Irrelevant. Answer me this, Scott: what does it matter if I "care" about the company, or any company, or not in business concerns? I don't have to care about a company to decide wether or not to spend my money with them. All that matters is wether the product does what I need it to do, wether it works as it's supposed to, and wether their business practices are designed to make it easier or less easy to do business with them of their products. If the answer to those questions is yes, they can make a sale. And repeated sales... If the answer to those is "no", then I may love the owner of the company like a brother, but that doesn't mean I'll spend money there. I don't particularly like or "care" about Microsoft, but Windows 2000 Pro WORKS, and I install it on systems I build for clients. Wether I like or "care" about MS or Bill G is irrelevant to wether the product suits the need of the client. I don't even know any one at Autodesk or Adobe enough to have an opinion on wether I care about the company, but if an architectrual or graphics client is looking for an architectural prog, or a image handling prog, I'll direct them to Studio VIZ or Photoshop if that prog will meet their needs. "Caring" about Adobe or Autodesk is a non existant factor. Same on computers... I'm friends with the sales manager at Tri-star and care about him as a friend, but if an out of state's client's needs are better met by Hypersonic, that's where I'll direct them for a system. Simple... a computer client is spending upwards of 5 grand on a workstation, what they need is paramount, and making sure they buy a system that meets those needs is what they pay me for. Selling them on a system that might not suit those needs because I "care" about the company that makes the other rig would be foolish and unethical of me. I'd go out of business in short order. Caring about Tri-star and my friend there means that I'll let them know why on occassion I'll reccomend a client elsewhere so they can make product changes to better suit my clients needs - not blindly overlooking a feature or lack of that might make it more suitable. I'm not going to let copyright protection schemes be my only criteria for wether a product will suit my needs - it won't ever be, there are too many other criteria - but do NOT expect me to buy into the fallacies and myths that people propogate about warez concerns, protection schemes, and program protection. They don't work, they will get cracked, as soon as it's cracked it becomes useless. Fact. People who believe there's any such thing as an uncrackable hardware or software lock are living in NeverNever Land. People who believe that any "protection scheme" is going to stop software piracy are living in the same place. People who believe that software locks are doing anything except making a company feel like it's doing something useful other than wasting money and aggravating customers are living in NeverNever Land. The biggest NeverNever Land is the accountants delusion that pirates will spend money on software, and that copies lost to warez will translate into dollars in a companies pocket - ain't a gonna happen, thieves steal, that's why they're theives. Money lost to the warez community is money that wouldn't have landed in a companies pocket to begin with. Counting it is counting unhatched chickens. Note, Scott: I have NOT said, ever, period: "Don't buy Poser 5". Or that I wouldn't buy it, or that someone else shouldn't. What I am saying is that I don't believe the rhetoric, and for people to make the decision on how to spend their money on very simple criteria: Will this do what I need it to? And can I personally live with the authorization? If the answer is "yes", buy away. Just don't make the choices based on warm fuzzies, and don't confuse bullshit about program protection with reality. Program protection is a sop to make programmers feel like they're doing something useful, and stockholders feel like the company is protecting their investments - it's bidness, as we say in Texas - pure and simple. It's not based on reality: I've spent way, way too much freaking time around software developement, computer security, programming, and anti-piracy endeavors - some of them you may recall while I worked for THIS company - to believe in warm fuzzy myths. You want to make an impression on me, prove my beleif that those are myths wrong with facts. "Care" and business have nothing to do with each other.

"Jack: Don't bite yer tongue, it's painful and it's to no real avail. ;]" Too true, too true... however it's not much different than trying to add or interject a voice of reason to a starey eyed mob. After our few hours of conversation about this, you already know what my opinion and concerns are about it. The Fact is this: Despite all of the BS being posted in this thread, nothing is going to change. The "fans" of Curious Labs will purchase Poser 5 and be the first on their block to own it. Whereas, the "conservative" will wait to purchase the product till they are satisfied that it is hard earned money worth spending. As well as, the "warez kiddies" will wait for the patch/crack and others will just wont purchase it, for whatever reason, be it the need to serious upgrade their processors and memory or hard drive space. Many are going to find or have reasons of why they are... or aren't going to buy Poser 5. Right now I am respecting the wishes and desires of Steve Cooper and Diane Griffith and refraining from saying too much about Poser 5, which certainly has it's good points and bad points. I will respect their wishes and wait till Poser 5 is released before posting my views. The only thing I will say, is I will NEVER be a beta tester for Curious Labs (or likely any software company) again, nor would I ever expect to be asked to be one. Not that anyone is going to give a two bit sh*t about my opinion(s) or even listen. People will buy it or wont. They will praise it or condemn it. Laugh or cry. Cling and clatter it doesn't really matter. You win some and you lose some I am sure Curious Labs like all companies knows and understands this. They'll come and reply to this thread and five more will take it's place... with or without Poser, the sun will still rise and fall, the Earth will still turn... it doesn't really matter. Jack

