally "get it" (I doubt it) and in consequence, get a real life. In other words: woo hoo, we "pervs" rule! LOL! (Disclaimer: the above is tongue-firmly-in cheek and entirely my PERSONAL opinion, so don't go and whine to the Renderosity/Renderotica admins about it!)

The community forum's still at http://209.103.212.48/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Community&number=12&DaysPrune=5&LastLogin= And the Poser Forum's at http://209.103.212.48/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Poser+Forum&number=1&DaysPrune=5&LastLogin= Nobody's pulled the plug on anything as of Sunday 10:21 pm. I'm there right now.

Legume .. If you go there as a direct link it works but if you go to any of the other forums or try to back out to the main forum screen they are all gone ..Just thought I would point that out ..

Well, they changed the links, but it IS still there.

So it's still there. Wow. You don't suddenly remove a site like that when it's one like that one is. Some people still have things to reply to, replies to read, etc. You do it over a couple of days time. Anyways, for those that are happy, I'm glad you're happy. But what about the users that refuse to come here? You happy they lost a great resource? To re-emphasize what has been said on THIS forum- Ignore it if you don't like it. Right now, with all this "Happy" talk that the PFO is gone, you're doing exactly what they were accused of doing- Being bad mouthers. So until people figure out it's the USERS that matter... Adios.

Well warrior, some people ARE happy to see them go, and they have a right to feel how they wish. You're right, it IS the users that matter, and THEY are the users. There are members here who have been kicked in the ass by the PFO admins. Though I've never publicized the details (and I won't, because it's ugly, detrimental, and flat-out nobody's biz), I'm one of those folks who has left ass skin on the PFO boot. And, as many folks will tell you, I was one of the PFO's most stringent defenders. I didn't just end up here at Renderosity because Jack looks good in hot pants... It's because I was one of the "casualties" of this "war". You just look around, and you'll find LOTS of folks here wearing the "Purple Heart". If I were to kick YOU in the ass, wouldn't YOU be happy to see me get what you feel I deserve? I'm not saying I'm happy that the PFO is closed (and I have yet to be convinced they are). In fact, I could care less. It's flat-out none of MY biz. My business is to make RENDEROSITY the best site it can be, and to make sure OUR members are taken care of. And whether the PFO is closed forever or not, I will CONTINUE to make THIS site the best damn graphics site on the Net.

Have to agree with you WarriorDL ... It was a great resourse and community are going down. I have to say I went to both sites because of invauable information from both places. I might not have agree with stuff but I don't agree with stuff here either .. I just go about and brush past most of it. Currently I have been downloading a lot of the valuable stuff that isn't over here. There is so much great work that was done and is now going to be gone or at least missing for a while. Just because you don't like a certain few people doesn't mean you have to hate the place. If you don't like the President do you move away to France? No .. And yes I know it is a little different but I was just making a point. I for one am not going to quit going to any site just because someone is rude. hell Legume prides himself on being rude. Just something to think about and take it easy ... I mean like it or not a lot of people are losing what they consder their home ... Be well

Gee .. right under Legume .. I meant rude in the best possible way Laughs

Legume, and it was PFO people that were "happy" when something crappy was said about Renderosity. And they got flamed for it. It's a full friggin' circle, with BOTH sides doing it. NEITHER is innocent. All this "happiness" is showing is that Renderosity isn't the mature forum it makes itslf out to be. All it's saying is it's identical in attitude of the PFO that Renderosity says they have. Full circle, and the users lose. I applaud you for trying to make Renderosity better. I make our Sci-Fi forums the best I can as well. But to be better, you have to act better, and not bring yourself down to a level you make the opponent out to be.

Ghost, :o) Oh, and Legume, if you kicked me, I kick back. Hard :o) Real hard.

