I just got an e-mail - Klev32 type from "Tuesday" a member here. Watch your virus scanners folkes. ~EA

ewwwww...that's a nasty one too..okay, will do EA, thanks for the heads up!!

Pendy

What's the KLEV virus do?

hmmm....Mcafee and Symantec both have nothing on KLEV they list very old KIEV virus. infects .com files, do damage.

Are yo sure you aren't referring to the klez32?

Yawn, it sounds more like maybe "Tuesday" caught the Klez virus and it was spread to you via Outlook Express without Tuesday's knowledge. The tip of the day from slashdot.org is that viruses only infect Windows OS and travel via Outlook Express. If you don't use Windows or Outlook you are completely safe. Hmmm...sounds like a definate plug for Macs. I know you guys love your PC's, but they are like cars with no doorlocks with the keys welded into the ignition. Anyone with a little knowledge and nerve can take them for a ride. If I owned a PC I would be screaming bloody murder at Microsoft for allowing viruses such a free reign, but then they sell anti-virus software don't they??? Hmmm...

nope, if its from Slashdot its a plug for Linux, not Macs!

Well, Alleycat, why make a virus that only targets like 10% or less of the worlds computers...Since just about EVERYTHING runs windows, makes sense that if you wanna do damage, windows is what you target. Besides, it's much easier to break a window than a penguin

Not to mention you wont have PETA on your ass if you break the window...

Attached Link: http://www.wired.com/news/infostructure/0,1377,36194,00.html

WyldeSnake wrote: "Well, Alleycat, why make a virus that only targets like 10% or less of the worlds computers...Since just about EVERYTHING runs windows, makes sense that if you wanna do damage, windows is what you target." Music to my ears man. I could not have written a better ad for switching to Mac if I tried. The fact of the matter is that Windows and Outlook are wide open for hacking. Any child can hack a PC (and they often do). Hacking into a Mac network is much more difficult affair than hacking into a PC network. Besides that, MOST business programs are available for Mac OS these days so the old argument about "no software is available for Macs" no longer holds water. Even Linux and Unix users are better off than Windows users when it comes to security. I find it hard to believe that Microsoft can't fix these gaping security holes. I think they make more money by allowing their software to be hacked so that they can keep selling "security and functionality upgrades" every six months. Think about it, they have you by the short hairs don't they? Most PC users are just too lazy to switch to something better IMHO. PC's with Windows, which is hard enough to understand, so the thought of the headache of changing anything is too much to deal with for most people. In short, Windows is not the "Be all and end all" of OS's just because it is the most widely used. It is clunky, the user interface is ugly and artless (like it was designed by someone with no imagination), it's hard to navigate and it's always a freaking nightmare to install or 'uninstall' any kind of software, let alone a web browser or OS. I'm sure more people drive "Yugos" than drive "Porsches" worldwide too, but given the option for only a few dollars more, I'd take the Porsche every time. That's a no brainer. ;-)

Windows without Outlook is pretty safe, though. I never install it, and I've never had a virus.

Windows (NT flavours, not 9x) with proper security patches is pretty safe too. As is outlook; if you're careful to lock doors and do safety checks on a regular basis. Wyldesnake is right in identifying the logic of erm, "marketing" towards the masses as opposed to the few. I think there would be just as many security flaws found in all OS's if they too were more popular. Window's takes a lot of bashing but one thing it did that no other OS manufacturer has ever been able to do is make a GUI that the average Non-geek can use. Geek being the artistic or techie type. I feel that all OS's have their place and their uses. One day perhaps we will see a whole new creation that tops all that we have now.

Window's takes a lot of bashing but one thing it did that no other OS manufacturer has ever been able to do is make a GUI that the average Non-geek can use. WRONG!!!! windows 95, first gui M$ offered, directly stolen from apple, the original MAC interface win3.1 and 3.11 wrer text boxes over dos, not a gui. alleycat, don't forget two small points, mac os has always been unix based, and osx is a variation of linux.

win 3.x was just text box no real graphics in them gui = graphic user interface all it did was play around with the screen colours and draw boxes around sets of lists. one friend of mine duplicated win3.x with his autoexec.bat file only. no using windows at all, but if you didn't know that you would have thought you were in win 3.x and in 90 whatever that win95 was released, they managed to dupilcate, barely, mac's original interface. mac came out in very early 80's I know was newst apple computer when I was looking at it in 82.

