Is it art to render a default-pose Vicky with super-sized tits, naked of course because dressing them seems sooo much work, no decent background, no nothing?  Look at the gallery, it's flooded with shite like that!  It is a lot more work to get a decent AI picture than to render those bimbos.  But hey, it's Poser so it MUST be art!!

never have had an account on any of them, generally always avoided them otherwise, have all browser gizmos i could find against their buttons/trackers on other sites - even if they still manage to sneak in quasi everywhere. the idea was interesting, but what has become of it is a global data kraken that messed up lives and privacy. if anything, social media should get banned from other sites, which should not be featuring their share/interaction buttons. like, you wanna do facebook? GO on facebook.

and while we're at it, if not already now, soon there will be AI on them in a form or another, so when this happens, quo vadis, rendo? two weights, two measures?

Hi,

My first impression is we can add that new sort option. :)

I've copied this over to our ticket support system, as it's easier for us to follow up with you as needed. Please check your email to respond.

Thank you for your feedback, please let me know if you have any questions/concerns.

I came to make a purchase...and find their store gone? Does anyone know where to find their items for sale?

Y-Phil posted at 1:09 AM Tue, 12 September 2023 - #4474450

maneki_neko posted at 1:15 PM Mon, 11 September 2023 - #4474442

i have absolutely no idea what this thread is about (i don't use poser) - but it should seriously get the FORUM THREAD TITLE OF THE YEAR AWARD! 

i've been trying to remove reality for a while too but wasn't very successful XDDD

Just to inform you that Reality was an external rendering engine, such as Octane. To use it from Poser, or any other compatible program, one had to kind of connect both programs. The title of the thread references to the steps to follow to remove that connection.

so, i just stumbled on this thread while searching with a string, and thought i'd make a little joke about the title, and now i learned something new ^^

thank you for the information - it's more general than i though, i was sure it was an intricate intern poser-only feature  i would never come across in my life. but knowing this might come handy some day!
EDIT: well.. daz forums where i just cheeked informed me the reality plugin was end-of-life in 2021. pity.

i have absolutely no idea what this thread is about (i don't use poser) - but it should seriously get the FORUM THREAD TITLE OF THE YEAR AWARD! 

i've been trying to remove reality for a while too but wasn't very successful XDDD

 i don't like the quotes in the title around "art", because they're the same as they were when other breakthroughs had been made.

hand painting artists said that as photography came up, since a click on a button could immortalize an image they'd need hours/days/week to paint by hand. or anyone doing hand made art as computers came up, just 2D graphics/photo retouch. and then again when 3D came up. and inside the 3d community, you have the hardcore creators, and then the lesser users of premade assets... etc etc. so now it's AI, and all the previous artists are again jumping up and down, because they had to do their art the harder way than the newcomers.

well, as long as people can spread feces and splatter random paint on a canvas, or stick some weird materials together as an "installation" (with questionable results, not talking about occasional great works), then give it an awesome trendy name and call it "art", and worse, sell it for abominable amounts while people starve and animals die - i don't think we should start judging what's "art" at all, because then it becomes complicated and a lot of hypocrisy is shown.

same for 3d stuff now here on rendo more particularly - as long as people can and do render boring and often offensive clichee chick nudes with poor skills, or feel the need to upload every single render they've made (so since they do, why shouldn't others..hmm?), or take random photos of every stone, tree, sky bit, dog etc while walking to work and expect from everyone to call it "art" on the same level as people who have created beautiful inspiring hard-worked-on 3D works, i don't think we can and should judge people who create with AI. either we only accept high quality self-made work which basically means suffer, getting frustrated, starting over and over again until you've reached a point and learn to manipulate a brush and color or clay etc, and maybe but really maybe also extremely magnificent photography showing some grand skills and subjects, and maybe amazing 3d art that is innovative and truly beautiful/esthetical...... or we are inclusive of all kind of manifestations of art and skill levels and amount of work involved, no judging - which means people who create with AI are part of it. period.

