Bottom line is Everything get's warezed at some point. If this proves to be a problem, and ANY SOFTWARE COMPANY (Not just C-Labs) doesn't resolve it... then the NEED for the crack will eventually be what will make piracy of their product acceptible. If using the keys to my car get so complicated that I can't drive it without a problem I WILL get it hot wired to make life easier for me. Even if it's on a lease. But sadly we are at the point where this makes sence. It can buy C-Labs the few weeks it needs to make a lot of sales they might otherwise have lost. I don't like it. If it gets in my way I will go around it. But as long as i don't have a problem... I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM. ;-)

In order to remain compliant to the agreement and still safe money... I have Poser on a removeable hard drive that I carry to and from work. Are you saying that I will not be able to do this with Poser 5 because the two machines are unique and it would requiz me? If so... that SUCKS! I won't be upgrading to Poser 5 for a while... IF EVER.

In order to remain compliant to the agreement and still safe money... I have Poser on a removeable hard drive that I carry to and from work. Are you saying that I will not be able to do this with Poser 5 because the two machines are unique and it would requiz me? If so... that SUCKS! I won't be upgrading to Poser 5 for a while... IF EVER.

I've already pre-ordered P5 so I'm stuck with whatever protections scheme CL is running but I'm with Bug on this one, I feel a bit screwed over. After the Pro Pack debacle CL asked us to report warez, because of the hit they took. A lot of people did. What was the result.... an amnesty deal on P4 so people with 'lost' or warezed SN could get a legit number, at a cheaper price than most of us legitimate users payed when we bought it. I voiced my displeasure with CL's decision then along with many other legitimate users. Now P5 is here and WE are having to jump through hoops to use the software we are renting (nice reminder Anthony), while the scum will still hack it, crack it and be using it for free. Then a year or two from now the warez crowd can go legit again at half the cost. All to CL's benifit. Tell me how I'm not supposed to see that as CL giving its customer base a kick in the face?

Just some thoughts: Lock on cars are to keep the "average" person from just opening the door and taking your stuff. If a professional burglar/ theif wants to take your car, it's gone- he can disarm and alarm system and wire the car before anyone sees a thing. (That's why he's called a "professional") The same goes for software- the registration keys keep "average" people from copying it and using it multiple times. The professional pirates/ hackers have all kinds of tools available, such as code-generator programs that create fake registration keys and the ability to disable the "challenge" code OR even disable the "requires CD" protection". So, if you're really concerned about "security", do what a number of other graphic artists are doing: Purchase the software (in this case, Poser 5) for the full retail price. You how have a fully legal, licensed copy. Next, go to a p2p site and download a cracked version of the software. Install and use the cracked version on your PC. Now, you don't have to worry about the "challenge" code failing or CL going out of business or your "dongle" breaking or anything else. And since you purchased the product (it's sitting there on your shelf, still in the box), you are completely legal. --John

Just to clarify some of Anthony's points, since a lot of people seem to be missing them: 1) People will be able to request multiple codes for multiple disks/machines, up to a certain (unspecified) number of times before it is queried. So users with laptop/desktop combos will be OK. 2) Reinstalling on the same disk will not require new codes, or re-accessing the CL site, only a paper copy of the existing code. 3) Installing on a removable hard disks or transferring the hard disk to a new machine will not require an additional code. I am still opposed to the concept though :-) Bill

I think it's way out of line to compare a word processing or OS to a rendering program. That's apples and oranges and it doesn't work. The issue is that many of your customers, particularly returning customers are past the baby stages in Poser and instead of encouraging them to run with it, you have hobbled them. With all the emphesis on why are there so few animators, maybe if you watched one work, you would see how this system is useless to them. If we pay for a program we should be able to do the work the program advertizes in a way that make sence in time. This means being able to work on the next scene one one computer while the other computer is rendering. What becomes funny is the warez person doesn't have the dilemma. With their crack or key or whatever they use, instead of 2 machines, the program is working on hundreds. I do understand security, but I do know that locking doors excetera is only a pretence. It says I am not here and would like you to stay out. It only works with decent people who wouldn't have openned the door if it was unlocked without a welcome. Thieves find the lock an invitation. It seems your security system hurts more than benefits you.

Well, y'know, way back when, we had no registration codes, just the software. You didn't "license" it; you bought it. If a newer version came out, you sold or gave the older one to someone else so they could use it. And it was no big deal. Then we got serial numbers to make sure we were indeed the true user, and the numbers became these huge strings of letters and digits that almost guaranteed getting screwed up the first time you write them. Now we have challenge codes as double check for the serial number already given to you on the package. I guess the next generation of all this will be asking my mother's maiden name and DOB as a password to get the challenge code to install the serial number to run the software in the house that Jack built.

