WAR OF THE SEXES? For starters: When I downloaded Victoria from Zygote's site, I also immediately felt "cheated" somehow. I may yet ask for my money back tomorrow, depending on what Zygote releases in their free update. But NOT over how "good" she looks. Secondly: I am female. Now my point is this, though I KNOW there are men among the Victoria enthusiasts out there, it seems that most of her detractors are male. I am not sure how to put this delicately, so as usual I will just say what is on my mind. Is it possible women on the whole find Victoria more acceptable as a model than the men do, but only maybe so far as her "looks go? I do not find her precisely as "ugly" as you men seem to. I do find her to be largely regurgitation in a less usable form of Torino's Eve, and thus why I may ask for my money back. Eve has genitals. Victoria does not. THE GENITALS ISSUE. Ok, ok, all right already Zygote. I am a female. I do not do pornography with my women in Poser (and if I did, it is none of Zygote's business what we do with the models we have paid for). But from day one, way back to Poser 3, I spent a lot of my time attempting to get genitalia onto my women, even though it was going to be under the clothes. It is just a psychological thing. We want her as real as the man. (Maybe had the man been neutered.) We do not like this strangely neutered woman. She needs her parts too? Yes? If you all at Zygote hold off on making an anatomically correct female for fear that it will offend women, I think you need to consider neutering the women has offended us more. It is as if somehow it was silently stated that there is something nasty about a model that is anatomically correct for a woman. If it is a matter of the fact that your male modelers are a bit gun-shy on working on those parts, hire one of us female 3d modeling artists, I do not think we are gun-shy about our own bodies. WHAT IS WRONG WITH VICTORIA: Posette was in my opinion just too perfect. She looks so perfect, so generic, that we spent all of our time attempting to make her somehow more believable, less "artificial", more like a real woman. Now, as we have all seen demonstrated amply over the last weeks, if we were not already aware of it, Zygote staff heavily monitors this bboard and our posts. Zygote staff may not say a lot, they are watching and reading, and aware of what we spend a lot of our time doing to Posette. Was it not reasonable then, for them to make a woman who was somehow more "average" in look, a bit less perfect, even down to dark shadows under her eyes in the texture? A "real" woman. I guess they believed that was what we were working our fingers to the bone to achieve. Surprise! Poor Zygote maybe should have put up a questionnaire asking us what we all REALLY wish for in our idea of a new standard model for Poser 4, instead of watching our activities with Posette. WISHFUL THINKING. I think all of us hope that Zygote will somehow someway make it up to us that we are on the whole disappointed in Victoria. That maybe Victoria was not what we had all wished for, even those who did go on and pay for her and are now, working their fingers to the bone, just as they did with Posette, to make her more what we wanted her to be. I believe though, that since the cost of development of Victoria will be the bottom line in Zygote's thinking (as it must since they are a business) that most improvements of Victoria will need to be done by this community. I do hope that someone, perhaps Torino or another of the excellent morph artists, will take Victoria to new heights. I hope Zygote learns that monitoring this bboard is not enough to learn what we need. They might in fact just ASK us. Or perhaps the forum moderators could put up a poll bboard specifically for that. Zygote Wishlist. Ah well.

I never leave a house alone when I move in. I paint the rooms, add or remove doors, put n new lighting, re-do the yard... I never leave a mesh alone when I DL it. I add my own textures, re-arrange the form to suit my tastes, change the default colors, add my own morphs... I got the model because of what I can do with it. I agree 100% that not adding genitals to any of the females is NOT good. If the males have all their pars, not adding the gentalia to the female is very strange. I have already used the new model in work related pieces- the higher vert count makes a much better picture, so fo rme it was worth it - I can deduct it from my taxes as a cost of doing business. I don't kow how other people will justify the exspence for themselves, but I can. I will be spending lots of time trying to make a texture out of some old ones I use and (freely admitted) I want to use it for some adult stuff. How to do a realistice texture for the female gentials will be really hell. The fact that Zygote did not include female "parts" does hint at a mind set that frowns on adult (in this case i mean rational and open) discusion of matters sexual. That's where those of us who are not bound by that mind set are free to do what we wish. It's like buying a house - you get something you can build on. The work you put into it is proportional to the enjoyment and utilitarian return you recieve. I don't see her as ugly - I see her as something to work on. And if I want perfection all I have to do is look at the soul behind my wife's eyes....

