Reads like a mystery novel or maybe a game of Dragons and Mazes - lots of twists and turns and unexpected dead-ends. Or maybe a scanvenger hunt - that's it. Okay, I'm giving out extra points to the person who can find the waterfall.jpg mentioned on page 66 needed to do the little material rooms/reflection exercise. I tell yah, if you are not reading the manual and following along in Poser going through it step by step, you are missing out on a really great adventure! Well, I've come up for air, diving back in again for more squeels and thrills!

I agree about the manual :-)) But i think p5 is so powerful ( the matlab alone could use 200 pages) that it should be 3 times as thick. And some more examples.

As to the waterfall.jpg, it is stored on someone's computer. Unfortunately it is not on the CD's. Hopefully it will appear during the upcoming update.

Heya, I know I am being a bit sarcastic but thgeisel sort of summed it up. P5 really is powerful. I know once I get the hang of it, a few bugs get worked out, etc., it is going to really rock. But good instructions are important, and that is all the point I am trying to make. A lot of the frustration that I (and others) are having trying to learn the program could have been avoided. And a great many of the things we are calling bugs may just turn out to be user-related because we don't completely understand how to use the new features in P5 correctly, and that is due greatly in part to lack of good instruction. This makes for a lot of negative fallout, puts a lot of stress on the wonderful techs at CL who are having to deal with all the moans and groans. Plus it hits home to CL in general as bad PR. So much work went into making P5 great, and I don't want to take away from that. But when I read a manual that seems incomplete, with missing refrence material and what not, it tells me that it was not real high on the list of things to do. To me, that is a mistake, since no matter how great P5 is, or what cool features it has, the end-user has got to be able to understand how to use the software or else it is of little practical use. Now there are some really great sections in the manual, and I have learned stuff I didn't know. I only wish that tone had carried through in every section. But, I suspect, as I said, priority took issue and there was just so much else to get done, so the manual got rushed, and flaws and gaps were left intact. I know with time others will fill this gap with tutorials and what not, but that is not really how it should work.

for bryce we had something similar.Susan kitchens book"real world bryce" that covered all the things,that were only touched in the manual.And many tricks ,examples and so. it has about 1000 pages and cost about 60-70 $ so, who in the posercommunity takes the challange???

As long as it's not R. Shamms Mortier! ;) Kuroyume

Well, there is that Video/CD training course offer that came with Poser 5 put out by 3-Axis.com. Just $59.95! But I would like to hear from others who had used it first before I considered shelling out the bucks. Also, why should I have to when I have the user's manual that came with P5. Oh, yeah, I forgot...that's why. :O) Sorry, I don't really mean to be negative. But seeing the manual and then seeing the little flyer thingie for 3-Axis that came with P5 does make me wonder if it might not be interesting to know who the unnamed five, very diverse partnets are at 3-Axis. ~shrug~ Nuff said, I will climb down off me soapbox now. Cheers,

I totally agree with you, shadownet. I am sure that it was a lot of work to put the manual together, but I wish they had included more working examples and tutorials to explain exactly how to use these new features. It's not enough to give a technical description of what different buttons do. And I did not like the fact that the manual did not include this kind of help, but they included the ad for a training course that you would have to pay for! Sue

The solution to the problem, although disdainful, is to master the sucker by determined experimenting. In that way, you can 'thumb' the 'training course' and continue on your way. Just remember to keep notes on what you've discovered. I think CL was being clever too! Note the name, "Reference Manual". Not "User Guide" or "User Manual". And that's exactly what most of the manual reads like, a reference with little actual discussion on usage, approach, ins-and-outs. I'll use the aforementioned approach. Kuroyume

Heya, very astute observation there on your part. Clearly I was operating under a misguided notion. Thanks for pointing this out. What I have in front of me is an excellent reference manual. :O)

Since Nosfiratu does not appear to be online today to defend his work, I would note that while it is frustrating when the manual does not answer your question (I have felt that way myself), look at how thick it is, then imagine how thick it would have to be to provide a truly in-depth examination of all of the complex new additions to P5. I also think that by and large, the P5 manual is eminently more readable than the P4 manual or, for that matter, most software documentation. That being said, I tend to agree that perhaps some (but certainly not all) of the problems people are having are not bugs, but the learning curve imposed by P5... For example, I've certainly seen threads where people are complaining about the firefly renderer without realizing that you cannot simply use your P4 settings for maps, etc., and expect a good result. This is not to say that the firefly renderer is beyond criticism, e.g., those who take issue with the implementation of the reyes-type algorithm while leaving out support for features that improve the look of this method, and so on. I'm merely pointing out that while some of the problems with P5 are open and obvious (the missing waterfall jpeg, missing morphs, cr2's etc.), and some may result from either reuse of P4 code or P4 programmers, the introduction of an app as complex as P5 to a user base that by and large does not work with the more complex and expensive 3D apps (yes, I'm generalizing here, but I suspect I am essentailly correct, based on the relative paucity of posts in the forums for other apps here)was almost certain to generate a certain amount of frustration, even if it had shipped nearly bug-free. A more detailed manual might have eased some of that frustration, but it also might have surfaced that frustration sooner... Imagine what the reaction would have been if the the pre-release downloadable manual had been 5 times as long...

