www.dragonsart.com I have combed over this site pretty thoroughly and recognized an awful lot of items from the Free section in these pics. However, I have NOT seen anything that indicates he has obtained permission to use these items for commercial purposes, nor anything that gives credit to the item creators. The links section has quite a few EverQuest links, but a certain lack of Poser links.

In a lot of free stuff files, the readme will state if the product can be used for commercial purposes and if credit is required. The web site is making money off of the renders, not by selling the props, so it may very well be legitimate.

Well, I know many here are demanding to be credited for their freestuff-creations and it seems to be quite a sport to hunt down anyone who just might use freestuff for something commercial. To tell the truth: I don't care. If I put something up for free, the only thing that I forbid is selling the item alone or in collections. But anyone can do any picture he likes with this item. Freestuff should just be exactly that: freestuff. I am not asking for credit that is not given freely and I do not understand why people "demand" credits for their creations.

I dont see the the crime? If I gave credit to all the free or even stuff I purchased it would be longer then my animations. I say once you put it on the net forget about rules. Good luck inforceing them anyway. You going to take to court. Judge would probly ask. Why did you give it away? Not so sure that site could be making much anyway.

There isn't a crime, the majority of genuinely free stuff contributors allow commercial renders and animations, it's the reselling of the object that's forbidden.

I wish some folks would get rid of their stingy-ness when it comes to freestuff props. Who cares if someone uses it in a commercial render? It is THEIR art. Now, I respect the rights and wishes of someone if they don't want their props used in commercial work. That's why their "free" stuff goes straight to the recycle bin. While I don't have any freestuff up right now (because my site has been redesigned from scratch), all of my stuff may be used in non-commercial AND commercial use. I also agree with the idea that, let's say someone offers a free R2D2 character for Poser, that you CANNOT use that in a commercial render, but that's because the character is TRADEMARKED, yada yada. That's understandable. Get rid of the stingy-ness, I say.

I also hate the idea of having to give credit for some prop in an image. If this is the case, I also don't keep it. Why? Because I cannot keep track of every prop I've ever downloaded. This requirement is ridiculous.

I'm with you TalmidBen. I don't download things that are non-commercial use only because I have enough trouble just finding all the files I have when I need one (even the one's installed) without trying to research each one's history and keeping a separate database of who made what, what is and is not allowed with every individual file. My freestuff is just free - I would only get perturbed if I found someone else giving or selling my stuff.

How would someone enforce that "non-commercial omly" restriction anyway? Maybe there's a few people with no life at all who can spend all their time surfing the net looking for poser images that violate the restriction, then tracking down the person whao did the render, etc... but most people have jobs and families which leaves them little time to waste enforcing the restriction....

A copyright can not stop people from using the copyrighted 'object' in art. Art is nearly untouchable by any law. You can't use R2D2 in your serious SF movie / cartoon / comic, but you can use him in a parody, satire or artistic painting.

If it's that important to the creators that they are credited, maybe we could all keep track if they would give their readme files as name that related to the product. Every time I unzip a file, the text file called readme gets overwritten. If the creator cannot be bothered to name that file, why should they later expect to be credited?

Oh my god, here we go again. The same tired old argument. "I want it for free, and I want to make money off of it. You'll let me do that right?" BAH. Give it up. If you don't like the rules, make your own stuff. Or buy it.

TalmidBen, Preston and the rest, I actually don't mind giving credit to free stuff when I post here at Poser gallery. Or if someone one has giving me an product. But I think when I and alot others post what they bought. The list grows so long. It takes away from the Render. **** I for one am going to quit giving credit to the products I have bought. I've spent tons of money on poser products and what have these people done for me as to get free promotion of there products. Nothing. They have my money and I have their product.

Y'know, one of those characters in the gallery looks a bit like Jimmy Jurk.

Would you really keep all those read-me-files? I use only freestuff that is really freestuff and those items I bought. I really don't want to shift through tons of read-mes just to find out if this or that item is not allowed for this or that usage.

@Turtle: This is one point I can only agree to: I paid a lot of money for the stuff I bought - and I do not want to be forced to give endless lists of credit for that. In some cases, when an item dominates the whle picture or is the central theme of the picture, I give credit for it. But being forced to give credit for StefyZZ's textures, even if they are only used for something in the background, is just ridiculous. As for freestuff: I am always happy if someone gives me credit for this or that item I made (I am especially proud of my spacesuit-breathing-system), but I also have no problem if they do not give credit.

