"obvious that Michelle, Jeff or whoever else don't pay attention to my own request for an extra forum just for 3d party sites that have nothing to do with the store.." Hold up, that's the first time I've heard that mentioned. It's not a bad idea, either. If that's what people want, why not? What exactly would you want it to achieve? Be sort of a neutral area between ads and techie posts? "I also think the radio button is the solution to fix this situation..." That's not bad, either. What would be involved, I wonder? Lemme look into that one.

Radio button would be the BEST solution I guess .. that was a genious idea by Daio! The 3rd party subscription forum would be the less acceptable alternative I guess just for subscription sites and other commercial ones that want to post their previews and links freely but not mixed up with the store stuff as the items do no belong there... A team spirit and graceful solution to keep all happy (either of the above) would be more than welcome by anybody I guess.. if we favor the radio button so much it's simply because it allows all posts to be under the same resource which we were all used to before all the splitting up of various forums.. and.. thanks for listening and even more for start considering seriously! :o) Rena

"Radio button would be the BEST solution I guess .. that was a genious idea by Daio!: You're right, and that was a brilliant idea... thanks, Daio! Now to see what needs to be done...

Erm, not to steal Daoi's thunder but it was originally an idea by X2000 and Daio mirrored an enthusiasm for this idea. You'll find it about half way up with a couple other good ideas mentioned by X2. Posts 54 amd 75 if you want to check. Again, I'm not being funny towards Daio who has my deepest respect, but it's nice to see credit going the right direction when it's shared. :)

Ah! X2000- brilliant! Daio- hey, great minds think alike!

X2000 my deepest apologies! :o) It was hard to keep track of this mess up to 106 posts so far.. to be honest, after all this response I'm glad it was shoveled under the rug into THIS forum..it would be too much to handle by anybody in any other case! I NEVER thought I'd say that! VL grin Rena

Hmm. Didn't quite hear me, eh? I guess I'm getting too subtle in my old age. By God, it used to be that when I said something, people HEARD! OK, they may have flamed me into a black, crumbly mess, but they heard me, damn it. I must be losing my touch. Guess I need to practice more... cue ominous music

Radio button or new forum. Definatly voting for the radio button, but if we have to go forum at least we are still here. If both get turned down I suggest just building a huge wall around this place with razor wire and watch towers. Guards armed to the teeth ready to shot anyone trying to get out will be an effective way to attain the apparent goals of what we are starting to see here.

Rena,

Your interpretation of my private e-mail is very different than what I had to say. I'm not sure why you posted about it here.

Guess it doesn't really matter, I don't mind taking the "blame" for anything.

The owners of this site asked the Moderators to move commercial posts to the showcase areas and that's what will be done.

That's really the only issue here. This is not an effort to squash "competition" and it isn't personal.

Everyone,

The Product Showcase is a place you can go all out with commercial promotions and not have to worry about complaints from those that are here only to learn.

When the store opened here, people said it was the end of the community and commercialism was swallowing up the forums. Hopefully this policy will change that.

Wether a commercial site makes a profit or not isn't a factor in this. We play no favorites.

The Showcase forum gets alot of hits/views, so if you have something to promote and it's what the people want, you'll get results by posting there.

Have a good weekend everyone, and please get away from your computers for a few days :-)

-Jeff

My interpetations Jeff had nothing to do with your email.. all I've used from that is the fact that you said ..I wrote that TOS line.. not a word more or less! Why you did that and what you went through was revealed to me by others who also were close and sympathize with you same as I do! So please read my post with the questions answered once again.. I NEVER said that all that was revealed to me by you but from reliable inside sources! Yes, I have my ends as well.. people who do trust me after all these years I've never bothered or hurt anyone, and do care about me! :o) It was also misinterpeted by the rest of posts by others that only one specific merchant did all the pushing.. wrong! They were more, just one more persistant and not to you but ClintH mostly! You were the one who had to execute orders when things went out of hand! As you see I do know more and I had in mind not to say a word further if you hadn't thought that I imply YOU were the one which is totally wrong! :o) Best thing I guess at this moment is to forget it all and put it behind (I'm good at that myself) and see how things go from now on so less of similar situations ever arouse again in this place! Despite the fact of feeling hurt the last few days of the indifferent way I've been treated in this place after all I've done for its existance, despite the fact I'm no big or important fish to any of you.. I still care about it as it is "home" since the people I love and care about still hang around it! So let's be taught a lesson both and move on... Rena

