Has anyone heard anything about the phone meeting that Larry and Dan had yesterday in trying to resolve DAZ's concerns with the Poser 5 EULA? It would be nice to have a report on this hot topic that concerns so many of us here in this forum.

I thought you were corresponding with Larry on this? Isn't that what you said earlier? I'm sure that just as soon as anyone knows anything someone will say something. No good asking, the larger majority of people are just as much in the dark as you are.

I'm loking forward to the response too but the subject matter is the type that they'd probably talk about, go to their lawyers and talk about, talk to each other again, ad nauseum. If they're smart they'll wait until whatever is being discussed is concrete and then jointly announce the results. they're smart enough to know that if things aren't resolved, it's to both of their advantage to keep up the appearance of friendliness. And depending on the true nature of whatever is between them they may have to resolve issues a little at a time. I've seen all sorts of rumors and inferences here in the forums. I've seen general statements by them. I have no doubt that some of us have a more accurate understanding than others but as far as I can tell the complete nature of whatever is between them is not totally known to us (and although I have a strong interest in it, I don't think anyone outside of the companies has the "Right" to a complete picture of the internal workings of either company). Actually, based on their comments it sounds like a part of the issue is plain and simple miscommunication - either between organizations or within organizations (or some combination thereof). That can take time to sort out. Then they can address the "real" issues.

Actually Questor, I am corresponding with him on an entirely different issue. Doesn't hurt to ask. Perhaps someone knows something. Perhaps Larry or Dan may see this and comment like they have in the past. Thanks for your concern.

When either group decides they can make political or PR hay out of a statement, they'll post something.

I think the whole bloody mess is the fault of some 'suits' trying to make themselves look good and ended up making CL look bad

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Yo Tuna: seeing as how I purchased Poser 5 this morning I feel more justified in posting...nobody made CL look bad. CL promised a program re-written from the ground up...didn't happen CL elected to include the copy-protection of all time CL has not guaranteed anyone that if they go bankrupt that these purchased copies of P5 will be able to be re-registered if necessary CL took pre-orders and billed credit cards before merchandise shipped Now, you may justify this with the explanation that other software companies bill before they ship, well, FYI it is illegal and if people started writing to their Attorneys General Offices I sure suspect the shit would hit the fan. I suspect the shit will hit the fan sooner or later anyway as Internet Commerce is being used to side-step all sorts of consumer protection. So, you may think, why did the big mouth b*tch buy it? Well, just so I can see if I can get it to work...so there! Besides, I really liked Marques' render, and 1 or 2 others I've seen

I could have sworn I saw a message from kupa saying that if anything catastrophic happened to CL, P5 owners wouldn't be left hanging. I regret that I can't pinpoint the post, but I tend not to suffer false memory syndrome. :-) Haven't they saved considerable face with the general success of the latest patch? That was certainly my impression. More and more users are saying "things work now."

xoconostle: there's a post over at rDNA in the Poser 5 forum, I think titled "rendering problems" 2 people report that after SP1 (which I suppose I'll have to download) all rendering is black...I'm surprised nobody here mentioned it - I searched here and the beta forum last night because I knew I was going to buy it this morning but no mention here? As far as Kupa's assurance that nobody would be left hanging...who do you think promised the completely re-written Poser, Mel Gibson? g I'm teasing you, xoconostle, but not CL...I am really actually surprised (naivete I guess) that any company can post, in a public forum, that a piece of software will be re-written and then not do it. That just blows my mind. Of course my attorney sister tells me I can do the same -Sure would be fun lmao

"2 people report that after SP1 (which I suppose I'll have to download) all rendering is black" actually that was mentioned here as well a while back but that was about SR-1 the updates are already on the second version of SR-2 and it seems that this version has fixed most of the bugs reported (at least the problems in the beta forum have slowed down) Im not sure I ever read Kupa promising that poser would be rewritten completely from top to bottom but even if he did things change so what? it's not the end of the world. there were assurances that even if CL were to go out of business there would be a patch available to disable the security and I contend that there is already crack ware that will do that which may be illegal now but if theres no CL what will it matter. as far as billing before merchandise is shipped, I wasn't my card was debited the day before my box showed up on tracking at the airborn site. as for prebilling in general it is common practice in mail order and is not illegal according to any law I've ever seen.

wdupre: my sister negotiated the software contracts for an entity known world-wide. I won't give the name because I don't want to cause her any grief due to my big mouth. But...if you have clout (and believe me, they do) you'd be surprised at how willing software companies are to place source-code with a neutral third-party as an assurance that should they go bankrupt the purchaser will never be harmed. Not that I expect CL to do that, but hey, talk is cheap. Why not just remove the copy protection? If it's cracked already, what's the point? Everybody who purchased it would be secure in the knowledge that they could, indeed, use it forever. End of philosophical rant I bought it...I intend to use it and if CL ends up not supporting DAZ products I'll buy DAZ's app also.