I wanted to reiterate, IF I ask for my money back on Victoria, it is over the issue that despite the fact the model is clearly better constructed to achieve future end goals with on the whole, she has no genitalia. After purchasing many of Zygotes characters now, it has occurred to me suddenly that perhaps the only way to get Zygote to comply and create a woman with her parts is to simply ask for a refund on those that are neutered.

Well, last time I checked I was still male but as I've said before, I like Victoria and don't find her ugly at all. As for the missing genitals, I don't personally care one way or the other. Zygote's Muscleman doesn't have genitalia and I haven't missed them- perhaps because I find it difficult to identify with 3D models and my stuff has little to do with visual reality anyhow. None the less, I understand that their lack disturbs you. Why don't you simply email Zygote and ask about it? I've always found them remarkably responsive and communicative. I may not always agree with their position but that's okay, they don't always agree with me either :-) At the very least you will have formally registered your opinion with them. While Zygote could not possibly satisfy all of us, unlike many companies they do listen. Bottom line- asking the rest of us how Zygote thinks will never get you as accurate an answer as asking Zygote.

The lack of genitalia is bizarre. If this is how millennium women are really built, don't hold your breath for an appearance of one at the next millennium. ;-) That 'Victoria' is a 'family' figure even extends to the 'photorealistic' texture map - there is no pubic hair! I think the mesh itself is extremely high quality, and extremely good value for money. I wouldn't have been seeking my money back on this, even without tomorrow's free morphs. I'm very pleased with it, even if having to do so much work on it just to make it 'normal' is tedious. However, the texture map is NOT photorealistic, and it doesn't even fit properly!!! As it stands, it is unfit for the purpose for which it is advertised. Unless the update for the texture map addresses these problems, I will definitely be seeking a refund on this. I can't understand why Zygote chose to make a rod for their own back by making what should have been a sort of new standard 'utility' figure into a specific character, or why that character is so at odds with what the majority of the Poser using community is doing. They have blundered, and if it were not for the high quality of the mesh enabling high levels of adaptablity, an exciting new range of possibilities would have been squandered.

I have never found the lack of genetals a problem. Perhas that is just me and my artistic training but for thousands of years women in paintings, sculpture, whatever didn't have them. Again, no big deal to me. Tomorrow morphs will help her. I also believe they said the texture will be update to fit properly. I find her attractive and much different than the possette. She is much less barbie-like and no longer looks so young. Coming from a family of broad shouldered people I have no problem with those either. To me possette and the poser guy were always too, too narrow. Especially the guys. I am very happy with her with the addition of the morphs tomorrow. Though I do want to narrow her smilignmouth a little

you might have noticed that there is a morph for applying genitals to the model. Check Trav's website :) what else are we discussing here? it's just a 3d model, a bunch of verticies, meshes, whatever. if you apply the genitals, her pussy sticks trough the panties. wonderful, indeed very useful. what's so special about a 3d woman having genitals if they're not needed in any way? -Ede

Remember when Londo was so upset about the "Londo" figurines in the market? :-)

jup :-)

yeah clothes would rock! especially those future-suits would suit me pretty well if they'd work with vicky AND with smaller breast! :) -Ede

Allie, I never render a figure out of the box. One reason I don't touch Nene for the most part. I normally spend hours pulling morphs from traveler or making my own but it still is at heart the possette with all her barbie-isms. To me the lack of parts is no big deal but to you it I and I can respect that but if you are so dis-satisfied just ask for your money back. She may not be for everyone but I like her and think she is much more useful than a high res possette or eve. Have to agree with illusions about this fued ... just seems very odd to me. Have a better one

I think the "feud" is not so much a feud, or perhaps even a war of the sexes (though I still wonder on that one, since I think and it seems most women think, that Vicki is alright look) but maybe it is just that we have forgotten what Posette looks like straight out of the box? I mean she is fairly disappointing. Sure she is lovely, and she had potential, so everyone set about making her more what she was needed to be. Now everyone is back to square one with Vicki (and I STILL like Millie as a name better). But that is just it. It is I like this. You like that. So what do we do? We all yell at Zygote for not making what each of us in our own way liked. That is no war, that is not even valid, that is just whining. Learn to model your own 3d geometry for gods sakes and buy 3d studio max. Ok enough. What IS though a valid issue really, is the maps did not fit right. And the lack of genitalia. Those are just incredibly basic expectations that I do not think were too much to ask for. I think had those two issues been addressed there would not be a war, we would all just settle down to morph her face and body to what we like.