Can we have a notation of what IS acceptable in the Poser Forum? Are threads asking people to go look at a thread in the Showcase Forum acceptable? Are previews of future items acceptable? What? I'm cerrtain my answers are up there somewhere... but they're BURIED in the hundreds of other posts. Perhaps a FAQ or other guidelines for us?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=589469

Rena Well Denmark is just a very little contry and I'm just one person of 5 mill. people but for what this might be worth. I don't understand what is happening here at Renderosity. It took me a long time to save the money to get a subcription, but in the mean time - I had the great luck to get " free PWFW figure and cloth" announced here beside the updates for PW's subscriptions sites. When I got around to the subscription I was allowed to look at free pages to see what I would get for my money if I joined and even 1/3 of it would had fullfilled my dream to what I considered a bargain prize. Next to that I got support and help whenever its needed in the most understanding way. You and Steve do everything in your power to support and helped out your subscribers and none subcribers if we ask for help and special needs. You listen to peoples wishes and are amongst the most decent people that I ever meet in the Poser University. I don't usally go in to the forums but I honestly believe that one of the reason this kind of things is happening is your NON "Merchant" way of acting and treat people. For some it hurt a lot to see other been able to succeed what they cant do themselves. For the reason of all us who is overwhelmed by our membership of PW and all of us who weekly gets beautiful free stuff from PWFW. Please continue to make this community a better place Krystalmoon

Oops, I had no intention of stealling X2000's thunder. I was just repeating his suggestion but my wording did not make that very clear. All the credit goes to X2000 for that great idea.

Eh, don't worry about it Daio, there's plenty more thunder where that came from. But try stealing my DOUGHNUTS and you'll be in BIIIIIG trouble...;)

Does it matter at all what =we= want??? Who gives a rat's behind if some people feel offended by the imagined threat of PWFW! It seems clear that the majority of us wants these announcements, and right wh ere they always were. In the Forum. But hey, I forgot, if it doesn't make BIG bucks for this place, can it! And silence those who protest while you are at it. They don't need us, folks, can't you see that? So let's just leave them alone and all these decision-makers can talk to themselves happily ever after... This is not a nice place anymore. Yes, I am in a stinky mood right now, it seems every time I turn around, more friends have left the building! Destiny, Syyd, Rena, so many more.

Guys...relax! :o) As I said, where there's a will..there is a way if you give it a second thought! My latest preview IS up in the Poser Forum as always, right? :o) Well.. formatted differently than usual - I agree, but still at the place where all of you used to read and find out about them! VL grin I think Micheleh is seriously considering the "commercial" radio button.. that would solve dozens of problems for all and help all poser stuff stay gathered up! So let's calm down and wait for a while to see how this go.. I'm always willing to give somebody the benefit of the doubt and some time to sort things out once the problem has been explored so extensively as in this thread.. so fingers crossed! :o) About leaving.. that so many of you suggested in IM and private emails, NO.. desertion is not the solution to me! Even though there are lots of other places to post with no problem as so many of you suggested... I've been taught by my dad how to fight for what I stand for instead of being a coward, shrink my shoulders and walk away!This case wouldn't be an exception! You leave only when you're 100% sure that NONE listens or cares.. doesn't seem to me as this being the case over here.. at least so far! :o) So let's hold our breaths for a while.. see how it goes and work all together with constructive suggestions like X2000's and Daio's to make this place exactly what we'd wish it to be.. because commercial or non commercial it's still one that can't exist without Poser users.. and I think they do know that, same as all the rest of us! :o) Rena

Spoken like a champ Rena. Glad to see you'll be sticking around. :) FWIW: I think you're right about not leaving. It's a helluva lot easier to walk away than it is to stick around and get your problems dealt with. It's also a lot less rewarding, and does nothing to improve the community. Just my .02. Paul *8^>

On a side note: Is this thread REALLY 120 posts long? Wowsers! *8^>

Yeah, long thread, but we hashed out a few things. Possibly came to an agreement and everything seems to have died down now. Sometimes the staff does things and doesn't explain themselves when asked to. As members it is our duty to keep asking. Sometimes the members go much to far. The staff then has the duty to either shut them up or appease them. In this case, I actually commend jeffh for not going ballistic and temp banning the few of us that were the most outspoken. He could have easily done so, but that would have been simply running away and would have compounded the problems. Instead he stuck it out, responded shortly at times, but allowed us to say our peace. In the end, I think we all understand each other a bit better.

