In response to recent posts of the Amy figure being develeoped for TurboSquid. Friends, beware of the Amy figure. DOn't get tangled in this mess. I don't want anyone to loose their money or be hurt. This is another example of disguising another persons hard work using 3d software to make the new mesh appear original. She is not from scratch. There is no doubt. Even the flaw in Posette's posture is duplicated. Don't we already have posette? So much for talent. We all have limitations as artists. I, for example, can't do hands to save my life. But that doesn't mean I can take someone elses and say it is okay because most of the model is mine. I think sometimes artists work on something so much they "forget" they borrowed from others. It scares me that anyone would risk damaging the reputations of others like Traveler and smallspace by entagling them in a project like this. Everyone should be wary before agreeing to help someone with a product, even friends. Doing something like this is bad enough but what is worse is dragging innocent people into it as well. It isn't fair to deceive people, whether it is us, Traveler, Renderosity, TurboSquid or smallspace. There are too many nice people here who might not know when someone is trying to fool them. I know how to tell and can't let anyone do that to people I know or care about not to a someone I don't know. I think Chris who made Posette and Daz are owed an apology. On that note. Catch you later. Anton Kisiel antonk68@aol.com

Oh, dear. It looks like someone simply used a smoothing function to get more vertices to push around. In addition to the insult about the DAZ modelers being in grade school when Tom was modeling (someone obviously has never met Dan and Chris), we also have an injury revolving around a probably plagierized model. ::shake head sadly:: I agree that the worst is taking advantage of good people and endangering their reputations. Traveler is a nice guy and incredibly generous; I hope his feelings don't get hurt. We tend to trust each other as we hope that others trust us. This is sorry news, but we need to know. Thank you. Carolly

Interesting Anton. Does anyone know who "Imagine works" is? They are the developers of Amy right? Do they have a history or a website to check out their history? *Let me just caution everyone, We should not get out our pitchforks and firearms out just yet. But this look like something that needs further "friendly" investigation. Thanks for the heads up Anton. ScottA

Wow, you would have thought people would have learned by now, it's amazing how many so called merchants are trying to make a buck off of someone else's hard work. I've had some doubts about sharing some of my latest stuff just because so many things that are given away by charitable members or sold by talented creators seem to show up in other people's products without their blessing. This is really damaging the community, but I guess that doesn't mean much to these people. Well thanks for the heads up Anton, from what I remember from an earlier post she's been around for a few months (correct me if I'm wrong) and it's surprising no one has noticed this before, or maybe they just didn't bother to speak-up.

oopsie. Good catch Anton :) Your images make it painfully clear. Thing is, people might have been able to get away with this kind of silliness a few years back, but at this point we are all too knowladgable and aware. People have brought up this kind of thing in relation to Turbosquid before. A free character (John Malis' I think?) was being sold on Turbosquid by somebody else. After complaint and verification by the orirignal creator - the file is still there for sale. Needless to say I'm not buying from them. Ever. People who are that unconcerned about legality are not to be trusted with my credit card number. Thanks Anton! Lyrra

Hrm, let me get this straight? They have simply subdivided Posette, and are now claiming it is their original work and selling it? Who is selling it, and where?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12413&Form.ShowMessage=672871

This is the announcement of release

eep! No Scott, I'm not ready to get my pitchfolk because I don't have anywhere near the modeling knowledge to know what's what, but those pics sure do form quite the argument. I'd be interested to know if a comparision of their heads reveals the same degree of similarity.

Anton, you bought Amy? And then found out? Wow I'd be pissed. Thanks for saving me @ least $50. ~EA

Before you go accusing someone of theft in public forum, you'd better have more than your own personal opinion. Dan Farr from DAZ and Tom Knight from Imagination Works have been in communication. DAZ is well aware of the Amy mesh and have made NO claims that any part of it was taken from one of their meshes. Pam form Imagination Works will be responding to your accusations, but know this: your carelessness has probably done irreparable damage to a company that has been serving the 3D industry for 10 years. This was not well done. Steve Taylor, AKA smallspace

Then can you explain why the mesh is so incredibly similar to Posettes? Because the images shown above look like Amy is Posette with her quads turned into a pair of three-sided faces, and then morphed. If this is not the case, please explain. If it is coincidence, and can be proven, then I would like to believe in you. If the accusation is true and can be proven, however, then I would not shed a tear at the loss of a company that stole intellectual property. However, I am going to keep my mind open for right now. Because I want to see you refute the evidence above.

