Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=6237&Start=37&Sectionid=1&WhatsNew=Yes

I just need to vent. This evening I had someone trash an image of mine in the Gallery just because the character is nude. I have found great encouragement to continue at my work in the comments left by viewers in the gallery. Good and critical. This just irks me though, espescially since I make clear that I AM working on clothing/ armour etc..., the character is near complete, but I've just begun on working out the other elements. I have been very pleasantly suprised at the maturity level here, in particular regarding nudity. I was wary to post the first images of her a couple of weeks ago, but I know the clothing and armor will take time, and I wanted feedback on the character, composition, lighting, etc... The response I've received has been very helpful, and Allerleirauh's hair has made a big difference. (To bad I think I screwed something up using it in Bryce a couple of times :( Oh well, it "makes the character" anyways)! ::sigh:: I don't want to really get to much into the RPG rationale of NChanTryss' arguement, but in simple response a.) My character, Gwen, isn't adventuring sans clothing, b.) just being an RPG character doesn't somehow require that all images have to be in "adventure" mode, and c.) directly to her criticism, Gwen is a Warrior/ Mage. Even IF some gnarley beast were to suddenly barge in on her as is, a quick protective spell and no one is going to "tear...her skin to shreds". And yes, then she would show "exactly is she planning on doing with that katana". :) Even the greatest character is sometimes caught with their pants down! ;) The URL to the image in question is attached. I would welcome your comments there and here! Thanks, Fiontar McEoghan

possibly if you are still working on the clothing/armour it was a bit premature to post to the gallery? possibly post to this forum here for feedback until you have "finished" the picture before putting it in the gallery? (and yep, I agree, the hair does "make" the character, she's got a good face and skin) SewerRat

I like the character and the lighting. As Allie said she is very recognizable. As for the clothes issue.. just shrug off the comments. I can't wait to see her fully done though.:) Storm

I would think it was "trashed" for being incomplete. The Gallery is meant for finished images, the Forum is where you should post works in progress for feedback.

fiontar, I agree she is a lovely character but if I see the same character a number of times in 'evolution', so to speak, in the gallery, I just skip over them after the first time. I agree-you would get LOTS of critical reviews and interest here in the forum. I firmly believe that the gallery is for finished images, not works in progress. I hope she isn't being trashed for being 'nude' though. Diane B

Well, he/she asked--or implied a question by 'venting'. I agree that anyone can post whatever they wish--but IF they want more critical reviews and suggestions of a character in evolution, the forum is a better place for that. Personally, I just think the whole brouhaha over the gallery is getting very tiresome. If people don't like their 'numbers' or comments, then they shouldn't post. Once you put your images up there for consideration, they are open to any comments or scores anyone wishes to give them and I think, IMO, everyone should just get used to the manner in which some people choose to comment and score. If you want critiques done in a mature thoughtful manner, then the forum seems a better place for that. I don't think I have ever seen anyone knocking an image here like the comments in the gallery. Diane B

Allie, just for the record, most of the ancient Greek art shows "their male characters running around with their intimate bits flopping" all the time. Some of them are depicted in war situations and some in the original Olympic games, some were messengers, many in heroic settings, etc. Anyway, what's the big deal about the nudity? It's very common in this forum all the time. When someone wants to post a new hair style for download in the Free Stuff, they show it on a nude figure. I think fiontar's image is very nice, nothing in bad taste, and I see nothing wrong with posting it as is. Melanie

there is notheing wrong with your image in fact I like it the only nudes I get tired of seeing are the ones on the standard poser background. As long as the artist at aleast took the time to change the background color to black or something else thats fine by me.

#%$@ 'em if they can't take a joke.... Scarab<-who thinks that a nice sharp katana along with the knowlege of how to use it is probably appropriate dress for most situations....

