The virus issue... someone up in the thread wrote "We are on the internet a lot and should know how to protect ourselves" — well, see, the operative word is "should". A lot of people dont. Now imagine the uproar if someone puts in a link that goes to a site that has malware on it. You think folks arent going to blame Rosity for that? Dream on, folks. Of course they are: "You should have told us! You should have known!" That's happened before, so can you really blame them for wanting to err on the side of caution?

I think you are correct about very few things here, meaning that Renderosity as you say should be active in removing any links with virus, malware etc from their site when they find or notice them. But i think you are misunderstanding the effect of this rule and why your view can actually be harmful for you. If you think that this will improve your security when browsing Renderosity you are doing so under a false impression of security, which can be very dangerous, if you dont want to get a virus.

So I would strongly advise you and anyone else thinking this way to rethink it, if you want to avoid these things, because this rule will do nothing in preventing you from the risk of getting a virus/malware and so forth from a link!!

If you want to protect yourself against viruses you need a virus protection software. There are free and very good ones available on the internet.

AVG - www.avg.com

Avast - www.avast.com

If you prefer better protection you either buy a license from one of these or one of the other companies that develop software designed to remove and prevent viruses.

If a person want to spread virus here on Renderosity, simply telling them to not do it, will not prevent it. Such person will post a link regardless of what Renderosity think and if they don't remove it fast enough or even prevent people from posting links in the first place, someone might click it and risk getting a virus if you don't use some software to protect yourself.

Also remember that Renderosity is only removing links to people that create freebie items, so a person wanting to spread a virus can simply post the link with a different topic.

People creating viruses, malware etc. and spread them are not stupid people and they very well know how to use a computer, the internet, forums and ways to spread these thing. There is a reason why there are so many companies develop software to remove these things, if it were a matter of simply telling those making them not to, then all these companies would be out of business.

Besides Renderosity making this rule in the first place, which was a mistake overall. Im really worried to see anyone actually believing this will help protect them against these things, because that is a serious problem.

So again and i STRESS it, if you want to be protected against these things get some virus protection software and don't trust any links on the internet, just because someone say they believe they are save.

There may well be some truth in what you say but to be honest I was not looking to blame someone...

Sorry, the "blame" stuff was not meant as if you were blaming someone. That was own view on you saying and a lot of others are not willing to give up Poser, but merely that if they did release new excellent characters with Poser, that people would most likely not care about these Genesis characters and therefore no reason to have a feeling of "giving" up on Poser. But can understand that you understood it as me referring to you. :D

These none SM/Daz3d figures should have a place as well, but I think it would be wrong for SM to not compete due to that. Because clearly Daz3D doesn't have any concerns about it and they are their main competition.

I, like some others, have invested too much in Poser to try and start all over again. I have gained a lot over the last ten years and although V4 is no longer my go to figure I am not about to dump Poser, which makes this move all the more important. What will happen to the support, limited I accept, to the figures that do not originate from Daz?

I understand that, but maybe some of the blame falls on SM as well i think. Each time they release a new version of Poser, they have the opportunity to do so with new figures and they do. But at least to me, they don't really seem to put in the required effort of making some that are able to compete with what is currently on the market. If they know that Daz3d is going to make it more and more difficult for their figures to work with Poser, then they should release there own. They did release Paul and Pauline for Poser 11, but to be honest they are not really a competition to the current characters available and they keep releasing the same old figures each release.

Content matters for users and I personally used to be very excited whenever they released a new Poser version, to see these new figures, but it have not really kept up with what customers expect when seeing the new content i think, as if they are not really up to date with what content have already been available for a long time. As discussed with other people at RDNA, it can't really be that difficult to find or hire a good 3d modeller to make a couple of good characters, instead of releasing some semi bugged ones that are not really attractive to the majority. At least i think it would have a huge impact on Poser users. if people that used it, didn't really care for the genesis figures due to them being so difficult to use and simply used those that SM delivered instead. I really have had no good experience with the Genesis figures in Poser and think a lot of other users as well would also prefer being able to bypass them, but it requires that alternative figures exist and I think SM could easily combat Daz3d by doing that, instead of constantly having to play by their rules, but if they don't care to make characters that can compete, of course Daz3d will try to force people to come to them by supplying better content that are designed for their software and not poser, which makes sense i think.