as to where AI learning materials have been "stolen", that is another discussion. involving real technical knowledge of how AI works and has been learning, and ethical choices in art and life (every artist complaining about how their livelihood is threatened should also be vegan or even fructivore, otherwise they are actively supporting the killing of other lives! not just livelihoods. and same for their clothing etc, only ethical - but do they all?), and how every art form learner has basically been copying others (would beethoven and monet complain if they were stilll alive? how many musicians start by covering others or use pre-made sound elements? do you brain bleach every time you look at a render or any art form just in case your brain would unconsciously get inspired and copy parts of it in your work?). i do NOT agree about how nobody was asked before the AI techs started scraping images and texts all over the place, this was wrong, and should have been done differently from the start. on the other hand, everyone should realize that once something is made public, and especially when made accessible on the internet, it's prone to get used by others, copyright here or not, so you want it safe, leave it in a safe, shit happens. anyway, that ship has sailed, and the databanks have been made. should the new technology get boosted back into the stone age now?

so why not embrace this new form of creation? at least when no (big) money is been done by totally cloning someone's work. reminder: an art style is legally not copyright-able. only precise works. there is some/a huge lot work to do about the legal aspects, the use, etc. and ways to make AI access impossible if you don't want your stuff to be scraped should be implemented. but compromises should be made on all sides i think, somehow.

so, i will not have someone tell me that some images i really loved making in AI, sometimes quick but sometimes with effort, and that i consider beautiful and pleasant to look at for others, are basically always worth less than any other 3d render or photo or whatever independently of the effort made by the other person and the resulting creation. nope. never.
and as insults go, according to the mention above, i should feel just the same then, when i spent hours/days on a daz scene, trying to create something pleasant or interesting to look at, and someone else is shoving some quickly or poorly made discutable stuff and is considered just the same... because so, basically i can produce any crap i want, as long as it's not AI then? ok, duly noted. lol. interesting point of view, worth studying.

also, some people have opted for AI instead of 2D/3D or other forms of art because they have physical limitations, or technical limitations, and their own story. but i guess anti-AI fanatics don't give a s***, as long as their narrative doesn't allow for this much consideration.

AI is a threat in life, that's a reality - because PEOPLE use it for fakes etc. the people are the problem, not the medium. it just helps. ban Ai and they will find other ways to manipulate people, they've done it for ages with tv. besides, y'all most probably have AI in your phone, and/or smart objects and houses. who doesn't use google or other search engines? online clouds? online subscription apps? everything today is a threat in a way. the whole problem are dishonest people, autocrats, etc. they just have better methods with AI. i don't agree with a lot of things. but AI art for fun like here is by far not the worst threat.

anyway.

so, i am not subscribing to this thread. i did for another and wasted a lot of time. i just said my opinion, i'm not arguing. which means i'm not following nor reading any answers. because basically, those against Ai art won't budge an inch, and those who support AI share some/all of my thoughts already and i don't have to inform/try to win them.

bye, i won't be seeing you here cuz i'm not following, nor in paradise, cuz i'm an AI art supporter so i'm going to hell ^^.

1)Are you still using Poser / DAZ / other 3d render applications?

B)I use less than in the past because now I am exploring AI but in the future I could use again more 3d apps.

2)What made you change your habit? (you can select more than one). 

A)Ease of use of AI.
B)Lack of time (3d requires more time). ESPECIALLY ON AN OLD CRAPPY LAPTOP
C)Curiosity and will to explore the potential of a new medium.
D)Other : i have a very old crappy lame laptop, means i can't even use "new" features (dforce, LAMH, particles etc) or heavy HD figures / every single little test takes an eternity to render and i give up many of my scenes tired and frustrated after a while / my scenes crash often or lag / i have to delete a lot of props from beautiful big scenes (landscapes etc) otherwise crash+lag / final rendering can only be made during my sleep because my (only) laptop is busy for hours rendering so slowly, and i can't render very big images over 1200x900 so practically unprintable .. short, 3d is/has become a source of more frustration than joy as the requirements have gotten higher (but anyway i never owned a high-end machine in the 1st place so i've always been very limited), because my machine is a worthless piece of crap and i'm too broke/poor to afford another, even 2nd hand. with AI i had a lot of fun, produce stuff i love, and i'm not limited by my stupid hardware.

3)Are you still willing to buy 3D content or to download and use 3D freebies?

A)Yes, even paid content. IF I REALLY WANT IT AT ALL COSTS I MIGHT SPLURGE OCCASIONALLY
B)Yes but only if free or very affordable. IF I CAN DO WITHOUT IT I'LL LEAVE IT ON MY WISHLIST UNTIL IT'S A BARGAIN BECAUSE I'M BROKE/POOR

4)When you started using AI you were using Poser / DAZ / other 3D applications for:

A)More than 10 years.

5)Do you have 3d modeling skills?

