There is no better way of improving yourself other than accepting critique. There is no better judge than the enlightened leniant kind, the one that sees the faults but takes them as simple growing pains of an emerging artist.

Every time I create something with Bryce, I post it on a message board that I share with friends. My latest piece of work, which can be found here was therefore dully posted on that board for people to look at and critique. Aside from the models (which I've worked for some 20-25 hours on alltogether), the image is a standard bryce sky, a water plane that can be barely seen, and a little tinkering with the materials lab and photoshop (slightly different coloration and some 2% noise for added reality). Nothing out of the ordinary in my mind, especially since I was advertising the free models more than the actual picture.

Regardless of that, one of the critics pointed me at this image. He simply liked it more. Being the merciless critic that I am, I immediately said that he was nothing more than a hick. I think the form I used was: it's like a hick and a roman looking at a botticelli, and the hick saying, 'damn i don't like that, my wife can draw one d'em prettier pictures.'

Case in point, the guy's brycean drawing is something extremely simplistic and newbyish in my opinion. It would take me 5 minutes to re-create it. The same point can be applied to this contest. There's good, and there's mediocre. I personally can't stand people coming in and manifesting their dislike in front of hours of work in favor of something much less developed and simplified. I WANT people to tear my creations to shreads, because I expect myself to get better. My point, I guess, is that there is more to art than it being just in the eye of the beholder. It's also in the fact that the critic has to know what the hell he's talking about. Am I being a hypocrite? I don't know, I'm simply stating my opinion.

Drac
ICQ: 8400444
http://www.freewriters.ca

oh, just as an added apologetic, this is in no way a cry for attention for my own contest entry, because it is mediocre in every respect.

First of all I wonder where did you get the insight to determine if some work of others is good or mediocre? I read your comment on the voting page of the September challenge and it striked me as dis-respectful to all the people who did their best. Saying that just one entry is worth mentioning and all the others are more or less 'useless' is also rather short sighted. It is an open contest and the nice thing is that everyone can join in. If you don't like the way the challenge works stop sending in your work as an entry. The rules are to give 3 entries a voting rate. I suggest you use that right to the full or don't vote at all. When you were poorly commented on your work as you discribed above there is no need to take it on the people who enjoy the challenge for different reasons. Don't you see that you do the same to them as the one individual did to you? This is MHO and I hope that I came across. My English is not as good as it should be (sorry for that).

So, let me get this straight. You want criticism, but you reserve the right to insult those who offer it? I wouldn't go calling people hicks or anything else because you don't happen to like their criticism. Part of taking criticism is that you take it all. If a critic just happens to be ineloquent enough to say merely, "I like this other one better," then I would go and look at that other one and see if you can figure out why.

No it seems perfectly intelligible, but I still disagree. I didn't like most of those creations. But the point is NOT to discuss the current contest, but simply to keep the discussion in the realm of the abstract.

that's not eloquence, spanky, that's manifesting your opinion. and after 2 years of bryce, yes, i reserve the right to be critical to start-ups. just as i expect pro's to be with me.

I'd call you a hypocrite if I thought you'd be able to take the criticism, but I'll refrain.

"But the point is NOT to discuss the current contest, but simply to keep the discussion in the realm of the abstract." That's a nice one. Lets all go to the "abstract" realm. Your comment was not abstract at all and pointed at people who are enjoying their work and send it in for a challenge. Don't hide that by moving to an 'abstract'level.

Hyperborea - what's wrong with your English? Seems fine to me! draculaz - first off, you seem to be missing the point of the Bryce contest. Or rather, the point as I see it. For me, it's just a bit of fun. I'll take up the challenge and knock something out just for people to look at. I don't spend 20hrs on it (I barely spend 2hrs) but it's just a laugh. I think all the entries are great - some better than others, but who cares? I don't! I think I've a realistic idea of how good (or otherwise) I am at art, so the fact that someone might pass up on some quick "sketch" I did in favour of shiny balls over water doesn't perturb me in the slightest! Each to his (or her) own. There's more to art than complexity. I agree, of the two images you posted, yours is the better one. But having said that, it's not really a piece of art, it's more a showcase, as you suggest. Nothing is really happening, it has no focus, no message, the POV is bland, the colours so-so. In other words, have you considered that perhaps the critic decided he found more meaning in the other picture? Although it was less technically accomplished, maybe he just liked it more? I can (just) see your point regarding critics, that being that some people wouldn't know art if it kicked them in the ass. But so what? This site doesn't claim to offer pure and professional critique. It's a community. There are some exceptional artists here and there are beginners and everything in between. They all have a right to comment (as long as it's a genuine comment and not a troll or a p#ss-take). If you want to improve via critique, why not just look at who comments on your work and either ignore the comment (if it's say, from a newbie and you don't think it's helpful) or take notice of it (if it's from an experienced artist). My last attempt only drew 2 or 3 comments, but as one was from Roobol I didn't much care that few other people had commented - I'd got the helpful feedback I needed. Having said that, I take notice of ALL comments on my work, because at the end of the day, artists rarely produce work solely for OTHER artists to enjoy, they do it for general consumption.