Exactly. And I really think things will be better fo that. 8]

I'm confused by this, is it only if the link goes directly to a store or a subscription sign-up page? because I always post 3-D Arena contest news in various forums and am now unsure if that is allowed here (beginning to feel very unwelcome in this place that helped me to learn and grow ~sigh~) I never post a link to the store - but on the other hand several months ago you refused to allow those whose files I host to link to their freebies page from the free section and instead wanted them to direct link - which I don't allow. These links weren't to the store but to the freebies area and these contributors were unable to offer their files any other way. So colour me confused as it gets harder and harder to distinguish what is allowed here and what isn't. I don't want to go against the rules - nor am I going to comment on them - this isn't my site and it certainly isn't how I would handle things - but I will respect the rules until such time I find them intolerable and then I simply won't come back. No big deal - just need to know "exacty" what they are - because I'm sensing that it is no outside linking except to those webring sites or DAZ.

Well, if it's ok to link to freestuff items, then I don't see why it would be so wrong for you to link to freestuff at the Arena. I mean, it's not like it's a hotlink con to pop up porn banners, online casinos and a store. Freestuff is freestuff. It seems from the way Jeff repeated things that it's "no product pages" "no subscription login pages". Freestuff is ok, like Runtime DNA freestuff and Poserworld freestuff. So Arena freestuff, by that logic should also be ok. Heck people link to 3dc freestuff in the forums here sometimes because people like Maclean don't post here. Of course, I've been wrong before, so maybe I'm wrong again. Only the PTB knows the answer...

no it's not ok questor, they were linking to their "pages" that held their freestuff and were told to remove the linksor 'rosity would remove them. I'm just confused as to what is allowed here and what isn't anymore...

I understood the complaint was to remove commercial links not freestuff links. The reason I assume this is in Jeff's example above. Post 47 where the acceptable post from Poserworld was directly to the freestuff pages. Not the home page. But the unacceptable one had a link to the login page for subscribers and was "blatantly commercial" or something like that. So, if www.sitename.com/free/freestuff.asp is ok as Jeff has said, then there's no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to post a link to www.LSMsite/freebies/index.php Same thing isn't it? A freebie area for people to download freebies. I can see the confusion LadyMage having read through the thread linked to by Ironbear, but Jeff has said that freestuff links are ok. Just not links to "product" pages. I don't recall seeing product or vendor sales on your freebie area, therefore it's allowed. smile Of course, the PTB will have to speak to confirm this as I am merely a noisy person with no life. G But that's how it reads above.

This is exactly why it is so confusing - because this did happen already and was brought up in the old C & D forum, by the artist who was told the link would be removed, when it happened. (ironbear has also linked the thread above that was not in C&D) At the time it was stated that linking to competitor's site for free items wasn't allowed. I don't mind - it's just that the rules never seem to be set in stone - they change constantly and everytime one gets used to them - they change again. As for "Wether a commercial site makes a profit or not isn't a factor in this. We play no favorites" I don't buy that either (but then I don't have to), I know of at least one case where one of our vendors was approached by 'rosity staff privately in regards to why that vendor chose to be a part of 3-D Arena. I have never seen the email in question - but I fully believe the vendor who told me. But the real point is the confusion this creates - So are links ok to sites with stores or subscriptions as long as they aren't to the mall? If so then has the rule regarding the linking to their own free stuff by artists I host changed as well? Or is no linking allowed to sites with sales so therefore I can't link contest news here? I have a feeling that if I posted large images of my newesst products available only at 3-D Arena (I have 3 coming out soon FYI) ind the showcase forum, that they would be pulled or disallowed in the future. As for "Wether a commercial site makes a profit or not isn't a factor in this. We play no favorites" I don't buy that either (but then I don't have to) because I know of at least one of our vendors who was approached by 'rosity staff in regards to why that vendor chose to sell at 3-D Arena after having left 'rosity's marketplace (didn't come to us immediately either). Specifically to insure that I didn't spend my time here trying to encourage vendors to leave 'rosity for us. The amazing thing is that I am ~always~ up front with vendors and will always tell them their sales with us won't equal the sales they could make here. People leave here and go elsewhere based solely on their own perceptions of this place. I have seen those who leave here or who hang out elsewhere referred to as sheep when in reality the sheep mentality is that which sees unfairness and an unequality and insists on following it anyhow, because to do otherwise involves a change habits and mentality that is too much trouble.