I keep the documentation. Some of it makes for an entertaining read (maclean's for instance).

[Oh my god, here we go again. The same tired old argument. "I want it for free, and I want to make money off of it. You'll let me do that right?" BAH. Give it up. If you don't like the rules, make your own stuff. Or buy it.] But if I use "your" free downloads commercially, what can you do about it? Nothing. Should have thought about that before you gave it away. If you have nothing better to do than search the net looking for commercial uses of "your" stuff, then trying to track doen the person that did it and then try to cash in for a piece of the action that's your problem.

LOL, Little Dragon, Glad my readmes are of some use! One guy told me he prints them and reads them on the beach with his buddies! I have to agree with most of what's been said above. If people put idiotic restrictions on Freestuff, like 'not in commercial renders' or 'not on a Thursday morning', maybe some people will respect it, but they shouldn't be surprised if a lot of others throw it out. Who could be bothered trying to keep track of all that stuff? I think Freestuff should be just that. Free to download and free to use. NOT free to resell! I keep all the readmes that have some kind of information about the item, like tips on how to use it. Or occasionally, I'll keep a readme of a nice item just to remind me who made it. And I agree about people who call them 'readme.txt' What chance does that have of surviving? I mean, if your name was Doe, would you call your kid John? mac

"But if I use "your" free downloads commercially, what can you do about it? Nothing. Should have thought about that before you gave it away." This is the strongest argument I've ever read against providing any free stuff items at all. I won't post all the other choice words I have at this time. You can let your imagination take over. *** I have all my Poser downloads and purchases organized extensively. I have thumbnails, readmes, all the original files. I have an extensive CD library for personal use of course. *** I have not released any of my Marlin Fingle characters as freebies or for sale. If someone has a figure that looks like Jimmy Jurk, they made it themselves. My characters after all do resemble people I've met in "real life," and in fact some that I've met here at Renderosity.

::sigh:: Here we go again. This is why about half of my freebies are not available on Renderosity. I'm not trying to tell anyone what they can do with their art; I'm telling them what they can do with mine. FAQ about my downloads for anyone who wants to know: http://www.shininghalf.com/desprit/lab/dl_faq.html

All I see is a great website with good art. I can't even single out any freestuff in particular.

It's kind of knitpicky to go through someone's gallery with accusations though. Did you check each freestuff he used for restrictions? Not everyone sees the need to restrict their free items.

This is pretty simple: 1.) Anyone who wants to make money should expect to buy their own tools or make them. 2.) Anyone who continually harasses people who don't want to support someone else's income are really insulting those who give of themselves and their talent to provide the free stuff. 3.) All this needless greed has already helped drive away free stuff providers. Some people just want to make the best of their limited budgets, and learn Poser. Then maybe later they will feel ready to go commercial. This whole issue has been brought up repeatedly. Is there anything new to add? Keep it up. Then let's see how many Free Stuff providers you drive away with this thread, and the next and the next. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

First of all, I never do commercial renders with poser. All I'm saying is that the non-commercial only" restriction makes no sense because it is unenforceable. And why would you care if someone else makes money or not? If people decide to quit uploading freebies because they're afraid someone might actually use them, that's their problem. I also oppose the part in most purchased stuff that says "you're not buying it, you're only renting it". I paid for it, that makes it my property. To do with as I want.

I object totally to SteffyZZ's terms. Hell you can't give her products as a gift? You must give her credit? Excuse the hell out of me. But when I buy something, no one has the right to tell me I can't give it away. They'd damned well take my money, and keep their mouth shut until I ask for help. If I ask for help, I expect to get it. If I get an attitude, I won't spend any money on that person's products.