What you are really saying IB is that you want it YOUR way. Period! As a customer you have the right to feel that way. But if the company suffered financial losses just so you could have it "your way". I'm sure you would still sleep fine knowing it didn't cost you anything. I'm sure the losses they've had so far mean nothing to you. Heck.....It didn't cost you anything. Did it? Afterall...you got your way. So who cares about anyone else. Ahh well...that's business. Right? It's too bad you never had a personal interest in a company. There are actually business people working out there that are actually.....get this......friends with their customers. Can you believe it! It's crazy I tell ya! ;-) ScottA

At the risk of showing my intellectual capabilities as being less than those of a certain internet provider. I agree with Ironbear. Wow, that was really worth wasting the bandwidth for wasn't it? Oh well, it's a handy place to put a bookmark as well.

Scott. Do you care on a personal level about ALL the companies you deal with? Your clothes, your food, your household goods, your car? Really? And you expect people to believe that? LOL Sheesh, CL have been deified quite enough on this website without turning them into closet huggable buddies. They're a company out to make money that's all they are. That they take the time to visit these forums and spend time chatting with everyone is commendible and admirable but no more than good business. Make yourselves known to the customers and the customers will like you more. Jeez, it's PR, not a fuzzy grab your butt love munch.

"What you are really saying IB is that you want it YOUR way. Period! " Bullshit. If you're reading that, then you're not reading what I typed, bud. That's about what I expected though... I have a personal interest in a company. Two of them, actually. And I'm friends with my clients. Still irrelevant: they pay me to make good decisions for them, if I don't they'll not only stop paying me, we won't be friends for long. In this case though - you are flat wrong: based on the concerns in this and other threads, it's the company in question putting "getting their way" over the concerns f the customers I'm reading here. And they are doing so for logic that's based on fallacy: the fallacy that any authorization scheme will prevent piracy or do anything except inconvenience the customer. My way? I don't honestly care. I'll make the decisons on wether to reccomend software or hardware to my clients based purely on wether it will do the job they want it to do when I consult on setting up a graphics studio. If for what they need to do, Poser 5 is the best tool, I'll reccomend that they buy it. If it's not, I'll reccomend something that will do the job they need. THAT's being a businessman, and THAT is serving my customers needs - not basing reccomendations on "likes" and "dislikes". When they ask me about a product, they want to hear why it will or won't, not like or dislike or "because I like the guy who makes it". Now, care to tackle my other challenge, proving that mine and other peoples assertions on wether protection schemes actually work are incorrect? Or are you capable? Feel free. Take your best shot... But do your research carefully - I've been around software, computers and the 'net a long time, and I can dig up links and research to back my assertions. So have a few of the people I recognise in this thread that have extremely similar backgrounds to me... Assuming I don't get bored, yawn and wander off, natch. ;]

Scott, As a consumer what is wrong with wanting to "have it your way"? It seems to work other wise Burger King wouldn't use it as their trademark. Nor is there anything wrong with having an objection to an aspect of something that YOU BUY. chuckles Friends with customers... Steve and I are friends (or I'd like to think so, probably not anymore), but when it comes to the relationship BUSINESS COMES FIRST. Poser sales is what puts food on his and other families table over at Curious Labs. Warm fuzzies up the ass ain't going to fill the belly none. So, keeping that in mind and living in the real world in which we do, one would reason that if my company needs to make money to feed my family, I need to make sure that my company is going to make the best product out there so that it will MAKE LOTS of money and keep food on that table (and maybe buy me that Humvee I've always wanted). Yeah, I may have an established cult of followers to my product, but to get the good stuff, I am going to want to bring MORE customers to my door.... hmmm... how to do that... ah, yes, I will ask my friends and see what they think and how I can make more BUSINESS for my company. FACT: Mindless friggen sheep who worship everything about a company, friendship or not, doesn't help that company to expand it's product line. It doesn't help that company to make new sales... it is the people who sit there and offer opinions on that product, good or bad, that makes that product better... who better to ask than someone that "Wants it their way"? It's up to that company if they want to listen or not. I'll tell you this, my friendship with Steve Cooper has been strained over and over again because I tell him what I think, good or bad. His choice if he wants to use that opinion or not... he knows his business also and the money he has to spend on it... but I am sure my opinions have a TON more value than someone that will just spray drool all over the place as they chase the frisbee without asking why they are chasing it. In short: A friend will tell his friend if his zipper is down. Jack

I Think you guys missed the part where I said CL screwwed up again. A mindless sheep wouldn't say something like that. They are not good at PR. A mindless sheep wouldn't say that either. I don't like their new security system. Again. A mindless sheep wouldn't say that either. But instead of throwing myself on the floor and throwing a hissy fit crying unfair,unfair,unfair! I offered a compromise where we put up with for a while to help them make money. Then get rewared for our efforts. That's adults do. They work things out. You guys seem to just be concerned with gimme,gimme,gimme. I want!, I want!, I want! With no concern about anyone but yourselves. You do have the right to act this way Jack. But do you really like the way you look when you do it? Can you look in the mirror and say "I'm proud of acting like a spoiled brat"? You guys are going way past "I'm a consumer. And I don't like this". You're having all out tantrums. And you need a spanking. Or at least a time out. ;-) Then you try to cover it up by saying things like you didn't read what I said properly. There's nothing you can say IB that I don't know the real meaning behind it. I know you better than you know yourself. You're only kidding yourself. ScottA

"I know you better than you know yourself." Sheesh... Where's my shovel Talk about delusions of grandeur. It sure looks like your position here, has gone to your head.