I tend to agree with everything you say, but obviously from my own perspective and experience of people who have left this site. I figure sooner or later someone from the staff who's allowed to answer your questions will turn up and answer them. I'd be curious to see the answer if it differs from above and if not, then what the reasons are that you and your artists can't link from here. Direct links to freestuff is obviously not a requirement anymore because of the huge number of free sites that don't allow it and the large number of Angelfire, Geocities and other links in freestuff here. I don't entirely understand the competition ruling to be honest as most of the vendors here also market in other stores, it only makes sense to do so to get the greatest coverage. But commerce shouldn't be a "you can't do it" rule, that's kinda self defeating. Better to allow a little freedom and promote unity and co-operation than segregation and isolation. shrug It is confusing, yes. We can but wait for an answer, and make noise until someone realises the thred is still active, it should be interesting.

Good morning! (Yes, I sleep late) ;] Okay, let me see if I can adress things. Now, remember, policy is never set in stone, and can be changed if people express that there is a need to do so. We are never not "allowed" to speak of anything to anyone- we are trying to work out the best way to do this so everyone can have what they want with the least amount of inconvenience. So far, the popular vote here seems to indicate the feasiability of "flags" to mark sale and advert items, for two reasons- one, folks who don't like to see them can easily screen them, and two, people who post the adverts,links to sales, and so-on will not feel ostracised from their "home" area. Is this right? I am going to see where things stand now. I haven't checked yet, I wanted to say something here right away. I'll be back soon. 8]

That seems to be the popular vote Micheleh, yes, might even be popular with the vendors as they can then return to the place where their customers chat, work and play. :) If you could check on the questions by LSM as well please, as this has more reaching implications for other people who might follow her example in the future, such as the current mall and forum mentioned so subtly above by a certain lady (28) and others that might be in the planning or dream stages.

I think flags would be great too. So many of us are stuck on a dial-up (I would go to DSL in a second if it were available) so it often takes me quite a looooooong time to browse through forums and pick and choose topics. it would be much easier if they were all in one place with a flag to tell me what is what. But then again, if I see something over advertised I'm less likely to buy it.

"If you could check on the questions by LSM as well please, as this has more reaching implications for other people who might follow her example in the future, such as the current mall and forum mentioned so subtly above by a certain lady..." Lemme look. Ah! Well, I do think the active membership is quite a bit higher than 5%, but that's neither here nor there. They have a nice site, as well, as do many others. I think if one thinks of the good of the artist, then it is a benefit for them to have as many sites to frequent as possiblle. LadySilverMage- a large number of complaints occured when people would click on a link which would lead to a page saying "this page is only available to members", who are them understandably irritable. ************************************************************ 1) So are links ok to sites with stores or subscriptions as long as they aren't to the mall? If so then has the rule regarding the linking to their own free stuff by artists I host changed as well? 2) Or is no linking allowed to sites with sales so therefore I can't link contest news here? 3) I have a feeling that if I posted large images of my newest products available only at 3-D Arena (I have 3 coming out soon FYI) ind the showcase forum, that they would be pulled or disallowed in the future? 4) I know of at least one case where one of our vendors was approached by 'rosity staff privately in regards to why that vendor chose to be a part of 3-D Arena? ************************************************************ These questions? I have a list. I go for answers. I shall return!

We are working on clearing this up right now, Please give us a few days to get it worked out.

You know, it all would be so much easier if everyone just acknowledged that everything (TOS changes) being done is because of competition for buyers' money.

