To stop the hatred/rotten opinions/bad blood, let's try something mature: Biting your lip. No, I don't mean physically biting it! L Many threads have been started with people saying their feelings on the matter. Fine. What's done is done. But if you see something you agree with, for good OR bad, let it go. Just say to yourself or whoever is in the room with you that you agree. Got something new that isn't productive to the community to say? Don't say it. Write it on a piece of paper or something. But try not to post it on any forums. All that does is keep the festering growing, and reflects bad on yourself. How? Because it's showing you have to have the last word. You like to argue. You like to ecourage hatred. Here is a little something from a Columbine student (remember the hatred there? Many students were killed over it)-[next post]-

"The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller buildings, but shorter tempers; wider freeways, but narrower viewpoints; we spend more, but have less; we buy more, but enjoy it less. We have bigger houses, but smaller families; more conveniences, but less time; we have more degrees, but less sense; more knowledge, but less judgment; more experts, but more problems; more medicine, but less wellness. We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We've learned how to make a living, but not a life; we've added years to life, but not life to years. We've been all the way to the moon and back, but have trouble crossing the street to meet the new neighbor. We've conquered outer space, but not inner space; we've cleaned up the air, but polluted the soul; we've split the atom, but not our prejudice. We have higher incomes. But lower morals; we've become long on quantity, but short on quality. These are the times of tall men and short character; steep profits and shallow relationships. These are the times of world peace, but domestic warfare; more leisure, but less fun; more kinds of food, but less nutrition. These are the days of two incomes, but more divorce; of fancier houses, but broken homes. It is a time when there is much in the show window and nothing in the stockroom; a time when technology can bring this letter to you, and a time when you can choose either to make a difference.. ...or just hit delete."

Warrior sez: How? Because it's showing you have to have the last word. You like to argue. You like to ecourage hatred. How about encouraging dialog, or speaking out on things we believe need changing. Revolutions can be fought with words and there has been no bloodshed. Dialog, discussion, and argument are all precursors to change. I personally don't want things to be the way they were, I like it out in the open. I like the changes that have occured in the past year. This would have never happened without the rivalry or the conflicts that have happened as a reaction to the way things WERE. Comparing the Forum feuds to Columbine is like comparing kindergarten to the Third Reich. Censorship of ideas or opinions only leads to greater problems in the long run.

P.S. I've always liked Darrin--if he gets the reins at the PFO, it will definately be a big WIN for everyone in the Poser Community.

Now who the friggin' hell said anything about censorship? Huh? Well? Find that damn word in my post. I am getting sick of people continually saying that, when it's not said at friggin' all. No, it's NOT like comparing the two. There is a BIG difference between arguing for the sake of change for the better, and arguing for arguings sake just to argue and cause problems. Learn the difference.

The fact of the matter is that I have bitten my lip so much it is bleeding. Sometimes one must speak his/her opinion to be free of it. By the way, and this is somewhat of an aside: I get really tired of the: "The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller buildings, but shorter tempers argument." Exactly when did we live in a peaceful paradise was it in the forties during the 2nd world war? or maybe during the 1'st. Maybe during the inquisition? People were real tolerant of others opinions then. Maybe it was when Rome ruled Europe cuase as history shows us they were a moral, peaceful people. or maybe, well you get the idea.... The fact of the matter is most people in this day and age solve thier disputes in a very rational and adult manner through converstation, debate, and if worse comes to worse litigation if you ask me it's better than the sword, gun, or gas chamber any day of the week.

"solve thier disputes in a very rational and adult manner" Bingo.

Alle, I do know the difference. In case you hadn't noticed- "2) Willow and Grey can leave" They have left. So it's time to move forward. And be mature. Let it be in the past where it belongs.