Ok, you're right Jaqui, I phrased that entirely incorrectly. I agree that MAC had developed the first truly easy to use GUI. (Amiga I think had one before but not as user friendly). They just didn't have the marketing hutsba to reach the home user market, the one that truly makes the make-it/break-it differnce; windows 9x series did. And actually, win95/98 were also built over DOS which is a quickie knock=off of CP/M. Only the NT series is not. MAC prior to OS/X has always been an apple based OS. OS/X is BSD (read UNIX) based, not Linux. CP/M and UNIX are both based on POSIX.

Alleycat169 wrote: The tip of the day from slashdot.org is that viruses only infect Windows OS and travel via Outlook Express. If you don't use Windows or Outlook you are completely safe. Hmmm...sounds like a definate plug for Macs. Sounds more like a plug not to use Outlook. If my car has a dent in it, I wouldn't go out and buy a new car (I wish! :). I'd repair the dent... Alletycat169 wrote: I know you guys love your PC's, but they are like cars with no doorlocks with the keys welded into the ignition. Anyone with a little knowledge and nerve can take them for a ride. Anyone virus author with the will and the knowledge can write viruses for virtually any OS. As Wyldesnake has stated, the Windows platform is a dominant OS on the planet and therefore, by volume, it would have the most viruses written for it. If all the PC users in the world suddently switched over to Mac, the virus authors will simply go where the action is and start working out Mac viruses. It's like being a celebrity. The more famous and popular you are, the more people will try to dig up dirt on you to use against you. I hear that with the new UNIX core of OS X, the Mac will be more vulnerable to hackers and viruses than with its previous operating systems. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't stop using your Mac, and scoff at the suggestion that you do, just because you could be running into more viruses. The solution would be just to take precautions and exercise a bit of common sense. That tends to be beneficial regardless of what platform you run.

Since we are discussing the PC vs Mac issue: Why are graphics and other artistic applications so much more expensive for Macs than for PC? Sometimes as much as three times the cost for the Mac version of the exact same program? This was the case last I checked. It doesn't give me much incentive to run out and buy a Mac. I had considered it until I realised how much more it would cost me in software.

Well, I imagine picing also has to do with the size of market share each company has to sell to. Also, MACs are more prevalent within business (Graphics and Printing) than they are in homes. I would think that has something to do with it too Momcat :) You know, soon it won't matter what OS is used. A virus has already been created that lives and spreads within jpg's. It's too bad there is always so much discussion on OS's and not more action on the virus creators. :(

The GUI was actually invented by Xerox, who allowed Apple to develop it further. Apple did not steal it from Xerox, in fact they were later compensated for it. Bill Gates and Steve Balmer (then a budding Microsoft) had bought a clunky OS for 50K from a guy in Seattle (it was called DOS). They were also doing some work developing apps for Apple. When Steve Jobs made the mistake of showing the new Macintosh OS, Gates promptly stole the idea and created "Windows". The rest is history. Gates and Balmer were devoid of any moral conscience about stealing from someone who had given them work. They released a cheaper, clunkier, uglier GUI that worked on cheap, foreign made beige boxes from Taiwan. Apple on the other hand released their OWN (American made) machine with their OWN OS. Is it any wonder that Macs cost more? They are better built machines with a native OS, something that no cheap PC is. Microsoft does not make machines, just software. So comparing the market share is not really an accurate assessment of the strength of the product. Microsoft software, from the start has been bug ridden and full of problems. The way they tie everything into their OS is ludicrous. Especially the lamest of attempts to destroy Netscape by linking MS IE into Windows and claiming that it couldn't be uninstalled. Please, how stupid do you have to be to buy that one? I'm not saying that Mac OS's are without their own problems, but every version of Windows has had major problems associated with it. Not to mention that upgrading Windows also means that you have to upgrade most of your Apps with it or they won't work on the new OS. So in the long run you are paying MORE for your Windows based Apps than Mac based ones because you don't need to buy an App upgrade when you upgrade your Mac OS. Apple has never been indicted or tried by the Federal Government for trying to stifle competion illegally. In my eyes Gates and Balmer are just as bad as Ken Lay of Enron. Any dirty deal under the table is legit to them as long as it makes them a buck. I can't support a company like that, I don't own any MS software nor would I ever use any form of Windows. Even without viruses Windows would still be the clunkier, uglier alternative. Mac OS is still the easiest for Non-Geeks to use. I am completely self taught, never took a class. I bought a Mac and was using it the same day. My brother on the other hand, needed to take a class to figure out how to use his 'inexpensive' PC with Windows 2000. Tack the cost of computer classes, video card, and other add ons onto the list price and stock Macs come out about even costwise.