Tim, the owner/president/director of this site has already said so in one of his few posts.

To paraphrase:

We are a business and not ashamed to be making money.

All this pussy footing around creates needless confusion and hurt feelings.

If mods could acknowledge this and behave correspondingly and stop sending out mixed signals, and if members would also stop expecting this business to cater to non profit excercises as their highest priority, this would also create less headaches.

So once everyone knows where they stand, then they can behave correspondingly. :)

Much as the oldtimers pine for the good old days and us newbies wish we could have seen how it was, it's best to accept how things are now and do what it takes or go where we can to find our rightful place.

Goodluck Rena, hope the wrists feel better, feel free to contact me if you find any use for my offer. :)

Too bad April. New sites and alternatives aren't going to go away... they're going to continue to flourish and new ones are going to spring up. Cut-thrat competition between them is short sighted, and it's not going to help anyone's bottom line - especially if the end result is a loss of goodwill and customer [read: "member"] dissatisfaction. I like Renderosity, but this place isn't invulnerable to that. Hasn't been an island on the net in a long time. And in the long run, the "we make money, screw them" attitude will hurt everyone if members get tired of it and decide to blow off the 3D communities completely as a bunch of competition oriented combatants instead of a resource.

segued to IB: Yes... Just cos rosity treats the other sites as competition doesn't mean the other sites feel the same about rosity. And those sites without that competition orientation maybe just the place for those who don't like living with it here. The growth of apathy among former loyalists is something rosity is willing to wear. As for those who haven't grown thick skinned enough to develop this apathy... remember, resistance is futile. ;)

April- Paraphrase, btw, means to put in your own words. It would be more fair to post a direct quote, you know.

Sure but C&D got deleted afaik. :) It was a reply to Poppi or LadySilverMage, I can't remember which. One of them was asking either who owns this place and/or what is the purpose of this place. Since I hardly ever see Tim post, the reply kinda stuck in my mind. It was quite simply put and the "paraphrasing" should be quite close down to the word count, no need for interpretation. If an admin could do a query on ForumID=12360 posts looking for "tim" and "not ashamed" it should turn up.

I'll check, thanks. (Did you have to do that to the background? I have my whole screen nice and black, and there that is- the Red Alert!) ;]

my fave colour on screen. i was being silly. last time i do that. looks embarassing now... hehe slinks away

"But I don't see subscription sites as "commerical" because they (well, PoserWorld at any rate, and I'm sure others, too) don't "cash in" on the profits. Their subscription fees go to bandwidth, not to a tri-level home in the country with a Porsche in the driveway..." OK. This post is so long, I've forgotten who originally posted this statement, but I have a question to bring up in that regard. Just exactly how do you determine who's "cashing in" on the profits and who's not? All the various subscription and non-subscription sites are not going to open their books to the public, so it's just a guess or what they themselves say. Now we can pretty well GUESS that rosity is taking in a good amount of money. And we can GUESS that they are probably making a fairly healthy profit. But we can't KNOW that. We don't KNOW what their operating costs are. There's more to running sites of this scope than bandwidth. I am a merchant here. I know what I make. I also run a website with a store that is built on a similar model to rosity. I can tell you, I don't live in a tri-level house. I don't own a Porsche. I'm not getting rich doing this. In fact, I'm just now getting to the point where I'm covering costs. But even if I were getting rich, is that anyone's business but mine? Why is it that the word commercial seems to be so hated? If it wasn't for commercialism, none of you would have Poser to play with. And while there are many very generous folks in this community who donate an incredible amount of their time to support it and even pay the bandwidth costs of sharing their stuff, some of us work full time at this to bring you these sites and we'd like to be able to survive and pay the people we need to help us do this. I'm not getting into whether or not rosity is right or wrong in doing what they are doing here with the product showcase forum and gallery or even whether or not PWFW should be exempt from the commercial posts rule. I just wanted to know how anyone thinks they could possibly accurately judge who's making a "profit" and who's not.