"For a long time after that I practiced keeping my mouth shut no matter what I thought." I have heaqrd this from so many people about PFO and I have seen how people are berated simply for voicing their opinion in an adult and rational manor only to be berated like they are bad children by the king of lip Grey. There is something fundamentally wrong with Forum owners telling there members to shut the hell up. It is a forum, which by definition is "a public meeting place for open discussion". That is why I stopped frequenting the PFO a long while ago I was sick of the dictatorship.

Warrior, there is no similarities between the Columbine massacre and the Forum feuds. Those kids STOPPED talking and started SHOOTING to solve a problem. I don't think the members discussion of the problem is adding to it, I think it's bringing it out to the open. Look past the seemingly petty squabbles to SEE what the community is upset and concerned about. There are issues here that concern ALL of us. Biting our lips, and convincing others to keep quiet in the interest of keeping the peace only masks the real issues, it doesn't make them go away. I doubt anyone is arguing for argument's sake--I see no real peace with the PFO until someone a bit more accomodating to the needs of the community (and not to their egos) takes charge and makes the changes for the better. It won't be perfect, but it will certainly get better.

Warrior does have a point, though. It's great to get your feelings out in the open and work through them, but a few people don't work through things. Instead, they keep rehashing things, over and over again. Things fester and become poisonous. Others become sick from the venom. We can't let that happen. We need to move on.

hmm, if there is something new to be said, then yes, say it but how many messages here are saying exactly the same things, with the same responses? I'm sure I could come up with at least five moderately long threads that contain essentially the exact same content. In a case like that yes, bite your lip. Or if you feel people should know you feel the same...add to an existing thread "I feel the same" If you have something to say that hasn't been said before, by all means say it.... honestly, this is one issue, shouldn't it be one thread? Maybe you could see three or four issues under this general topic...three or four threads. why two full pages of threads in that case? Imagine if we had this many threads on how to use phi builder...either a forum would be started for phi builder or people would just be replying to the new ones "your question has already been answered in this thread (insert URL here)" So don't censor...but then again, you aren't helping anything by repeating what has already been said and read by everyone (and this coming from the king of ranting, so feel free to call me a hypocrite) SewerRat

People rehash things when the person they are addressing fail to comprehend what was said/written to them. Darth_Logice: "I like blue" Merash: "Oh, so you hate pink then eh???" Darth_Logice: "No, I said I like blue. I made no reference to my feelings for the color pink." Merash: "No reference to pink huh? What have you got against Pink anyway???" Darth_Logice: "Pink is not the issue. The issue is blue, and I like it." Merash: "Why are you so afraid to talk about Pink???" Darth_Logice: "Listen, Godda***t. The subject is the color Blue. If you like, later, we can talk about pink all bloody day. Right now, it's all about blue. Are you an idiot or something?" Merash: "Oh, so now you're going to insult me huh? You must be a drunk-driving rapist or NeoNazi or something." Darth_Logice: "I really do like blue." Suprisingly, this is how MANY arguments go. One person completely fails to listen to the other in a radically idiotic fashion. Please see the "I Love Darth Maul, but C'mon..." thread in the complaint forum for a perfect example. -Darth_Logice

darth, you just managed to give us a forumula for 90% of the arguments on here. probably higher =) we already have WIP...why not BPA blue/pink argument...so every time this starts someone can just write BPA and forget about the thread =) ok. stupid idea. I apologise. SewerRat

Freak, don't recall saying anywhere, "Hey! Look at this! This is just like Columbine! Compare them!". Regarding Columbine, all I asked is if anyone remembered that. But on a side note of that, since you were comparing them, then compare this to Columbine- Those kids had a hate web page online right up til the shootings. And right now, I see a lot of hate around here for the PFO. Now before anyone goes off half-cocked, READ what I just said- I see a lot of hate around here, not every person around here is hateful. Dunno what the PFO itself did to get that anger aimed at it, since the PFO is the people that go to that forum, not Willow and not Grey. Willow is Willow and Grey is Grey. The PFO is a whole bunch of people. Put plainly, you missed the entire point of what I posted. Fortunatly, Cresent, SewerRat and Darth understood.