I don't have much of a problem with the new security measures. I want CL to survive. I want to use P6, P7, P8... and that to me means supporting CL and their policy so that they can be around to continue updating their product. On some forums, it it becomes known that someone is using a pirated copy of Poser, their posts and questions are ignored. But they keep using Poser and CL doesn't get paid for their work. Of course there are hackers and crackers who can get around any security measures - and if someone is insistent enough, they can find a warez site that has what they're looking for. But for people like me, I am perfectly willing to PAY for the software and comply with their security measures. Poser is neat. I like to use it. They deserve my money and cooperation. How would you like it if you were a free-lance artist trying to make a living with computer graphics, you made a kick-*ss illustration using Poser, but then someone else hacked your computer, stole the file and gave it away to magazines and galleries, or better yet, SOLD copies of it to whomever wanted it? Or bought a print from you and then copied the print and sold their copies? If you buy a signed, numbered art print, you are NOT buying the right to copy that art and resell it. You're not buying the work of art itself - you're buying a copy of the art. The owner of the copyrights has the right to protect their product. The fact that some people will get away with violating the copyrights doesn't mean that the owner shouldn't do what they can to prevent it. Heck, that's what companies like Digimarc are all about, isn't it?

"* CuriousLabs got SPANKED when the ProPack was warezed * This was an assumption." This is exactly what I'm talking about. You guys just don't know what's really going on at CL. Everything is just hearsay. And that seems to generate a lot of avoidable problems. If you guys were a bit closer with the company. You'd have a better understanding of the problems they have to deal with. And why they do what they do. I guess I know too much. But not quite enough. ;-) ScottA

Attached Link: Microsoft's Activation information

IMHO, there is still a degree of vagueness in the process that needs to be discussed. However, seeing as how CL seems to be either unwilling or unable to disclose this information, I have made my decision not to purchase P5 or any other versions that contain this type of security scheme until it is either removed or revamped and discussed properly so I, as a paying consumer, can fully understand my legal rights and obligations in the process. A lot of posts liken this to Microsoft's Activation scheme. However, if you view the link, Microsoft goes through a full disclosure of the process and explains it in a manner that people can understand. I recently purchased a copy of XP Pro, and I will activate it because the process is fully described and documented. Therefore, if anything goes wrong there is a baseline of information I can use at my disposal to request compensation or other remedial actions. To this point, CL has shown me that it is unwilling to trust the legitimate users with pertinent information regarding this "simple" process (ie, just what *will* trigger a new activation? how many times can you reactivate without being hassled? etc). I have P4 and ProPack and I was excited about all of the new features in P5 that would make my life easier. However, in my opinion, the lack of information and reassurance by CL to quell the legitimate concerns of its consumers causes me to question the true underlying reasons for this activation scheme. In addition, there are several points in the EULA that are unclear and, quite possibly, not even legally enforceable. I will wait to see what the other consumers think after they have had the product for awhile before re-evaluating my decision. Chances are, if I wait long enough, I can probably get the full version at a greater than 5-6% discount currently offered by preordering as well - a double bonus.

I brought this issue up earlier, and there are a couple of reasons it has been loud. This is a slippery slope. First it identifies you, then it tracks you, then suggest a subscription, then it will force you to pay a yearly fee. This is something happening with Microsoft. I am not saying CL future plans are evil, but it is in a direction most people would think is bad. Several test drive software that is pirated. I know of 5 people who they got pirated versions (not from me), and tried Poser out. Two deleted it when they realized it was not for them. Two bought full copies, and I think one still used the pirated. Because of this Curious got two purchases of Poser, when they would have had none (but none of the people even thought of downloading the demo, thinking it was bad, errors, beta, unsupported, etc...) CL has my credit card number. If some creates a hack with my Serial Number, they can charge me for distrubiting software. Or if they think I have not bought Item XYZ at their store. Several people had threats if they did not buy textures and etc... Lastly Curious Labs listens. They hear our complaints, when we hate what MS does, we can not effect change. But the community is hoping that we can pursade CL to change. I would prefer more privacy then security measures.

John - I suggested the same thing in another thread. I don't know if it IS above board, but it will certainly be tempting. How to drive people to the pirates ... hmm. Virtualsite - "Well, y'know, way back when, we had no registration codes, just the software. You didn't "license" it; you bought it. If a newer version came out, you sold or gave the older one to someone else so they could use it. And it was no big deal." - Too right. A lot of this EULA business seems to me like a con that the big software houses have put over us, by persuading politicians who are ignorant of computing to pass legislation suitable to the softcos' business case. Ordinary copyright law should provide sufficient legal protection against copying without introducing the concept of licensing. If I buy a book, it is against the law for me to photocopy the whole thing and pass it to someone else. Nevertheless, I don't license the book. Nor do I license a music CD, which is just as easy to copy as software. This is why I'm not receptive to arguments along the lines of "all the other EULAs say this that and the other".