Geesh, hasn't the powers that be at Renderosity ever seen Miracle on 34th Street? The part where Macy's santa sent the people out to Gimbel's when they didn't have a product, only to have the people come back to Macy's in appreciation. Yes, it's a movie, but it's a sound business practice and in this type of a community, it's even more sound. Renderosity, we are artists. Those that buy from the marketplace are looking to create a certain artwork from those products. That means that such products have to match the vision. You don't have a product to match every vision. Neither does Daz, Poserworld, RuntimeDNA, etc, etc, etc. Together, however, you all create a very rich and diverse selection and while Renderosity may not get every sale, it's the goodwill that comes from a member who got what they wanted and learned it on Renderosity that will keep people coming back. Are you in that deep a financial hole that such good will costs you so much in the long run? I subscribe to Poserworld and I love to see the updates to their site and I support Steve and Rena on this fight. It's a really big sandbox and Renderosity needs to play nice if they are to keep the community and the loyalty that they depend on to bring in the people. There are very few web entities that can claim large communities based on a store. 'rosity has a very rare thing going here, one that they should respect, not destroy. After all, what good is the store if no one comes to the site. And as far as Daz getting away with it, even they have to offer some free stuff, and without ads from here, they'd probably be pretty quiet. My 2cents...

PS: I also buy a lot in the store, so where does that fit in to your calculation?

Rena qoute: "Let's face it, others may not dare say so but I will- it's the best & oldest who've survived successfully in becoming merchants around this place since Jack Krammer brought the plague of commercialism over us (also WITHOUT asking but with YOUR full blessings)!" Rena, First of all, it is Jack KAMMERER... and to inform you, I was NOT the first person to bring commercialism over to the Community. Zygote and BBAY.COM brought commercialized products to the Community LONG before I did. I only brought the Commercialism to Renderosity, and despite how frustrating that is to some, allot of members of the Community have been profiting because of it. Including both you and Steve Shanks. Whether it is for site costs or whatnot, you are still considered COMMERCIALIZED by selling products. You are upset that this web site which used to be an utopia for Poser Members is going down the tubes. GUESS WHAT it IS NOT because me bringing COMMERCIALIZATION to this place... it IS BECAUSE IT IS POORLY MANAGED!! I've made my share of mistakes in regards to this Community in the past, but I will be DAMNED if I take anyone's shit for the way this site is currently ran and the members are treated. Renderotica has it's own store that I brought to it and that place doesn't have the problems this place has... so it isn't the store! Just so that we are clear on that! Jack

Well, I can tell you this. I have yet to make over a dollar an hour. Also, all us nuts who are working Dragoncon are paying our own way. I'm not the accountant, but if you directly compared the proportion of income to expense, I'd bet the porsche I don't have that the smaller forums have more profit margin than we do.

Oh one other thing... your side comment saying: "(also WITHOUT asking but with YOUR full blessings)" What the hell is that supposed to mean? Hmmm? Are you saying that Edgenet had no clue about the store before we opened it? Guess what, THEY KNEW. In fact it was the major reason why I was accepted into the role of running this place. Heck they encouraged it and was ALL FOR THAT IDEA, if they weren't there still wouldn't be a store here. NOW, now if you mean that YOU the MEMBERS were unaware of a store being placed on this site... well, sorry, I guess that is too bad. Considering at the time it was both mine and Edgenet's web site to begin with, I wasn't aware that we were required to check in with you to get your permission. You wanted to pay it's bills? Hell, I have an idea!! Let's do what you do, let's make the site a pay subscription site. So that EVERYONE will have to pay $10 a month to cover the costs and operations of this site. I can't believe that you sit there and bellyache about the store here. Yet, you have a much SMALLER site and you have to charge to cover your costs... imagine what it costs sites like these that are LARGER and FREE. Before you start hashing crap out, get it right. I am sick of getting shit from people like you who have to piss and moan about every little thing because it doesn't fit your primadonna viewpoints... don't like it? Then leave. If you don't want to leave, then don't stick your finger at me and be quiet! Jack

Gee I wonder if DAZ would be so nice as Renderosity is, to allow me to go over to their site and advertise for FREE over there... LOL... like that would happen. Yeah, would be nice if the world was free, but it isn't. Maybe Renderosity should charge those that don't have product in THEIR store to advertise on their site... Jack

Okay, before this gets fired up again I'm going to shut it down.

No more fighting please :-)

-Jeff