Smallspace, Actually, I just spoke to Daz. You are lying. Everything you just wrote is a lie. They do agree this is partly Posette and are very upset. You are lying or being lied to yourself. It amazes me how a someone will lie to your face when cconfronted with the unshakable truth. Do you think we are that stupid? Anton

Just because a claim hasn't been made doesn't mean you can go and use it without at least INFORMING people.... and you know what cracks me up SO bad? In your initial message, you said something about imagination works understanding a couple basic principles. One of them being that "just adding more vertices to an area of a model doesn't necessarily make it better"... and yet as Anton has showed us, this is exactly what happened in the hands. Plus, didn't you say something (perhaps as part of one of the images) about her hands LOOKING much better then anything else around? Well damn, her hands look exactly like Posette's.

Anton merely brought something to our attention. And I have stated we WON'T be forming a lynch party until we see some more info. Research it a little more. And talk to the creators about it. I am looking forward to seeing what the creators have to say about this. Nobody's reputation has been damaged. Only questioned. ScottA

Amy - Possette, in response to Scott's call for "friendly" investigation and Scifiguy's query...

Well we modelers are always on the look out for our work to be modified and then resold, that is our biggest sorrow, just as when someone creates a texture or a picture. Can't tell you how many times I have created a picture that I thought was so original only to have someone point out to me that although mine was an original piece of work, someone else also had the same idea and created something so simalar it was scary. It actually made me feel bad because I didn't want anyone to accuse me of theft of any kind. Being accused of stealing is huge and hurtful, just as being the victim of theft. Let's take a breath and do as Scott says, research, then form an opioion on our own research, not hear say. Sharen

lol. Obviously they didn't copy the neck. Eeeek. How soft and shapely. :) The type of inconsistencies are always dead giveaways.

Feet (and the rest of the anatomy) look different also, at least to my eye.

This is a front view of BOTH the Posette and Amy figures loaded. Man if that is coincidence we all need to run out and play the lottery. Alost of time the lines can look very different. These types of rip-offs are made like clothes are. The creators hope this different look will prevent them from being caught. My guess the body was made by resizing and morphing Posette and then skinning her or building the base mesh from clothing meshes. Funning how the two figures fit inside each other. But I really think the hands say it all. Wasn't she suppose to be from scratch? Same height? Same width? from scratch? hardly. I am so sick of seeing these copycats preying on the innocent Poser users tricking them into buying not only a copy but a bad one. Anton

PheonixRising, I think I'm losing the plot here. Are you saying that some parts look the same which proves that Posette has been copied, and some parts look different which is even more proof that Posette has been copied? I find that very confusing.

To all,

Anton has not done anything to damage anyone's reputation but has merely posted comparison images of the Poser 4 model and Amy from Imagination Works. We purchased Amy last night because we were suspicious that she may have been created from the P4 model. We spend several hours looking over the Mesh this morning and concluded (in our opinion) that Amy was definitely created from the P4 model. Some of our conclusions became evident right away, for example, the hand of Possette and the hand of Amy are identical with the exception that Amy's hand is triangulated and the fingernails are longer than Possette's.

We contacted Anton this morning for his oppinion on this. He obviously shares our conviction about this issue. Anton was merely trying to inform you, his friends, about his findings.

We don't want a public trial or lynching over this. As with similar issues in the past we prefer to contact the artist directly as well as the store that is selling the product in question. We have contacted TurboSquid and expect that this issue will be resolved soon. They have always been quick and willing to work with us on issues like this.

I hope that this clarifies our stance on this issue. We appreciate your support on this issue as well.

Sincerely,

Dan Farr
President, DAZ Productions

Thanks Dan. We will be watching to see what happens. ScottA

OK ScottA...Can I light my torch now? :)

I dont know enough about modeling to tell,
but the DAZ
folks and Mr Kisel are proven experts in this area.

Ironically this type of thing probably happens far more than isgenerally known
But most probably just quietly slip their
purloined 3D meshes/wares into the market
with little or no fanfare and hope for the best.

But its obviously riskier when you come here and
and brutully trash every other female poser model in existance(and by extension and implication those of us who were "stupid" enough to by them!!!)

and proclaim that you HAVE COME TO SAVE US FROM OURSELVES by gracing us with your perfect woman you "created"

however this plays out it will be painful to watch.:-/

Dan, I respect your statement and position here. While we are taking a neutral stance on this issue at this time, we will be following the details closely. I would encourage the community to not work into a frenzy over this and hope that level heads prevail. Regards, Steve Cooper Curious Labs

Thanks Anton and Dan for keeping us posted. I'm sure neither of you were particularly anxious to be the bearer of bad tidings. :( I sincerely hope this isn't what it appears to be, and will be watching for any updates to the community.