RAther than insinuate that the other entries are useless why don't you go ahead and put your money where your mouth is an critic each and every one?? I would like to hear your comments on mine. I am a newbie and always appreciate Helpful criticism. Hyporborea, your english is very good!

lol colette1! I'd like to see that too!

Colette, that is awesome! I wish I'd thought of that! Yes, draculaz, critique mine too!

I remember you now. In fact, I still have the Instant Messages that you sent me after I posted that critique. They'd probably make more sense if I still had the reply that I had sent between them though. If I had recognized you sooner, I probably would never have posted in this thread. Oh well.

Well, all I can say is that I've been at this Bryce thing for a long time, in fact, here's an animation I did with Bryce2 back in 1997. I rendered it frame by frame because Bryce didn't animate back then. No, it's not fine art. But it's a decent illustration of an insert.

But I don't see how that's relevant. There are a lot of new comers to Bryce that blow away long time users. The whole "n00b" syndrome is pretty dumb, and bears little meaning in the real world. It's geek speak for "well, I'm not better than you, but I was here first, so nyah nyah." I can also tell you that I hold a Bachelor's degree in Fine Arts. But ultimately, I don't think every critic that you find at Renderosity or at any other webstie are obliged to give you their credentials. In fact, most use nick names and will not even tell you their name. Welcome to the internet.

In my experience dealing with you, since June, 2002, it appears that you're just an angry person. You don't handle criticism, and it's only made worse because you seem to lash out with insults at people that are genuinely trying to help you. Prime example: "sparky" What's that about? Why call me sparky? It appears that it's designed to demean me and insinuate that I'm too young for you to take seriously. Why would you write that?

I can't solve your problems, but I'll still offer advice in good faith: don't lash out at people that are trying to help you. It's sophomoric. If you don't want criticism, then post images without allowing comments. Afterall, if there's nothing that you want to hear beyond ego-stroking because you already know it, then there's no need to waste other peoples' time asking for comments. It just makes you appear as a know-nothing-know-it-all that's trolling for some pointless debate with strangers on the internet.

resistance begets resistance, ETC.

john, i'm by no means an 'angry person'. if you notice, that is actually the only political sort of creation i've ever done. and it had its reasons. now am i not allowed to publish my views, political or otherwise? i'm sorry, i didn't know it.

I do this stuff for fun - I post the pics I'm happy (but never satisfied!) with in the main galleries (Bryce and Poser), but started doing the challenges because they make me tackle subjects I otherwise wouldn't bother with (I hate doing 'space' pics, for example, but learned a few things from this month's challenge). I'm not bothered about who likes what I do and who hates it - or who says so! I just enjoy the experience of creating - it's what I do to relax. I can see that your works take some effort and thought, but they're far too overtly technical for my taste - I like the 'soft' side of Bryce - couldn't care less about Boolean structures or how long it took to build them. In fact, I think that any pic which succeeds by virtue of the complexity of its construction - erm - doesn't. To me, art is about communication - it's implicit, not explicit. Skill is secondary - communication is primary. I don't call what I do 'art' (which is just as well, I hear you snigger!)- it's 'making pictures with the computer'. In other words, the medium is, in my case, more the point than the content. I wish it were otherwise, but I don't have the talent. Doesn't mean I can't appreciate it in the works of others, though, or acknowledge their right to have fun 'creating' - no matter how good or bad the results! You said, "My point, I guess, is that there is more to art than it being just in the eye of the beholder. It's also in the fact that the critic has to know what the hell he's talking about". Of course, that's not true. Critics don't have to know anything - what you post at Renderosity is open to criticism by anyone who's a member. Perhaps you're trying to say that you only value the opinions of those who you consider to 'know what they're talking about'. Fine - that's your privilege, and I have no argument with it. However, I reserve the right to differ in my opinion as to who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't! In other words - the way you feel about criticism is perfectly valid, but don't expect everyone else to feel the same way!

