OK, before this gets into a "let's bash the vendors" thread which I do not believe is the reason that Ironbear started this thread. Please, don't label all the vendors with the same tar brush. There's no proof at this time that the person(s) responsible for the collection of emails that Ironbear has are vendors. Just a suspicion. Anyone can make the statements presented in those mails. Even some dippy little troll who thinks it's clever to spam and lie. We don't KNOW that it's vendors, it's an assumption. OK, a fairly safe one but still an assumption. Most of you in this thread know some of the vendors. I certainly wouldn't label many of them with the selfish nature of those in Ironbear's initial post. So please, let's not turn this into a generalised attack against vendors, that would be grossly unfair on those who do honestly offer a good service and value for money and do not attack freestuff or the providers of freestuff. Let's remember that while it is freestuff that attracts people into the site, it is the store that funds the site. It's a symbiotic relationship that I like to think most understand.

"but some of us have to make a living from selling poser goods" This person must live in Italy. This is why I LOVE Capitalism! Capitalism rocks! Of course Capitalism (a society's superstructure) needs an Infrastructure (Judeo-Christianity) - or you'll have enron type stuff, but if ya don't like the free market system, go to China, where you can let the government tell you what you can and cannot believe. Phew.

hmm, definately can't blame all vendors, look at Stormrage, not only a vendor, but frequently putting freestuff up. Sams3D another good example of vendors making a living and still giving away items. oooh and DAZ even gives stuff away. gee sounds like someone got a short circuit in thier (name sex toy of choice here )

I think only the those modelers with the skills and/or technical expertise and/or talent worthy of it should even think about trying to make a living at it. It's better to deversify into other venues of 3d as well, if you're going to do that, though. I know a couple exceptions of modelers and 3d artists who can pull off the making a living at poser only thing, but only a couple.

i read this thread early, this morning...and felt indignation at whatever "vendor" would do such a thing. I DOUBT IT WAS A VENDOR WHO POSTED THOSE MESSAGES. WHY? 1. anyone who has sold their poser stuff for money...from textures, to "original" prints, to what have you...is probably savvy enough to know....don't plan on paying your mortgage with your sales "projections". little stuff like 9-11 can be a serious fly in your ointment. 2. isps can be tracked...no matter how "anonymous" one would like to be. wow....could that put a chink in the ol' revenue from sales....branded a freestuff troll...oh, my. 3. the better known "vendors" around here, would word their hate mail a little more professionally. i think this is just an internet troll trying to stir up trouble. let's hope he/she gets enough welfare, next month to fill that prescription!!!

Well it sounds like the work of a single individual - at least I hope it is :( I can't understand why anyone here would feel that they have some proprietary right to anything at all - including sales! As a vendor, I'm glad to see people putting items in free stuff. That's what got me started in Poser and can only help the community to grow. I've put a few items into free stuff but it now occurs to me that it isn't nearly enough. I think it's a great way to return something back to the community that we have all grown from.

It is kind of interesting that freestuff is what attracts a lot of new people to poser, if all you could get was what came with the program and a few items for sale you would end up with a lot less people using Poser. Less people less money spent, catch 22 Huh :-)

I know that for the first year with poser all i used was freebies, but as i became more and more hooked on the program i started buying product to use in my art.
God knows i love the free providers, but i also don't mind shelling out for a good product :-)

I personally do not buy from those who do not provide some free content, why? Because i feel that you have to give as well as receive as a merchant, a kind of way of saying thanks for the support for purchases past and future.

For those injured by these idiots, i feel for you, and will support you now and in the future. Thank you for all your wonderful toys!!!!