I hope this doesn't come through twice! If so, sorry. It's been 10 minutes, seems to wierd, don't remember a delay before. :( Decided to "check in" here before taking a needed nap (I work nights). I'll try to offer a brief reply to what's been said so far. First, I don't consider the image itself unfinished, just the character. The point is that I'm not creating the character to run around nude, fighting goblins and dragons in the buff. I have posted images to the forum that in the proccess of working on the character I thought were worthy of being posted on their own merits. I didn't create this character as a sexual object. These nude images I consider artistic and beautiful. I initially worried that (some, many?)people here might not be able to look at the nude figure for the artistic value. However, as I've posted, I've been very pleased at the mostly mature way that they've been received. I had begun to feel that the community here had the "artistic appreciation" of tastful nudity, or at least the courteousy not to trash an image because it's a nude. I'm Wiccan, and nudity is not a big deal. Also, because of my personal philosophies, I don't see tasteful nudity to be exploitative, just the opposite, empowering. Although I have zero problem with stuff I've seen in Renderotica, I have chosen NOT to post these there, because I didn't want to reinforce in some peoples minds that these nudes of Gwen are in any way meant to be purient in nature. As to the aspect of fantasy heroines, I understand the point. It's kind of silly to see a fantasy babe nude or only in a skimpy chain thong taking on some beast, where apearently being "sexy" is more important to her than protecting her own hide. Gwen is a Fantasy Role Playing character, yes. But the fictional character doesn't just adventure with out having a life beyond the time they are strapped in to their bulky armor. Being from a Fantasy race and culture where nudity is not taboo, then I see no reason why she couldn't work out with her weapon sans clothing, or even pose that way for some reknowned fictional artist of the realm. I only bring it up because that was the RPG basis for the nudity being "wrong"... The fact that the caption mentions that clothing is coming for the character was meant to assure those who might think otherwise that a.) I'm not doing nudity just to do nudity, it's just the only way I can express this character right now, b.) to make it clear that nudity is not the state that Gwen is meant, by me, the artist, to live her fantasy life. Most of any fighting she will do will be clothed and armored! :) I'm not as upset as I was last night, but I just hate that someone would give a 2 not based on any artistic reason, and not because the image was inappropriate for the forum, but just because they can't deal with artistic nudity... One last tangent before I turn this back over to other comments (please do continue, this discussion is important to how I "feel" about this place). On the subject of historical precedent: Yes, there is much art and statuary from ancient times showing female AND male nudity, including nude warriors engaging man or beast. Culturally, the ancient Celts, mostly of Ireland, DID go into battle nude AND woman were allowed to fight, and were respected as fellow warriors! They gave up armor for dextrous mobility AND the shock value on foriegn forces! :) Sorry for missing any specific replies, I've read and appreciate all views I've read here. :) I'll be back later tonight, after some sleep... Thanks Fiontar McEoghan

One more quick note! :) I do plan on many more of this character. It's just my style as an artist. Some develop a single character, perfect a single pose and all the elements, produce one final product, then move on to a different subject. Maybe it's my past experience with photography, but I prefer to do alot with one subject, different settings, poses, clothing, accessories, etc..., and post the best images that come from that. In Poser/ Bryce I may try out many poses with minor tweaks in Poser, export the best one to three into Bryce, then rough out a bunch of lighting and camera angles, saving only the best, until I've save all I have the patience for. Then, I batch render in a medium size, preview render style, a bunch over night. Narrow those down, then re-render three to five in high quality and size while I sleep the next day. Then, I do the post in PSP, and then hopefully get one or two from those that are good enough to post. :) To give you an idea what I'm talking about here, once again photography has influenced my Poser/ Bryce approach. The latest pose, Gwen and Her Katana #2 and #3, are the two "finalists" from a rough Bryce overnight render batch of 37 camera/ light angles! Seven where redone in high quality the next "sleep time" batch, and these two made the cut. It isn't just random, I have a decent eye for lighting and composition, but if I where shooting these with a camera, I would take over 100 frames to get a few that are good enough to share. :) So please don't think I'm posting everything I render of her. Only a handful of those I've done have been posted, and none have just been "slapped out"!:) The earliest few were for advice, which I much needed. If I had realized, I would have posted them in this forum. The past five or so have been posted because I liked them enough to share in the gallery. The character may not be finished, and I still have MUCH room for improvement, and a TON to learn about this medium and the software. However, what I've posted recently are finished images of a progressing character. Fiontar

Actually the poster who gave the 2 didn't say anything about nudity--just 'what would she do when her skin was torn apart or shredded' (taking liberties in the quote). I guess the meaning was that this nude pose wasn't appropriate with a weapon, but nudity as the 'issue' wasn't called into question, at least IMO. I think the comment is pretty dumb, really--so I personally wouldn't worry about it. He/she didn't rate the image on the artistic OR technical ability shown--so--I'd say ignore it. Yes, I agree about the WIP thing as far as Foxhollow bringing it up, but I still think that if its an 'evolution' of a figure, then the forum would be more appropriate. However, if Fiontar considers this a finished image and not just showing us further developments in that particular image/character, then so be it. I personally like the character a lot--and will look for her again, but I think it would be fun to see it in the forum where a more 'in depth' conversation/critique' would occur. Fiontar, honestly, I don't think its a 'nudity' issue, but someone thinks she should have clothes on to use a weapon--well, that's sort of nutsy--just unfortunately, the score reflected an opinion that had no artistic or technical merit to it at all. Diane B

Sorry, but from the angle of the character, it does look like you're emphasizing the nudity aspect. To me, a picture of just her face and shoulders would have looked better. It would have emphasized her hair, face, and expression. I had initially skipped over the picture because it seemed to be a "Oh, look, I can post a naked woman" picture. Yes, the textures are well done, but especially with the multiple naked posts with no context and little to no background, I do agree with comment. Sure, many cultures don't have a nudity taboo, but your pictures do not reflect this. I looked up your pictures, and every picture shows Gwen obviously posing nude, not reacting while coincidentally nude, and in many pictures there is a very obvious expression of sexual interest. I'm not knocking your art, but I think that the criticism is valid. The person was not rude in their comment, and numbers are very subjective. And Allie - death to chainmail bikinis!