I see that's the only political one. And I never once commented on your political views. I offered artistic criticism, if you read into it a political agenda, I'm sorry, but it's not there. Perhaps you reacted to what you were anticipating rather than what you got.

Okay, Drac, enough is enough. Not one person here who replied to your "political creation" has told you that you could not voice your opinion/views. I think it is just in the way you have done it. MAybe you should take some time off and learn the "fine art" of critcism. You may not be an angry person, but there sure does seem to be a lot of anger coming from your posts. once again, please feel free to practice your "helpful criticism" on my picture.

I can understand why someone could like the "Lunar Rings of the Moon" better than your image. Maybe it means more to them. I do agree that just saying "I like this better is a worthless comment". You say "it's like a hick and a roman looking at a botticelli, and the hick saying, 'damn i don't like that, my wife can draw one d'em prettier pictures." It's not all about skill. A Picasso painting didn't require as much painting skill as a Rembrandt but that doesn't make Picasso a lesser artist.

Anyone is free to express thier views, but if you put down someone else because of their opinions, that is called "flaming," which is not allowed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ranking User Helpful comments for improvement Nice draculaz the big planet looks a bit crappy, but besides that, it's beautiful! :) Here is an example of your "criticism". No advice on how to fix it or anything else, Just "looks a bit crappy". Though you did add, it's beautiful, which it is, it doesn't quite take the sting away from the crappiness part, you know? No one is saying you can't have your say, just be more constructive and sensitive to what ppl are trying to accomplish here at Renderosity.

somebody certainly got out of the wrong side of the coffin this morning

THANX ALL
FOR TAKING THE TIME TO LOOK AT MY ENTRY
ITS ALWAYS NICE TO SEE THAT PEOPLE STOP A MINUTE TO SAY A KIND WORD IT MAKES EVERYONE FEEL GOOD INSIDE

ROCHELLE (rOCH222)

hEY DRACULAZ DOSENT THE ATTENTION MAKE YOU FEEL ALL FUZZY INSIDE

draculaz ( My point, I guess, is that there is more to art than it being just in the eye of the beholder ) I disagree with that, without the eye of the beholder art is basically useless except for the creator, who may of released some stress or anxiety or expressed some emotion while creating it. But the real pleasure the artist receives is when they view their finished work ( eye of the beholder ). Without the eye of the beholder art has no real value. It stirs no emotion or it tells no stories. The beauty about art is one artist painstakingly precisely applies every brush stroke to the canvas, and another walk up and splatters some paint on a canvas. One might become rich and famous and one might starve to death. All depending on the eye of the beholder. My point is, from the days of cave drawings to this age of digital technology. Art always has been and always will be dependent on the eye of the beholder. As for people critiquing and comparing work with ones, you may not feel aren't worthy, or as good. All I can say is, get used to it, because that's part of being an artist.

I Like your "Screw Lando..." pic. Great color, and I liked how the shapes were recognizable yet kinda abstract at the same time. Why did your one critic like "LunarRingsoftheMoon" more than your pic? You said it yourself "He simply liked it more". It all comes down not always what artwork has been more developed, but to what everyones personal likes and dislikes are. That's all there was to it, period. Did I like your "Screw Lando" pic? Yes. Are there some members' works I like better? Sure. Why? `Cause I like Dragons even more than sci-fi...sometimes it has nothing to do with development. Your opening statement is great, alomst poignant, then...you turn around and not only display yourself as nothing like your statement, but actually don't even want that kind of person critiquing your own art. Completely illogical. Call the other members by their screen name, do not call them "Spanky". "After 2 years of bryce, yes, i reserve the right to be critical to start-ups". - That is an untrue statement, believe me. You mention the Challenge, and it is a Challenge not a "contest". You mention the Challenge with disdain for a "broad range of mediocre creations". Do not do that anymore. You are allowed your freedom here. But there are grey areas, areas where your opinion, draculaz, needs to be (as you yourself say) "lenient". I ask you to please temper your critique, and if you want to play the Challenge, then please do, but follow the few rules. (go vote for 3 not just 1) And, as the cheesy saying goes, "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say it". Take that to heart. I'v deleted your post in the vote thread. I would like it if you could vote again, I know you can find two others that are worthy enough for placement. These members come here to the Bryce Forum for instruction and helpful critique. They are not your or anyone elses underling slap bag. And, if they turn out to be, well then, that's why I'm here... AgentSmith

Good for you AgentSmith. I respect that position. Alot.