I understood your content warrior, but I do disagree with the initial post. I believe in and support open dialogue about anything, so long as things remain logical, factual and progressive. When the arguments stray away from those guidelines, I hang in there as best as I can, until it turns into Camp. As long as one member of this forum cares about the split and the fallout then I'd say it's realevent to discuss. Darth

So did I, Warrior. I'll be glad when Sci-Fi Arts is back. I know people are pissed at Willow and Grey. I've heard both sides ad nauseum! Which is right? How the heck do I know?! I want to LEARN and POST. I'm not interested in hearing the same arguements over and over again. And so help me, if I hear that word 'censorship' again, I'm gonna go ballistic! Seems everytime the anticensorship crowd disagrees with you, they scream that word, even if it isn't what you mean! SIGH Greywolf

The key intent on the initial post- "Got something new that isn't productive to the community to say? Don't say it. Write it on a piece of paper or something. But try not to post it on any forums. All that does is keep the festering growing, and reflects bad on yourself." If it's something new, post it. Otherwise, why keep beating a friggin dead horse over and over? Who is it the point is trying to made to? Newbies? Oldies? Who? Cresent and SewerRat hit it on the head by getting the meaning of that (least, I think they did, given what they wrote) Thought you got that too, Darth.

I did get it, I simply disagree :) It is entirely within the scope and context of a forum to have people understand what you are saying, but present an opposing viewpoint. Some people jumped on you in a personal way for expressing your opinion...I did not. I respect what you said from the angle you're coming in on. You'll note my only input to this thread was to present what commonly passes for debate in the forum and why people get repetitive. I only stepped in to illustrate that I disagreed with your theme when you implied that I was on board. Frankly, I find the whole thing fascinating. -Darth_Logice

Darth, I don't want anyone "onboard" L Just making sure we're on the same page. Sure, you don't have to agree. Never said you had to. Just wanted people to understand what was said, and not twist the words :o)

I strive for Logic at all times and thus, attempt to always stay true to what is actually said/written. (Not a big hit with the ladies, me...lol) -DL

A Darth is not a Vulcan, therefore is not logical L

Er, in Ancient times, long before the skywalkers, the Sith divided itself into factions and was at war with one another for power. The victorious Sith Lord remained on Byss and began the tradition of Master/Apprentice and that's it school. Remaining Sith fled the galaxy to find a new home(s). Generations ago, A Sith ancestor Landed on Vulcan. The Vulcans took us in and a cultural exchange was developed. We gave them an understanding of the force, and they convinced us to drop the light/dark side way of thinking in favor of logic. Though Vulcans are not due to publicly arrive on Earth until 100 years or so, they've been watching and have recruited earthlings to prepare for first contact. Its a great gig but doesn't pay well. -Darth "wink wink (not crazy)" Logice

LMAO

Damn you guys, this thread isn't about science fiction, and I DEMAND you cease trying to change the subject away from its' original message! Get back to PINK versus BLUE already!

you're just jealous because we know about the Vulcan Sith Lords (VSL's) than you do. Did you know that there was a move to stifle the VSI's, but it was vetoed by the council on accounts of not supressing personal religious beliefs. true story. SewerRat

They fear PORKY.

Sorry. I made an error, I should have said "not supressing personal religious beliefs, except that of PORKY. true story." Because everyone is free to follow their own religious beliefs except for legume. you're special man! SewerRat (who has a part-time job at the spanish inquisition...THE WORLD IS SO FLAT! YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT!)

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of extreme nastiness, I shall fear no evil, for PORKY walketh with me, and S/He/It shall wedgeth the bottle of the waters of death into the asses of mine enemies, and kicketh it until it doth break.

uuuurgh after that graphic description of THE WRATH OF PORKY I've decided to quite my job at the spanish whatsit. their pay wasn't that good anyway. SewerRat (now if the christians threatened that as well I bet there would be way more converts)

Taz and Marvin Martian walks with me :o)