Come to think of it, I guess the biggest reason I don't like the review form idea is because it takes out the entire reason I like the forum, which is because I want to DISCUSS images. It's not really a critique the other way, more like a comment card. In fact, I can't really see how any sort of form would tell me anything useful about my work. Ok. So I got rated a 4 on lighting and 5.6 on technical. What's that mean? Am I making any sense here at all? Maybe that sort of thing could be made available as an extra to the forum, but if that's all the forum was, I'd probably never bother. No offense, to anyone, btw... That's just my opinion. I think it's terrific people are taking the time to think so much about this thing, even if I don't agree with them. Regards, Paul P.S.: This is my last post for a while... honest... I'm shutting up now.... (Sorry about the spam - I know reading my posts here is starting to get like what happens when you use the VERBOSE command in Zork. )

Paul, Do you think you could turn your...ahhh..."disertation" grin into faq wording. You've got some good points there! As you mentioned, and audre, confirmed in another thread, this one's going to take some time and every bit of additional help would get this thing off the ground. As for categories/ratings, I believe the forum could be constructed to accomodate both. The "OVERALL" category could be changed to INCLUDE general comments. Remember, it was mentioned above to include text boxes for each category so a critiquer could provide added info for the rating. I would really like to see at least the categories stay because they give some structure--a way to guide and think about critiquing that is totally absent in the galleries. IMO, I believe that lack of structure contributes to the their failure as a source for improving artists. As for a numbering system, I'm not particularly hard up on that; however, I thought from the few examples I provided that it pointed to specifics. A simple text box could accomplish the same thing...just take more time. Paul (too) P.S. You're right, Pauls are nice people :-)

Another thought on categories is that, IMO, they'd do a bit of disservice to a lot of people. I'd support having such a form available to the critiquer, but, in a lot of cases I can see it limiting the feedback. For instance, most of the time that I spend analyzing and interpreting a piece in my head, I just let whatecer thoughts come to me, follow them to their conclusions, and then move to the next thought. For those of us who work in that way, it would limit us to immediately give us a "form" to which we were adhering, and it would probably actually do the reverse of what it was intended for. So, my thought is this: Leave the critiquing open so that people don't feel they have to stick to a predetermined method, but make it available so that if the person wants to use it they can easily access it, and apply the format to their post. This all assumes, also, that R'osity's coding guy has the time to set something up. As I understand it, they've been keeping him pretty overloaded, and one person locked in a cage being fed bread and water can only do so many things at once. ( That's an inside reference to one of Micheleh's posts elswhere. ) Regards, Paul P.S.: Sorry about the spam above, again... I'd just put in a twelve hour day of physical labor for my family, and hadn't posted for a while. It's Paul's law: The length of my posts in inversely proportional to the number of post I make in a sitting, while remaining geometrically explosive to the power of time I've been thinking about them. Summed up as L = ( x^P ) / n.

I was actually kinda thinking that if someone didn't want to use the "formatted" critique, they'd just jump to the "general comments" text box. Paul 1+1 = 2 :-)

you know me!! masochist that i am!! hell yeah thgatwould rock!!

i cant wait!!!

Whatn I'm saying, Pablo, that I may not be getting across well, is that such a form being the first the person sees is going to make them think it's a necessity. Also, it would add clutter if every time I wanted to critique an image, or respond to another post, I'd have to deal with a long form like that. That's why I say that the idea should be accessible, while not being integral to the comments. Consider this thread, and what it would be like to carry on this conversation if a "form" popped up every time you wanted to respond. Also consider: The bigger threads take time to load for people with slower connections. Adding more information unecessarily would make it even slower, and a lot of people would just not bother. Guess maybe I'm a minimalist. I don't want to shoot your idea down, it just seems counter to the forum I have in my mind. Hence, the compromise of, why not put it there, but make it an extra that people can use if they want to? Regards, Paul

The idea doesn't have to be shot down at all. Realize that folks have different "preferences" and get on with finding a solution that everyone can use. Ever been to "freestuff" and noticed at the top of the page there's a couple of "Prefs" selections? Couldn't one use the same method here? Those that like a structured method can chose one, those that like a more freeform approach can choose the other.