Attached Link: http://www.itd.umich.edu/virusbusters/hoaxes/perrin.html

"A virus has already been created that lives and spreads within jpg's." Man, what does it take to get this through to people? THE PERRIN VIRUS IS A HOAX!!!

Yes, but the Perrun (note Perrun not Perrin) virus isn't. It's only a proof of concept at the moment, but it is real.

Attached Link: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.perrun.html

Well, until I actually see one myself I am not one to believe any virus warnings from anti-virus software manufacturers anymore. But I did do a quick search and found more hits suggesting it was real than a hoax. The funny thing is that Symantec's own data indicates it ONLY affects Windows and it's variants. Macs, Linux and Unix systems are immune to this virus. Like any virus though it has to be manually opened by someone stupid enough to open a strange jpg file in Outlook and Windows. All the anti-virus protection in the world won't save your network from one person like that. Face it guys, PC or no, Windows has got to go for the sake of the internet. ;-) Variants: W32.Perrun.dr Type: Virus Infection Length: 11,780 bytes Systems Affected: Windows 3.x, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows NT, Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Me Systems Not Affected: Macintosh, Unix, Linux

"Gates and Balmer were devoid of any moral conscience about stealing from someone who had given them work." Interesting side note, concerning psycology and tendency, re the exhaustive legal restrictions by Mirosoft: most people tend to have as their greatest fear that which they are most apt to do. In situations like that, you sort of have to have thie kind of mind that thinks "why wouldn't the users do X? I would."

Alleycat169 wrote: Gates and Balmer were devoid of any moral conscience about stealing from someone who had given them work. They released a cheaper, clunkier, uglier GUI that worked on cheap, foreign made beige boxes from Taiwan. [etc etc...] I'm certainly not disagreeing with anything that was said and a lot of it rings true but I think this topic is beginning to mutate into something that really shouldn't be in this particular forum. Maybe we should slow it down, shut it off before the mods step in?

"Maybe we should slow it down, shut it off before the mods step in?" Uhmm...why? Is it against the Renderosity TOS to discuss Bill Gates and Steve Balmer? Is it against the TOS to point out that the proliferation of email viruses is largely the fault of Microsoft for creating such an easy OS and email system to hack? This is not a Mac vs. PC flame war. We are discussing viruses and how they are spread. To be blunt nukem, it is impossible to have an interesting conversation without straying off topic from time to time. Or would you prefer this thread to be like this: "I just got an e-mail - Klev32 type from "Tuesday" a member here. Watch your virus scanners folkes." "Yes, be careful of that" "Yes, be careful" "You're absolutely right, be careful of viruses" "It's good you posted this, I agree completely, viruses are bad" ???????????????????????????????????????????????? Nukem, in conversation, discord, disagreement and comparisons are allowed and encouraged. No one is shouting, no one is insulting anyone. Maybe this thread should move to the OT forum, but I can't see any reason to 'shut it off'. I'm just curious why you would suggest that?