Well said A.S - Infact lets have 3 cheers hip hip.......

Hooray

If you want to get slapped go over to 3dfightclub

Yeah...lol, 3dfightclub pulls no punches!

What a forum. I believe anything that is created, no matter how simple or complex is always within the creators vision. I unless directly confronted with the question, never criticize anything, I have opinions but express them as a question of direction. I really do not see how anyone can be a critic. If they are, then they are not competent to do the work themselves. Or just severely jealous and their ego has been insulted. We are all at different levels and should remember that. I just started working with Bryce and truthfully, I can only render the sky, water, and the ground. I can do what is given in the program, but to me I am not satisfied with my stuff, therefore would never reveal it to the masses. There are some who have not matured enough to be commenting and should refrain from doing so. Xeno66

A.S. I think you have covered it the best.:)

3dfightclub is the strangest art site I've ever seen. A 15 minute goat? WTF?

The first rule of 3dfightclub: you do not speak of 3dfightclub.... ummm oops

I don't really know or care what anyone is talking about, I just felt like making a statement, since this thread is so popular and I just want to fit in. Feel free to critique my idiocy. Thanks.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=256258&Start=1&Sectionid=4&WhatsNew=Yes

...A Hick

LMAO I love it!!! I like this one too.:)))

Well, everything has pretty much been said, but I think I may the only member left that hasn't posted to this thread yet, so here's mine: I like both of the original pics that were being discussed. Each for different reasons. And from what I can see, both took thought and time. Both deserve to exist. But, being born and raised in rural Tennessee, I guess that would qualify me to be an official hick, so I'm not too sure my opinion is valid. You know, sometimes it seems we're the only ethnic group that is still OK to hold up to public ridicule. Don't feel too bad for us, though. We all thought the Beverly Hillbillies was funny, too. And to echo some statements from earlier in this thread, I hope my English is not too hard to understand. :^) Thank you, Agent Smith.

No tjohn, I just logged on to this thread, and I'm with Johnpenn on this point, not all newbies to Bryce are unaccomplished. I personally have been exhibiting in the art community offline for around 25 years,(oopps my age is showing) I have a Masters in Fine Art and Art History, a Bachelors in Computer Science, I have paintings all over the world, I have gallery representation on and off, and I have a portfolio of awards, however, YES, I am new to Bryce, and in that respect a "newbie"! What right do you have to dismiss anyone's artwork because they are new to a software? THIS KIND OF ATTITUDE JUST CHAPS MY ASS! I apologize to everyone else for this outburst, I usually keep my feelings in reserve, but it hit a nerve...Agent Smith you have abundant patience...

P.S. Draculaz, I will be paying close attention to your work...

tmac87, I voted for your image to be in the Hot 20. Conceptually, it's brilliant.

Wow, what a thread.

Being a n00b, I don't usually post much because I don't yet feel I have much to contribute except to ask questions to better refine my skills and learn.

Many here, have already stated what I find communities such as this, to be about: a support system offering each of us the opportunity to grow and learn as artists without threat for our choices in how we bring our visions into being. If you receive feedback in any form, whether positive or critique, be grateful. Grateful that someone took the time - that someone at least noticed your work and imparted their take, be it good or bad. The one caveat is to have the maturity to utilize some tact in how you impart your comments. This is key. I also agree with Colette's very wise words above. If you are going to critique a piece, at least offer up some advice for the artist to ponder in order to improve. Each of us then gains an opportunity to both grow and learn as artists.

Not everyone here garners this opportunity, so when it happens, treat it as a gift, accepting it in the spirit it was given, which hopefully includes a modicum of tact. Then use that impetus to move on to your next piece of work while harboring the support this group offers as inspiration.

Since I can't add much to what's already been stated so well, I'll leave you with a little something:

It is a moment -- a lifetime -- when thoughts intertwine and braid themselves into strengthening ropes of hope and vision. A hand reaching out ...

