I work on the Poser board for free. I'm a big fan of the software.

I also think the poser community is great, but that opinion is changing thread by thread.

-Jeff

Ah well then - my mistake - but if you truly dislike actually "moderating" why do it? There are plenty of ways to give back to community and help people learn without being a moderator.

"I'm a big fan of the software." And, hence, the biased opinion on which posts to move/delete? The position of being a moderator is to take the neutral ground and allow all sides equal representation. If there is bias one way or the other, then it is not moderating.

The Poser Forum is software specific and geared mainly towards learning that software.

Yes, I am biased towards learning over everything else.

Then, what did we learn by kupa's "Send stamps to my kid" post? or "California Dreaming"? Or "Dot on the Map"? That reasoning does not hold up for the myriad of posts that are allowed to remain vs the ones that are moved. Is it not "learning" when somone brings forth information about another application that may be of interest to the Poser members? After all, another application can enhance the features in Poser as well as replace them. If not, then why are all of the "utility" applications allowed to be posted, when they are not about "learning" the application, but circumventing some of the issues inherent in the application?

If you were really interested, I would tell you all about the concepts of "Community", but you're not so I won't.

Community is not * Segregating one portion of the populace over the preference for another. * Applying terms and conditions unevenly amongst the populace. * Taking sides one way or the other, when you are supposed to be a neutral party. Do we need more examples? I am, however, sincerely interested in your definition, and that of anyone else, in which the current discussion fits into the concept of how it is best for the community.

Since none of that is happening here what's your point?

So Jeff are the posts I listed going to be moved or not? "If you were really interested, I would tell you all about the concepts of "Community", but you're not so I won't." If you think what you are currently doing is "community" work then you aren't teh one to explain it. First you state that only learning posts are allowed in the Poser forum - you refuse to address the issues of all the other non-learning posts. Something you left yourself - adn other moderators wide open to deal with. Then you say that posts are moved based on a "moron factor". So tell us the truth - exactly why are they moved? Or is it more of the "this thread isn't going anywhere" (in your own personal opinion of course), type of ruling to move the threads?

Silvermage: Unless of course he's just not big enough to admit that. *** I'm a big fan of the software*** Influenced his decision because he was sick of seeing Curious Labs and Poser bashing threads. He did say somewhere in the poser forum that he was fed up with it all. Maybe that's it. But unlike some he'd rather obfuscate with meaningless statements than admit to having done it in a fit of pique - something many of us here could easily understand and perhaps sympathise with. This is of course purely conjecture seeing as the chances of actually getting a straight or honest answer out of Jeff are absolutely ZERO. Oh well, just more typical toe the party line crap at the big R. Ho hum.

"conjecture" There's alot of that going on isn't it? -J.

only because no one answers the straight questions with a straight answer. If the truth was that threads were moved due to "non-learning" status then someone would have moved the threads I listed above. But that hasn't been done so the the non-learning explanation was obviously untrue.

So what precisely do you expect Jeff? Huh? Really? Your happy horse manure answers are meaningless tripe that have no intrinsic use to this thread or any of the questions that have been brought up. I have no doubt you find your answers to be witty and clever but quite frankly as a representative of this site your hurting it with your transparent obfuscation and rhetoric. Perhaps if you aren't prepared to answer questions directed at you, you should desist in making ambiguous statements. But no, why spoil the habit of a lifetime. After all your "moron element" crack earlier in this thread is very similar to another crack you made about people right back at the site wars when R split. Some people just never change their spots do they? So either answer the questions that have been asked as a direct result of your statements, or go talk to your masters and see what is to be done to restrict the damage you are doing to the credibility of this site and it's management. While you're talking to them, you'd better explain how you've changed site policy regarding the forums all on your little lonesome and that they'd better ammend the TOS for the forums accordingly. So that everyone knows it's "Learning posts only" in the fora, and everything else in OT. Sure would do OT a favour and make it a hell of a lot busier.

""conjecture" There's alot of that going on isn't it? -J." So eliminate the conjecture. If you're not capable of providing an answer to the questions being asked, have Tammy or another admin who's capable of doing so address them. A refresher list: Community Moron-factor Learning oriented threads Non-learning oriented I'm not going to claim it's a stupid question because I don't think that it is: "Having to actually "moderate" is extra baggage I can do without most of the time" Then why are you accepting pay to do it?

