According to Starlet at CL, CL has permission from those who preordered P5 to IMMEDIATELY charge our accounts for P5. Nope, not when they ship, but IMMEDIATELY. According to Starlet, somewhere in the following quote preorder customers gave CL permission to do so... "Limited time pricing offers. Offers available only through the Curious Labs Web Store. International prices may vary. Offers are not available in all countries. These are hard goods only; no electronic software download qualifies for these special offers. Please preorder Poser 5 separately or your other goods will be put on hold until Poser 5 ships. Preorders will be charged in full. California residents will be charged the appropriate sales tax. All sales are final. Poser 5 is scheduled to ship no later than September 15th 2002." She says this (referring to P5) "is a non-standard issue for our store and orders are not processed in the normal way". Where in any quote does it say that CL will charge preorder customers BEFORE it is shipped, or in Starlet's words at "THE TIME OF ORDER"? All I see it says pertinent to this issue is "Preorders will be charged in full" That sentence says nothing about WHEN it will be charged. It is very nice of CL to indicate that P5 is "scheduled to ship no later than September 15th 2002", but since they are not guaranteeing it then preorder customers are in the position of giving you money at this point for vaporware. While I'm sure some lawyer could defend this position I think this is a very dirty, underhanded business practice. No threats yet, but I think you should rethink your practice.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=844455&Reply=844525#4

actually I thought they'd already taken the money till I popped into my bank yesterday & found the money still in my account. Rob

I just did a check and CL has withdrawn the money from my account.

Chris

That's usually how these things are done isn't it? When you pre-order something, you still pay for it at the time of the order.

My experience has been companies don't charge you 'til the item ships. But in this case, I thought it was pretty clear CL was going to charge right away. That's how I interpreted it anyway. Is it really that big a deal? Unless they sink into the ocean, I don't think CL is going anywhere.

Momcat I disagree. Pre orders, orders, or back orders are not charged until the company ships the item. Go to Amazon or any other company with an Internet presence. Every time I've looked they state that accounts are not charged until the item is shipped. Jackson, What, to you, made it clear? To me at the very least it is an ethical issue. It's not unheard of for companies, even very large companies to in fact, suddenly sink and take their customers and investors money with them. Does Enron or Worldcom ring a bell? How about the sudden disapperance of MetaCreations, right in the middle of an essential bug fix for a previous version of Poser?

I don't think it is common practice to charge for an item that has not even got a firm ship date. Nor will I pre-order under these conditions. I doubt there is anything underhand going on. It just comes down to what you feel comfortable with as a customer

If it means anything, I also interpreted it that CL would charge immediately. Caligari also did the same with their latest upgrade. I don't know about their previous upgrades as I wasn't a customer then. BAM, one should always expect a company to charge immediately unless they specifically state otherwise; even you have confirmed this. CL did not do that. The fact that they stated "Preorders will be charged in full" basically states that CL charges immediately; at least in my mind.

Personally I don't have a problem if CL has already received the funds from my pre-order of Poser 5. We already know it's 'out' - we're pretty well aware of ppl in the community who are beta testers, so it's not like they're looking to screw us over or that the company is gonna fold between now and us getting our software. I think they did the right thing in allowing us to buy/order it before the release date - look at how many people were clamoring at them for it! L In any case, we are still protected by FTC laws - do a little research and you'll see. CL is not going to risk their company over any kind of fraud.

I don't see the big deal my self. This way I know the money I budgeted for Poser 5 doesn't end up going somewhere else. :)

"Preorders will be charged in full." Seems pretty clear to me. If not immediately obvious.

Actually in the software industry it is common practice to have to pay when you place an order for a pre-order item. Just go to any Software-etc store in the US, and ask about their pre-order policy. This is one reason I never pre-ordered anything. Zsolt

That shows what I know! :) Thanks, Zsolt. I think I've been away from the US too long.

Not sure how it could be "unethical" if they state the policy.

I believe Starlet also mentioned that this applied to the limited-time pricing offers, as well. It's fairly common practice, when dealing with a limited-time preorder price, for the card to be charged in full, immediately. One of the most common reasons for this is because of the automation of charging/shipping systems. Should the price change by the time your product ships, and you have not paid in full, the system could end up charging you the increased price. This results in a bad name for the company, increased customer service costs (issuing credits/refunds), and overall customer dissatisfaction. However, come ship time, if you are already in the system as PIF (Paid In Full), your order is processed and sent right on through, no muss, no fuss, and no risk of getting over-charged from your ordering price. This is the most convenient and trouble-free solution for both the company and the customer when dealing with special offers and pricing, that may not be normally handled by the companies automated system. I hope this info eases your mind a bit. CL is doing everything they can to make sure that all those who are itching to have P5 at their door on day one have the chance to do so, and from everything I can see, are doing it straight up and by the numbers. Starlet deserves a raise, and some help. :-) CT