Some of the anti Victoria sentiment is bizarre, to say the least. Quite why anybody would want to try and form an 'anti Millie alliance' is beyond me. In the event of not finding the item suitable for purchase, the best bet is stick to not buying it and just get on with your life. Accusing Zygote of being ripoff merchants has to be one of most ridiculous notions seen here this year. Whatever anyone feels about the visual appearance of the figure, the mesh is incredible value. It cost me 38 pounds and sixty seven pence, which would buy me pretty much bugger all beyond some utility shopping in the supermarket. Sixty dollars may be beyond some peoples' pocket, but in comparison to most commercial hi-res meshes they are just about giving it away. Incredibly, it's fully set up for animation! I don't think some people realise just how much they'd be getting for their money. I suspect the problem with the texture map is that it was a bit of a rush job. I doubt very much that Zygote deliberately let something out not caring about the quality. Thinking about it, the issue of pubic hair would be better addressed with a similar system to the 'outer' eyebrows. On my images, I used the pubic prop by Ian Grey. This enables changes to this area without having to redo an entire texture map.

I won't elaborate because all the responses here are very long, but as for the male gens, when you clothe him, you have to turn them off or he hangs out of his fly. As for my Barbie dolls, as a little girl, I never even noticed that she didn't have them, so I never altered them. That was never on my mind at that young an age. I was more interested in her clothes. Children today are more aware of this, but when I was a child (several centuries ago), it wasn't something we were aware of (I'm probably older than many of you.) I didn't live Victoria in the beginning, but I really like her now. Her looks are growing on my, and I'm having fun finding interesting situations for her. I think with the right texture maps and lighting, she could be quite elegant. Melanie

Hi Folks! I've been composing custom-made genitals on my Poser figures since version 2, thru props or Photoshop-generated enhancements. One of the great things about this software is that everyone can be a Pygmalion--and there are as many ways to build a Galatea as you have time and morphs to play with. (If you don't know what the hell I'm talking about, go find those books on Greek mythology you haven't touched since junior high school.) Over many years of being a disk jockey and a serious record collector, I've acquired around ten different versions of "Up On The Roof." The only two worth listening to are the versions by The Drifters and Carole King, who wrote the song (yeah, I omitted JT's sappy rendition). But I keep all versions because I appreciate the possibility that one night, someone is gonna request one of those versions that I don't like--and I win a fan for life if I have it. I believe the greatest value to be found from Vicki and future Zygote characters is not in what they are, but in what they can be--and we in forums like this determine that by the extent to which we remake them according to our tastes. Vicki's physique pales in comparison to her posette siblings, but because of it she can assume a broader range of identities and body types than they can. Surely in the Poser universe there is a place for both Ethel Mertz and Laura Petrie. Maybe in place of free objects, Zygote can upload "service packs" a la MS that provide a regular stream of props and morphs to make our Vickies beautiful in each of our own eyes. Peter (Dr Zik)

I can't see the logic in the idea that Millie's physique being less athletic than Posette's means that the figure is somehow more adaptable because of it. What makes the new figure adaptable are the extra vertices and the way they have been cleverly incorporated. Releasing Millie as an athlete/model type figure, or not, is a matter of marketing, not mesh flexibility. Looking at the responce here, it is clear that those who like the appearance of the figure are vastly outnumbered by those who don't like it. As such, it was a marketing mistake. It's possible that Zygote may have planned a quick free update all along, and they may also have planned to extend the introductory offer period all along. It could also be that they quickly realised they needed to do a bit of damage limitation to increase the uptake of the figure amongst Poser users. I'm coming from the point of view that I want lots of Poser users to buy the figure. I regard Zygote as being a vital part of the Poser scene, and no-one is better suited to providing new base figures for the program than they are.

I just wanted folks to know that, yes, I am working on a set of genitalia for Vicki that's as anatomically accurate as the hip mesh will allow me to. I still have to solve the technical problem of forming labia minora out of a few available vertices. I'll eventually release it if Zygote doesn't deliver the goods tomorrow.