CyberStretch: Community is not * Segregating one portion of the populace over the preference for another. * Applying terms and conditions unevenly amongst the populace. * Taking sides one way or the other, when you are supposed to be a neutral party. JeffH: Since none of that is happening here what's your point? and "conjecture" There's alot of that going on isn't it? I don't know about 'Stretch, but here's my points. 1) The most important point that to many of us these things do appear to be happening. 2) Conjecture is necessary since you seem to be refusing to give us any facts. 3) Just a reminder, we ARE the community. A community is not a website or a forum; it's the people who come there and participate. 4) The community wants to know what the hell is going on around here. 5) I have lost a lot of respect for you in the 10 minutes it took me to read this string. You sound like a jerk with delusions of grandeur who is on a power trip. However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Jeff, you are obviously burnt out. You need to take a hiatus for your own good, because you're making it obvious that you really can't handle the stress of this right now. 6) Has anyone gone over Jeff's head to the admins and asked them to intervene and possibly give Jeff a hiatus if they decide he also needs one and he doesn't take it himself? I will if desired, but frankly, I've been ignored the time or two I've contacted an admin.

Aw, crap, forgot an end italic tag. Man, what I wouldn't give for an edit function. :P

[Then why are you accepting pay to do it?]... Yes ladies and gentlemen, they actually 'DO' get paid to do this "now"...(here)...so don't let em pull your leg and say they don't...like they're doing us a big wumpum favor being here modding out of wholsesome love and goodwill for the membership and community spirit thingy... ...hell...be nice if there was a little more of that...maybe these places wouldn't be so damn cold and frigid a lot of times towards it's bloodlife....the 'members'...the essence that knits the community together and keeps it a sweater rather than just a raggedy old towel falling apart...

...Just to itterate...I'm not suggesting everyone is that way here...but this thread sucks with attitude...lately a lot of forums seem to suck with attitude...bad attitude...and I am sad that this attitude seems to come from too often from some of those that should be a LOT more respectable and thankful for their position and the clairvoyance they have with their particular community...rather than try to make their membership sound like a bunch hoohaaw's that just come to yank their jollies or what pocket change they may be worth maybe a very signifigant fact is too much forgotten in the highbrow moments...'MEMBERS mean EXISTENCE'......sustenance.....'members' make a community what it is...

Prior to this fix, if you attempted to access a thread that's been moved it used to erroneously say it had been deleted. Now with the fix in place, it will inform you it has been moved and give you a link to continue on to the new forum where you can read the original message. R

R--That is a nice improvement. I know that doesn't answer the questions about which threads get moved and which threads don't, but it will be a helpful change for finding threads wherever they go to. Thank you.

IB says without reading first:

"Then why are you accepting pay to do it?"

I told you people ignore what I say :-)

-Jeff

It doesn't count for anything, but I read from you that you aren't getting paid. Then someone wrote not to believe that. It really doesn't matter what the truth is, Jeff....perception overwhelmes all. And perhaps the inclination to try to make light of what is an emotionally charged issue is not helping...just a thought, meaningless. Poof.

"perception overwhelmes all"

Maybe that's the real problem, no one bothers to learn the facts before they speak.

The majority of moderators on this site are paid for their services - not a lot, but they are paid. If you are an exception to that norm Jeff, then fair enough, but moderators tend to get lumped into the general group of "Moderators" and moderators on Renderosity receive payment for what they do. In store credit, cheque or whatever other means are agreed upon with the PTB. Same with admin and other staff here. Perhaps Ironbear did read what you say but chose to believe the majority rule rather than the reasons you flippantly threw into this thread.

Our Moderators are basically compensated volunteers with a passion for their given subject.

They deserve better treatment than they get from the membership because they really are doing it for the community and not the paycheck.

I agree they do deserve better treatment SO DO THE MEMBERS OF THIS SITE Without the members all you moderators become immediately redundant. You'd just be sitting around here doing sweet FA. You treat the members better and stop bullshitting them and maybe you will get better treatment. But I suppose that little piece of logic is too much of a stretch for you.

Respect on both sides would help...I know everyone is upset and has gotten an emotional investment in making their point, but I'm not sure it's solving any problems to be casting dispersions against each other. I also don't think you can lump all the moderators together...they each have a different style and approach to dealing with their respective forums and assignments. I've gotten some very good responses when I've requested information directly from one moderator or the other. I hope my experience isn't unusual.

Well said dialyn!