Alleycat169 wrote: Uhmm...why? Is it against the Renderosity TOS to discuss Bill Gates and Steve Balmer? Is it against the TOS to point out that the proliferation of email viruses is... [SNIP---8<---] No but it is off topic for this forum. I thought it would be best if we moved the topic ourselves instead of forcing a moderator to do it for us. Alleycat169 wrote: To be blunt nukem, it is impossible to have an interesting conversation without straying off topic from time to time. Or would you prefer this thread to be like this: [SNIP---8<---] Be mindful of your tone, Alleycat169. That bit of sarcasm was unwarranted and unappreciated. Alleycat169 wrote: Nukem, in conversation, discord, disagreement and comparisons are allowed and encouraged. No one is shouting, no one is insulting anyone. Maybe this thread should move to the OT forum, but I can't see any reason to 'shut it off'. I'm just curious why you would suggest that? My suggestion was that we shut it off in this forum. Moving it was what I had in mind, not stopping it. My bad for not making that more clear--- I was multi-tasking at the time and the mind was two steps ahead of the fingers.

nukem wrote: "Be mindful of your tone, Alleycat169. That bit of sarcasm was unwarranted and unappreciated." Uhmm...excuse me, but are you the moderator here? Be mindful of my tone? Sarcasm? Oh man are you way off base on this. First you tell us to move the thread, now you're trying to tell me what to say and how to say it? To top it off you micro-analyze everything I say and spit it back to me as italicized quotes? What's next? Gonna request that I be banned because I offended you? I think you need to relax a bit and let people be themselves. No one is hurting anyone here. We're having a discussion, and when that no longer becomes interesting it will die by itself. Not every thread around here needs to end by being locked. I think you are just tired of hearing how your PC can get this virus and any Joe with a Mac, Unix or Linux can't. Don't get upset about it, if you don't have anything else to add then don't. No one will think any less of you. No one is forcing anyone to keep posting. We're still discussing viruses and that is ON topic for this thread. Peace. ;-)

Alleycat169 wrote: Oh man are you way off base on this. First you tell us to move the thread, now you're trying to tell me what to say and how to say it? I haven't "told" anyone to move this thread. I suggested that we move it. Try reading my message again. Not only did I use the word "maybe" but I phrased it in the form of a question. Hardly the "decisive order" you are trying to make it look like. As for trying to tell you what to say and how to say it--- as the intended recipient of that message (the second party in that exchange), I'm within my bounds to tell you if I don't like what you are saying to me and how you say it--- unless this has somehow become a one-way "discussion" where I'm supposed to just sit back and take whatever you say and however it is said to me on the chin. I thought I'd use "Be mindful of your tone" because I thought it sounded less adversarial (it does so when a Jedi says it anyway :) rather than saying "Hey, watch it..." or some other equally terse phrase. After re-reading it, I see that it wasn't a good alternative as it sounds arrogant. My mistake for choosing that phrase--- but considering you've taken up issue with something as benign as my formatted quoting, I probably would have gotten some flak one thing or another--- might as well be for this. Alleycat169 wrote: Uhmm...excuse me, but are you the moderator here? Be mindful of my tone? Sarcasm? Nope, not a moderator... Not trying to be one either and I think that's clear. And yeah. Sarcasm. ...the rhetorical question, that over-simplified example of a thread (double-spaced even!) and all those question marks? I think it's pretty clear. Alleycat169 wrote:To top it off you micro-analyze everything I say and spit it back to me as italicized quotes? I'm quoting you to frame my reply within the right context. What's so wrong about that? Afraid something you said might come back and bite you in the butt? In the longer threads with meandering topics, I see a particular message (not necessarily the one that started the thread) which has me scrolling around trying finding the original message so I could get a better sense of the discussion. Granted, this thread isn't very long (yet) but I prefer to be consistent. As for the formatting, I just think it makes the quoted text stand out a bit more from the rest of the message body. Alleycat169 wrote:I think you are just tired of hearing how your PC can get this virus and any Joe with a Mac, Unix or Linux can't. You think I've gotten upset over that?! LOL! On the contrary, hearing about how the latest virus can infect your computer is welcome news by any computer user regardless of the operating system. I'm pretty sure you'd be interested in getting the scoop on how a newly spawned Mac virus gets around--- as rare as that event may be. The only difference is that PC users get the monthly subscription when it comes to virus news and other platforms get the quarterly. :) Well, shout it from the rooftops, pass out pamphlets if it'll make you feel better. It doesn't bother me how many times you or anyone else says it. It's just the simple truth about the reality of computing on a PC. Quite frankly, some users need to be told about the dangers repeatedly, such as those that don't run virus scanners, stay on top of security updates, blindly click on those attachments or who generally don't take computer security as seriously as they should.