Ron Cartier

OK I never read all the posts..... I have questors products ( well the ones at Daz3d anywho) and I really like the quality of them top notch stuff, he could sell them for a bundle and doesn't kodos you you Questor. As you the emails...they are just lamers, I sell in the market place and give away free stuff all the time. I guess I am shooting my self in the foot (heehee debate about Questors gubs...shoot me in teh foot heehe) but I do not see it that way, I started in the free stuff... a lot of free stuff, and moved to the market place to try and supliment my income for software/hardware, not to pay the bills...I am sure a few of the best merchants can pay the bills (although I am sure not every month) but I am also guessing that they all have 'real' jobs as well.

You know, no matter how interesting a thread may be, there's always one flaming idiot that has to post an image 2048x1024 wide and throw off the text. Like I'm going to move the horizontal slider bar for every line of every post in this thread. Talk about censorship, just screw it up so people can't read it! Filty.

With all due respect EricofSD. The only "flaming idiot" who posted an image in this thread is me, and it's 800 wide - default width for the larger majority of computer screens, not 1024x768 The thread width was determined by the first post in this thread and I have no idea why it's done this but I suspect it's a reaction to cut and paste from a text editor. So, from this "flaming idiot" thanks. Sorry to have caused you such terrible grief. And I'm sorry that the image was so deceptive that you thought it was so big.

Darn my traitorous fingers, I meant 2048 wide, Well it ain't and it wasn't. wanders off to beat fingers into submission

I set my screen res to 1400x1024, so I hardly notice image size. I figure most folks have at least 1024x768, yes? Running Poser in anything smaller would be a screaming bitch to handle IMHO. /P

Questor, my apology if it wasn't you. I've seen posts go wide like this with imges. If you are not the culpret, then I shall stand in the corner with a we noodle flogging myself. But to the idiot who did make this a horizontal scroll bar thread, shame on you.

Ironbear, take it easy on the **** line, would you? There's a lot of people who respect you and forcing the horizontal scroll bar is not something I care to mess with. If you want our time in reading your rant, then respect our time by not forcing the tech issue. Thanks.

Attached Link: http://www.zeroknowledge.com/

"2. isps can be tracked...no matter how "anonymous" one would like to be. wow....could that put a chink in the ol' revenue from sales....branded a freestuff troll...oh, my." Well, to be fair, it IS possible to be anonymous ... it's just not convenient. It is fairly trivial to make all your traffic from your PC encrypted to the input of a multiple hop proxy network... Your ISP will know you are using the net, but not who you are talking to or what you are saying. All cookies and so on get stripped and all. Very cool :) For fun check out the link. As for the issue at hand, I will be happy to offer to do some textures for a few free stuff items as part of the effort. I do best with tech things but I can do something with anything. Now if only I could get decent POSE files to actually USE Questors guns *sigh*.

Just wanna say...after only reading a part of all this...I am soooo glad your still around Questor....sad to hear what you went through...your a star talent and always have been in my books...and soooo generous too...that is to be highly commended, not ridiculed by egotistical greedies and gremlins cowardly hiding behind their spineless arrogance... Be well...

I haven't made anything I could upload in Free Stuff, but what better compliment than you're such a good artist that someone tells you they can't feed their kids because of you(which obviously can't really be true, but still...) When I do finally make something worth posting, I will cherish every angry email I get.

", but where are the Dangerous Curves freebies you had in the free stuff area? I have them archived, but I'm sure other Newbies would love to see them! " - cainbrogan They're still there, and so is the Sunlight & Shadows pack. Do a search under DIgitalVisions - since they're a joint effort by me, Styxx and Eshal, they're posted under our partnership nick. "OK, before this gets into a "let's bash the vendors" thread which I do not believe is the reason that Ironbear started this thread. " No! Jesus Christ people... keep in mind, I'm a vendor also. So are my two partners, so are something like 80% of my closer friends, including Stormrage. Didn't realy intend this as an anti-vendor thing. Like a few people in this, I'm not real certain the individual(s) in question are even merchants. If they are, probably not very successful ones - almost without exception, all of the people I deal with who are vendors are pretty good folks. And as a store admin, I deal with a lot of vendors on a regular basis. I'm not sure what the motivation behind something like those type of mails would be... my mind doesn't work like that. I suspect Mac may have come pretty close in his theory. Hey - Soulhuntre? Check out Don's Gunfighter for Steph poses in Daz freestuff. Those were built around some of Q's guns. Ko, so it's not complete, but they make a good base to build from if you need other poses.