This forum seems to be pretty blase about the "loosey-goosey" business practices of Curious Labs and DAZ. Apparently these two companies can do no wrong as long as they keep fulfilling our "fix" for new Poser stuff. I myself have pointed out that DAZ is aggresively selling MIMIC without mentioning that it's not fully compatable with Michael and Vicky (either version). Regardless of the fact that there's an easy fix for it (suggested not by DAZ but by Jamball77), by NOT mentioning the problem, DAZ is engaging in FALSE advertising, pure and simple. But in this forum, this has all been met with a collective yawn. Hard to believe that this is the same forum that was up in arms when a company called Imaginationworks "borrowed" some of the mesh of the P4 woman to create a new female figure. Imaginationworks' reasoning was that everybody already had the P4 woman so what was the big deal. Seemed like an honest mistake to me, but people here were ready to execute them at dawn. They quickly corrected the problem, but you never hear their name spoken of again. BAM has pointed out something that affects all of us and I commend him for doing it. If we don't keep and eye on this stuff, then sooner or later somebody's going to abuse our collective goodwill. Caveat emptor jjsemp

In my experience, it's common practice. Q

According to Federal Law, a merchant is not supposed to charge you until the product ships. In addition to Federal Consumer protection law, most visa card carry similiar restrictions. Violating this agreement can cause their ability to use VISA to be revoked. I'm not sure about the other credit cards. Amazing what you learn when you read the fine print.

I have mixed feelings about this....I can see it as money in the bank for CL...and of course no money in my bank for me...although a bit of a bankroll for them to get P5 ready...I would think their coffers are a bit light with P4 being a bit long in the tooth, and not much other product to sell...how many Avatar Lab packages can you sell ??? My bank account was deducted the very next day, but for me, this is good, otherwise there is no question I would have spent it on something else...there is no way I have that much control over my cash flow :) I also think it highly possible, but probably not likely , that CL or any other company, could fold up on a moments notice, product in hand or not...for instance, all hypothetical here, but if CL was already a bit short of operating cash, the investors are clamoring, the preorders fall short of expectations...bang...this company is history. There is no loyalty, forgiveness, or mercy in the financial and business world today

The problem is that we're at the mercy of vendors. When they say pre-buy so you can get a "special" deal, it makes you feel as though you're getting something no one else has. Then they raise the price upon release. There's no law against that.

I already had the money set aside for Poser 5, so Curious Labs can take mine whenever they wish.

Companies do this a lot, they do the pre-orders to pay for the cd's and packaging and such. Marque

Uh, guys, it is not uncommon for your credit card to be charged for all sorts of things before you actually receive or use the item in question. Make a hotel reservation for 6 months in advance, and you might find the first night's stay already deducted (how do you arrest a night of rest when you haven't even packed for the trip?). Items requiring personalization (sweater knit to size, baby blanket with data, wedding gift). Custom items where the craftsperson has to acquire expensive or rare materials (although this also holds true with car repairs - I had to pay them for the Volvo part before they could order it, much less install it). Software? I've had it go both ways, billed immediately or day of release. I can't remember a company billing me and then never shipping product. I'd like to add one small point to this discussion. Starlet is one person, hard-working, but still just one person. Day of Release is going to be hectic. If she has to call VISA and/or MasterCard (dialing a 74-digit string of numbers) and authorize (and w-a-i-t for the return code) for every single one of those hundreds if not thousands of preorders, she isn't going to have fingers or voice left by midnight, and I doubt (based upon how long I've waited at the usual restaurant) if she is going to get much past the first few hundred of them. Running them through as they come in may be the only sane and reasonable way to handle it. That way, the shipping labels could get pre-printed, and on release day, someone could get those pups boxed, labeled, and packed out the door, thus getting them shipped on Day 1. Just a thought, but worth considering, Carolly

Carolly...that is a very good explanation...and the sooner my label is on that box, the better :)

I've pre-ordered a lot of software, especially games. My money was always taken out when I ordered it not when it shipped. I understood that I was ordering a copy before it was available, thus PRE-ORDER. I was not RESERVING a copy which is what I do at say Blockbuster or Hastings when I go through them which is rare cause they're slow. I don't know if their is a federal law as was suggested above, if so someone may want to inform the game makers. :)

Alls fair in love and war...and business.... as several large firms have recently proven.

Why do you think they do offer a pre order? Just to be nice? CL most probably has lot of bills to pay and they will have to do even more investments to get CDs manufactured, manuals printed, boxes packed. We help them to get some cash for this and they say thank's by giving us a special pre order price.