Dialyn: You're right, there are some moderators here who do a sterling job, Crescent for example and a few others. But there is always one who decides he's funny and won't talk normally, rather just making blind comments and sweeping statements while smirking at his cleverness. Jeff has revealed himself to be one of those. My dislike of his behaviour in this thread doesn't alter my opinion of the moderators here who do show respect and are "up-front". My opinion of at least one moderator here though has undergone major revision. Yes, respect works both ways, it's always been a two way street. You can't get what you don't give. But I refuse to give what isn't earned and especially when everything is treated with contempt and flippancy. Take Spike for example. His responses to the majority of threads is one line. "We're dealing with this" or something similar. There's a reason I don't take off after him for not answering a question with a straight answer. That reason is simple. While I might not like that kind of answer I appreciate that Spike is busy and has a lot on his plate. So, I don't snipe at him (very often) and I don't make an endless point of it. He has a job to do and mostly does it pretty well. A pity that others don't set their own examples by people like crescent and others here. But would rather gratuitously label people in general as morons, blocks of unclarified messages as crap, and claim it's all "so much extra baggage". I expect that sort of nonsense from an ordinary member who has little or nothing to lose, not from an "official", a representative of this site. That's something else entirely. If jeff has such contempt for the members of this site then perhaps he should take a break or move on to something that isn't such a terrible burden.

Ugh! Jeff. This is not how the majority of the members feel about you. The older wiser members appreciate your efforts more than the newbies that blow in here and act as if they know it all. Don't let them drag you down to their level. ScottA

Don't let them drag you down to their level. I'm more concerned with him dragging people down to his level. What a fine example to set to newbies isn't it? Flippancy, contempt, obfuscation and meaningless rhetoric. No wonder so many threads have irrelevant or controversial comments in them when this is the example set by "respected old timers". Phah!

"Respect on both sides would help...I know everyone is upset and has gotten an emotional investment in making their point, but I'm not sure it's solving any problems to be casting dispersions against each other." Dialyn you are correct but we would also expect the moderators to be respectful in return. This thread began as an honest and respectful question to the moderators. It was answered with what is perceived to be a lie. Spike:"We try to keep the software forums about learning the software. When a thread is about something other than learning, we move it." For those of us who have been around for a long time we know this answer can't possibly be the truth. If it were true then the threads I posted above would have been moved as they are definitely off topic for the Poser forum and not about learning. Lying and patronizing are not respectful. This was made further obvious by Jeffh's response: "There's not enough time in a day to move all the crap I'd like to. I have to break it down to which threads have the biggest moron-factor going on and boot those. You seem to have alot of free time, start compiling a list of OT threads and maybe I'll get to it some day. -JH." Referring to a moron-factor (and nope there is no smiley face there) and implying that others do his work and then maybe he'll get to it some day is also offensive and rude. - Certainly not respectful and most definitely not an answer. And ScottA:"The older wiser members appreciate your efforts more than the newbies that blow in here and act as if they know it all." Isn't actually true - the ones who seem to think the rude behaviour and refusal to answer a straight forward question is ok - are the newbies. As for dragging anyone down to alevel - may I never be on a level so low that I feel that a direct, honest answer is the wrong step to take when dealing with anyone who has approached in a respectful and honestly enquiring manner.

All of the admins are busy Questor, including myself.

I don't mind answering questions if my answer is really what you're after. You and others have proven it is not.

With me, what you see is what you get and I tend not to sugar-coat my statements.

As a Moderator of the Poser Forum I'll do whatever it takes to maintain a balance of Learning and Community interaction without disruption. If that means moving threads that's what I will do. This will not change.

DAZ and Curious Labs are welcome there including their respective supporters and detractors who choose to behave in a civil manner.

-Jeff

PS: Scott, you have a good point.

"I don't mind answering questions if my answer is really what you're after. You and others have proven it is not." Jeff I'd actually like a real answer to this. The threads that were moved didn't disrupt the Poser forum - no more than a dot the map, Judy is butt ugly or wav file thread did. I for one don't want a sugar coated reply I want to see where moving these threads were part of a rule that stated they should be moved or an honest reply as to why they are being moved in the first place. You can not simply say you moved a thread because of a moron-factor; after all the threads may have pertained to and concerned others with like thoughts. By stating what you did you are saying that you are deciding who will be heard in the Poser forum and who will be relegated to the OT forum. That is not "community". If the real reason is that the threads are anti-learning then a statement declaring "the software forums are all for learning only posts" should be made and adhered to.

LadySilverMage, I am not realy sure what I did to start you down this path of anti-Spike. You asked and I gave you a reply that was and is 100%. We "try" to keep the software forums about learning the software. When a thread is about something other than learning, we move it. The key word here is "TRY". As you all know, we have many thing to do in a day and there is no way we can cover 100% of all the posts to the site. Questor, Thanks for understand This thread can go on for days if you all like, but The more time we spend in here saying the same thing, the less time we have to do other work. Lets all just drop this and get on to better things. In the light of world events, this seems prety much like a joke that we are fighting over something like this. Come on, think about it, "Moved threads"

"I am not realy sure what I did to start you down this path of anti-Spike. You asked and I gave you a reply that was and is 100%." I am not anti-spike or anti-JeffH, I can honestly say there are maybe 3 individuals in all of Poserdom that I am actually "anti". There are several here posting that do have experience in moderating forums ()and Poser forums no less) - probably why we are so anoyed by this. The key word here is "TRY". As you all know, we have many thing to do in a day and there is no way we can cover 100% of all the posts to the site". But come on - the threads I posted above were in the first 29 threads in the Poser Forum when I went there - and that didn't include the multitude of "where can I find..." so it's hard to see how they could be missed. Frankly I would rather be online now then listening to the news - my daughter has frankly been terrified enough by the sniper and having her school on lock down the past 2 weeks that it's nice to have no tv on (the kids are home today) and time to take our minds off of it.