B)Hobbyist (intermediate 3d modeling / beginner learning and following tutorials).HAD SOME CINEMA4D AT SCHOOL, BUT FORGOT A LOT, AND SO MANY THINGS HAVE BEEN DONE ALREADY, WHY INVENT THE WHEEL TWICE WITH NOT SO MUCH TALENT...
C)Basic (creating simple scenes with props and primitives). SO IT'S WHAT I DO NOW

6)If you are a beginner (B - C of previous question): did AI affect your will to learn 3D modeling and/or to improve your skills?

B)Currently I am slightly less willing to learn and improve my skills with 3D but in the future could find again the will. BUT NOT BECAUSE OF AI, RATHER THAT MY FOCUS IS SHOT, MY LEARNING ABILITY IS SLOW AND ERRATIC ETC. WHAT I'D REALLY WANT BESIDES PURE AI CREATION BY ITSELF IS TO EMBELLISH MY 3D SCENES, TO GIVE THEM THE EXTRA OOMPH, BUT UP TO NOW IT WASN'T A SUCCESS, NOT WITH FREE AI LIKE NIGHTCAFE, THE RESULTS ARE TOO DIFFERENT THEY ARE NEW IMAGES WITH MINE JUST AS REFERENCE, NOT WHAT I WANT (and a PITA to explain the AI what's in my image, lol)

Miss B posted at 11:06 AM Sat, 9 September 2023 - #4474359

It's the weekend, so you may not get a response for a few days.

EDIT: nope, i've just got my answer from support, they were lightning fast ^^

update: OK, i opened a ticket...

thanks a lot RedPhantom and Miss B! hmm that's weird.. i didn't find it. ok, my inbox was flooded by notifications for the AI-ban thread because i had the stupid idea to subscribe to the thread, lol, so over 90 notifications for that. and the few daily other rendo mails, wishlist notif, new products etc. i searched my trash can too. so either for some reason i didn't get the newsletter... or i deleted the mail because it was hidden in the middle of the notifications :(

OK, I'm going to have my say here.

Firstly, the notion that AI "steals" peoples art/images/photographs is a myth.  It uses images as REFERENCE.  It does not copy/paste bits of artwork into an image to create a new image.  As a Vue user, I nearly always used photographs or paintings for reference, yet was never berated or banned for that.  Most "real" artists use references, be it photo, image or physical.

Images are made up of noise.  A demonstration of this is in the image below containing 4 shots of the progress from 0% to 100%.  As you can clearly see, there is not copy/pasting going on.  The images are being built up using noise.

The second image shows one of those 4 that has been taken into Photoshop.  A squirrel has been hand painted in, and some branches and leaves added.  Colour and lighting correction has also been done.  This has taken much more effort than loading a pre-purchased model into Poser/Daz, clicking on a few pre-purchased presets and hitting the render button.  This, although initially generated with AI has also been worked on by a human doing actual digial painting.  

This brings me to my second gripe.  Most of those whingeing about AI who are calling themselves "artusts" are a joke to themselves.   I doubt any of them have ever actually picked up a brush and painted on canvas.  THAT is a real artist.  The whingers are simply using 3D programmes to create what can only be termed as mediocre, boring and in many cases, ugly images and they're calling it "art". On the subject of ugly and flooding, I might highlight all of those NVIATWAS in the galleries. And before anyone jumps in and accuses ME of being the same, well no, actually.  I WAS painting on canvas using oil paints long before digital, and even long before PCs were around.

I despise hypocrites, and this is hypocrisy at it's most vulgar.

It's already happened in the gallery today....but to give benefit of doubt maybe they haven't heard yet but .....just saying.  :-) 

I too will abide by the rules.  But since that is only kind of images I make anymore I will take my "worthless art" somewhere else where there is tolerance for differences.  

i too will abide by the rules. from now on i will only upload daz studio made images. like a real artist. funny is, the majority of my assets were bought at daz... and some here. makes a lot of sense.

it's a rather simple formula, and it is most oft placed within the mathematics of money [easier to understand than all the rather mixed & complex feelings on this subject]...

Rendo offers its servers for free to all the hobbyists here - but still, those servers cost monies, as does all overhead, such as staff, programmers, developers, etc.