I've attempted to capture and address some of the concerns expressed thus far in a FAQ format. Let me know if I missed yours. === Q. Whats the purpose of the Critique Forum? A. The Critique Forum is a place for artists to learn. Artists improve their talents by posting their images for feedback on its artistic merits and the general populace learns from others, developing a critical eye. This not only helps them learn to provide better critiques BUT also improve their own art as well. For beginners, it guides them toward more advanced proficiency while giving advanced artists the opportunity to push the limits of the talent. === Q. I can make comments in the galleries. Why do we have a separate forum? A. 1) The objective of this forum is to learn. Moderators will be aggressive in maintaining that objective. 2) This forum is open to all media. Therefore, youll receive a wider cross-section of artists viewing and critiquing images and, perhaps, offering different perspectives and greater depth. 3) For each image, comments posted here should be more immediate and targeted toward artistic learning than what youd find in the galleries === Q. What are the rules for this forum? A. There are no additional rules to the TOS; however, we do have a few guidelines that should be emphasized due to the nature of this forum. - Personal attacks will not be tolerated. Keep all comments constructive targeted toward the image, not the artist or yourself. - Products in development or promotions are not to be posted in this forum and will be removed. === Q. Id like to post my image here for feedback, but Im afraid Ill get negative feedback. A. By posting your image in this forum, you acknowledge that you may receive both positive and negative comments. If you dont have a thick skin, you should reconsider posting your image. === Q. Im generally pleased with my image, but would like feedback on just one aspect. Can I specify what Id like the general audience to focus on? A. Absolutely! Artists posting an image are highly encouraged to include specific questions they may have for the group. === Q. What is Constructive Criticism A. Constructive criticism provides a learning benefit to all readers. It generally takes the form of I like/dislike ___ because.... You might try.... More specifically: - Select and discuss items that work well in the image - Discuss items that could be improved, provide rationale, and suggest possible ways to implement the improvement - Comments should be positive and targeted toward the subject matter, not the artist or yourself. Attempt to be objective, disregarding your own personal preferences. If you really dislike image and cant contribute anything that would benefit the artist (or the community), it would be better to withhold posting. Additionally, gratuitous praise or raving insults do not promote the objectives of this forum. === Q. How should I frame my critique? A. Critiques can be done in numerous ways. You can use a conversational style or a more analytic, structured one. To aid in considering artistic elements, a template has been included at the top of this forums page* that you can either reference or cut/paste into your reply and fill in. These elements include: EMOTIONAL IMPACT: Is the image a compilation of parts or does it elicit emotion? CREATIVITY Is the subject matter unique or has it been portrayed numerous times. Does the image contain any unique aspects in technique, style, etc.? CONSISTENCY: Are there any contrary elements in the image (e.g., shadows falling in the wrong direction, setting appropriate to the subject)? LIGHTING and COLOR Is the image over- or under-saturated? Is color and/or light well balanced or otherwise appropriate to this composition? Does the use of color and/or light enhance or detract from the subject? TECHNIQUE Does the image contain technical flaws? Are they particularly distracting? COMPOSITION Is the image well balanced or does it seem to be heavy or light in some areas? ATTENTION TO DETAIL Does the image contain a level of detail thats not normally expected? OVERALL What are your impressions of the overall image? === Q. How can I overcome my uneasiness in providing negative feedback? A. Negative feedback is just as, if not more, important to the learning process as positive comments. By posting their image in this forum, the artist acknowledges, and accepts, the likelihood they will receive negative comments. If you can accept that improvement is a positive outcome, there really are no negative commentsprovided they are constructive. === * Discussed with audre the idea of a form. Since it would compound and delay getting this started, she suggested a low-tech cut/paste method for now. Sounds good to me! Paul

WOWOWOW i am excited... you've done a wonderful job!! now i need to bug Spike... BIG GRIN

I wonder how come my computer didn't catch those grammar errors. :-)

Looks like a perfect compromise of the views, Pablo... Well done! Paul *8^>

Paul, I thought you might like it.