Considering the anstonomical render times that animation is going to take, I think it's pretty lame that CS expects us to buy 2 (or more) copies of Poser, just so we can continue using it while the second copy on another computer is trudging away at an animation that might take DAYS to complete. Poser 5 doesn't have network rendering, does it??? They aren't being realistic about how some people intend to use the program. Might as well strip all of the animation code out, and sell a seperate "Poser animation" program that plugs into the modeling and posing part of the main program, like PPP does with other apps. Which brings up another point... PPP has freely downloadable plugin files for OTHER applications that have distributed network rendering. So, let's say somone has 2 different programs (for example.. Lightwave and World Builder) that are BOTH rendering animation with Poser scene files in them, on 2 computers each. Aren't they violation CL's EULA agreement? If so, maybe CL's outta add the PACE system to all of the plugin files, too! And have the plugins check to make sure there's no other plugin implementation being used on the network, at the same time. It should also make sure that Poser isn't being used at the same time, either, since technically, it's already being used within other applications. By the way.. Both World Builder's, and Lightwave's network rendering are built in. Neither company expects people to purchase multiple copies of their software, just to render animation. They are simply being realistic about it, and realize just how flippin' LONG it can take to render animation. GET REAL, CL! From what I've seen in the Poser 5 manual I downloaded from your web site, there hasn't been much of anything done to make animation easier than it's been in Poser 4. Still a giant PITA, for sure. The number of times that I've had to re-render sections, because of things like shadows going crazy; or that awful spline implementation trying to turn models into pretzels. Animating in Poser is ENOUGH of a chore. I sure as hell am not going to pay 2 or 3 times over, just to have the "privledge" of not having to sit on my thumb, because the only copy of Poser I have, is rendering animation. I don't think CL should expect anyone who wants to do animation, to have more that one lisence, just so they can work with Poser and render at the same time. For what it would cost, that person would be better off with a fuller application that's able to render Poser into the ground, across multiple machines, WITHOUT being expected to buy multiple copies.

Hi Scott I'm not trying to assumptions here, I don't know if anthing else is going at CL, but I also don't see what bearing it may have on the debate. As I remember, there was a statement or post from someone at CL (Steve Cooper?) that ProPack sales dropped noticebly when the warez sites opened up, with the implication that the two were directly connected. This is the assumption that I was referring to. It implies that a large proportion of people who were prepared to purchase legitimate copies of ProPack suddenly decided to go for the warez instead, and also that a proportion of people who use warez were also prepared to purchase legitimate copies rather than wait for a short while for free, illegal, software to become available. This does not ring entirely true to me. The fact is that software sales do show dynamics, after the initial rush it may not be entirely unexpected that sales will show a dramatic fall if early community feedback has not been entirely positive. Simulataneously there will alsways be a delay of a few weeks before the warez copies become available. I would be interseted to see CL's figures on the proportion of ProPack registration. If warez users were buying ProPack at the outset, they may have been less inclined to register, and therefore the proportion to register could be expected to rise after the warez copies became available and these people fell out of the legitiamate ordering process. Bill

Anthony: Will P5 try and register online from the machine I install on? I have isolated machines that I only connect one way network wise to avoid hacking and virus infection. The machines I install on are one way meaning they can't see out but I can send to them. Can I complete the installation process on an isolated machine. I would assume of P5 can go onto a laptop then yes. I have purchased software in the past that insisted on a net connection so it could register at a URL. A real pain. Other than that I'm all for the protection. If nobody intends to make illegal copies then its a non-issue. As for the arguement that no copy protections is safe, P5 will be hacked anyway so why bother you can use the analogy of a locked car. Any real thief can break into a car. A brick, prybar and a screw drive and 3 minutes will claim your car. But we all still lock our car doors. Why, if the car can just get stolen? Because the locking reduces the set of people that can steal the car. Leaving it unlocked with the keys in the ignition invites a much broader set of theives ie casual thieves, people who don't know how to hotwire a car but maybe tempted to steal one if its easy enough. Its one thing to have your car stolen even after you locked it and turned the alarm on. Its another to get it stolen cause you left the car door open with the engine running while you ran into 7-11 to buy cigarettes. CL isn't going to stop every thief. Gear heads who really want to steal P5 will crack it with time. CL wants to stop casual theft. There is also the issue of activily protecting your property. If CL does nothing to protect their interest it can be argued their software is public domain. Plus I would imagine P4 will come down in price to the point that even poor college kids can buy it. And looking at the galleries so far people have done some amazing things with P4.