"Ironbear, take it easy on the **** line, would you? " Ah. Sorry Eric. My first read was "????" until I scrolled back up to see what you meant. ;] Yeah, np. Since I run at either 1024 or 1280, I'm afraid I forgot about it. Drafted in WordPad and pasted in. I'll use a smaller seperator next time. Apologies. ;]

No problem, IB, I actually have tried to read this thread as you can tell from the multiple posts. Sorry I jumped on questor and you. I doubt that I will make it through the thread, but from what I gather, the freebie folks are being disrespected. That's a shame.

Questor, my apology if it wasn't you. I've seen posts go wide like this with imges Thanks EricofSD. I'd also like to apologise for the sarcasm in my response, my excuse is lack of sleep which reduces my tolerance level somewhat. It wasn't fair to jump on you when a more polite explanation would have sufficed. I've also seen posts go wide with large scale images posted into a thread and should have been a bit more tolerant of your comment. My screen res is 2048x1024 and I tend to object to having a full width browser on my desktop as I tend to run multiple screens when browsing. I guess I should have fallen into bed a bit earlier, that way I wouldn't have bitten anyone. :)

Soulhuntre. In addition to the gunfighter poses from Don Albert in the Daz3D Store which are based around the western revolvers and rifles in the free archive, Don also has a set of trick shot poses for Stephanie in the Daz3D free archive that can be used on the other millenium couples with a little tweaking - those are designed around and include my LadySmith revolver. Schlabber has a couple sets of firearm poses on his site and cd for Posette/Dork. I have two pose sets for Mike and Vickie that can also be adapted for most of the sidearms. Blaze has been working on a series of rifleman poses for the sniper and hunting rifles that I've made (though these aren't ready yet). If you want the mike/vic poses send me an email and I'll post them out to you.

