I am looking at picking up character modelling for good...Since this might require a considerable amt of investment of time and money, I'd appreciate if all of you can provide honest (unbiased) 0pinions on your fav 3D char modelling s/w...I read a bit of Poser - any good?...thanx.

Poser is good for manipulating ready-made character meshes, but as far as I know you can't make your own meshes in poser.You need another application for that, like LightWave, MAX or Maya. I'm not sure about newer versions, but with 3D Studio MAX 4 you can't do character animation without bying extra software. I've only tried Maya a few times, but if you look in the Maya Gallery many of the characters are extremely good. Maybe it's because of the software, but I think that you can achieve similar results in LightWave if you have the skill. This wasn't much help, was it? Caron

No, I wouldn't say that...Your post has been informative...

I have been thru a few introductory lessons in MAX...but I wasn't quite impressed by the final product in relation to the amt of effort involved...however, i enjoyed Bryce a lot...are there any S/W around that combine great landscaping features such as that of Bryce along with 3D character modelling featurer such as the ones offered by MAX/Poser?

What's ur opinion on LightWave and Maya? What do you think of the Avatar Studio for 3D char modelling?

Any suggestions will be appreciated!

I believe (and I could be wrong) that the Avatar Studio is again short on creating original meshes. There are a few things linked at the top of the page, Wings3D comes to mind, where I have seen some very impressive things being created... best yet, these are Free applications. No matter what type of application (Max, Maya, Lightwave, etc.) you look at, it comes down to what type of modeling you want to do. Straight Polygonal, NURBS, SubDivided Surfaces. There are a number of approaches to modeling; some are better suited for the type of model. For instance, simple polygonal modeling is great of objects like Chairs and desks, but can really be a pain for something as complicated as a human face. Since you normally start with a Cube (this is why its also called Box-Modeling) or other base primitive and then start adding and manipulating the vertices from there. Every vertex is placed there, normally by hand. Now, combine this with Sub-Divided modeling, you can get some very nice results, without having to hand-smooth the mesh as you use your polygonal model as the control mesh (or cage). Then depending on the sub-division level, tension, CV handles and such, is how smooth, or rough, things turn out. NURBS modeling though can be very fast. Sometimes taking a lot less time to create similar results. While requiring more (IMO) thought into the final models composition, since NURBS are normally done in patches, then these patches are then stitched together to form the overall model. While a model can be made from a single NURBS patch, it would require a lot of planning on how to get all the bends/folds in just the right place. You may want to check into some of the styles of modeling and a package that supports multiple styles. Lightwave, 3D Studio Max, Maya, trueSpace (IIRC) all support these types of modeling these days. Rhino is an awesome NURBS modeling application, which I believe was looking at (or may have already added) Polygonal modeling tools to the package. While this doesnt answer your question: "Which app should I invest in" I believe asking these questions of yourself will help narrow down your list.. as well as help you make a more informed purchase when you do buy. :) These are only a quick overview of each of some of the styles, or techniques, of modeling. There are a lot of other things to consider, but this will get you started asking the right questions of yourself, and the applications you eval, to make sure you find a good fit. :) Most of these have Learning Editions, or Demo copies. I would suggest getting as many as possible. Because once you get past the tool sets, you have to deal with the interface. Some people like everything at their fingertips. Others like an open workspace, with the tools hidden until they need them. I like it somewhere in between. Also by getting Demo/Eval copies, you normally have to give them an E-Mail address. This gets turned over to marketing and can sometimes lead to great discounts as incentives to get you to purchase their product. :)

well, i'm a nurbie....i love them. why? because i can draw my own curves and loft them into a real good facsimile of my drawing. i prefer drawing over pulling points. since NURBS are normally done in patches, then these patches are then stitched together to form the overall model. While a model can be made from a single NURBS patch, it would require a lot of planning on how to get all the bends/folds in just the right place actually, this is incorrect. this is a description of "patch" modelling, which eludes me. some folks can pull those sphere and cubes into great things. you might be one of them. me, i can't much do anything...although i have been experimenting on spheres for heads, and it has been okay. try rhino...i use it and love it. there is a free demo version which is fully functioning, but, only has 25 saves. another good organics modeller, but has a strange interface, is amapi...you can get the full 4.15 version free....just hit the link to it on the modelling banner, above. i have played with metasequoia...another good, free one. play with the free ones, and, hopefully you will find the type of modelling best suited to your talents. good luck, poppi