Actually, I think it's kind of entertaining (despite having spent the $50.) The politics on "Survivor" have nothing on the Renderosity forums. Gotta keep your sense of humor! :p

I noticed the similarities between the meshes at a glance, exported posette as an obj and imported into 3ds...ran the smooth funtion and wound up with a mesh very similiar to amy's. after remapping the smoothed mesh, I applied a happyworld land texture to the obj in poser. the image is the smoothed mesh and rendered obj. why not try something that simple? apply a texture to the amy model from any available posette textures..I bet it will work, if amy is posette.

Man, I'm reading this thread and just chuckling uncontrollably, not so much because it's funny, but because it's scary. I'm not going to say, "Yes, it's a copy" or "No, it's not" simply because I don't feel qualified to make that judgment. I can, however, say that they look terribly similar, but again, I am not a modeller. This is just damn scary. I understand a little better now some fears of folks who do model. You're brave souls. I'll be lurking in the shadows waiting to see how this turns out. (For the record, I wasn't impressed by the model OR texture (and also found it odd that it used one whole texture, an awful lot like Posette's now that I think about it). And um, will this mean that the plethora of clothing is nothing but ripped off Zygote/DAZ stuff? Oops, I said I'd stay out of this. /me puts away his bag of questions.)

Hi Steve, Sorry I forgot to mention CuriousLabs. Of course the P4female is part your software. I admire diplomatic people. I used to be diplomatic once. lol. Not sure where that road ended. :) Anyway, everyone has the info now and is aware. You guys will take it from here. Goodluck. Always nice to see a happy ending, Anton

I am reminded of a quote from Nietzsche, unfortunately, as it has been proven they have made at least ONE lie (that they have contacted DAZ): "No one lies so boldly as the man who is indignant." Oh, well...

Good on ya Anton. Nice to have a protector. Now I know my "feelings" about this model were on the money and speaking of money I'm glad I didn't spend any. Marque

Just wondering how many people
are frantically searching though their Model Archives
for space ships that are similar to the "project Magellean" Craft that was introed by Small space a few weeks back
.
once the frenzy starts........

I have a newbie question: Posette is the nude p4 woman model right? That would belong to curious labs right? Did Daz3d have input on this model (Posette)? Turbo Squid is in the same market as Daz3d right? Creating and selling models and textures for Poser? Just trying to get it right in my head.

Dan Farr Let's put the geometry issues aside for a moment. IS DAZ claiming that the proportions of the P4 Female and the Millenium figures are DAZ intellectual property? If I were modeling a from scratch human female model(something I've already done) I would specifically make it to fit all the existing P4 or Millenium clothing and props. When I made my models I took 2D orthogonal renders and then made my geometry fit the body proportions. Now I've made my own hands, feet, face etc without reference to the 3D geometry but have kept the proportions the same. Even if I hadn't, all I would have to do is make a Morph that I could call P4 Body Proportions or Millenium Body Proportions. Thanks in advance for your comment.

I am reminded of one of my favorite quotes from a training manuel for the SS: "Imitation is the bravest form of deception." ;) Someone here was awfully, terribly, brave and deceptive.

looking at the images, it'd be a hard call IMHO, PART of it is the same mesh. However, part of it is not. legally, if the mesh is < 50% changed...aint no arguement, you can say 'its mine' if the hands are the only parts copied, its greater than 50% changed so there is nothing that can be said other than "the hands belong to posette" But, I'd say that part of it is posette and part original. In the end, if the creator hangs onto the "I made it" thing, I dont think it can be proven to be >50% posette other than stance and hands. shrug if its posette...shamey shamey on someone cause I coulda swore I had posette already :P BT

Well, doesn't this just suck in a major way. Okay everyone, throw sucker on my head because I bought this. I never used posette, I went straight to Vicki/Mike and then Steph. Oh, well, I guess 50 bucks is not too much lost on a hard lesson. /sigh JDexter

Okay, Posette is P4 nude woman, right? JDexter

What seems saddest to me, looking at the above and at the press release for Amy, is that it seems that Amy could have been put in PCF format to protect the original copyright and sold as an add-on to Posette. I think many people would have paid the same price for the improvements pictured if they were presented as such rather than as a brand new figure. 50% rule aside, I think it's clear that this figure is not "built by hand from the ground up."

thanks anton. i bookmarked it because i was interested in buying amy. the advertising sounded so good. i was mostly interested in the posing positions it claimed: "Amy really does bend well. Tom knight, Amys creator shows an uncanny understanding of joint setup and the use of spherical fall off. Unlike Stephanie, Amy doesnt break apart when bent if her shoulders or thighs are scaled asymmetrically. I especially like her little tummy bulge that happens when you bend her at the abdomen." gee...makes me kind of afraid to buy anything anymore. i did not like the comments about DAZ, but the lies sure sounded good. JDexter- meet sucker #2. sorry you lost your $50.00 bucks:-( i'm glad Anton made others aware. cinnamon