'The problem is that we're at the mercy of vendors' Nah.......not at all, not while you can just not buy the product. It's the desire to be among the first to own the latest and bestest thing in all the world that allows vendors to do the things they do. CL don't force anyone to pre-order. Nobody should forget that CL are a business not a community and they do it to make money. Mon ps: CL would make more friends by giving...say Poser 5 to..lets say for sake of argument, everyone who's name begins with mo...just a thought

Before anyone decides to flame: I am only going off the information I have seen in this thread, the referenced thread, and my own observations about the preorder section of the CL site. Below is my "humble" opinions, and is not to be construed as legal advice, etc, or anything other than personal opinions regarding the preorder process involved at CL. [Insert applicable legal fine print and disclaimers here.] ===== "Preorders will be charged in full", IMHO, does not satisfy the obligatory requirements to fully describe the policies and procedures surrounding the preorder purchase process. In fact, the statement, as quoted, is very vague in that it does not indicate: 1) What the definition of "preorder" in that context is. (It may seem obvious, but being overly descriptive can only benefit CL in the case of any "legal discussions".) CYA rings a bell. 2) Exactly who, what, where, when, why, how, and how much (intended exaggeration) the charges will show up on the credit card and any remedial actions available to the consumer(s) regarding complications that may arise during the preorder/fulfillment process. === As for the legality issue: I did a net search and could not find any specific information regarding the legality of making charges to credit cards prior to the fulfillment of the order. However, the majority of the sites listed when searching for "credit card preorder" do, in fact, state that the consumer will not be charged until such time as the product is shipped. Therefore, it would seem that the generally acceptable "best business practice" for CL would be to follow suit; unless explicit information is provided during the preorder process. === In this day and age of computerized billing systems and electronic transfers, I find it highly unlikely that any one person, or compnay for that matter, would have to call the credit card company(~ies) and individually verify each and every purchase (or pre-purchase) that has been made. If this was the case, I would not expect too many companies would even bother with the process, as it would be far too labor- and time-consuming to add that "convenience" for their customers. === Any company worth their salt does not rely upon preorder purchase transactions in order to fund the release of any product. If the company is that strapped for cash that they have to depend upon this source of income to release a product, buyers should beware. === The reference to a "special price", again IMHO, is not that special. $20 off a $349 valued software package hardly qualiies as "special pricing". That amounts to approximately a 5-6% discount; much less than "sale" prices from normal retail/wholesale outlets. In the grand scheme of things $20 in reference to $350 is hardly a dent; I pay more than that in local sales taxes for normal purchases. === Personally, I think CL saw a chance to increase its coffers by allowing a preorder of P5 and the preorder was meant to be nothing more than a "tickler" for the Poser crowd who are all excited about the release of P5. The one thing that this does offer CL is approximately 1-2 months' worth of advanced interest on the preorder purchases that they normally would not have recieved. Therefore, it is more of a give-and-take situation: They give you the option to preorder to ensure you get a copy, and they take your money early and earn more interest, etc, on it than they normallly would have received. For instance, using basic math and purely hypothetical figures: If CL gets 500 users to preorder P5 at $329, the total before taxes, etc (presuming any would be applicable) would be 500 x $329 = $16,450. Since they do not allow you to see the shipping costs associated with the order until you sign up for an account, I will presume that the shipping is $10/order, adding another $5,000 to the kitty. Therefore, in preorder cash alone, they have amassed $21,450 in revenue. If this money is placed in an interest-bearing account/investment, providing a yield of 3% per month ($643.50), this would net CL a total of $22,093.50 of extra income in one month ($22,756.31 for two, etc) that they normally would not have. Although this may not seem like much, to a company that is concerned with bookkeeping, fiscal reports, etc, it could be used to "fluff" figures for the month(s) prior to the official release or provide some needed revenue for whatever purpose it may suit them. Of course, this scenario does not include all of the financial possibilities available, simply because I am a geek and not an accountant or economist. ;0) So, you see, although preordering is a "nice gesture" by CL to the Poser community, there are benefits on both sides. Although I have nothing personal against CL, its affiliates, etc, all businesses try to make the consumer feel as if they are the center of attention and the sole benefactor of any such "generosity" on their behalf. However, companies are not in the practice of doing anything that does not offer themselves a direct benefit in the process. That is capitalism at its best.

Ohh come people be realistic. Amazon.com charges immediately for the product NOT when it ships. You have to pay up front when you preoder video games and dvds/videos from a retailer. Catalogs online, what have you they all charge your card immediatly when you give to them. As I understood it when I preordered, cl would be raising the price of upgrades after the preorder date. If you have read the fine print the 300 some price isn't suggest retail...suggested retail is 599. though the street price at release was expected to be 399.(see news releases) And of COURSE they are benifiting...what company in their right mind would do something with out beneifit to themselves? Not any I know of in the US. tHis isn't akin to stealing meshes or bad business. they are offering a slightly lower price than if you buy it later. I applaud CL...at least they have been doing something with poser. Most old Metacreations software holders havn't done diddly squat since they were scattered to the winds. BTW DAZ brokers most of it's products(anyone trying to use a gift cert knows this) and they don't stop you from contacting the author for help or questions...in fact they encourage it.

Attached Link: Curios Labs P5 More Info page.

In my experience Amazon or other product oriented Internet companies NEVER charge before the item has shipped. I just want to clearly know what I'm gitting into. CL should not imply or make me guess, they should clearly state what they are doing!