AI eats into monies in terms of people not buying as many assets perhaps has once they were.  also, due to the flood of AI images, and people's own individual moral code, Rendo has lost some vendors and other hobbyists who were also buying assets.

the difference between say a flood of AI vs. a flood of nude 3D models is that the creators of said model have been properly compensated.  many images that fed, or feed, into AI were scraped and culled from creators without their permission, and without fair compensation.  who has NOT seen at least a few AI images with vestiges of the original artist's signature kinda distorted and messed up from the AI algorithm?  those creators haven't said 'yea, use my stuff for free, but please mess up my signature, or make sure it has been obliterated entirely'.  if a creator does sell say a piece of their own artwork, there are terms that are attached to that sale, most notably that copyright thing. even mass consumption stock photos come with fair-usage terms and/or a license, though they lack the artist's signature.

even buying 3D assets doesn't mean you actually own them.  you have simply purchased a license to use them.  they are protected under copyright.

AI art is not 'worthless' - it simply hasn't been paid for, or licensed for use...

bottom line: monies, but what should be ahead of even that is respect... yanno, the kind you would want others to exhibit for/towards your own work

please note my post is not directed towards any one person in the thread or on this site.  i am merely trying to address some of the issues surrounding this topic...

I suspect prolific output to be a big part of this. Freestuff is full of AI generated material, not just the galleries. Rendo rewarding for that could be part of the issue. They are trying to sell assets after all not give them away. Servers, storage, and bandwidth are not free.

I do believe that this is slightly ill-considered. I have no issue with AI. Just the way some of the folk use it. Low effort type and go may be fun for some, but it just becomes so much eyestrain after a bit. NVIATWAS anyone?

prolific output might be easier to achieve with AI, true - HOWEVER i have seen for example prolific and absolutely repetitive outputs of 2D in the form of self nudes vaguely adorned of some kind of filters in photoshop, like whole series of them during days. maybe a bit more work than "clicking on a button", as non AI creators believe all AI images are done (and it's by far not always the case), but clicking on a PS submenu on a filter isn't exactly much more than a click on a button. i have seen the best examples of repetitive 3D NVIATWAS where there wasn't even a temple to begin with, just a blank white background, in daily batches, and i'm not commenting on the exaggerated borderline obscene degrading female form. my eyes are really strained to see those batches of pseudo-porn.
and as freestuff goes, i have seen millions of repetitive backgrounds made with some app that automatizes textures, i don't know how much clicks are involved but yeah, the freestuff area is flooded with them, additionally to packs of random photos from the street or whatever. i have to scroll a good few times before i come across a freebie that's not yet another pack of some backgrounds/textures, and i'm not counting the AI made ones, just the "human" made ones.
whereby, human... as long as a photo machine or a computer machine is involved, i'd say it's not more human. anyone wanting to be a purist should publish hand painted/drawn images.

short: it doesn't take AI to create floods of stuff where the amount of work and creativity involved might be questionable as well as the "art" quality, it has been and is still done in large parts with "conventional" 2D and 3D apps. and all those images, freebies etc have been well rewarded too.

personally, i spent quite some time until i had the one or other AI output, with many fails and prompt testing - and the ones i submitted in my gallery here were hand picked from many, the best, the ones i loved most, many of them beautiful. i also tried to upload a nice varied batch daily, different themes, colors, styles.
i created a lot more with Daz studio before AI, but with an old crappy slow laggy crashy laptop with which i can't even use the latest features (dforce, hair etc), it impacted the quality of my scenes and renders a lot, and i give up in the middle of like 99% of my scenes because of the limitations of my hardware and my patience to deal with this BS laptop.

so AI was a balm for my soul, finally being able to create felines with HAIR, clothing that moves, and not waste hours waiting for every single little test. and also be surprised by what the AI created, it's fun to not have everything under control, it's a joint work. i swear like a sailor when i use daz, because my hardware makes me insane - and i laughed so often at what the AI had concocted...

i will NOT have my images, because they were made with AI, being labeled as worthless workless flooding garbage while other people publish just the same amount of stuff where not much effort nor soul was involved and the results are anything but pleasant or useful.

if we're judgy, then let's judge everything - or nothing.

the sources of the materials used to train AI were questionable, i admit it, some things were not done in a correct way - but then again, people have been copying others in a form or another for eons. every single learning process is based on mimicry, and all forms of art are not devoid of examples, or we would still be applying our muddy hands on cave walls and beat on drums and scream inarticulate sounds with it..
i admit there are issues with AI, but flooding with stuff where not much work was involved is NOT only an AI issue, it's a PEOPLE issue.