wdupre: I'll check with her tomorrow but I'm pretty sure she said that "shippable" product must be available before you are billed. Whether they ship it the same day or the same week is not the issue. "Available" is the issue.

you may be right but available is a pretty big loophole for example many companies use drop shipping where they bill the customer then order the product to be shipped directly to the customer by a third party the third party then bills the company for the product. this is done by large corperations particularly computer companies, Dell comes to mind they now only manufacture and stock a small fraction of the computers they sell. I'm not sure how availability applies to CL. I still don't think it is Illegal to require payment in full in exchange for prebooking a new product as long as you are stating that the buyer is prebooking and not buying stock off the shelf.

"Why not just remove the copy protection? If it's cracked already, what's the point?" this has been the argument of many anti-copy protection proponents but the statistics don't bear this out. the point can be illustrated by Win XP I have many friends and aquantences who went out and baught XP becouse of the copy protection even though a crack was already available but these same people would think nothing of Borrowing Photoshop from a friend it is those people that copyprotection is aimed at.

wdupre my P5 box was shipped to me 2 weeks before they finally took the money, I would have bought Poser5 whatever protection CL decided to include in it.

CL can promise that people will not be left in the lurch if they go bust, BUT - If they go bust, chances are the rights to Poser will be bought by another company, and that deal would be likely to involve transferring the registration rights. In which case the "remove security" patch would NOT be released. CL's obligation that users are not left in the lurch is thereby fulfilled - for as long as Company X decides to continue supporting Poser 5. If Company X then pulls the plug, you're stuffed, and you have recourse to no-one. This is a good reason to distrust this sort of security system.

On the pre-order page, CL mentioned that your card would be billed immediately. Since notice was given, no foul. If you didn't read it, shame on you.

I won't be using P5 until the silly copy protection is removed. So effectively, they've lost a customer until they get their head out of their butts. I've still got the boxes for Poser, Poser 2, Poser 3 and Poser 4. But I won't support a company who betrays my trust like CL did by including moronic copy protection! P5 is USELESS to me since I keep everything on a removable hard drive. I can't take the drive from work to home if I have P5 without getting a new code... JOY! JOY!

Just stringing this for possible future excitements...don't wanna get lost in the shuffle...

"I won't be using P5 until the silly copy protection is removed. " Err, then don't. After the initial registration, it's out of the way and painless. CL has said numerous times (here, PoserPros, RDNA, etc) that P5 users won't be left in the lurch. If someone else buys up Poser, they are obligated (as part of the purchase) to honor all existing agreements with current customers. Also, as you've said, it has already been cracked, so if CL goes under and by some odd circumstance does not provide the keys, you already have access to a ready resource for cracking the software yourself, so what's the problem? /P

Haven't you read the fine print at the website: "Don't forget- if you didn't pre-order Poser 5 at the full price, you can now buy it for $10 less! And, no, you pre-ordering people will not get a discount. And, no, we won't answer your questions about why we f***ed our loyal, some would call 'rabid', customer base. What's that? You really want your questions answered about these issues? Look over there- a new feature! Isn't it cool? Just look at that image! Why won't we give people their money back? VOLUMETRIC FOG!!! Cool, isn't it! Why did we reduce the price 8 weeks after releasing the product? Did we know sales for our buggy software would be so crappy? VOLUMETRIC LIGHT!!! Cool, isn't it?"

...like I asked a long time ago (and got no real answer to): How many folks here have bought and used Windows 95, 98, ME (especially ME), 2k, XP... hell, they're all buggy and were prone to constant crashing in their early days. /P

I think that considering you were asking in an online computer forum, we all figured it was redundant to state the majority of us had probably cursed an MS operating system for the BSOD blues at one time or another. ;] Not certain what that has to do with the P5 EULA though Pengy, no offense. ;] After all, we gots tons of strictly bugware bashing threads to do "Poser 5 vs Windows 95 OSR Initial Release" comparisons... <----- Ironbear the intentionally inconsistent. ;]

LOL! No prob... I just find it funny that folks who go back to Microsoft again and again and again and again for their products, and do so without complaint. Yet with these same folks, if Poser 5 horks up, or if CL holds a sale (and a mere $10 sale for fugg sakes!), then it's off to the forums to howl against the nefarious Curious Labs, whilst toasting their painful demise!