Crisjohn, I respect the "rules" the creator sets, thats why I only download for commercial use stuff. "1.) Anyone who wants to make money should expect to buy their own tools or make them." Anyone who gives something away for free, ideally, it should be free for commercial use in IMAGES/ANIMATIONS, because that's THEIR art. I respect the rights of the creators who don't want their stuff in commercial renders. "Anyone who continually harasses people who don't want to support someone else's income are really insulting those who give of themselves and their talent to provide the free stuff." I'm not harassing anyone, I have the programs and ability to create almost anything (I couldn't create a Mike or Vicky, well, I could create humans, but they wouldn't be as good as Mike and Vicky). "All this needless greed" Needless greed? Who's really being greedy? I just throw away the non-commercial use stuff, or don't download it. Why? Because I can't keep track of everything I download, and I DO make money off of my artwork, and create commercial art. "has already helped drive away free stuff providers" Huh? I don't think so. If anything, it just lets the good ones rise to the top. "Keep it up. Then let's see how many Free Stuff providers you drive away with this thread, and the next and the next." Well, it won't bother me if they are non-commercial use folks, because I won't install their stuff anyway. I still respect their wishes, but when I give away free stuff, it's free for both commercial and personal use. That's really "free". "Talk about shooting yourself in the foot." Not for me.

"2.) Anyone who continually harasses people who don't want to support someone else's income are really insulting those who give of themselves and their talent to provide the free stuff."

Ron, no one is harassing anyone. If you find differing opinons harassing, you need to take a step out of the box.

There is no wrong or right in this case. There are opinions, no more, no less.

btw, ron, why do your free downloads say on the renderosity site that they can be used in both commercial and non-commercial use, if you object to it?

Well obviously some folks have not followed all the debates on freebies. There has been outrageous harassment, and many messages had been posted stating that these arguments had driven away some freebie artists. I've read the messages. You can too. Some of my most recent freebie releases were not very intensive, and owed most of their substance to the original creators. Therefore I felt my own contribution wasn't so great. I decided not to put any restrictions on them. Again, I have an extensive library of downloaded and purchased items. I have all the original files, and all the readmes. It is indeed possible to accept responsibility for your own stuff, and organize. If you can't do that, don't expect the freebie artists to make things more convenient by lifting any restrictions.

Ron, I don't expect the freebie artists to make things any more convienient, and that's why non-commercial use stuff goes straight to the trash - unless it is really good, and then I ask them if I can buy it. I also have a screening process for which items I buy too. Well, whoever harassed another person, I'm against that.

*Reading the conversation.. thinking of writing my reply and then putting down the pen and backing right back out. * -bookmarking my place-

"Well, whoever harassed another person, I'm against that." KOOL.

Uh... who has the TIME to "I have all my Poser downloads and purchases organized extensively. I have thumbnails, readmes, all the original files. " I'm lucky if I manage this one goes in Vicky's folder be it clothing, textures, morphs... this one is a prop... this one is a etc... And I'm with Stormrage, I don't credit stuff I paid for unless it's the reason I made the render in the first place, to show something off. Freebies I try to but I don't kill myself trying to find the creator.

Nice one, Storm! I imagine the Mona Lisa, with written underneath it, "Dress by Luigi Schiapelli, hair by Viviana's, makeup by ..."

If you'd like a credit line in return for use of your freestuff (perfectly understandable, IMHO), you could add such a request to the ReadMe. Personally, I'm very positively impressed by the number of people who actually DO give credits - it's still their own talent that made the image, after all. Just my 0.2.

I like to see credits because I will know who made the different elements. Who made the character, the props, etc? It's good if you want to get the items yourself. It does get tiresome to list all the credits. I'd actually thought of putting up a credits page on my web site. Show some of the stuff I use most frequently, then list the credits for each item in that scene. I very often post a series of images using the same characters, hair, scene etc. For instance I might be illustrating a set of Schlabber's poses because they are so dramatic and artistic. Then if I post a render of show something in my tutorial, I can refer people to my credits page.

I give credit when I can remember who made the things I use, but demanding credit will only make me throw away stuff or not even download in the first place, I'm not doing anything commercial & probably won't for a long time but even now I'm choosy about what I download. It makes me laugh when I see in a readme "if you use it let me know", think about 20000 people downloading & emailing the poor sucker cause they asked for it. I'm tempted to email people everytime I do a render with their stuff & see how long it takes for them to get pissed at me. Thats everytime I hit the render button not post a pic :) Rob

I've had about 1500 downloads of some of my stuff. No one has said "You can see the picture I made here." I like to think my stuff is useful. People have thanked me for the freebies. But it would help to see "some proof" that the stuff has some value. Otherwise maybe I should spend my time doing other things.