These are the MEMBERS saying these things, Warrior, not STAFF. This is THEIR site, and they, like you, are speaking their minds. One of the things I do here to make this site better is to NOT censor what the members have to say. How can I "act better" than THAT? THEY, the MEMBERS, dislike the other site, and they are as free to say so as you are to disagree. You seem to be confusing the people who LOVE Renderosity with the people who RUN Renderosity. No Renderosity administrators are here slamming them. But it's not my duty to DEFEND the PFO, either. I don't OWE them that, and I'm not going to tell the people who post here that they aren't entitled to their opinions. I'm not bringing this site down to ANY level. I'm making sure the MEMBERS have a place where they can post their opinions without having to worry about them being deleted because of "unpopular" content. If you are suggesting I practice censorship and start deleting members' posts because they state an opinion you don't like, I can assure you that I won't be the only one to tell you that you're barking up a VERY wrong tree.

Alle, now here's a differnce, ok? You are responding directly to me with that, not just flat out dissing the PFO and saying your happy they're gone all on your own. You're saying it in a responce to me. The ones I refer to are the ones just out and out saying it. That is the type of talk that the PFO was accused of doing. So it's still full circle, and some Poser users lost out without having been a part of it. Just as people are going to stick here, others were sticking there. No, they DON'T have to "get over themselves and decide to come here." They have just as much of a voice and opinion as you and anyone on this site.

Legume, did I say to censor or delete posts? Didn't think so. Did I point at Admins saying it? Didn't think so. Basically what I said was the people posting here need to THINK about what they are saying before saying it, otherwise they are doing the same thing they accuse the other side of doing, and dropping to the level they say the other side is at. Otherwise, by saying these things about the PFO, then they are just as right about here as you are about there. So neither site is/was better than the other. Full circle.

Warrior, I can respect that you kick back when kicked. That's what you're SUPPOSED to do. That's what alot of these members are doing.

Does this site need to be censored? No...but it definitely needs an adult check on it...and I think I will report it to the proper authorities. You guys are the most immature bunch I have seen. Jack. You are wrong...and you know it. If you are such the big man you make yourself out to be....then take the www.poserforum.com down and quit making it a redirect. No body cares what you do with it...give it to them...sell it to them...but you using it in any form is wrong...and you and all the members of this forum know it. You didn't create the original forum...and you are using it to your advantage. If this forum is "all that and the bag of chips" you claim it to be...then stand on your own feet with the "renderosity.com" link and get over it. If you think you are getting a lot of new users out of this...you are wrong....and your claim of having 10,000 members or whatever is wrong too..and you know that. You are still using the names of the people who originally came to this site. And I can prove that...I never signed up for renderosity.com...but here I am posting. How ya figure that? You are capitalizing on something you didn't create...had no input in...and did no work on. I am not a huge fan of the PFO...but I am even less of a fan of Renderosity.com. This site is built on disceet and if you need the proof...just type in www.poserforum.com and watch the redirect to this site. That's all the proof you need. You are all so proud...and I am sure there are some fine artists here....but if you are so proud of it...then stand on your own feet...and not the PFOs. Tammie

OK, Warrior, perhaps I misunderstood your intent. You said "...to be better, you have to act better, and not bring yourself down to a level you make the opponent out to be". I assumed this was "pointing at me" in response to my saying my job was to make Renderosity the best. Like I said, it's not my job to DEFEND the PFO, or to tell the members that they are "bringing down" our site with their opinions. Perhaps you should consider this; next week nobody's going to care. We'll all return to business as usual here at Renderosity. The PFO will either be there or it won't. People who want Poser stuff will either come here or go elsewhere. Step back from your monitor and take a deep breath. It all seems calamitous and important right now, but it's really not NEARLY as serious as you seem to think. Folks posting their PFO backlash will eventually drain all the poison from their wounds and go back to Posering. The scab will fall off and it'll be forgotten. If we do "sink to their level", we'll rise back up as soon as the wind blows away the stink. Today is not the last day on Earth. Didn't you ever see "Annie"? The sun WILL come out tomorrow....and Renderosity will still be here, offering its' members the same quality and resources that it did yesterday, today, and for as long as people want it.