You know not see that, but it's the honest truth. We thank you for your dedication to our site and hate to see so many members unhappy with our changes, but please remember that we decided this as a team.

I don't think anyone see this as if it were your decision alone Hope, but as already pointed out by others, you and any other admin that interact directly with the community will of course take the heat straight on. But that doesn't mean that all the concerns that members have are directed personally towards you guys, in the end its directed against Renderosity as a whole.

In part, I do get why you're upset. It was too much at one time. But, change is never fun for anyone - including me.

Change is not something that can be generalized as being negative as if all changes for some strange reason is also always bad. If a change is for something better, then its positive, it all depends on how a change is received, and clearly the majority see this change as being for the worse and therefore negative and not fun.

Just because I may not take the suggestion, does not mean I haven't heard you out or listened to you. I am a great listener, so let's talk.

That you consider yourself a great listener, might be true, im not aware of what this is based on and why you consider yourself as such and stress why it is the case? Anyone can listen unless deaf of course. So its of little value as a skill in my eyes. How someone reacts to what they hear is what matters and don't get me wrong its not a personal attack, because you might very well understand what the community is saying and want to react to it, but clearly someone at Renderosity does not want to. And that is primarily what the problem is, you keeping stressing that these changes were a team decision, yet there have been no good arguments put forward to why this change is needed?

The initial idea that this would somehow help or prevent viruses.

There have been countless of arguments and questions from the community, trying to explain you why this can and will never work. Yet there have been no counter argument from you as to why any of these arguments are not true?

You claim to have or want to take responsibility in cases where people do get a virus.

Again lots of questions and arguments have been made by the community to why this is not valid. Such as in your own disclaimer clearly stating that you do not take any responsibility. The fact that its impossible for you to remove links faster than someone can make them. To what type of responsibility are you referring to? If you claim that you have responsibility how should a member that gets a virus from a link on your site react or expect from you? or is what you mean with responsibility just as it have always been for every single website with a forum on the internet, that they of course will remove links that contains viruses, not because they are responsable for them, but because its bad for their forum and they do it as a service to their members. Yet there have been no reply to any of these questions or arguments to why they are wrong?

Freebies should be uploaded directly to Renderosity

Tons of arguments have been posted to why this is a bad solution for those creating the freebies and for Renderosity as a whole. You have put forward arguments that people could buy adwords as a solution and yes that is a suggestion, but not really valid when we are talking about free content including a lot more arguments that i wont get into here as it would take to much time. Me and lots of others have made you aware that the changes you apply, will drive traffic away from your site and not to it and thereby you are removing the primary value with freebies. Yet there have been no counter argument to why this is not true either?

So you say that you are a great listener, but as i stated its of little value, when none of the arguments and questions asked by the community seems to get any answers. If this decision was made as a team, there must have been a discussion amongst you, and at some point you have gotten convinced that this was a good idea. So my point is, that since its a team decision there must be someone at Renderosity able to answer and present counter arguments to all these claims, because how on earth did you ever get to the conclusion that this was a good idea, if no one is able to defend it?

Can't say im surprised :) Did anyone not see this coming? Anyway good luck and btw Daz3d have a list of links to free stuff, maybe you can add a link there as well, at least people will know where to find you.

Not 100% sure, but my guess is that it will work just fine and most likely better. :)

**Say there is a Freebie I like so I click on it, it take me to Daz or another store, I then go one step further and start looking in the Marketplace for something else to go with what I downloaded. I find a nice product that is $15.00 so I buy it.

I am now putting money in some other vendor's pocket instead of a vendor here at Renderosity.**

I don't think anyone doubt that you at Renderosity want to do what you think is best for the site and that you are friendly people etc. What people are complaining about is the rules you want to apply, because they are so absurd that they make no sense. Its seems like you are trying a strategy that if you can create a dome around Renderosity then the members will be unable to see whats going on, on the outside. Like people wont go to these other sites regardless of whether you link to them or not? Like the knowledge of these places will magically disappear when you remove the links to them. Im sorry, but for one that have worked with computers my whole life and have a degree in advanced computer science and media science its like you are completely out of touch with how people use the internet. How on earth will you justify that, upsetting most of your community for something that is most likely not even close to having any positive effect on your income, and most likely it will have the exact opposite effect as i have already pointed out.