Crescent, Allie, I totally agree with the anti-chainmail bikini bit. That's been annoying me forever. As for Gwen, I think you've done a great job on her, and I don't have a problem with the nudity.. But Crescent's got a point though. Being naked with a sword struck me as odd, but since I figured you had your reasons, I refrained from making disparaging comments about it. Oh well.. I think she'll look better in clothes, but that's just my personal opinion. BTW, what morphs/settings did you do for her breasts? I think I've been trying to get that look on one of my characters for a while. Rosh

As for clothing making a difference in a fight, it does. Cloth can help if the person falls down or is forced against a wall. I'd rather rip my pants then rip my skin. In this case, Gwen is thinly built, but trust me, larger chests really need support. (For all the guys out there, try running around without a jock strap for a while!) Has anyone seen the movie Innocent Blood - tolerable vampire flick? The first scene has the female vampire totally nude. The way she moved and reacted was great. For her, it was completely natural. The actress didn't randomly throw her arms up into the air to show off her breasts. She didn't find excuses to bend over or make sexy, pouting faces. The camera "reacted" to her the same as it would have to a fully clothed person - no strange angles to focus on her breasts or crotch. Not only did I not have a problem with the scene, I thought it was great. It established the character in a thoughtful, mature way. I don't object to nudity, but it should make sense. If nothing else, doesn't Gwen get tired of carrying her sword everywhere (no scabard), and don't her feet hurt by now?

Thanks for all the comments, I still am not at all understanding some of the thoughts on nudity in images, and this one in particular. The reason for having the Katana in these images, instead of being just "straight pin up nudes", is to show that she, and her body, may be beautiful, but she isn't any man's "plaything". The blade, her stance and her expression should make it clear that no one is going to be touching her without permission! I'm not applying this to ANYONE'S particular comments here, but in general, I think that there is a lot of discomfort in our society on the subject power, women and sex. A woman can be perceived as powerful, she can be perceived as being sexy, but if she is powerful AND sexy, the sexy is seen to detract from her power, or cheapen it somehow. Allerleirauh, historically, a Celtic warrior shouldn't be using a Katana, but in the RPG realm, it's just another weapon, not limited to any particular culture. Most RPG fantasy realms are a real melting pot anyway, not only human cultures, but hundreds of non- human ones! :) I totally understand and agree on the point of how an artist will portray a male vs. female warrior. If I was one to settle for the chain mail bikini, I wouldn't be having so much trouble finding clothing that will work! (Note: not that there aren't some good images using such). I'm trying to find creative ways to modify things in Bryce to get something appropriate, and am making some slow progress. With better modelling tools, I'd be all set. I'm just stuck waiting to decide if Carrara is stable enough right now, or if I should go for RDS. I can't afford both :( Anyway, I never meant this image to support the old "women in fantasy art" stereotype. To be honest, from my perspective, Gwen is so powerful in these images that I can't even grasp the point that it may be "sexist", to use a poor but approximate word for the sentiment I'm feeling here. She is young looking, sexy, attractive AND nude, but still exudes her power and sense of self. I guess that would be the whole point of the image. And once again, I haven't set her out in the elements sans clothing. The lack of any scene was an artistic choice, but also takes the character out of any expectations in interaction with the world she lives in. Her form, and her comfort with her body and her handling of the blade is the only element being presented her. You don't even have to wonder what she's standing on, and if it's cold! :) I've never seen artistic nudity as gratuitous. The other elements will decide whether there is a "sexist" message, and from my point of view, not only is there no "weakness or submisiveness" being portrayed here, but the opposite! The strong, capable yet feminine warrior is my favorite archetype, and I don't see that Gwen is anything less than that, even sans clothing. Also, when it does come to fantasy art, I may agree with the peeve, but I never judge the image just on attire, or lack there of. Some of my favorite fantasy art also manages to make clear the character's strength and power, regardless of the clothing. Right now, one of my favorite artists is Luis Royo. I find that no matter what the other circumstances, his women have power. That's what I appreciate and love. Fiontar McEoghan

in RPG the emphasis is on the word PLAYING....do you hear me? PLAYING!!!....if there is even a half aed interesting explanation (interesting, not quantum physics supported) reason for a near nude viking bimbo to be toting a laser-sighted antitank weapon as she dashes off to toast mecha-Godzilla...I'm all for it! Just give me a large martini and remind me that the only other Gddmned thing on TV at this time of the evening is Jerry Springer and I am happy and guileless as a clam! Scarab<-naked as a jaybird, fingering my katana....

I just thought she was practicing her swordsmanship in the nude in the privacy of her own home...(or maybe she's been shaving,katana's are pretty sharp)