STOP! with the QUOTING ALREADY! Geez man can't you have a simple conversation without quoting me in italics?????? I can't tell you how annoying that is! Do you do that to people while you are talking too? nukem wrote: "beginning to mutate" Well I could tell you were looking a little peekid. nukem wrote: "Well, shout it from the rooftops" You're that proud of it huh? Good for you! nukem wrote: "I haven't "told" anyone to move this thread." Hmmm that's funny. nukem wrote: "Quite frankly, some users need to be told" Well obviously you think so. nukem wrote: "It's just the simple truth about the reality of computing on a PC." EXACTLY WHY IT IS BETTER TO OWN A MAC! Do you see how annoying it is to have 'snippets' of what you said recycled, processed and spit back at you out of context with your name on it ?(like you'd forget you said it?) If you are trying to be petty and microanalytical, you're doing a great job. Go ahead, quote that too...only do me a favor this time and leave off the underlined "Alleycat169 wrote:" title. I think I'll remember that I said it. Sheesh!

Okay guys, enough already. I think you've both made your respective points. Kevin.

I said this thread would die on it's own, I didn't realize that nukem would come in and murder it. ;-) I just think it's funny that he said "I think this topic is beginning to mutate into something that really shouldn't be in this particular forum.", then proceded to spend the next three posts dragging it down by picking apart MY posts line by line and commenting on them. WHO WANTS TO READ THAT??? At the point that nukem requested we 'shut it down', we were still very much ON topic. Of course now we are way off topic, so I'll try to bring it back on course. If anyone has a Klez or Klev virus, go ahead, send it to me. It will simply bounce off my Netscape mail and end up harmlessly in the trash. Macs, Unix and Linux systems are immune to the vast majority of PC viruses. Klez is no exception.