OK. Just to take a moment of your time. Penguinisto has kindly offered me hosting on his server and in the spirit of happily cluttering up other peoples hard drives I've accepted the offer. Hopefully I'll be able to get some html together and get the site live for the weekend. I will post and let everyone know when it goes up. Thank you very much Penguinisto, your offer is extremely generous, though you may live to regret it. :) I want to thank everybody in this thread who has either sent me or Blaze messages of support. She will respond to the emails herself later but for now she's asked I thank you all here. Thank you also everyone who has offered webspace to store various amounts of my models. Those offers are greatly appreciated. For those people who have offered space, I would ask that you keep an eye out for other freestuff providers who may be struggling and help them out. The strength of the forums is their ability to help each other and for the members to pull together. It'd be nice to see that spirit continue and enforce itself. Let's face it, without free stuff most of us would have much smaller collections of models and textures to play with. Bandwidth is and always will be a problem, but perhaps by spreading the load around some of the sites and offers that have been made by people in this thread a new trend can start. One of support. In all honesty I can think of no better way to "pay back" the people who sent abuse to generous souls like Sams3D, Fyrespirit and so many other people who are less vocal about the situation. On that note, it's nice to see people feel so passionately about this issue as it increases my faith in the forums and their members, which I confess had been flagging somewhat. I have no idea what triggers the abusive mails. I really don't. Why I and Sams3D should get them yet other people who offer freebies do not is a mystery. When I first broached this subject at 3DCommune last year the amount of emails was relatively limited, yet I was still aware of several people who were offering good to fair quality files that were getting nasty-grams in their mail. These varied from "you suck" to some fairly graphic and vicious emails. That trend if anything has increased over the last 18 months and it's sad to see it happen. I'm not alone in receiving abuse and I fail to understand the trigger that causes it. Suffice to say that there are people haunting the forums who have a problem with their own self esteem, or just like to hurl abuse at people. Hell the galleries get trolled regularly enough for little or no reason so it's not a unique situation. Little people who need to feel important in their own minds and do so by being abusive online - or in real life - exist in all walks of life. You can't avoid them but not everybody suffers from their particular kind of unpleasant attention. What motivates them is a mystery to me though there are probably a multitude of psychological explanations. It's enough that these people exist and it's more than enough that a few of them infect the cgi forums. As we've seen in this thread, the abusive behaviour is not limited to a few people or to these forums. Gaming forums and freestuff providers there get the same thing. It's sickening and very sad. I doubt that the awareness founded in this thread by Ironbear will last for long, the forums are too fickle and too active for that to last long, same with the support. But at least people are now aware of the situation of randome abuse though I have no doubt some of the vendors have already suffered from this spiteful behaviour and were aware already that some strange pathetic individuals infest the forums. Perhaps that awareness will stay with a few people and a better showing of support for freestuff and vendors will result. Who knows? Anyway. I'll take a risk here on behalf of all freestuff providers both vocal and quiet and thank everyone in this thread for the surprising show of support that has been displayed. Especially those who have received abuse through IM and emails. Yeah, I know, speaking for the mythical "all" is generally a mistake, but I think it's safe to say that some people will feel a bit better from reading this thread where before they may have felt rather alone and unappreciated. Ta muchly everyone. The emails to myself and Blaze have been greatly appreciated, as have the offers of hosting space. I just hope that this thread isn't forgotten as easily as some are, and that the statements made here hold for a while in people's minds. There's a symbiotic relationship that runs across all forum sites, but more especially so in large sites like this one. Freestuff means visitors, visitors means customers, customers means sales. Without one, the other cannot exist. Without sales these sites could not exist. Something to consider perhaps.

Thanks Questor and IB - I forgot I could re-use steph poses...

I have no idea what triggers the abusive mails. I really don't. Why I and Sams3D should get them yet other people who offer freebies do not is a mystery. maybe the abuser(s) are trying to make the same stuff as you guys in particular. and yes, there are other modellers who give out popular free stuff like PhilC -- we just haven't heard from PhilC on whether or not he gets nasty emails too... maybe the abusers prey on people who aren't as common in renderosity forums (like you) or seem too nice and hence can be abused into submission (like Sharen) or someone who might be new and weak enough to be scared into sulking away and getting rid of their competing items... or lemurtek's explanantion g all stuff you've thought of i'm sure :) so the best way to beat them back is keep doing it... hehe... cheers :)

[I have no idea what triggers the abusive mails. I really don't. Why I and Sams3D should get them yet other people who offer freebies do not is a mystery.]....the explanations above hold water and make sense...but then again...your dealing with artistic, creative people....and artists in every shape, way and form can and are usually a very strange, imaginative bunch...that is why we are artists... Unfortunatly sometimes that creative streak also can get the best of folks too and form an ego that swells their head bigger then their body can handle and they go into unbalanced loony mode and really begin to think they are the ultimate "gift to the art world"....explains why from time to time folks are the ways they are around here too....far too many times...must be some kinda artistic gland in or near our brains that lets off ego chemicals from time to time...huh....must be...?? Suppose this is the opposite to not having enough....too...which is then why you get folks that like to "give up" so easily... Stay well and be proud enough to know your good...

This sounds like one individual (and seems familiar, like something I've seen posted somewhere, I think by someone who presented themself as a single mom). Quite seriously; free counseling is available and can help - ESPECIALLY if your really do have children.

Like many, I'm sure, I appreciate the inspiring post by Questor, but I have to admit, I got nauseous reading it with having to pan back and forth. Don't feel so good now, gonna vomit. Your post was very nice and inspiring though, Questor.

