Not everyone here is a modeller, and very few of us could build a Poser figure from scratch. But no problem, nice ones come with Poser and you can buy more. And there are lots of props available in the marketplace. Likewise, you need special talent to make a good skin texture. But you can buy excellent ones in the marketplace. Other sorts of textures are much easier to do. But you can buy them in the marketplace as well. Hey, you can buy pose sets as well, in case you can't work out how to pose a figure in Poser. If you're really lazy, there are even commercial face sets so you don't have that awful labour of changing the dial that says "smile". Saints preserve us, you can even buy sets of lights if you are really determined to learn nothing about 3D art. So once you have your scene modelled by someone else, textured by someone else, posed by someone else and lit by someone else, all you need to do is hit the render button! But why should you need to do even that? Let's take things to the logical conclusion! For the really lame, we proudly present: PHANTAST ART PRODUCTIONS (PAP). Yes, thanks to PAP you can now buy fully rendered Poser art with the copyright, so you can claim it to be your own work! (Well, you did do something - you pulled out your credit card.) All you have to do is post your new picture to Renderosity with your name on it, and for a small extra charge we'll even do that for you! Choose from these exciting and popular catgories: Vicky with sword Vicky with big sword Nude Vicky with sword Vicky with axe (sorry, sword) Don't delay, order today, and you too can be a Poser artist!

Hey, I order 4 of those.... :) After a good laugh, just some thoughts about it : Is the marketplace wrong? In my opinion, he's not. After all it pays the bills for renderosity. I must admit that the only thing I bought here is the tailor, but here is surely a lot of usefull stuff here. Is a picture not your own art when you just use bought stuff: Maybe. I surely do not care. I make pictures for private use, and maybe I will do a comic sometime. So I do need a lot of stuff, but my pictures are more "functional" ones, not meant as art. So I take what I can get, because I do not have the time to do the models and the textures by myself. And admitted, a lot of things which I saw in the marketplace are in mine opinion overpriced or useless. But hey, everyone can choose for himself where to spend the hard-earned money. And if someone will pay for a prerendered picture - well, I think you will get what you pay for. :)

yawn I'm too lazy to pull out my credit card, can you pay for my pictures before you upload them to the gallery in my name, Phantast? ;-) Seriously speaking, Phantast does raise an issue that has been discussed here before and probably will be discussed again. My own stance on this is that all kinds of art must be evaluated on it's own merits, regardless of the process that was used to make the art. It is the idea behind the artwork that contains the value. It is the message it conveys that makes me appreciate it as art. I can appreciate the pure workmanship as well, but that is another dimension of the artistry. And lets be practical here. I doubt that Michelangelo made the table he used in the painting The Last Supper. He probably bought it. Does that make him a lesser artist?

I admit I can't model/paint/pose/adjust lighting, the only thing I do is take elements from other people's work and put them together in ways that please me, I am learning tho, I recently got my hands on Richard Schrand's great book, I just wish I had more time to play with poser.

I agree with Kelderek, I didn't built my guitars, after 30 years of playing does that mean I,m not an artist? Know matter what tools are used, it's the emmotions that are drawn out that make it art. Tashar 59

When I first started working with 3D graphics I was overwhelmed by all the complexities of modeling, texturing, scene setup, etc. Then I had the good fortune to meet a group of professionals working for a 3D gaming company in Atlanta. They didn't just have a modeler, a texturer, and a render artist. There was one person who did only models of scenery, buildings, etc. One who did models of people. One who did models of creatures. One talented lady who did only models of clothing - well, you get the idea. It made me feel better at the time. By the way, Phantast - I found your post hilarious.

If I go to the store and buy something for me to wear in my work is it wrong because I didn't sew it? Some of us use these models like they were real representitives, not just to create "art" with. If there are some of you that don't think Poser should be used to create "art" why are you here? I get real tired of this thread coming up over and over again. If you think that to buy stuffage for your characters and use it isn't art then you should also not use Poser at all, you should put your wacom pads away and pick up your old set of crayons, inks, pencils, charcoals, paints or whatever and quit using the computer, or at least not start out with a character at all. Get a modeling program and do your own characters and clothing and props and lights. I use what I have to to get MY creations where I want them to go. If I have to buy a prop, so be it. But please don't come in here and expect me to justify myself to you because of the tools I use to create what I want to see. Methinks Phantast protests too much. Marque