You know.... some of you people annoy the friggin' hell outta me. Gotta have something to complain about. 1. Anthony has stated that you'll be able to put it on several computers without any flags being waved. 2. If you reformat your harddrive it "should" not require you to re-contact CL. (He'll let us know.) 3. We all know that copy protection doesn't work for the professional cracker. 4. This copy protection is primarily for the casual copier; making another copy for cousin, friend, etc. If they see what you've got and they like it, $350 isn't too much to shell out for a program that does this much. And if they can't buy it right away - they do what all honest people do; they use Mommy & Daddy's credit card or they SAVE for it. And I could go on and on. Contrary to (the apparently) popular belief that EVERYONE knows where to download cracked versions of programs... that isn't true. Not everyone wants to or does. And those who do and don't know how/where... well... maybe they'll buy their copy because they'll be reading this list and hear how absolutely fantastic the software is! You know what? If you don't like the copy protection system they've got, fine. DON'T BUY THE SOFTWARE. Again, you need something to complain about. Currently I'm sticking with W2k and not bothering with WinXP simply BECAUSE of that sort of copy protection. (Well, that and the fact that apparently W2k is more stable:) So... I'm NOT buying that product from them. On the flip side, I think Poser 5 is gonna be kickass. So... this copy protection may be annoying, but then I've got three seats of Lightwave so I'm used to this MINOR irritation. And YES, it IS minor. Someone brought up the fact that they don't want to have to call Ford every time they get into their car to go to work. What kind of lame analogy is that? It doesn't equate to this copy protection at all. You DON'T have to call CL everytime you use Poser - just when you switch computers. Well... if you move to a different state, you DO have to re-register your car in that state. And in NJ (where I am), if you move from this house to that house you also have to inform the state. Hassle? Yes! Necessary? Well, to the state it is. And... it's the law. Oh, you say you're registering with the state and NOT Ford? Well, like someone else here already said, you're NOT copying the car to the new state - you're taking the same car since it can't be duplicated. Software can be duplicated. Just think about it. It will sink in eventually. Legitimate questions are great. Can I install Poser 5 on a second machine? Do I have to re-register everytime I reformat? Can I put it on my laptop AND desktop? Can I put it on my work machine and my home machine? Etc. But to everyone who is complaining about this copy protection and saying that NOW they're NOT going to buy Poser 5.... fine.... again, DON'T FRIGGIN'BUY IT. I WILL buy it - already pre-ordered. And so have three other friends I have that DON'T have cracked copies nor any intention of looking for them. Curious Labs is NOT a big company. They are doing this because it's the cheapest way out for them and us. Perhaps next time they'll go with a dongle? You'd like that wouldn't you? YOU try being a small company and having your software copied and given to friends. Oh but Megalodon, it's going to be cracked anyway. Well... duh, I did say the CASUAL COPIER - not the experienced hacks that post it on the web. READ. Instead of giving major grief to the small company (CL) - why don't all of you who've decided NOT to buy the software (or even those who just want to complain) because of this copy protection system start a campaign against Micro$oft where it will do some "real" good. Start picking on the "Big Guys" instead of the smaller Curious Labs that live from software release to software release. It's SO easy to complain about your "incredible inconvenience." Hell, most of us in THIS country (USA) and those who CAN buy this software have it easy - REAL EASY. Start thinking of the others less-fortunate in this world and where does that put your "incredible inconvenience?" I can tell you where but I do draw the line at SOME language. Ohhh... boohoo... woe is me who has to call or e-mail CL every time I put Poser 5 on another computer. Oh, but Megalodon, I have twelve software packages that have me do the SAME thing. And now, another one? Ohhhh, that's SOOOO terrible. And those of you who have to reformat your drive five times a month?... you've got something wrong with your system. Fix it. People - get a life! MOST Sincerely, Megalodon

Heya, Megalodon... Guess you don't realize that you are complaining about people complaining? "Waaaaaa! Look at all the people who are complaining! Waaaaa!!" Sheesh...

I do agree with Magalodon in some points. If you don't like it. DON'T BUY IT!!! There are always alternative. Well, I will go to art store and get some watercolors and hotpress boards again. to jimevans 2000: computers and softwears are not Art. They are Tools.

For clarification for you guys: 1) Your authorization is based entirely on your Hard Drive. You can change everything in your machine, but as long as the authorized HD still exists somewhere in it you don't have to re-authorize. It will -not- survive a reformat, but your same challenge and response code will work after the reformat. So you should print/save your registration after completion and keep a copy somewere handy. 2) Assumptions being made about cracks are grossly exaggerated. Im not about to post the dirty details of the encryption scheme, but I can tell you your hex editor wont find anything useful. Curious has utilized a third party that has a staff of scientists that stay on top of these issues and have tools that have a long running history of doing their job. 3) Grace period. You have a Grace period to run the app w/o registering it. That way you can play/use the all while you wait for your carrier pigeon to get to us. Rylan Hazelton Curious IT Geek

SO! Anyone tried a beta copy yet?