What utter bullshit! I can't believe that people would send these types of emails (ok, I can, but its still horseshit). Questor, I consider you a friend and I am quite appalled at this. If there's anything that I can do to help (rotating emails, hosting, mirroring, anything), you let me know. Kudos to Penguinisto for helping you out and to his great, awesome freebie skybike that rivals anything commercially available. Take that you wanker freebie basher! I'm on the pro-freebie bandwagon too. I make a pledge, here and now, to offer a quality freebie for each vendor item I create, with no commercial render/animation restrictions. I might even do a higher ratio, perhaps 3:1. And to the persons responsible for the emails... Blow me.

Wow one UHGE thread...thought i would add my two pennies worth: I started in the community maybe 2 years ago when i first got my own copy of poser, and as an artist using poser my work was shit. i admit it! I joined Renderosity and i saw the likes of Questor, ToxicAngel, Sinsister and many many other who had skills i though unnatainable. I stayed around looking at the freestuff sections and gradually hunting out both the props and models but also the tutorials that would help me improve my art. And muc of the time i did not have the money to buy the vendor stuff. So freestuff was my saviour. I guess onyl this year did i actually manage to start putting enough money aside to be able to purchase those models in the vendor comunity that i really really wanted: The millenium dragon, RDNA's gothic armour etc...and those models i have bought have been outstanding in quality. Which is what i would expect if i pay! But that aint it at all...you see i still use kozaburo hair...and that folks, is still free! and in most cases i defy anyone to produce better hair textures and morphs for free than those...heck to be honest Kozaboru hair stil beats some of the vendor stuff hands down! Now this is my point..recently i fiddled a bit with some textures and poses, and they quickly became my own contributions to freestuff. my millenium dragon poses and eye textures hae been, from what i make out, huge successes i the freestuff section. Now a tutorial has been released and after only a week its been downloaded nearly 2000 times! Now im being honest here and you can mail me anything you wish about this next bit, ill take it on the chin...i've seriosuly thought, "shit, this could make me some serious cash...even if i charge $1 dollar a time id loose some people but still be in the money" yep i thought that.... and so even as i write this im working on another tutorial.and i was tossing about whether to make it a pay for item.... now this is the point: I could not be what i am today without freestuff. I would not have the skills i possess today without freestuff and the people that post awesome files in the community for free...anf this is the reason why the stuff i put out aint ever going to need to be paid for by you guys.....im giving my bit back to the communty that nurtured me when i knew nothing and could afford nothing.... you want my Dragon eye textures, take 'em....my new tutorial when its done...have it.... if i die tommorrow the money in my bank wont mean shit...but maybe just maybe someone will still use a texture i gave away, or a pose i spent time making... and to me...that matters more than any money in this world.... this community thrives because we all help each other out, and yet there are people who decide to rock the boat and shit like that! people who dont give credit for the stuff they use, people who steal others props and claim them as their own, and people that just want to make a buck out of others.... to those i say this: you want to make things for money fine, the community needs top quality merchandise and we are willing to pay for it..but not everyone can justify money on their artwork hobby. And would you deny those people the right to produce their art and learn their skills? Would you deny the world artists like ToxicAngel and Quagnon and As-Shanim and suchlike? because i think at some point they have all used freestuff....even if it was only the bottom rung of the ladder they now stand stop of...but they used it...and so did I! so im giving my stuff back to the community for free.... you want to hate me for it, go ahead...you hate my freestuff...dont use it.... and when you die i hope your piles of money take you all the way to hell...because it certainly wont keep you warm whilst your alive!