Hey, that IMHO, is the defining difference here: acceptance and tolerance for ALL opinions (assenting and dissenting)and artistic forms; the other "alternative" would be: amazingly feral screams of protest and a blindingly quick thread lockout (gee, um, like fun). Perhaps a fitting epitaph: "Assholism killed them all" And to reiterate YET again: the above is tongue-firmly-in cheek and entirely my PERSONAL opinion, so don't go and whine to the Renderosity/Renderotica admins about it!

Well, tmoss, if you'd like, I will delete your membership for you. All you have to do is ask. ANY of the people in our database who would like their memberships deleted, just post here to this message board, and I, or one of my fellow admins, will see to it that you get your wish. The fact that you are posting here only proves you haven't exercised that option. We do INDEED have over 10,000 members. If we were to delete every member who signed up before the "schism", we'd be taking away their freedom to choose which site they wish to frequent. The fact that only a very few people requested it makes your point moot. Members here have ALWAYS had that option, and are free to exercise it if they so choose. We will NOT cancel ANYONE'S membership without their written consent.

Legume... that is totally backwards. If you were the great site you claim to be...then you would have had everyone resign up...that way...you would know that your membership was true and not stolen. That is the biggest cop out I have ever heard...and just proves the points I made earlier. When this site was taken over...the database should have been deleted..and no one should be registered here without their written consent. Your database may be over 10,000...but it is not because you have had 10,000 people come to this site since it was taken over and have chosen to register here. It is because you stole the database of the PFO and did not delete it. Tammie

Tammie.. nothing was stolen.. Willow abandoned this site No one held a knife or gun to her head and said get out. And I am certain that even by deleting those who don't want their memberships here there would still be well over 10,000 people. Gods.. the site is back up let it go now. Storm Who is really tired right now.

Storm...I have no problems with you. I just like looking at good art. I very rarely post on any forum but the Sci Fi Forums...which seems to have a fairly mature set of people on it. My post was not to Legume...but he chose to get into it...so I have posted replies. This will be my last post here...and like many others such as Pan..I will quit posting anywhere but the Sci Fi Forums...but everyone here needs to take a good look around..and see what is truly being done. Next time...it may be this forum that you guys love so much that goes down.

Tammie, there is no way in hell we are going to inconvenience 5000 MEMBERS just to please your sense of what's right and wrong. These people DO have the right to cancel their memberships if they CHOOSE TO at ANY TIME. They didn't. That's no cop out, that's the way things are. You didn't answer my question, Tammie, so I'll ask it again. WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO DELETE YOUR MEMBERSHIP, TAMMIE? Anyone else?

ducking.. Umm Legume.. Just make sure you don't delete mine S Storm holding up her lifetime membership card..

actually I agree with Tammie...I use this forum over PFO, but I still agree with her when Jack & Co. (yes legume, you only count as one of the "co" people) started running this they took an existing forum with a large user base, a well known URL, and (possibly most importantly) a link from within poser itself. That link is how I first found poserforum.com (when Willow was in charge here) and probably how a large percentage of the users got here. Now, I'm not going to say that Jack should have turned his back on these. You guys have done a good job here, in my opinion better than Willow & Co. were doing (but only in MY opinion)...but yes, it was willow that built up the forum, that earnt that link from within poser. I don't think this is jacks fault, when edgenet took PFO away from Willow they also took the URL away, to be honerable they should have handed the URL to her with her new PFO. But the fact remains, this site is renderosity.com, willow has PFO...and willow should have the poserforum.com domain, and the link from the program. Then renderosity should get it's own link from within poser from it's own merits (and I firmly believe it would get a link) It's not really my business, but I think you should be honorable and hand willow the poserforum.com domain, even if she is less than mature at times. SewerRat

Naw, I wouldn't do that to you, Stormy. My ol'man said to me, afore he left this crazy world, he said, "Son, always keep the well-endowed women on your GOOD SIDE..." ;)

Considering that Fur's contributions to the PFO is what made that (and this) website the navigational marvel that it is. I think that many of the BIGGEST contributors and veterans of the Poser Community are at here at Renderosity. These achievements are theirs, not Willow's! Oddly enough, most of these guys are pretty humble. They spend more time contributing, than flapping their gums about how they're they created this community. The reality is--Once upon a time, Willow was in the right place at the right time, and the PFO took off. Now it's time to widen our horizons and offer the community some alternatives. And, I'll bet the domain name argument is about a lot more than a damn web address.