actually it would be nice every now & then for someone to say have a look at what I did with your freebie. If someone made money from a freebie I may make in the future then I'm happy cause it shows I'm good at what I do. Rob

Personally, I think if you have freestuff, you should let people make all the commercial renders that they want to. I am against someone reselling or redistributing the freestuff on its own - but the renders geez... that sorta goes against why you gave it out in the first place. I dont care how much you render, render till your socks fall off. If you manage to sell your renders, bravo - you must be pretty good at rendering then. I have made one freestuff, which I allowed people to do just this, anything you want, commercial or not. I didn't even want credit because it was a morph, and I didn't feel that I did enough work to warrant any credit (it was one of my first morphs and could have been better). I had to take it down later, but because of BANDWIDTH problems, not because of people using it. Its nice to give credits to people that have contributed a great deal to a piece, but I think this is simply nuts if its a small contribution to an overall work. And if its something you bought - thats even more nuts. I'd say if you gave it to someone to do product renders promoting the product, then YEAH they better put credits there... but when you bought it fair and square... no I dont think so.

I think of it this way. Anything I make is an ELEMENT in the whole thing. It's not a major part. It doesn't MAKE the scene, it just is part of it. My image above illustrates the many elements that go into a scene. I have images (Sheowan series) for example that has upwards of 100 props, textures, characters and such. I try to credit what I can but I can't always do that. anything that is downloaded from freestuff is an element in any scene, it's not the WHOLE scene. And to those who cry "GREEDY" No i am not. I admire the work that was done, I admire the craftmanship the time and the effort that went into making it. but it's not the whole damned image. Fyrespyrt said I'm not trying to tell anyone what they can do with their art; I'm telling them what they can do with mine. I don't argue with that but then that attitude is why I WON'T Download any of her fantastic work. I won't use it. I admire it from a distance. and that's all, but she is wrong that she's not telling anyone what they can do with their art. She is. If I rendered an image and someone saw it, wanted it. I would make sure nothing that i used had restrictions against that. now i find out, yes there is one with the item there. Now I have to tell that someone no i can't sell it. Even though Fyrespryt would never know about it. its the principal of the thing. and in the end nothing is gained. I lost a sale. She lost the ability to share her work with even more people. not just here on the forums but r/t as well. No one thinks of the greater scheme of things. no one thinks of if their work will outlast them. And isn't that what we want as artists? For our work to be remembered? /end rant

Stormrage, I think you've got me confused with someone else. I don't have any "fantastic" work up, just a few mediocre things. ^_~ Seriously, though, my point wasn't control over my art specifically. There's only one item in my downloads that's completely under my control and marked as "Personal use only" (the other two are derivative works I don't have the right to dictate either way), and that one will be changing to commercial use allowed when I get some time to work on my webpage. My point was that, although it sounds good, it's actually a rather poor argument. It seems to say "I have the right to control my art, but others don't have that same right." I don't think that's actually intended, but that's what it essentially gets down to if looked at from the other side. Here's an allegory I hope will be understandable to some. Say you (general you) made an image desktop wallpaper sized and placed it on a webpage, allowing it to be downloaded to be used as wallpaper personally or be included as part of a free desktop theme. As part of a theme, some of the unique elements can be taken from the image and made into icons or the like. Now, say someone took this image, took unique elements from it, animated them as a screensaver, and sold that. Would that make you mad? If not, then we simply have different opinions and I'm happy to agree to disagree. But if it would make you mad, please explain the difference to me, because I do not see it where I sit. Please understand that I have nothing against those who simply don't download or else immediately delete "personal use only" freebies. I think that's a very mature and responsible attitude. And I'd like to offer great thanks to the many who are respectful to both sides of the argument, even when they disagree. My problem is the very few who show such blatant disdain for those freebie providers, to the point of personal insults and cursing. Those who do have restrictions have their own reasons for it, and that deserves respect even with disagreement.