PJF, I completely agree that Victoria's current physique is not a factor contributing to her adaptability. Nor do I know what Zygote's original intentions were re free upgrades. I suspect the negative reaction came as a surprise to them. This makes it even more admirable that they are taking steps to keep their customers happy. In extending the discount period they are allowing us to evaluate the new Victoria without giving up the special price. Certainly one cannot complain about such fairness. (No, I'm not saying you were complaining- just commenting.) As for whether most dislike her or not, we'll probably never know. What we have in these forums are only the remarks of the vocal few. I expect far more users have opinions that remain unvoiced. Certainly the number of opinions we've seen pales compared to the number of Poser users. I wonder how many of us have used the original Poser. Advancing from that to Victoria in such a relatively short time is quite remarkable. Me?- now I'm waiting for Millenium Victor!

I'm back again- just checked the Vickie poll. Of those who responded, 39% either like or think her worth purchasing versus 36% who don't. Pretty close call with a slight edge on the yea side. But really, when a full 39% of a target market favours a new product offering one can hardly call it a marketing blunder. Companies are willing to kill for that kind of acceptance level!

I think what surprises me the most is that more people seem to be clammering for genitalia morphs more than for Victoria textures or stronger body-shaping morphs. Is getting the more-nimble Victoria into erotica THAT important? =) SnowS Hoping his pictures are worth 1001 words.

I find the lack of morphs disturbing, it is great that people are taking care of that. I also find it funny that female genitalia is more frowned on then male when the male genataila is so much more visible. Zygote should have added them with an on off dial :) The higher vertices looks nice, I wonder how Mobius' creation will stand up to Millie. Imaginos

The lack of detail in the pubic area doesn't bother me at all, I can see no uses for her that would require anything past what could be done in with a texture map. What does bother me is the fact that she is, to be realistic, far out of proportion for my purposes. Has anyone given any though to that fact that if we all go off, willy-nilly with our own set of morphs and adjusting scaling, none of the clothing is going to fit? When I develop my items for the Posette I'm always careful to use the default figure, I have my own "standard" figure, remodeled, but my clothing doen't fit that one except by adjusting. I'm under the impression that poses don't include scaling and morphs, only positions and rotations, but I'm unsre of this. If they do I'll include a pose with my Millie items, otherwise it is going to be a set of instructions on how to reshape her, as it sort of hurts my eyes to work with the standard figure

I am a big Vickie fan, so I will not get into the is she pretty or not thing. However, I really am disappointed that she lacks genitalia. Not because I want to do porn scenes with her, but because I do not want my art/children/thoughts castrated. It is a bit insulting to women that our intimate areas are dismissed or deemed inappropriate, when the male figures come with comically morphable genitalia. BTW, women have been depicted in art with their genitals for thousands of years, and not just in erotic art.

Hi Folks! I've made this point before, but perhaps I need to clarify it. For me at least, Vicki seems better suited for a character that needs to look like an older woman. To me the other Posettes seem to have been designed from the start to look best when they are wearing the least. And I think Jim Burton (FanTAStic neglig!) raises an important point. I'm glad there are so many morphs available for Poser figures--Trav and others have done us a tremendous service. But I've recently reached the conclusion that I will never find enough occasions to use them all the ones I like. I certainly think Zygote should have at least given Vicki the morph and geometry features we've found most useful in the P4 woman. Perhaps Zygote wants to see which of those morphs, etc. emerge as the favorites for Vicki, and then they will offer them as free--and I emphasize free--updates. Peter (Dr Zik)

In these Victoria discussions the lack of included morphs keeps coming up. But very few of Zygote's models (I'm not counting the ones included in Poser) come with morphs. As far as I recall the few ones that did are the dragon and demon and the morphs were relatively minor. Zygote has offered morph add-ons however. It seems that in this respect Victoria simply follows their standard procedures. I too want morphs but perhaps our expectations were not completely reasonable. Ah well. The thing to do is take the model and bend it to our will. Is that not the way of "artists"? Someone mentioned all the outlandish penile morphs. I've not seen them but they defintely were not part of the stock figure and were developed by the user community. In any event, I've not missed them. That damned thing gets in the way too often anyhow :-) BTW, has anyone looked at the dl stats for the various Vickie items? They range individually from around 700 to over 1,100. It is reasonable to assume that nobody will dl such a thing unless they have Vickie nor is it likely one will dl an item more than once. I'd say that implies pretty healthy sales for a product that everyone is supposed to hate. Yep, I'm quite pleased with my purchase... :-) But I'm still eagerly awaiting all those mods you people are dreaming up! I suspect that soon you will see just how sexy an older woman can be!