Awwwwww... My quoting make boo boo? Nasty pixels! Bad pixels! Alleycat169, if you're going to get bent out of shape over formatted text on a screen, the Internet may not be the place for you. If you react this way to underlines and italics, you'd better steer clear of 133t $pe4k. You'd probably pop a vein and die. Alleycat169 wrote:"then proceded to spend the next three posts dragging it down by picking apart MY posts line by line and commenting on them." This is truly laughable. You bring up points and issues and I'm not allowed to quote them and respond to them? You try to frame my actions in a bad light, make accusations, and finally insult me and you think I'm not justified in responding to clarify my actions, my position and defend myself using your own words made in a public forum as reference? GET REAL. Take responsibility for the consequences of what you say. If you don't like hearing the response, then it's better that you don't say anything at all. Some people are so downright evangelical about the platforms they choose that they feel that it's their purpose in life to set out on crusades to convert the unwashed masses. If you read back over this thread and the other related thread in the Poser forum, you'll see that generally I tended to agree with you on the assessment of the Mac and the problems with Windows. I've even stated that I used and liked the Mac right down to the way it looks. I haven't denied that PCs get more viruses, I didn't disagree with your assessment of Bill Gates and the Evil Empire of Microsoft. But your zealousness completely blinds you, causing you to lash out at even someone who generally shares your point of view even if there are some disagreements on specifics. An extremist attitude is a dangerous one to have, as we are all sadly aware of in the present climate. Alleycat169 wrote: "This is not a Mac vs. PC flame war. We are discussing viruses and how they are spread." "At the point that nukem requested we 'shut it down', we were still very much ON topic." As I've already stated, my real intention was to shut it down in this forum. You suggested we move it to OT forum. It was a poor choice of words and I've already admitted that. Unlike you, I'm not afraid to stand by what I've said... "...we were very much on topic..." Oh REALLY? Is that what that tirade in message #19 was about? Viruses? Could have fooled me... Message #19 was the reason I thought this thing should be moved. I recall something you wrote earlier... "This is not a Mac vs. PC flame war.." For someone who doesn't want this to turn into a flame war, you've made quite a few jabs and taken swipes at PCs in both threads. Message #19 kinda says it all... Your attempts to simply discuss viruses looks more like a holy crusade in disguise. (We all know how well the Crusades turned out for the Christians.) The discussion start with Klez and you take the opportunity to take a few shots at the PC. Shall I remind you of a certain "Yugo/Porsche" comment you made in a Klez thread? It's one of a few... So far, the lion's share of OS pot shots in this thread and the one in the Poser forum belongs to you. I'm not claiming they're completely undeserved or have no basis in fact but you should know that computer users are like sports fans. You take enough pokes at their home teams, however deserved or undeserved, and eventually you are going to start trouble and that serves no one's interests. The truth is that people will use the tools that they're comfortable with, allow them to do what they need to and what they want to within the realm of their personal situation. If anyone switches platforms or adopts new ones, they'll do so when it best suits them and for their own reasons and not just because someone tries to tell them to. Basically to each, his own and live and let live. Alleycat169 wrote: EXACTLY WHY IT IS BETTER TO OWN A MAC! Proclaiming at the top of your lungs that this platform is better than that platform in any online forum where computer users frequent is akin to carrying a lit match into a very dry forest. All that is really produced is a whole lot of flames, a whole lot of smoke, and then you're left with just a whole lot of ash. I don't know how much experience you have with online communities but you should know better than to post flame bait. Years ago, I chose the Amiga over the PC & Mac. Of course, my PC and Mac friends scoffed at the decision. But within a year of owning it, I landed my first contract job as a 2D animator for a video game while I was still in high school. (...the Dragon's Lair home version if that rings any bells.) The Amiga worked out best for me at that time but would I think it'd work best for everyone in any situation? Of course not. I wouldn't waste my time trying to convince everyone that owning an Amiga is right for them because that's up to them to decide. Alleycat169 wrote: If anyone has a Klez or Klev virus, go ahead, send it to me. It will simply bounce off my Netscape mail and end up harmlessly in the trash. Macs, Unix and Linux systems are immune to the vast majority of PC viruses. Klez is no exception. A laughable attempt to justify posting a swipe at me... Man, listen to yourself. You sound like an 8-year old kid! "Klez cannot hurt me Nyaaa nyaa nyaaah! Bounces off of me! Sticks to you!" Geeez... I won't read any response Alleycat posts from this point on. I'm done with this thread. I promise the moderators that I will no longer continue with it. And, unlike Alleycat (who doesn't want to stand by what he/she says), you can quote me on that promise.

Does that mean you are done cutting, pasting, reformatting, underlining and capitalizing for the day too? I sure hope so. I swear if you spent half the time you spent quoting me on making a real point, you might actually be saying something. You can recycle and rehash everything I say back at me all day. It doesn't mean you are actually making a point. Last time I checked Linux and Unix were PC based platforms, so this is not a Mac vs. PC rant. Windows and Outlook are the real problem, not your PC. They are garbage IN MY OPINION, plain and simple. "unlike Alleycat (who doesn't want to stand by what he/she says), you can quote me on that promise." Uh dude, if you haven't figured out yet that I am a man you really need help with reality. I have quoted you so I hope you keep your promise, and for the record. I stand by everything I say, I just get a little tired of having it underlined, italicized, taken out of context and thrown back in my face like I was in front of a judge. Save your legal dissertations for the courtroom, no one wants to see them here. Least of all me. I couldn't care less what platform or machine anyone else uses. All I was saying was that if you use Mac, Unix or Linux based systems you will not be affected by over 95% of the viruses out there. To me it's a no brainer. Use Windows and Outlook at your own risk...and buy lots of anti-virus software, you'll need it. In fact you can buy mine second hand, CHEAP! I never use it and don't anticipate ever needing it. So relax lil' nukem, no one is 'swiping' at you. Please don't put words in my mouth, it's bad enough that you can't make a point without quoting me and twisting it until it is something for you to flame against. Just once I'd like to see you post a reply where you didn't quote or reference something someone else said. Try forming an original thought for a change, you might like it. ;-)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12357&Form.ShowMessage=746401&Reply=753272#30

Oh for heavens' sake.