I must agree with Poppi that Rhino is a GREAT modelling program. However, NURBS modelling can be difficult to use when you want branching meshes, like the human body with arms and legs. If I'm wrong, it would be nice to know how you handle this, Poppi. Subpatching handles branching meshes nicely. My favourite is LightWave. I like its interface, it's less cluttered than for example MAX, and you learn surprisingly quickly where to find everything. By the way, concerning the question about landscapes and character models, have you seen the ANS Graphics website? If not, take a look at it. There you will find beautiful pictures with landscapes and characters. They are made in Bryce and Poser, I believe. The address is http://www.ans-graphics.co.uk/ Caron

P.S. As good as Rhino is, it only has a very basic renderer. Again, even if you use poser, rhino and other specialized apps, you need LightWave, MAX or Maya (or the equivalent) to import your work into and to create your images with lighting, effects and everything. Caron

yes, i don't care for rhino's renderer. i would LOVE to have lightwave, and, it is up things to buy when i have more money. i've been using bryce, since version 2, and, get some pretty nice renders with that. now, that i have learned to make my own stuff....i can export with as few polys as possible speeding up my render time. as for making things with "limbs"...i do regular body parts...then the limbs....blending trial and error that it is can be forced into working. i just like to be able to draw what i am making. of course, they don't look as precise as some of the polygon models, out there, but, i don't care....i am more after feelings, than precision.

well ur arguments on the pros and cons of these various SW has been very illuminating...appreciate all that...a couple of queries however....it seems after all the rhinos' and the likes it finally comes to a MAX or Maya to get the fully rendered and touched-upon chararcter model...since MAX offers various methods of modelling, is one better off getting started with it? where exactly does the difference b/w Poser and MAX lie? Also what i would like to understand is why do modellers' want to start with basic shapes and finally coming upon the final body via patch-modelling or whatever...i say this in the light of the fact that Avatar Studio offers ready made models that can be manipulated in several ways all the way from the shape of the nose to the waist to eye width etc etc...how different can a 36-24-36 figure be?...am i missing a point here?...advise pls.

For me, it the freedom to create what I want. For some its the integrity of knowing it's purely their creation. I have been unable to model a complete person yet, so I do use Poser to get my stock human forms. I export out the basic mesh from Poser and take it into my program of choice, then manipulate it from there. The biggest thing you have to get past is that Poser & Avatar lab only allow you to mold the mesh. Pushing and pulling on it here and there to get the look you want. It is not modifying the underlying mesh. That is, it is not changing the poly count. You remove your magnets and tweaks, and its back to the stock person you started with. With creating your own mesh from the ground up, you can decide every aspect of it. Will she be Anime style? Or an A.I. robot, with only a face. The sky is the limit when you do your own models. Ive started trying to do one thing and part way through the process, I see the model from a different angle and poof, the project veers way off course and Im working on something totally different. Thank God Im not doing this professionally, as Id have been fired for not completing the task at hand. ;) When all is said and done though, do you really want to model you own meshes, or just use them as props in the final work? Are you doing character modeling, or scenes where the character is only a small part of the overall feel? There is nothing wrong (IMO) in having and using Poser to compliment other packages. As I said, I do it when I need a good human model. Everything else I create, until my skills get good enough to produce my own people, then, well, Poser will start collecting dust. ;)

wow!...that post made the most sense to me...thanx buddy!...and when u turn professional and they fire u for letting go of ur own individual artistic style then lemme know...we'll get u hooked up somewhere;) alrite alrite...back to bizness first...wats keepin u from building ur own meshes from ground up in MAX...is it that u have yet 2 familiarise urself with all the innumerable modifiers? With regards to you playin with the mesh exported from Poser, doesn't Poser offer any tweakers and modifiers? Is Rhino good for modifying a mesh exported outta Poser? What s/w would u recommend for this purpose? Last question...best book/website to start learning MAX from the ground up?...is the 3d MAX Bible any good?...ur suggestions will be appreciated!

Lets see here. First off, I don't use Max. I have played with it, but don't have the $$$ to get it myself. Friends have let me play around and such, but until I get the bucks, I'll stick with the program I use now. And even when I get the bucks... who knows, I might just stick with trueSpace, since I know the interface and location of all the stuff. The reason I haven't done my own humaniod meshes is, well, purely talent. I still have to have the time to sit down and learn the ropes when it comes to a good humanoid mesh. There are a lot of little details that have to be taken into account. This last year has been... hard.. on me. Both in terms of getting time to work (play) with graphics, and time to just explorer and learn. Poser does offer Magnets, and a few other things, like Morph targets and such, but again, you remove those, and you're back where you started generally. (I believe some advanced things will allow you to modify a mesh ?!?, haven't dug THAT deep into poser). Rhino is a great modeler, but unless they've added something recently, it's strong point is NURBS. The Poser models are pure Polygonal. You'll need something eith a strong set of Poly editing tools. (Max, Lightwave, Maya, etc.). Even though I don't use Max, I do have the "Inside 3D Studio Max" book. Many of the techniques used in one application can be carried over to another. As long as you know what each one calls their tool. Then you can pretty much 'translate' them around for your needs. Best suggestion is to get a demo copy of anything and everything you can get your hands on. From there, see which interface works for you. Lightwave kicks my backside. Maya, I have yet to really play around in. 3D Studio comes close... but trueSpace really works for me. And it happens to be one of the cheaper ones out there. While many consider it "lower class", we trueSpacers' do pretty well with it. ;)