What do you expect will happen when people stop posting freebies here and instead post them on Daz3d? How much time do you think it will take for people looking for freebies to skip Renderosity all together and just go straight to one of the other site? Then you wont even have a chance of getting those 15$. Im honestly shocked, I have seen poor online marketing strategies and even been forced to apply some my self, but those doesn't even come close to what you are about to do here and i would be extremely surprised if you have a webmaster or online marketing advisor that he/she would agreed with this strategy as being good. I mean you gain absolutely nothing out of this, except your own believe that all of Renderosity members see the site as if its some sort of big happy family. Its an illusion,

And as someone already stated you can not let personal or a very few incidents with people getting a virus dictate your whole linking strategy, there are companies making a living out of getting rid of virus, please leave that to them. Besides that, you still allow people to link to none competitive sites, so what if people get a virus from one of those? Ain't you responsable for those as well or do you have some "special" technology so you know that the virus threat is somehow only isolated to the freebies section? If that's the case you should develope virus protection instead, because im pretty sure you have a very unique knowledge then, that none of the other companies will be able to replicate. I hope you see how out of touch this sounds and that you argument for why this will increase the protection for your members are completely from another world.

I personally think the new policy is a good idea, because it will lessen the likelihood of getting viruses, etc.

Have this been a huge problem? just wondering since if it were it seems strange why you haven't rolled out this rule once you noticed the virus problem. Im not really sure its a good argument or even method for fighting viruses.

Here is a suggestion against viruses:

AVG free virus protection

Avast free virus protection

Both of them are very good. Use avast my self. :D

I'm trying to think of both the business as well as the community members.

Can you try to elaborate in which way this will benefit the members? It have already been pointed out that its not your responsibility to whether people get a virus but clicking a link on your site that take them to another site. You have no way of removing links faster than a person wanting to post such link can post them. so if you mean that you are responsible and after applying this rule, someone gets a virus through a link that you didn't remove in time, will you then pay a compensation or what type of responsibility are you referring to? its absurd, So removing that part of the benefit. What effect are you aiming at for the people creating the freebies, as they have already stated that they are not interested in the "deal" that you are offering, which is perfectly understandable as its pretty much a one way deal. Contests with freebies will be quite difficult if there ain't any. So what are you offering those making freebies, that are so beneficial for them, that they should add all there stuff here and close there own sites?

What benefits do you aim for with Renderosity as business? You have vendors, customers and even forum moderators saying this is a bad idea. Freebies doesn't make you money directly, it make a stronger community under one condition, that those that make them post them here, even if this is only links to other sites, it have value for you, as you have gathered them and its quicker for people looking for freebies to go through a sorted and maintained list and thereby visit your website. Freebies them self wont converted directly to money, except through them driving traffic to your site with a chance of these visitors grabbing a few products a long the way, but this rule does exactly the opposite of that, because you are driving away those posting the freebies, so its bad for business as well. The vendors should be the ones supporting this idea, if ANY, but i doubt you will see any of us give you a thumb up for this idea, its so counter productive for the community as a whole.

Also people don't need someone to cheer them on, if things are bad and people are unhappy the only way to solve it is to listen to the community and fix the issues that they are requesting rather then spending time on stuff, that everyone clearly agree on is a terrible idea. It makes no different if this is an old idea that just weren't rolled out or not, it was just as bad an idea back then as it is now. So just because you haven't followed up on it, doesn't mean you have to implement it at all costs.

If you really stand firm on this being a great idea, then please elaborate on why this is good for both business and the community, because it seems like no one shares your view on this? You ask for people to trust you, and the only way I think you can convinced anyone about this, is if the plan make sense, its not a matter of just wait and see, because if you roll out this rule you will ruin your freebie section. And agree with 3D-Arena that you might as well close it then.

If you want to fix this and bring more traffic , perhaps it is time to rethink this rule.

Completely agree, applying this rule will not benefit anyone in any way.

**The off-site linking has gotten ridiculous as they decided to change the rule from "only links to sites that have marketplaces are prohibited" to "no off-site linking to freebies because we want people to upload freebies to Rendo instead" This new rule was posted JUST TODAY.

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2899703**

Agree, wouldn't consider this a very clever move either, most of all, because in general I understand why Renderosity doesn't want "commercial" links to other sites. But that is one thing. I personally don't think it makes any different whether someone make a direct link to a given site or whether its done the following way "Go to X-site and type Bike in the search field and it will be the first one in the search result". A direct link makes it slightly faster, but the end result is the same in either case.