Actually from what I've seen of the renders by the person who is touting her the most the joints are horrid. And these are his own pics. Also if you look at the rest of their stuff on tsquid the quality is terrible. This is really sad for newbies to come here and see...but at least they realize that we try to protect each other from getting ripped off. Also anyone who degrades a product to sell their own is unprofessional and will never get my business. Marque

Oh well, I was ignoring the hype when I got her. I was just wanting another character to work with since I have used all the Daz ones. I was hoping for a challenge to learn how to make skin textures for a model that I hadn't tried before. The worst thing about this is that I was thrilled that I was able to use the P4 versions of some of the hair I bought (the Vicki ones that included P4 settings) with only minor adjustments. I guess if I had ever actually used the P4 woman, I would have had a heads up. But when I started in this, it was January and I bought Poser, Vicki, Mike and Carrara right off the bat as my learning tools, so I really never used anything from the original Poser package, Vicki and Mike (and then Steph) were more than enough to keep me busy learning. I guess Amy has done that now too, because I sure learned something. =( Oh, well, it could have been a whole lot worse than just $50 Excuse me while I go cry on Steph's shoulders (hehe) JDexter P.S. Should I even think about Dina-V or whatever the model is that can use Vicki's clothing?

Brycetech, that 50% thing isn't true, not under US law. It's far more complicated than that.

as to the similarity to posette - im going to try and refrain from commenting on that. yes, some parts (the hands) look so similar its quite damning. but other parts (lower body, torso) are completely different. i think i agree with brycetech's stance on everything. however, the one thing in this thread thats glaringly apparent to me is that anton is taking a little bit too much pleasure in this. and thats quite disturbing, to say the least - especially since there is a serious conflict of interest here.

Has anyone that got Amy actually tried extracting the UVMap from her? Just simply bring it into UVMapper with no changes and see what the map looks like when it comes out. Is it truely stretched over the entire space or is it grouped out like posette?

50% as interpreted by a court of law IS the rule. that 50% is a very tight rope and I assure you that if you take it to court, you will see. And since Im recommenting let me caution everyone here that is making statements to the effect of this being posette. This is an actionable statement if the model is not. If the hands are the only thing that are fully shown to be posette, you are physically incurring monetary damage on an individual or company by defamation. Which, can be taken to court and it would be your responsibility to prove your statement, not their responsibility to prove theirs. I personally would suggest that this be reviewed by the mods here. This is getting into a very actionable string and rosity not locking the thread sets the TOS aside (the part about attacking a party) I do not say it is posette and I dont say it isnt. But I do know the law is not a 'subjective' thing and opinions dont mean crap when you're trying to prove a statement to a judge or court. There is a set standard for the amount of change...and tho you may find 50 people that say it is posette, you can find 50 more that say its less than the required percent. caution my friends... BT

legally, if the mesh is < 50% changed...aint no arguement, you can say 'its mine'<<< Brycetech, with all due respect, a common and incorrect legal myth. No, I am NOT an attorney. However, through my company, I have had an attorney who specializes in copyright, patent and trademark law on retainer for over 20 years. He also happens to be a good friend. This was one of the first myths he ever squashed for me. There have been many, many more over the years. ;-) Take care and be well. casamerica

i again caution be careful on what you say BT

Here is some information directly off the U.S. Copyright Office website, the FAQ section. U.S. Copyright law is also in full compliance with all conditions of the international Berne Conventions: How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission? Under the fair use doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports. There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentages of a work. Whether a particular use qualifies as fair use depends on all the circumstances. See Circular 21 and FL 102. How much do I have to change in order to claim copyright in someone else's work? Only the owner of copyright in a work has the right to prepare, or to authorize someone else to create a new version of that work. Accordingly, you cannot claim copyright to another's work, no matter how much you change it, unless you have the owner's consent. See Circular 14. As brycetech and I discussed and, I think, agreed in an exchange of IMs, there is much, much more to claiming ownership than making alterations. I always follow the rule that my attorney uses - A derivative work is a derivative work. Only the original copyright owner can authorize a derivative work. Take care and be well. casamerica

yep we agreed and the reason, as I said in IM, what I said about the 50% thing is to give people who have made the 'absolute' statements a chance to back out of those statements and save themselves some unnecessary headache. Saying "it's part", or "it may be"---is not the same thing as saying "it is" going back to my corner now to be quiet :)