The fact of the matter is... honest people will pay for the software and dishonest people won't. I haven't heard of a copy protection scheme yet that hasn't been cracked and the software distributed. So what is CL really doing? To use the car analogy, they are putting a 9 digital combination lock on our car doors. So we sit there everytime we want to get in the car and dial the combination (5 left, 9 right, 27 left, etc.). The bad guys come... look at the lock... laugh hysterically about the stupidity, then break the window, open the door from the inside and drive away with your car. It's insanity. I've said it before and I'll say it again... their copy protection scheme does nothing but annoy the legitimate users. I'm sure within a week people will be posting to the board that they see Poser 5 on the warez sites... or kaaza... or wherever it is they it shows up. Thanks for looking out for us CL... (snicker)... we REALLY appreciate you making it easy for your customer who keep you in business, while making it simple for the people who hack your software - who will be able to bypass this stupid register code. (SMACK!)

If not for the new protection scheme I would have already preordered Poser 5. When comes to Windows XP, many people are doing what JHoagland suggested; they are buying legitimate copies of XP but are installing a cracked version. There is a danger that the Poser 5 protection scheme may drive legitimate users to use hacked versions of Poser. Many more people will not even bother and get no version at all. As for myself Ill take wait and see approach. Once Poser 5 is out we will know for sure how much of a hassle the new protection scheme will be, then Ill decide whether or not to get it.

I already have some software that uses this same type of protection. It took like 5 minutes to get a new code for a new machine. So If I weigh the advantages of Poser 5 over the disadvantage of the trip to the web site for a new code number, I don't have to think about it long before I make my decision. It's an inconvenience, that's true, but would it keep me from buying Poser5? Hardly.

People complain about the long numbers, but if you register over the web, you can cut and paste that long number error free in a few seconds. It aint no big deal, at least not for me.

Well, I have to admit, I just don't get it folks. Except for those who legitimately need to run two copies at once, all the arguments and unhappiness don't seem worth it to me. Lord knows there are many more serious hassles in life than activating a piece of software. Obviously other people feel differently and a few say they are willing to lose the money they prepaid to back their principles. I don't understand it but I'm glad people are that willing to stand up for their beliefs. Actually, I'm glad all of you are not going to upgrade. Since I can't afford P5 for a while, it means more people who'll still be talking about something other than P5 around here. Of course if anyone want's to sell their copy (which for reasons of principle they won't use) at a 50% discount, let me know. "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees." - Benito Juarez

"If CL does nothing to protect their interest it can be argued their software is public domain." No, that's not true. Copyright is copyright. Nothing is public domain unless it is explicitly stated to be. Incidentally, isn't there a slight irony in the fact that CL wish us to trust them with our personal data, but they clearly don't trust us with their software?

Rylan, "2) Assumptions being made about cracks are grossly exaggerated. Im not about to post the dirty details of the encryption scheme, but I can tell you your hex editor wont find anything useful. Curious has utilized a third party that has a staff of scientists that stay on top of these issues and have tools that have a long running history of doing their job. " They may be doing their job, but everything get's cracked. Maya, Lightwave, They have been cracked and are being shared easily enough. When they want it bad enough and to show programmers up they WILL crack it. Unfortunantly this is unavoidable. I for one do not agree with the protection that CL is putting on it, but I am not sure yet if I will get P5 or not. I may, because it has interesting features. BUT if that protection should ever fail and cause me problems I WILL be pissed right off. I love you all at CL you do fantastic work. but I do feel that you are making it harder for the honest people to do their jobs, hobbies. The one point I am concerned about is the challenge code. Say I have to replace my hardrive many times through the year. Replace not reformat. This means I have to get a new code everytime. Right? Now HOW Many times can I get it without being assumed that I am warezing it? This is a real senario here with people upgrading all the time. I am not sure that this is a good idea, and just from this thread you are losing buyers by it. But please don't assume that it won't be cracked. The best laid protections are hacker's dreams.

I guess I don't really understand the big deal. Yes, it is inconvenient, but only when initially installed. Still, you can use it even if it isn't registered for a while. As to the analogy of a nine digit combination lock on the car, that isn't even close. All that is is a scare tactic that seems to try to tell people not to buy. You won't have to register with CL everytime you start the application. A closer analogy would be filling out all the paperwork at the car dealer in order to take delivery of a new car. You only do that once. If this is too much of a hassle for you that you don't buy Poser 5 then fine. Just don't spread misinformation. CL could have used much worse copy protection, be glad they didn't!