"go back to Microsoft again and again and again and again for their products, and do so without complaint. " Oh gods NO! Bite your tongue... Check out the VIA Hardware boards, FiringSquad, VoodooExtreme, any NUMBER of software and technical related forums... Micro$haft has been getting their ass bitten off for YEARS in reviews, threads, postings, emails, letters, irate phone calls... you name it. Ditto for other software companies [many of who have their own forums, rather than Renderosity's]... when they hose up, their buyers let them know about it. CL is getting chunks bitten off of them here and elsewhere because this is where CL browses and posts. MS get's their turn where their reps do the most reading... ditto for Bryce and other manufacturers.

I'm with you on that one Penguinisto. though everytime I try that argument I get my head chewed off.

A correction on the figure - I have a copy of that mailer: It's $29 off on the full, $10 - $15 off on some of the upgrades. And yeah, it is a bit of a slap to the pre-order people. Toasting their painful demise? Heh - give me a ring. I'll hoist couple of non-alchoholics if they manage to shoot themselves in the head that thoroughly. Self inflicted demise.

I'm with you on that one too penguinisto. I have video games that drop that much in 1-2 months after release. har, now the real people who should b***h are the maya guys who brought right before they dropped to $1999 from $7499! ( I know a few...)

Now that would hurt!

Ironbear the prebook was 329.99 on the full version so it's still only ten dolars difference for that as well.

:] snicker

Oh looky! My very own troll! Can I keep him? Can I huh? Do I have to poke air holes in his container?

I know its tempting not to, but you really should poke those holes.

Awwwwwww Mom! I never get to have any fun. ;]

Okay! Okay! I'll tell you what. We'll take you downtown and you can get one of them little troll wheels for the critter. Would you like that? Would you?

Oh kewl! On of the little mazes he can run around in trying to find his food til his eyes bleed? Mom - you're the BEST! ;]

And people wonder why our questions never get answered- we can't even stay on topic in one thread! I thought this was about Poser 5's EULA and the questions that CL won't answer... not about trolls!

Attached Link: Merchants & Poser 5 - should we worry?

" The fundamental flaw in comparing an OS vs an application is quite obvious." Why? Software is software. Just because it occurs in Userland doesn't mean it suddenly gains relevancy or importance. I'd rather think the opposite happens. "Also, the lack of other available options in the PC OS arena" So who said you had to stick with a PC all this time? The average family is prolly on their second or third computer by now, so it's not as if they're forced to remain with any particular architecture. The reason MS got dragged into court had nothing to do with thier techincal competence, but with their monopolistic business practices. Standard Oil got the same charges levelled against them, and no one knew what software was back then.That alone makes me wonder why you brought that up. And back to my original point, Windows users not only put up with bugs in large numbers, but even with all the bugs present in the OS that most of the complaining folk here use, they have yet to declare "Microsoft has just lost my business!" I'll go peek at the Thread That Never Ends now :) /P

"And people wonder why our questions never get answered- we can't even stay on topic in one thread!" points at Penguinisto HE started it.

"Why? Software is software." Hrm, shall we compare what the average application does in comparision to the averasge OS? C'mon, /P, I know your more intelligent than lumping all "software" together in one bundle. "So who said you had to stick with a PC all this time? The average family is prolly on their second or third computer by now, so it's not as if they're forced to remain with any particular architecture." Families are not the only, nor necessarily the largest, consumer of computer systems. Personally, I have chosen to remain with PCs because they can accomplish what I need them to, so why switch when something works? Perhaps I am one of the few "chosen ones" who has never had a serious problem with MS products, and thus my view is slightly jaded by the general stability and usability I find MS products to have, over other software products. "The reason MS got dragged into court had nothing to do with thier techincal competence, but with their monopolistic business practices." I see nothing in your previous posts that indicated we were talking about "techincal competence", just a comparision regarding how many people who use MS products complain vs CL products. MS has, time and again, been "the" public scapegoat for computer consumer complaints. MS' brush with the US Justice Department was the result of what? Several very vocal competitors complaining about how MS does business. Granted, I do not condone nor absolve MS of any wrong-doings, but had not such a furor arisen around MS' business practices by the consumers, whether they are commercial or private citizens, would the Justice Department have stepped up to the plate otherwise? MS has had pretty much a monopoly on the PC OS market since the DOS/Win 3.x days to the present. They have a history of "borrowing" from other companies and buying out or pressuring thier competition into submission. If that is not enough time for the Justice Department to act upon "monopolistic business practices", then I think that the Justice Department needs a severe overhaul to bring more nafarious corporate criminals to task before they all go bankrupt due to the embezzlement of CEOs and the like. === Now back to the topic at hand, currently in progress... ;0) I have not seen anything, other than Dan Farr's posts at PoserPros, that would indicate anything is happening on the EULA front. Of course, I took a few days off "Poserdom" to deal with RL again, so I have a couple days worth of backlog to clear.