I don't work here Norbert. Anything else you're an expert on? ;-)

Hmmm... I don't recall myself having a tantrum... hmm... let's see for a second... hold on, scrolling up for a minute.... Um... nope. No tantrum from me. Sorry. Nor do I recall acting like a spoiled brat... Nor have I gone past stating "I am a consumer and I don't like this"... in fact, I haven't stated ANY of my dislikes, except for the mentality of people attacking each other, and asking what's wrong with "having it my way" and thinking the sun rises and falls on Poser. I am also adult enough to know there is nothing wrong with "wanting it my way" and even know that I probably wont get it... but at least I can ask for it. Yes, you posted a possible solution. And I never said "ScottA is a mindless sheep", nope, no sir, read it again... I said that Mindless Sheep doesn't Help a company... which is a fact you yourself pointed out several posts above all of this crap. If anyone needs a "time out" it might be you.... in fact we all should. Before we do, let me leave one fact: Bear, Yourself and I DO or DID care about CL... otherwise we wouldn't all be here trying to defend or help it... look at it... we are all offering our thoughts and opinions to try and make things better... they may not mesh with each others, but slamming your friggen skulls against each other like a couple of Rams is a waste of time. The three of us don't agree... let's move on to the next phase of the bitching. :o) Jack

NP Jack. I'm not looking for a fight. I won't allow IB to try to lable me as a kissass just so he can justify his right to complain until he gets his way. You were caught in friendly fire. :-) ScottA

OK, so we have established that none of you can get layed. Read a book.

Sure, Scott... There's things I'm an expert at. Thinking I'm a mind reader, isn't one of them. I thought, at least at one point, that you were one of the "site mommies". Excuse me if I'm wrong.

NP Norbert. I used to be. ScottA

Looking around, reading thread then sighing Come on guys, Don't let this thread turn into accusations, and nasty comments, suppositions et all. Quit trying to antagonize others and just discuss your concerns about the subject. This is NOT a testosterone (sp) Muscle bound spitting match. CL doesn't need your assessments of others behaviors. JEEZE

"I won't allow IB to try to lable me as a kissass just so he can justify his right to complain until he gets his way." snicker Naw... you'll just blithely continue to read what you want to see hoping no one will notice you couldn't manage to refute points, just call names and avoid trying to back up points you can't figure out the logic or evidence to make good on. Suggest you reread looking for the words "kissass" in there. After almost two years in mods forum together, I think you know that if I call you a "kissass", boy, I'll do it straight out instead of hiding it in rhetoric or insinuating it. I've done it to bigger people. Now... if you want to take exception to "Bullshit", "living in NeverNever Land", or "icapable of actually reading what's said", feel free - I'll cheerfull own saying those cause I did. Oh what the hell... throw "Gee Scotty - Looks like you're the one having a hissy fit" in there - I didn't say it before, but I did just now. ;] I know what I said, and my wording and word choice is always precise. I also know what I didn't say - and so do most of the people reading it that have reading and comprehension skills. And as far as "getting my/our own way" I change my mind on refuting it: I agree with Kammerer - there's nothing wrong with customers expecting to get their own way. You don't like that? Don't run a business. As a customer... I don't HAVE to justofy my right to get my own way when someone is reaching for my wallet. Don't like that? Too freaking bad. Deal with it. As far as "not allowing" me to do anything... snicker

You know, I am willing to bet all of this will be for nothing come Tuesday when Steve comes in here and reads all of this crap. All of us knows Curious Labs cares about all of the members here and at the other sites. As I said in a previous post (long ways up), we know from the past that they listen to our comments and suggestions, weigh them and then act upon them. That is why I think that come Tuesday, they will read this, listen to all of the suggestions and then probably decide to rework the registration process, like they did with Pro Pack. Again, they may want our help in protecting their software, which I and allot of you have already shown we are willing to do. Either way, let's all just relax a bit and see what happens come Tuesday. There's already been too much blood letting in this thread as it is. Jack

"Shonner, Are you accusing the posters of this thread at being dishonest for voicing their displeasure at an iffy copy protection scheme?" Some of them, yes. BTW, it's more of a registration scheme for Curious Labs than a protection scheme for you. SHONNER http://www.shonner.com

Could be. And if they do decide that the authorization isn't worth the ill feelings it's generating in their customer base, more power to them. That'll be interesting to watch also.

This thread is now locked. Please wait until Tuesdy to contact Curious Labs. Lyrra