Some very good points raised here! "Art is in the eye of the beholder". Sketch something on the back of an envelope and technically it's art, if someone likes it...then good on them! :-) Personally I hate the snobbery that often rears it's head when it comes to discussing people using Poser. (Most of these self-titled experts have never used the program, or have little or no knowledge of it). There are those who would argue that you're not a "true artist" unless you build, texture, pose, light and animate all of your models from scratch, but that's like a traditional artist being expected to grind up pigments to make paint, pull a few hair's from an animal's tail for a brush, and go grow a bowl of fruit! It's nonsense. Art is for EVERYONE, and Poser is just another brilliant, creative "tool". It's what you do with that tool that counts. Dave :-)

Heya all... Speaking as someone that cant model or do textures (but loves to do lighting), I must say the marketplace rocks! I love it. Even if someone does nothing but put the pieces into a scene, I still think that is great and kudos to them for doing that. Not everyone can be a perfect artist. Some of us could be considered directors. That is how I look at myself. This community and market place allows me to direct scenes that are in my head. Something I could NEVER have done before Poser. And to me, my art is still my art. It may be Xena's character with someone elses texture and yet another persons backdrop..but the final outcome is mine. The choice of who I used and why, is mine. So, I make no appologise to those that feel people like myself are hacks or what not..because to me, this is a blast. I love doing it and really dig all the interaction I get with the community. Again, if it was not for the market place, I would have nothing to use in my playtime , except a bunch of plastic looking poser 4 people. I agree with Ron, above, 100%.

Heh, heh....no Vicky with a Big Axe? This is an old debate we've had in the music community for years, the "it's not music it's programmed" deal. As a musician (guitarist, vocalist) I use drum machines, sequencers, and etc, and add my own playing to it. I've not had any complaints from listeners/fans. The end product is what matters to me. In my Poser movies, I tend to use other products instead of making my own. Why? Because it saves me time, and time is precious. Lucas didn't model the X-Wing, he paid someone else to do it. That's how I view it. I'm the director, and the many talented Renderosity artists are the crew I hire to model, texture, etc. I'm a storyteller, not a modeler. Now, I'm not saying I'm lazy, quite the opposite. I do spend a fair amount of time in Photoshop modifying or tweaking textures, and I do create some of my own, even some of my own models. I spend a LOT of time building sets from the models, and stuff like that. And I'm soo grateful for the Marketplace and the great artists who contribute to it. Without them, I couldn't make my movies the way I want them. :)

Why bother with a discussion about what's art and what's not? That's as old as the great masters - debates about whether a new school of art can be considered real 'art' or not. And how madly 'creative' people are when fooling about with Poser, who cares about that either. The main thing is, have fun with it. If you enjoy it as an outlet for creativity, or make money out of it.... fine. Whatever suits you. Or all 3 of course. And what irritates me a LOT more than artiness or level of own creation as opposed to bought, is the level of quality of the finished renders - unfinished poses, crappy lighting, no postwork, no thinking at all. Ugly angles, default figures, corny & kitsch themes, you name it. In other words, the level of CRAFTSMANSHIP in renders that people want us to look at. If it's shoddy, work on it some more first. And some very expereinced and established people here are guilty of this shoddiness too, not only newbies. Jeez, even people selling and promoting! But hey, what me worry.... I'm just havin' fun. :] FishNose

Good point Ron - Poser is a "tool" that enables you to create something personal and unique, to express something, much like a musical instrument does. It enables us to do something easier or more efficiently than we'd perhaps find possible by other means, and appeals to all levels of user. But as most of us have agreed in this thread...it's all about having FUN. Long may it continue. :-) Dave :-)

I think that the choice of tools is up to those creating art. I tend to buy things that I'm either not capable of creating or not able to create well. It's one part "wow" and the other part is that I want to support the merchants. I've bought quite a few hair products in the store and both eye models (Awful and Real). Also I've bought the Tailor. I haven't bought any poses, lights or textures. For one, I haven't had the need to look for them. Secondly, I'm quite capable of doing these things (though the Volumetric Light Cone looks cool). I'm absolutely not knocking ANYONE who creates these things. "I" just don't need them. Just as much as am not against the company who makes "Schnapple" (tm) - I don't care to drink it. Though I believe it is art to create all those things. Regards, Josef

Someone recycles this post about once a month. It's boring...

as has previously been pointed out this debate has been rageing in one form or another for over a thousand years but to put my two cents in, the perfect rebuttle against the create from the ground up argument is Ansel Adams. Who can look at one of his photos and say it is not art. the argument would go that all he did was pick a spot to shoot from and hit the shutter release. but is it realy that simple if it is why are'nt there hundreds of thousands of people out there producing photos of such beuty. all the talent an artist needs is an eye to see things slightly different then anyone else. their ability or lack thereof shouldn't hold them back from creating a satisfying artistic experience, even if they are the only one to understand it.