I have an old version of max....i tried but it was really hard for me to learn. i think some modellers "fit" individuals better than others do. you CAN model humanoids in rhino. i started one, a really ugly parody of vicki for a challenge on the character creators board....but, did not finish. it was not really that hard. check some of the forums and the galleries and see what folks are up to with the various apps. you may be pleasantly surprised.

Attached Link: http://www.annsartgallery.com/ei.html

its worth it to try the demos, especially if you want high end stuff. You can get demos of Rhino, TS, and just about all the mid level modelers. Softimage is probably the best from the demo that I have (you have to order the demo and wait). Lightwave has a demo that you can order as well. After looking at all the modelers, I picked EI Universe. The 3d toolkit from www.universe3d.com comes with AMorphium Pro 1.2 and tons of training videos on a 4 cd set for $200. Can't beat the price. Models save in .fac format. Amorphium will open that and when you're done morphing, can save in .obj, etc. Here's a screen shot.

Reason why I suggest demos is because most of the high end modelers have splines, extrudes, nurbs, ubernurbs, bezier, skins, etc, etc, but some are more intuitive on the interface than others. LW for example has text buttons so you know what tool you are selecting. EI Universe has text categories and icons that represent the individual tool in the category. Easy enough to learn. Rhino and Maya are icon only and you have a lot of symbols to memorize. TS and Amapi have unique interfaces that some love and others hate. So take it for a test drive first before buying, and test drive them all to compare features.

My 2 cents, IncliningWirefree... Before you go completely down the road of 3DSMax, try the demos. Please. Maybe it's because we are only talking about modeling, but the one thing that we are overlooking completely in this discussion is when actually using the characters. Aside from creating the mesh geometries in your application of choice (Amapi, Animation:Master, Carrara, Cinema4D, LightWave, Maya, Max, Rhino, TrueSpace, XSI... et al.), you have to consider how you plan to move and animate them. When it comes to using characters, Poser has the distinct advantage of providing both a base model (which can be modified via morphs and part replacements) and the ability to move them about in 3D space. In all of the other programs, once you build the geometry (of points and polygons or splines) you still have to "rig" the figure before you can move it about. You need to do the old "shin-bone-connected-to-the-thigh-bone" and determine which polygons are affected by which bones, which are then connected to which other bones in a hierarchical arrangement. This is a time consuming task, but a necessary consideration when modeling your character. How you plan to move the figure later on (bend knees, flex muscles, etc.) pretty much determines how you will model it to begin with. (I myself don't do character modeling/rigging because it scares the beejezus out of me). 3DS Max comes with Character Studio to help with this. LightWave can do this with its built-in bones features. Project:Messiah is a stand alone application that plugs seamlessly into LW. Maya... well that's what a lot of the big time production houses use. Because of the big bucks associated with all this highend software, and the equally expensive character animation modules and plug-ins, a lot of modelers will create their characters in their application of choice and then bring them into Poser for rigging. I've seen figures created with LightWave (aren't Vicky/Mike modeled by DAZ and created in LW), Amapi and Rhino brought into Poser successfully. You also might want to have a look into Poser Pro Pack. Not sure if that is rendered obsolete by the release of Poser 5. Sorry for talking too much. Hope that was useful. :o) - M

You also might want to post this in the Character Creators forum. - M

Some may laugh but if you haven't tried Anim8or, you might be missing something good. The more I use it the more I like it. If you do a web search you will see some really great stuff including characters. I too started wanting to do characters. I wanted to make my own MS Agent Characters. I know you can get something a lot more complex for $600 to $800 but you won't find much that is better than Anim8or for FREE. Don't mind me, I'm just a nubie.

Yup... Anim8or, Wings3D and a few others are linked up there at the top ^^, in the title area for this forum. They are great places to start... and hey.. if you don't like 'em, you're not out anything except your download time. :) No customer service to talk to, to try and get your money back. :) I've seen a lot of really cool things being done with Wings3D as well. Always worth a look.