Unbelievable! Those of you complaining about the few minutes it'll take you to register... TOO BAD! DON'T BUY IT. Roy G hit the nail on the head. It's an inconvenience, but it ain't that tough. And how many of you who DON'T buy it right now WILL buy it later because you'll see all of the cool images that everyone who has it will post? I'll bet the vast majority. "Oh NO I won't... I'm not gonna give in to that! I'm gonna take longer to do my art because I'm NOT gonna take the two minutes it'll take to register my Poser!" Yeah... right. Cut off your nose to spite your face. Always been a wonderful concept. Again... yeah, right. But you WILL end up buying it, and then you'll realize.... gee, this isn't so bad. Why did I make such a big deal out of this? And then... will you feel dumb. I already do this with several pieces of software. Now it's part of the routine. NO BIG DEAL. Again, you people are UNBELIEVABLE!

good question Storm ... btw - long time no see :) I'm reinstalling (reformating) my compy twice a year (minimum) and I'm buying lot of new hardware (like bigger HDDs) and then I'm reinstalling Poser on a bigger new HDD (I have a good hardware dealer in town so I get about 5 new HDDs a year :) ). That are about 7 times of reinstalling Poser in a year. So how many codes are reserved for each Poser 5 user? Chris

You may install Poser 3 times on one machine, 3 machines, or any combination thereof. My God, what about the fourth time? Actually, we have a couple of customers who for one reason or another have had to exceed 3 installations, usually due to upgrades, viruses, etc. What happens? A flag pops up saying "You have exceeded the maximum number of installations". You call Customer Service, verify your registration information, and get your installation counter reset. The whole process takes 90 seconds. Easy? Simple.

Using that cracked copy of XP or any other software after you have purchased a legal copy is still ILLEGAL. Or can't you guys figure that out. I'm a bit confused, as always, what the hell the big deal is. If you don't like copy protection schemes and all that...just like that guy above me said...don't buy the darn thing....but I suppose you'll go out and download that cracked copy because it doesn't have the protection scheme, because the CL copy is inconvenient, and we don't need inconvenience, so its ok...or maybe even eventually buy the real deal and then get the cracked copy, oh just for backup and convenience..its still fn cracked !!! Its like I said on a previous post, but no one commented---they aren't REALLY trying to stop piracy from the hackers, because they can't...they're trying to stop ma and pa, dick and jane, joe hobbyist from installing the program on everyone's hard drive in the neighborhood...us "honest folk" that figure it's ok to fire off a copy for Aunt Edna that would really like to play with that cool program that she saw at Johnny's house, while on her death bed and stuff..... And don't try to say I'm wrong here....most people don't have a clue what the difference between legal and illegal is anymore---they can't even obey the simplest traffic rules--such as speed LIMIT.."oh, the cops don't care if you drive 65 in a 55...everyone does it". Stop sign ????? Oh--they have this cool wireless tranmitter for the internet...hey neighbors....buy one of these for $40 and we all can have internet access.... AW, I just got this great software called Poser 5...man, you remember when we used to play paper dolls and all the jocks used to laugh at us ???? Well now you can do it with this program...and the girls even look real with breasts and stuff.....do you want me to install it on your system??? Cool !!!...I just got done putting it on my bros system down the street too....hey we can swap those models I downloaded the other day too....

1. if poser 5 is not a full featured web browser, sole purpose to surf the web, the firewall won't allow it to connect to the internet.( every attempt will pop up query screen from firewall) 2) the more security coding in any application, the faster that there will be cracks developed for it. yes plural as the harder the challenge the more crackers will work on it. 3)software dongles scream for crackers to hack them. a challenge code is a software dongle. 4) the comment saying that there won't be a crack is the type of comment that guarantees that there will be a warez version extremely quickly.it is a blatant invitation to do so. just got reminded of something, even physical dongles can be broken by the hacker teams that are out there. yes, CL has the right to try to protect thier property, and we have the right to choose if to purchase / upgrade or not. while I think that cl has gone a bit overboard, it is thier right to have the piece of mind by trying to protect thier property. linux is open source, there are commercial apps for linux, and it isn't easy to find anyone hacking commercial apps for linux, as there is enough free software for it that you really do have a choice of which to use. ( Blender and the gimp are good examples) yup, even saw a hacked version of maya for linux ( boy was that one tempting, but stilll only using the m$ based ple) honest people respect the restrictions, dishonest people won't. it's that simple.

I am honestly not trying to start trouble here, but this image demonstrates that where there is a will, there is always a way.