Only one thing about all the above disgusts me...the mention of Legume NUDE! I'm wondering if we can get the State of Michigan to add this to their "ban list". Anyone want to join the team to make this happen? Foxhollow (trying to delete this thought from my Mind RAM)

You are totally correct Freakachu. Willow was a front person... Fur and Co is the brains behind the curtain. ARADTech

chuckles Legume..you are just chopping at the bit to delete me...but yet....according to the high law you have set...you can't without my "written permission". Ya know...all the feuding between the two forums could be solved so simply. 1. Take down the redirect...(the issue over who owns the name is between Willow and Jack...by leaving it up...Jack is causing the trouble.) Let Renderosity stand on its on feet. 2. Simply send an email to all on the database telling them that the next time they come to this forum...that they will have to re-register due to a desire of updating your database and ending any hostilites about this forum. In a week you would know what your true membership was...and if you have 10,000...then that is wonderful. The reason I posted the first time to this thread was that everyone was hollering...if Jack was doing wrong...then prove it...well...there is the proof folks. It may not get him the death penalty...but it degrades his credibilty tremendously. I will go back to just browsing through the artwork and quit posting here...just wanted to give a word of advice. Yes..I know that forums can become very personal..and that you make lots of friends on them...and they begin to feel like home at times....but you are artists...always be cautious and alert when it comes to your artwork...where you post it...find out about the people behind the forum you are posting too...read the Terms of Service (remember..Yahoo/Geocities trying to pull a fast one not too long ago)....protect yourselves...cause most likely those people that run these and other forums...will never do it for you. Tammie

Freakacu & ARADTech, thanks for the recognition! :-) Tammy, please get your facts straight first before you say anything you might regret once you know them all. Back then, I personally paid for the domain name as a gift to the community. Later that year, Willow turned her back on me, because I wanted to add more features here to make this a better place for the members. She couldn't handle the fact that I controlled the software and domain name, despite the fact that I always did whatever she asked me to. What did I get for my complete loyalty? A stab in the back on her way out. So it was my choice and mine alone on what happened to the domain name, not EdgeNet's, and not Jack's (I had never even spoken to Jack at that point.) I certainly wasn't going to hand over the name after how she tried to smear my name.

Roy, You do a great job with the software..and this forum..I have no quibbles about that. I'm glad you own the name. Like I said....no one cares about the domain name...who owns it...who gets it..at least not members who are here to do art. However, you are using it as a redirect to Renderosity.com...you are deceiving those who have heard about the PFO and are trying to get there...you are deceiving those who use the link in Poser. You believe in this site?? Take the redirect down...let it stand on it's own. I have no doubt this site will do great without the redirect. And it will increase the credibility of this site threefold. Tammie

Well now, everyone knows that .COM addresses are for commercial sites AND the PFO claims they are non-commercial. So it would seem to me that people would be more deceived if they used that domain name than their .ORG & .NET addresses.

shakes head I have never seen so many people in denial of what they are doing. I have no qualms with this site...what it does...other than...you are deceiving the public. .com, .net, .org, .whogivesashit. The poserforum is associated with the other group...was long before you came along...long before edgenet or Jack came alone. You are hurting your credibility by using the redirect. You know it is associated with the other group...and you are using it lure people here instead of building this site on your own merit. I don't post my artwork over there either...and I rarely post to either forum unless I see something just fabulous...or outrageous...which this discussion is becoming. And with the last comment you are admitting that this is a "for profit" site...and that your main goal here is to make money...and not the users or their artwork. Is that what you wanted to portray??