I thought I posted last night - but it seems I didn't. The really sad part about all this is that if this person or people had asked Q for help with their modeling - he would have given it to them. Even if it was for a commercial project. Just like he gives stuff away that other people would charge for. With no commercial restrictions no less. Cause that's the kind of guy he is. Period. Free Stuff creators rock! I thank you all from the bottom of my heart - and my pocketbook thanks you too ;) lol

Just came across this thread_ how sad this guy must be! (and I agree it sounds like one individual) He's obviously an embittered no-hoper in terms of his modelling skills, either that or he has delusions of being able to make some sort of living at this game. Most of us vendors I guess sell to allow us to buy!_certainly no prospect of a living from it. Its good to see such solidarity in the community. Reading the thread has made me think I must get more stuff in to the free section..its what led me in here. Started me buying, led to me modelling and selling. And still I can't come close to matching some of the real geniuses out there how give their stuff away for free. Great idea Penguinisto _ flood the free area with great stuff and that'll make the bastard spit all the more!

Hey Q?!! is that that pool I'm waiting for?? ;-) I agree with Jade the thing about this that bothers me the most is that Questor and many free stuff providers would be quite wiling to help others out - so what is the real reason behind bashing them? No one can seriously think they are going to survive solely on Poser that's just beyond ridiculous, and frankly those who do survive by selling Poser related items are those that make teh big breakthroughs - people like Anton who constantly stretch the programs potential with new ways of doing things or those like Syyd who do amazing skin textures. Anybody who thinks free stuff items are taking away their livlihood are obviously not providing anything that is deeply needed or wanted by the public. Create something original and keep compounding on it if you want to make a living at it otherwise "quityerbellyachin'"

Hi, total poser newbie here (this is my first post). Actually new to computer graphics although have made my living blowing glass and making things with my hands for most of my adult life (and I'm old enough to have voted for Carter!). I really appreciate everybody who has provided free stuff. I've bought my first characters (from a vendor who provides freestuff), and looking forward to upgrading from Poser 3 soon. Without the wealth of free stuff out there I would never had a desire to "move up" and spend my hard earned money on what for me now is a hobby. Since I am used to making things for money I might at some point offer, something for sale (to help pay for my hobby), but I'll definitely be offering up lots of freebies first (to trick people into liking me) - then again I might not ever offer something for sale. I have to say that except for the swearing (my problem, not anyone elses) I've really enjoyed reading this thread (and confirming what I thought, which is that this is a pretty nice "community" of talented people). Thanks again go out to anyone who has, does, or will offer freebies. May God bless you in all aspects of your lives! BobbyMike aka Michael Walters

Heh heh. Well, welcome abord, Bobby. ;] And sorry about that, sometimes when I get annoyed I can go gutter - obviously a character flaw. ;] Have to admit though, browsing any number of emails like the ones forwarded to me I posted above [and there were a few in the past year that were too vile to quote - even I'd be embarrassed], has a tendency to make me want to reply in kind. I was raised a gentleman, but occassionally my natural barbarian tendencies come to the surface. ;]

Questor, bless you_ I have most of your free stuff from DAZ, your generosity to the community (and all those other free stuff providers) is unquestioned and very much appreciated by 99.9999% of us here I'm sure. The quality of your models is quite superb and I quess that's partly what got under this creeps skin. He can't compete on price and probably can't compete on quality. ps that ? shower block set looks way cool..is it posted anywhere yet_awesome!

As a 'direct action' protest (not really_just glad for you all to have) just uploaded an Easy Pose worm in to Freestuff. Enjoy_ looking for lots of bites and a good haul!! Cheers all Nigel

No problem about the swearing. I gave up cussing, fighting, drinking, whoring-never actually had a problem with that one;), etc. a while back (as a Marine I pretty much saw-did it all) I just have three sweet wonderful boys and I want to keep them that way as long as possible. I wasn't offended, I just don't like to be around it because it's too easy to slip back into it. Thanks for starting this thread, it answered alot of my own questions on what the general perceptions of what people thought about freebies! Thanks also go out to Questor, PhilC, Cooler, Peguinisto, Ironbear, Schlabber, TrekkieGrrl, dna, DAZ, 3D Strike, SturkWurk, Capsces, Dodger, etc. etc. for doing what you do the way you do it. (if you didn't see your name don't fret I have a very small brain, and can keep only so many names in it at a time) Michael