World events are world events and as such are relegated to the Off Topic forum or email, real life or other places where such discussions are encouraged. Concerns raised here have to do with the Poser forum and a poser moderator in particular and as such are relevant to the way the members may be perceived to be allowed to act in that forum and the actions that may be randomly taken upon them by someone on a hissy fit power trip. The TOS is one thing, most try to abide by that, Moderator judgement calls are another and mostly they too are accepted on face value. Bullshit, rhetoric, lies are not. Sorry Spike, I'd love to agree with you on this, but the questions raised in this thread have not been answered and Jeff has been getting more and more evasive and insulting all the way through it, then pretends innocence when called on it. If he's so frelling busy, why are there so many flippant and meaningless responses from him in this thread? And if it's such a damn burden having to deal with so much crap and so many morons, why the heck is he doing it? Surely this could all have been prevented if he'd be honest and straight from the start? But no, he has to play the martyr. "I don't mind answering questions if my answer is really what you're after. You and others have proven it is not. What question did you actually answer that had an answer that anybody actually either understood or that wasn't insulting or evasive? You haven't answered squat so how the hell would you know what I and others are after. Your full of something Jeff, something it's against TOS for me to mention you're full of, and it's getting very tiresome. The person in this thread isn't the same JeffH who used to share freebies and help newbies, so don't pretend it is. The w****r in here is nothing more than an arrogant slob crazed on his own self importance and imagined wit. Grow up, answer the questions that have been fielded to you WITH STRAIGHT ANSWERS not stupid remarks and insults, and you might be surprised that people WILL treat you with some respect. So far you've shown nothing but contempt and seem surprised when it's returned to you.

The answer she is looking for is this Spike: "We apologize that we are not as good at moderating the Poser Forum as LadySilverMage. We will strive to do our best to be as good as her someday. Until then. Please bear with out innept attempts at running the forum". Signed, Spike & JeffH. I know it sounds like I'm starting trouble with you Lady. But seriously. What other reply would make you stop? They don't do things like you would do it. What else do you want them to say? There's no real answer to your question other than to say you prefer to do things differently. ScottA P.S.- For those of you playing the Home Game out there. I will now get an emmotional reply from Lady calling me all kinds of names and telling me how evil I am. ;-)

WOW! Sounds like Spike should just walk away from this while he can. If you all have a problem with a mod or admin, please contact Tammy via e-mail and she will help resolve this issue. Send it to: admin@renderosity.com Att: Tammy

Scott: Most of us already know how evil you are. You've been a pod person for ages. LOL Spike. Thanks. I did contact Tammy and pointed her to this thread. Not sure if I can post her response here but contacting her patently hasn't had a blind bit of effect on his behaviour when he quite frankly has been misbehaving rather horribly and fielding generalised insults at the members.

Cross post there Scott but ok...

Questor,

"Your full of something Jeff, something it's against TOS for me to mention you're full of, and it's getting very tiresome. The person in this thread isn't the same JeffH who used to share freebies and help newbies, so don't pretend it is. The w****r in here is nothing more than an arrogant slob crazed on his own self importance and imagined wit. Grow up,
answer the questions that have been fielded to you WITH STRAIGHT ANSWERS not stupid remarks and insults, and you might be surprised that people WILL treat you with some respect. So far you've shown nothing but contempt and seem surprised when it's returned to you."

As far as I'm concerned this is a personal attack and I'm warning you offically not to violate the TOS in this manner.

If you need a second warning another admin will handle it.

-JeffH.

Fine suits me, don't forget to warn yourself for calling forum members MORONS and that they write loads of CRAP for you to sort out, which creates BAGGAGE you can do without. I don't care if you "consider" it a personal attack. Let me clear that up for you. It WAS. :) Ban me, I could give a damn right now. It'd just prove some of my suspicions about this place and you in particular. Do you need an excuse? I'll be happy to give you one. Surely your erroneous claim on "tagging" should be sufficient.

Ok, All that are involved, Please step back from this thread. It's just not worth it! Do it for me, Please...

On second thought, this thread is going nowhere fast... Locked