Hey Chris, S How you been? megalodon, and others who seem to be getting nasty in this thread, calm down. People are concerned and wanting answers. They have the right to ask, and I haven't seen many people getting nasty with CL but voicing those concerns. Keep this thread calm. No need to piss anyone off. Let's talk like adults.

Anthony: as I understand you right, I can install Poser as often as I want on my Mashine. Only get a new code after the 3rd time? Thats OK for me. hehe ... I dont wanted to be called a warez guy because I will request 7 codes a year :) btw ... cant wait for my copy of P5 (someone has a timemashine?) :D Chris

If you don't like it don't buy it. What happened to the day when a customer was allowed to complain about a problem with a product? From the Customer Service training I've had, most companies love complaints and suggestions. After all it gives them the chance of keeping that customer, if the at least listen and try to address concerns or issues. Thats what this thread is about to me, we have the oppertunity to tell CL what we think of their decision. That gives them the chance to address it. If I was CL I'd rather see and address these concerns then have people just up and abandon the software. That said, I don't agree with or support CL's decision to include treat us as if we might be criminals after offering deals to leagalize the real warezers. I also admit I will still use P5, project decisions force me too. But will I get P6 or look for another alternative between now and then? Depends on CL's reaction and what the market brings.

Thank God there's no dongle! Anything but that. I also have WinXP and have had to replace my motherboard and then my HD - neither times did I have to call Microsoft. According to what I had read I thought for sure that I would have to. I really dislike Microsost so it's hard for me to admit that registering WinXP was no big deal and has been no problem since.
I still think I'll buy Poser 5 ;-)

Windows XP Microsoft Office XP Microsoft Frontpage 2002 Microsoft Publisher 2002 Microsoft Project 2002 These were the products my company used on a regular basis. We had it installed on 26-30 machines and had each and every copy liscensed. Then the problem with the Activation Code (CL's Challenge code it sounds a lot like) started. Here is what happened when a machine was replaced. Installed Windows XP Go through Activation online Activation failed, call 1-800-xxx for Activation (CL I assume you will have an 800 support number?) Called 1-800-xxx and listened to an obnoxious computer as it descibes to me how to enter the number. Enter number Activation failed. Hold for Rep. Rep comes on (not always a long wait) Give code to Rep. Rep asks why this software is being reinstalled. Rep. makes comment about Activation scheme and how many times you have installed. Get Activation number from Rep. Hang up phone. Windows XP Installed, proceed to other Apps. All apps installed, all fail activation. Call Microsoft, speak to computer again and single Activation fails, speak to rep. Give rep number, get questioned, get number. Give rep other numbers for other products and go through the whole procedure to get all apps activated. Give computer to user. Umm, and that was for 1 single machine. All the while, the rep is calling me Mr. Roberts because I am on their files as the reqistered user for all the software. They have a complete ownership history at their fingertips, yet they still walk you through the whole thing. Now my company uses Windows XP only. And when we get a new machine, we have it preinstalled. We don't talk to Microsoft and we don't buy their products. Granted that is an extreme situation, but for a person who is willing to go through all that crap and now they have other software from other companies jumping on that awful copy protection scheme it is unreal. SO those who say this is not a big deal, you are wrong, it is a big deal because it is just not this one software, it is the acceptance of a flawed security system that instead of protecting the software makes users abandone software they have paid for. I hate that I feel guilty even challenging this scheme, because I am an honest user, but yet this whole thing makes me feel like I am doing something wrong. The more companies that adopt this method, the worse it will be. SO if you think that simply because CL is small and it only take x number of minutes then you are going to be suprised when every piece of software you own is like that and that x number of minutes equals 3 days of phone calls to various companies trying to activate something you legitimitly paid for. Meanwhile this same software will be passed out on P2P systems completely cracked and the downloader will be up and running in no time. That, my friends, is garbage. JDexter

Hey Stom, I'm doing fine, yourself? :) Kiera: "where there is a will, there is always a way." -yes your right! but ... everything gets warezed ... each software, movie, music almost everyting ... the T-Shirt I'm wearing is warezed (sorry, just a joke). Its always better if your on the legal side, isnt it. If something goes wrong with your product you will have someone who can help you (except MS grin). Its your choise on which side you will be, the light side or the dark side (man, that sounds like Yoda :D ) If you are a legal user of a software you will get full support and you can help to make a product better. It does not matter what protection they have. As megalodon said: ITS NOT A BIG DEAL. I'm not on XP because its protection system its because its too buggie (LINUX rocks!) *** note for Kupa or Antony *** will there be a LINUX version of Poser in the future? *** There WILL be a warezed version of Poser 5 and NOONE can do anything against it ... but as I said ... its your choise. Chris