Perhaps, CL should consult the tutorial writers when revising the manual? Or, at least pay some heed to the tutorials that are created after the manual is released in order to underscore areas that the manual should cover? Generally, for most users, the technical specs and jargon do very little to explain the usage of any program; especially to those who may lack a general understanding of how programs work, etc. Perhaps CL can have a user-friendly (ie cover the areas that "average" users need to know; primarily functionality-based) manual and a tech savvy version (possibly contributed to or written by the developers) for those who wish to have the more "in-depth" information? IMHO, the manual would be better served if it was in the form of a tutorial. CL could outline a sample "project" (ie, Judy with a sword in a temple), start with the basics (ie, setting up the scene, bringing in Judy, basic posing, etc) and carry over the "project" from chapter to chapter incorporating Poser's features. This should not be hard to accomplish and they could put several of the "in process" files on the content CD so users can start off from any given point (say, on a per chapter basis). It seems to me that the majority of people learn better by doing than by seeing or just reading. This would give the users a hands on approach to actually using the features.

There's definitely something wrong. When I first started with P4 two years ago, I had never seen a 3D program before, and paid very little attention to the manual. Learning required work, but it was "smooth" because every new increment or feature worked predictably once it was understood; when something didn't work just right, there was always a sensible path toward correction. But none of that applies to the new features of P5. Every attempt to try something new either hangs the computer or fails mysteriously. When entire sections of a picture are weirdly distorted or missing, there's no obvious feedback loop. How do you reset the weirdness dial?

from Amazon.com "The Poser 5 Handbook (Graphics Series)by Shamms Mortier" "This item will be published in November 2002. You may order it now and we will ship it to you when it arrives" I love the effort that went into the Reference Manual, however I'm using it as that, a reference. So much to learn, hopefully come Nov. there will be another Xmas present. Didn't know if others had seen this listed, so I thought I'd post.

You make very valid points, Shadow. And with all due respect to Anthony, the manual is definitely incomplete. As I posted in my little rant on P5: "But the manual seems to equate to one of these deals: "Widget Temporal Analysis Toggle: Toggles the Widget's Temporal Analysis".

I believe Anthony was under a tremendous load and time constraint, and it's not his fault really. The fault lies in not hiring AT LEAST one other person to help write a manual for such a complex piece of software. That other person could have written the excellent "tutorial idea" as noted by Cyberstretch. I guess it really is only a reference, not a manual ... but that's not really an excuse. (Not that anyone was saying it was.)

Unfortunately, this is fairly common in the software industry ... thus, the plethora of "add-on" manuals available at Amazon.com. However, I'd have to say CL was really pushing it ... even under those standards, IMHO.

-Tim

Some good thought are being put forward, and that is all I was really after. Focusing a little attention and concern on an issue that I feel needs to be addressed. I am not looking to bash CL or anyone who might have had a hand in writing the manual, so I hope we can continue in the spirit of problem-solving and not start choosing up sides and pointing fingers of blame. That will not solve anything. CL needs some feedback from us - the end-user - apparantly as to what we need in the way of instruction in order to get the most bang for our buck out of P5. I realize that there is no way everything can be covered, but perhaps some basics features need to be looked at in more detail. To illustrate my point, take the example that sparked this thread. The little exercise on page 66, and the missing jpg file. Even if you supplement your own jpg file for the one missing, can you follow the example given there and get it to work? I couldn't. The only way I could get a reflection was to add an extra node - a step not given in the example. I had to insert the light/reflect node before the image map. This took me 30 minute longer to figure out than should have been necessary. And, I still do not know if what I am doing is the right way or not. I do get a reflection, but why does things like transmapped hair not render right? Is that really a bug? (One that the beta testes somehow missed?) , or am I just missing an important step somewhere? ~shrug~ So, I state the need for more detailed instructions.

Good feedback, thank you. BTW, we are working with a large number of artists within the community to bring forward a variety of tutorials. These should be starting to appear over the next few weeks. A good first example would be PhilC's excellent tutorial that accompanies his belly dancer outfit. Steve Cooper

~Doing the happy snoopy dance~ Steve, this is good news. I appreciate you taking the time to reply. :O)