Pam, for the most part it was a dis-approved of practice. The greeks didnt sculpt them and typically either some piece of fabric or hair was strategically covering their bits or they were posed in a way that they didnt show. To be truthful the majority of the time it was when the church dictated what was acceptable and what wasnt since they commissioned most of the work. When the church wasnt dictating it the majority of Salons and art schools did. I dont say they have to be gone or anything and I can respect your need for them not to be castrated. Just that for me they dont really need to be there. If they are so be it. If they arent so be it. If I need to add them there are and will be morphs to get every shape and size of them. Have a good one

Just to weigh in on this--I don't care from an artistic standpoint whether she has genitals or not--though adding pubic hair to the texture seems only 'photorealistic'. However, from a woman's standpoint I do care that for some reason women's genitals don't seem acceptable on a 3D model whereas male genitals ARE acceptable. I find that unsettling. I just can't quite understand the reasoning, altho' just having pubic hair on the texture would satisfy me. I certainly include it on my own textures (though I never do nudes). Diane B

My only problem with genitals on the figures - one way or another - is that the male clothing doesn't seem to conform quite ... right if Genitals are on... I leave them off; I render clothed figures, and don't do nudes - but then I'm not really an artist either; I use Poser and similar stuff to create illustrations of charactes in fiction and in role playing games.

Hi Folks! I don't usually weigh in on the same thread so often, but there are a lot of provocative secondary topics being discussed here. I'm all for female models being anatomically correct. There's a wonderful photo book available called Femalia, which proves that the sight of women's vaginal regions is not only arousing, but because of the almost infinite range of variety, they are also beautiful to behold. Not long after I purchased Poser2 I sent an e-mail to Fractal Design, its then owner, chiding them for releasing the male with his stuff but not the female with hers. It's interesting that the "porn possibility" is a subplot in this discussion. It seems to me that historically in the adult industry the prudishness went the other way. The "mainstream" men's magazines (Playboy, Penthouse, etc.) depicted female genitals in full view long before they felt comfortable showing full frontal male nudity. It would be even longer before they would show a photo of a male in an aroused state. But once Larry Flint's Hustler pushed the boundaries, there was no turning back. Now you can go to almost any convenience store and pick up a magazine showing explicit pictures of sexual acts and "wet climax." I'm all for the depiction of genitals on 3d models--even on the animals. I hope that Zygote takes a more enlightened approach on this with the geometries of their future models. And I certainly hope that this issue of "anatomical correctness" isn't being blamed as an impediment to the purchase of Poser by a new company. Peter (Dr Zik)

Dr. Zik, from rumors I've been hearing, Poser HAS been acquired, but the people who bought it aren't ready to make an announcement for some reason, and MC is supporting their silence. In fact, from what I've seen so far, Poser was the first property to get a new home, but will be the last one announced publicly!

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; to HELL with ALL these perfect plastic washboard-stomached Vogue stiffs! HEY ZYGOTE! Give us some FAT people, some too-skinny people, some OLD people! Give us some REAL people!!!

Doubt anyone's reading this issue anymore... But I'll say it anyway: Ghostofmacbeth: The world does not nor has ever consisted of europe and it's colonies alone. Look at some older art from India, Japan, and China for instance. You'll find genitals on both genders and much less of the 'victorian prudishness'. Maybe there's something in Vickie's name after all. She's so much the victorian prude she's even gone far enough to have her sexuality smeared off. Now there are things I really like about this new figure, now that there are morphs out. But I don't think there's enough vertices down there to properly make a woman out of her without at best losing some other functionality. In the end we may see a combined morph and prop. A morph to build a big gap down there, and a prop that goes in it's former place. Or just a transmap and prop. I don't intend to be doing porn work either myself. But even without those two 'genres' there's plenty of non erotic nudes out there. And plenty that I do see in my future plans. (I need to 'illustrate' a tropical-bronze age fantasy world for an RPG). But even if I didn't have those plans, I would still be annoyed over the issue. I don't expect my figures to be perfect. But I do expect them to have a complete set of body parts.