I have no idea what financial losses CL has suffered due to Software Piracy no one does but them. I have read that many software customers build these potential losses into the price of their product. CL has released a product(Poser 5) which based on their claims and what I've read in the manual is an very significant improvement over Poser 4 in my humble opinion. Yet, even with all these additional features they have maintained a very reasonable price. I for one would prefer this registration procedure rather than an increase in price. I would also prefer that CL spend their efforts in making a better product for me to use, rather than having to worry about the theft of their products. If this protection scheme helps in those regards Im all for it. I would however like to have some of the details of this protection scheme. Is it based on a hardware number from my hard drive or is it based on my mother board or some combination of both? If its the hard drive is it the physical drive or is it partitioned based. Can I modify partitions without needing to call CL. I realize that CL must keep some details of the protection scheme secret or what would be the point. But a few official details would be helpful when planning to make changes on my system. I find it frustrating to find out stuff like this in the middle making the changes as it may make the job bigger than I anticipated.

JDexter: one Tip: change to Win2K or get Linux. I know what you feel ... I have called MS about 1,000,000 times and nothing get fixed. So I'm back on W2K and Linux. ... but who said you will have the same trouble with CL? just my 2 cents Chris

"You know what? If you don't like the copy protection system they've got, fine. DON'T BUY THE SOFTWARE." Isn't that what most people that don't like the copy protection are stating? That they won't buy it? As a matter of fact, stuff like this can take a company out of business. Sure, Microsoft is big and mighty and all that crap, but how long do you think the customers are gonna let companies f-word them in the ass? There will come a time when Joe Average will realize that he's been played and go like: "Hey! What the...?" and stop buying software from those companies. And what is CL doing? Same thing as Microsoft: treating their customers like dirt. Don't you guys remember what happened to Wordstar? Same thing. I just finished reading this thread and it's innimaginable the amount of people that are against the implementation of such tactics. CL, you KNOW you're gonna loose more customers than you're gonna gain with this, right? For trying to make a few extra bucks, you guys are gonna loose that much more. I, for one, came to the conclusion that if Poser 4 works fine for me, what do I need Poser 5 for, if it's gonna bring all that extra hassle? Hey, I can do hair and clothing in 3D Max (clothing with a FREE plugin called SimCloth), so why bother with Poser 5? That's one shiny nail you're hammering into your coffin, CL.

When them damm credit card companys send you your credit card and then make you call that 800 number to actavate it. Who do they think they are, making me call in like that! Next thing ya know, they will put my photo on the damm thing! How dare they protect themselves and me like that! Lets look at the facts shall we: If CL did not put in a good protection, they would have to bring the cost up to offset the warez and fraud. This is simply a part of bussness. Take your pick. This is one of the best ways for them to keep the cost down. So when we say that the honest have to pay the price, your right, but it could be a much higher price.. Maybe 2 - 3 times as high. We all have to pay the price of dishonest people everyday, it's to bad, but a part of life. Why lock your car? what do you think will happen if you don't? Come on, take a chance, Afterall the real car thief will just break the windows right? But somehow, you still feel the need to lock it, Why is that? Who are you realy trying to keep out? After all the hard work CL put into P5, they should protect it. I feel this is a very fair way to go.

pretty good Chris S Just staying caught up with current topics :)

hmmm... lukedesade ... Your on Max? As I know Max has the same protection. You need to register online (or what else) to get your auth code, isnt it? So whats wrong when CL does the same? Just a thought Chris

well said Spike :) Storm: same here ;) Chris

ohh ... btw ... Heya Spike - also long time no see ... how ya doing?

Chris, it not about whether or not CL's will be a hassle or not, it's one more company that requires an over the top activation method. It's copy protection squared when all of them go that route. I know about Win2K but for the $50 US addon price to a new system it is worth keeping XP and an operating system my users all know and work well with. If it was more expensive to add on the OS I would consider it. And there are copy protection schemes out there that do as good a job (mind you, none is perfect and all can be cracked, including this one, regardless of how many scientists worked on it) but don't cause the user the grief involved with Activation codes that work off of hardware based items. If the activation code worked off of something that followed the user it would work, but hardware is too transient to be useful. JDexter

Anthony, 3 installs! 3?!? Three? That's pathetic. What happens when I get to the 4th install (and I will)? What is starlet going to ask me? How is she going to know I'm not lying so I can install P5 on my mother's computer? What if I'm telling the truth that I bought a new computer but she THINKS I sound like someone who would lie so they can install it on my mother's computer? And please... serious question now... address international users. Say I'm a Japanese user. Will I have to call long distance to the US? What if I don't speak English? Is there going to be separate support in each country 247? If so how can teensy little CL afford that? Phoenix