I guess it wouldn't make me mad because I provided the thing for free and expect no returns on it. They take a small part for a whole work. I am honored that they took even a little because that means part of my work goes on. I do respect the wishes of the people who provide freebies. Even when they don't respect me. I don't cuss and moan and complain because someone restricts something i just toss it out. Unfortunantly I have had to do a lot of that lately

In my early days, Free Stuff items were an utter Godsend. I had nothing good of my own. The Free Stuff items allowed me to try making renders that would just keep getting better. They had substance. Once I got Mike, Vicky and Stephanie, all that Free Stuff helped them come to life, with clothes on. The Free Stuff continues to be invaluable. For a long time I felt guilty because I had nothing to offer in return. But then something came to mind. I'm a slow learner. It actually took me 4-5 years to learn Poser, if you count buying Poser version 1 in 1996. I wouldn't have learned Poser without the help of Renderosity folks, and their patience. I resolved to share the lessons I learned as I learned them. Yes, I'm happy I could help some people. Then I took the chance of offering my own very humble Free Stuff items. I'm giving of myself and my talents to help people like myself, to make the Poser experience just a bit more enjoyable. I'm not here to help the "Pros" with freebies. I see things very simply: If you don't like the restrictions a Free Stuff contributor suggests, maybe you can contact that person to see if they're willing to compromise. Otherwise, just accept the facts, graciously and decide if you want to download or keep the itmes. I've recently been going through my own soul-searching about my involvement in this community. The last time I released some freebies, I got reamed pretty bad by some poor soul who might have had a bad day. That experience just isn't helpful. And I find this thread distressing too. With that in mind, I will no longer participate in this discussion. I want to give back to the community. I just don't need all the controversy that too often comes as a result.

"Here's an allegory I hope will be understandable to some. Say you (general you) made an image desktop wallpaper sized and placed it on a webpage, allowing it to be downloaded to be used as wallpaper personally or be included as part of a free desktop theme. As part of a theme, some of the unique elements can be taken from the image and made into icons or the like. Now, say someone took this image, took unique elements from it, animated them as a screensaver, and sold that. Would that make you mad? If not, then we simply have different opinions and I'm happy to agree to disagree. But if it would make you mad, please explain the difference to me, because I do not see it where I sit."

I think it depends on the nature of the item being used. If someone chopped up a finished image and used elements that weren't designed for the way it was being used then that's one thing. Kind of reminds me of people who make psp tubes out of other peoples images.
But a 3d prop or poser texture requires specific programs, and a lot more imagination and vision.

The difference is between a finished product and an element. One persons prop isn't likely to be the thing that sells an image. It's going to be the whole picture.

I agree with the thought that if someone is making money on something someone else makes, they should receive something as well. That's why anyone here has the opportunity to have a product in the marketplace.
I see offering freestuff as a way of practicing as well as giving back. It irritates me that a person will restrict their stuff yet are able to find restriction free material for their images.

There's definitely more than one way of looking at this issue.

I think the best analogy is with photography. If someone took a photo of your house from the street and sold that photo, would you be upset? Would you have any right to be upset? Copyright of the photo resides with the photographer. Anything else would be impossible. Imagine the task of a news photographer if he had to consult every property owner in every street he took a photo. I've never fully understood why people get so heated about the idea that they might inadvertantly have helped someone else earn some money, but evidently they do. I could understand it perhaps, if for example, someone found their little poser freebie splashed all over the national press advertising Microsoft or IBM or something like that, but frankly, it isn't going to happen. Maybe "commercial use" should be redefined as "corporate use"?

Have any of you followed the story of Morphworld and Traveler? If my fading memory serves, it seems some people were making money off his generosity and talent. We lost Traveler for awhile. Now he's gone commercial. It doesn't take long to voice your opinions on a subject like this. I dare say everyone involved in this thread has already voiced their opinion several times. It really serves no positive purpose to keep debating the issue. If you don't like someone's policy, do not download the freebie. Beyond that, find something else to debate about.

"Beyond that, find something else to debate about. " Ron, stick to simply voicing your opinion of the subject instead of telling people how, where and when to post to a public post on a forum.

With Traveler, people took his free morphs and sold his free morphs, or put them as part of a commercial character set without his permission. It had nothing to do with commercial vs. non-commerical images. His morphs were an essential part of the commercial packages and used without his permission. That is what brought the issue on, not that his morphs were used in a picture, but that the morphs themselves were put on sale.

In otherwords, someone took his free stuff and sold it. It's not much different than taking the free stuff and making money from the results. Oh, and I forgot it's your god-given right to gripe forever about this commercial vs non-commercial issue. You must have lots of free time on your hands.