Let's see, by extension... Since my wife the Caligrapher doesn't cut her own pens, grind her own pigments, and make her own paper (all skills she has mastered, but uses only sparingly, for the sake of time) then her work isn't "art" either. A painter that doesn't stretch his/her own canvas, make his/her own brushes, and mix his/her own paints, doesn't make "art". A sculpter needs to make his own hammers and chisels, abrasives, etc. A 3D model maker should write his/her own modeling program.. Com'on, the "art" is in the final creation. EVERY artist uses some type of building blocks mixed and matched to make their creation! Hasn't this been hashed over enough? mike

And useless, because unless the complainer has modeled, textured, posed and created the meshes they themselves use and post in the gallery from scratch, they just sound silly.

Is using the poser plastic ponytail "Artistic"? Or is it only artistic if you use the plastic hair as a base that's smudged and pushed into something realistic?

And who cares what someone else thinks of what you do? Do what you want, how you want it and what your vision tells you. Anything else wouldn't really be your artwork.

for those of you complaining about this thread, don't read it. I for one enjoy a good debate. and if it comes up so often maybee thats becouse it's of interest to others?

"for those of you complaining about this thread, don't read it. I for one enjoy a good debate. and if it comes up so often maybee thats becouse it's of interest to others? "

It's just as much an interest for those of us who think people, who use textures and models, to complain about people who use textures and models are pretty silly.

Besides don't debates need both sides? If no one wants to hear an objection they should take it to private emails and complain about it there.

Art is not what was used to make it. But what you make out of the tools you have. I'm pretty sure even if someone has every item from the MP, without an creative imagination, all they produce is a bunch of objects set next to each other. Also there are a lot of members here. And the knowledge of poser vary's alot between each member. Beginners need more help than people that's been using poser longer. So the products at MP help these people achieve what they wanted to do, without too much difficulties.

Some people took this way too seriously ... did I say the marketplace was wrong? I spend money there myself, you know. But not on pose sets, you bet.

Hi, Ron said: >If you follow the argument or thoughts, then Poser, and >its supporting companies and community exist for something >that is not art. To which my reply is: "If they're doing it for any other reason than money, the mythical "bottom line" then they're dumber than they look" I'm not an artist, never have been, never will be. But the older I get the more interested I get in money. Not in owning it, spending it, or accumulating it. But the "secret life" of the the thing itself. I watch CNBC I read the FT, and the more I learn, the more I realise that while it's nice to like your job, in business, profit, and growing your market share is all that counts. One of the best ways to do this, is of course to build great products that people want to buy. But neither Renderosity nor Daz or CL exist for our amusement. We pay, they provide. Commerce, not art, (especially commerce driven by us hobbyists) is what all this is here for. Which being a nascent capitalist is an idea I'm happy to embrace. While it continues to pay off, we get to enjoy ourselves, and even those who only buy the program, (some not even that) get to share in the knowledge and "community" that exist around Poser. But in that we are like the creatures that live in thermal vents. If the vent stops, we die. Look at any technology that failed to reach it's potential, be it Betamax, Dreamcast, BeOS, etc. to see what happens when the money dries up. If "Vicky in a temple, naked, with sword/helmet" is a "price" for my fun, so be it. The more people that buy, render and post, the stronger "they" get, the longer we live... Works for me! :) later jb

Phantast - just for the record : being a former commercial illustrator and present systems programmer, I actually CAN do it all from scratch. All the way back to making my own paints and brushes (it's real yucky, messing with pulverized red clay/earth and egg yolk, I can tell you) - and all the way forward to modeling, tex'ing (pathetically, though), posing, lighting, rendering etc. I can even code C++ (which I believe Poser is written in), if I feel masochistic enough. BUT there's one skill I don't have, unfortunately the one I consider the essential one for an artist, whatever an artist is. I can't get ideas! In the spirit of Silver's excellent analogy above, I sometimes feel like an entire film crew w/ actors, cameras, sets etc. ready - we just haven't got a director w/ a script, so all my poor skills are just loitering around the coffee machine, waiting for some creative explosion to happen. So I'd be grateful if we could give the it's-not-art-if-it's-not-all-your-own-stuff discussion a rest, and start a discussion where all the creative people shared the secrets of creativity with us creatively challenged guys and gals.

thip - nowhere am I suggesting it's not art if you don't do everything yourself. At the outset I said very few people can make good figure models and skin textures and no-one should be expected to. But how do we share the secrets of creativity? Not for nothing was creativity attributed to a mysterious disembodied muse who visits you or not as her fancy takes her. Can I share the secret of imagination with you?

I'm a big boy, I'll try everything once ;o)