Peace.
~Arry

Draculaz, After looking at your gallery, all I can say is . . . I no longer fear winning the Giant Poser Box. - TJ

This thread reminds me of the Whistler v Ruskin case. There is a common misapprehension that a picture that takes 20 hours is intrinsically "better" in some way than one that takes 2 hours. 'Tain't so. I can see exactly why the critic referred to preferred the second picture. It may use only simple elements that could be put together quickly, but in terms of structure it's rather good, whereas the first picture needs better composition, despite the obvious effort that went into the model-making.

I really like draculaz's coloring of his lando pic, though. I'm a sucker for the brown/orange/rust/sepia colored pics. Oh, I'm originally from Illinois, so count me in on the hick thing too. Even had an slight accent, lost it fairly quickly after the move to CA. I've made models that took 3 weeks to build, and I've done (abstract) bryce scenes that I took literally 5 minutes to make. Sometimes those 5 minute ones outshine my 3 week ones. Keep rendering everyone. AgentSmith

Does being born in so Fla and raised in southernmost MIssissippi make me a hick???? If so, I'll be gosh darned... I never knew! LOL

Illinois!! You hick you, us people from Indiana ain't no hicks. Wow what an interesting thread. You know constructive critisism is a good thing but helping them out rather than just saying its crap would go a long ways. Now there is art I like and I don't like someone up above mentioned picaso and other famous artist I really don't like any of the older oil paintings, I realise they are worth a lot of money, but not to me. Because I personally do not like the style. I am not going to criticise thier work because I do not like it. As far as the 2 pics I like the lord of the rings one much better. However I am not all that into Sci-Fi scenes. It is a personal choice. Same with the people that do the super hero images, I personaly do not like them. I do not think that now if someone asked me to critique it I could do so only half heartedly. Now there are artists out there that I can sit back and look at every single detail of their pic over an over again. Toxic Angel is an excellent artist I enjoy looking at his artwork. However he has some scenes he does that I don't like, it is not that the quality of the art is not there because it is, it is the fact I just do not like the subject. In fact there is only one artist that I can look through his entire gallery and like the subject of every single image. I can't explain why, maybe it is the hick in me, but I love hobbit's gallery. It is more of a traditional art some fantasy some reality. Some of his pictures and stories along with his pictures I feel like I can go to those places. Art is different as far as what people like for each person. however I am not going to condemn your art because it doesn't grab me the way hobbit's does, in fact I very seriously doubt any space scene could grab me that way. http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Y&Artist=hobbit

Well, I haven't put my opinion down yet, and since I don't want to be left out, here it goes. Firstly, I grew up in small town in Washington state, that may or may not make me a hick. Secondly, I have very little training in any sort of art, but that doesn't stop me from having fun, whether it is drawing on my own, coloring in a paint by numbers type thing, playing with clay or wood, or crashing my computer six times a day using a graphics program. Thirdly, my whole reason for putting my computer art in here is that it is SAFE. Most people won't comment unless directly asked, so I can get used to the idea of other people seeing what I've done before I start asking for specific help. Finally, since I qualify as a newbie, I would like to say that the length of time you spend doing something does not necessarily mean you have all the answers. Sometimes someone without preconceptions can provide really good insight. I will continue to enter these contests even though my art (despite the hours spent on it) may not win because I need the practice, dammit. :) Lin

I forgot to mention I was raised on a farm slopping pigs and cleaning up cow crap, from the hills of Pennsylvania, you know, where Loretta Lynn was from. Does that count... Anyway so far, All I can get is about the same as Drac's most commented picture in about 30 minutes. If you ask me, the Lunar Moon looks more like it had a lot more effort and time put into it with the reflection and polishing and general idea. The prior seems out of focus, the models look good, but the background blur makes it look 20 minutes instead of 20 hours. It would be more impressive if the noise is reduced and polished a little maybe some space dust clouds? Sharper stars, brighter moons, orange clovers. But who am I to say, First, I just started working with Bryce and two, I do not know the mind of the creator or the direction we are taking. Apply the sharpness of the tongue to the picture and we can stand up and applaud. Loudly Out of my ordinary to comment, but I did not look at what we were discussing. so I came, I saw, I opened my mouth out came an opinion. X

X, better watch out - could be habitforming.LOL. As far as I'm concerned, comments good,bad or otherwise are always welcomed by me - as long as its about the art work and not intended to start a ruckus. - TJ