Tammie, I'm not "chopping at the bit" to delete you. You COMPLAINED that Renderosity didn't delete your membership. Since you are a member, I would be happy to help you rectify this at your request. If you wish to post after that, you may feel free to rejoin. However, if you do rejoin, you really won't have a valid complaint, will you? You're not willing to VOLUNTARILY do the very thing you've demanded that we FORCE our members to do. Feel free to spout all you wish. We will NOT inconvenience 10,000 people for the benefit of YOUR personal agenda. Your continued posting indicates to me that you wish to exercise your posting priviedges as a member of Renderosity, and that you don't wish to have your membership deleted. I can't blame you for that. We here at Renderosity try to make this the best site we can, and to me your refusal of my offer of membership deletion tells me that you are a woman with good taste who obviously recognizes a quality site when you see one.

Legume, You are a most arrogant man. I have no personal agenda..I could care less. Delete me if you wish...I will not reregister. And that was not my point to begin with. I came here to see the responses of the PFO possibly closing. I got the answers I needed. I never claimed that the PFO was innocent...but you have definitely proven your guilt in these roles. Members of this site kept asking for proof...so I have pointed out the things I have noticed..that your site came with a built in database...and the pointless redirect from the poserforum. I wish you luck. And I hope that you will find a way to promote this site legitimately. Laters.

Actually, Roy, not everyone knows what .com, .org and .net stand for. The vast majority of people joining the internet anywhere could care less what they stand for. To them, it's just a part of a URL.

Gosh, Tammie, you hurt my feelings. I won't delete your membership "if I wish". It's not MY choice to delete ANYONE'S membership. Your membership will remain in our database until you say "PLEASE REMOVE MY NAME FROM YOUR DATABASE".

Excuse me, long before I came along?? Hello, who do you think it was that was hand updating the Fun Stuff html pages every Sunday night? I can remember a time before there was even a Grey or DD, thank you very much!

This whole thing is better than WWF Smackdown on Thursday nights. I get to see all the s**t every day!

That motley drama!-oh, be sure It shall not be forgot! With its Phantom chased forever more, By a crowd that sieze it not, Through a circle that ever returneth in To the self-same spot, And much of Madness and more of Sin And Horror the soul of the plot. -Edgar Allan Poser

LOL good one wyrwulf!!

Isn't it kind of ridiculous to trifle over a generic name anyway? I mean, "Poser Forum" has the same chances of being registered as a trademark as "Lean Beef" or "Organic Chemistry".

Legume wrote:

"These are the MEMBERS saying these things, Warrior, not STAFF. This is THEIR site, and they, like you, are speaking their minds.

One of the things I do here to make this site better is to NOT censor what the members have to say. How can I "act better" than THAT? THEY, the MEMBERS, dislike the other site, and they are as free to say so as you are to disagree. You seem to be confusing the people who LOVE Renderosity with the people who RUN Renderosity.

No Renderosity administrators are here slamming them. But it's not my duty to DEFEND the PFO, either. I don't OWE them that, and I'm not going to tell the people who post here that they aren't entitled to their opinions.

I'm not bringing this site down to ANY level. I'm making sure the MEMBERS have a place where they can post their opinions without having to worry about them being deleted because of "unpopular" content.

If you are suggesting I practice censorship and start deleting members' posts because they state an opinion you don't like, I can assure you that I won't be the only one to tell you that you're barking up a VERY wrong "

Wow, a refreshing attitude. I miss those days. Too bad Legume isn't around these parts anymore. kind of interesting re-reading the history of this site.

Quote - ...kind of interesting re-reading the history of this site.

Indeed.  Especially for those of us who weren't around back then.
Thanks for the bump, 'Bro. ;-]

I was kind of surprised to find this. Of course the old C&D forum is gone and the Virtual Tavern with it. I don't think they've survived to read anymore, although I could be mistaken. But it's nice that SOME of the old threads remain.

AAAAAAAAAAAIIIEEEE Zombie Thread!

Run for the hills! it wants Braaaaaaiiiinnnssssssss.............

Wow, for a minute there I thought I was in the Twightlight Zone. I couldn't figure out WHAT was going on, LOL. Course, I didn't notice the date of the first post. Sigh.... to early in the morning I guess LOL

Oh ugh, Flashbacks.  ;)