Where it makes sense to not allow links is those that makes them with the only purpose of directing traffic to another site, with the clear purpose of trying to compete with Renderosity.

However freebies site should not be considered being in direct competition with Renderosity, instead it would be a much better approach to make a list of sites which have freebies and link directly to these. Make it so a person who offers freebies on there site can contact Renderosity and they can have a look at the site and if its not considered to serve the purpose of directing traffic then it should be added to the list with a direct link. This include all the other major sites like Daz3d, ShareCG etc.which also have freebies sections, again everyone know these sites exists, not linking to there freebies as well is simply trying to prevent something that is not possible. Even Daz3d links to Renderosity as well, so simply not acknowledging each others site, seems like a waste of energy to me.

I also share Poisinivy view, that if he/she have a site with freebies that clearly isn't in competition with Renderosity, but might make some income from ads etc by giving away freebies it shouldn't be of great concern to Renderosity. And even if they do have a small range of items they sell, I would probably not see that as a huge concern either. And if it is, it could simply be arranged that the prices on their site ain't allowed to compete with Renderosity. So there are lots of ways to sort that out.

I think it would be very wrong to assume that people having these freebie sites, would simply agree to move all of them here, because you think its a good idea and as IceEmpress, not that i hope it backfires, as its of little concern to me personally, but im pretty sure that it will.

In addition, we fear that any off-site links could be harmful to other members and could potentially give off viruses. For that, we'd be held accountable because we allowed them to be posted. So, we're also protecting ALL members in not being spammed or given a virus.

I don't think this is a valid reason for not allowing offsite links as you are not legally responsible for such thing. If that were the case and someone made a link on your site and before you could remove it, someone went there and downloaded something, Then in theory this person would then be able to hold you accountable for it which is absurd. If you are concerned about such things happening, you should copy the way all other major sites does it, which have forums. Which is simply to make the user aware when they click a link, that they are about to leave Renderosity and enter another site and they do so on their own risk.

**For example it is mainly directed at myself in a rather personalised fashion. It adds a number of barbs and negative terms including insinuations like "simply ridiculous" and "childish" and seems to primarily be focused on drawing me into some kind of argument. This is generally regarded as trolling in most circles.

My participation in this thread has been positive, brief and non disruptive. You have stated quite broadly that you have some issue with my statements and responded in a negative fashion with what could also be regarded as a number of personal attacks in your post. **

Im not making a personal attack on anyone, im having a go at some of the statements and arguments put forward throughout this thread. The reason behind that is, because people are well aware of what is meant by the rules written in TOS, but deliberate choose to misunderstand them, to the point where a Renderosity staff member need to clarify them, which shouldn't be needed. Im not making a personal attack on Redhorse, I simply disagree with his view and use of argumentation for his points and therefore argue why i think that he is mistaken, which is valid as that is what i disagree with. If any disagreement with someones point is seen as a personal attack, then you wouldn't be able to discuss anything.

I haven't attacked you either, but merely suggested that you should make an argument in support of Redhorse comment if you feel that he has a valid point. My statement is not directly aimed towards you personally, even though i quoted you, But is aimed towards behaviour where people that are clearly upset with something or anything that Renderosity does, seems to support each other regardless of argumentation for a given point. And i do find such behavior both ridiculous and childish, so its aimed at anyone that would choose to argue in such way, because its not constructive.

So its not in violation of the TOS as im having a go at a way or lack of constructive way for having a discussion, i haven't called you or anyone else anything inappropriate and would never do that. But wouldn't you agree when reading the TOS, that its pretty clear what is meant by it? And if anything i have said offended you, then ill apologize for that.

Sorry, can't restrain my anal self after reading above thread/posts. While still learning the art and all involved, I do know the spelling and usage of "their", they're" and "there." I know it's my problem, but it IS distracting......again, my problem so I'll shut up now and go back there, where they're waiting with their flames I'm sure. Cheers.

If you are referring to me, its ok. Im well aware that i should be more careful when using "there" and "their" its just a bad habit of using "there" where it shouldn't . But understand you point when reading my own post again :D

Also im from Denmark so english is not my first language but can understand that it would be annoying for someone for which it is.

Another good post Redhorse, thanks!

Im sorry to say it, but this is aiming towards being ridiculous, I respect and to some degree understand why people are upset, for instant, Hornet3d points of why he is a bit upset regarding the changes to the prime deal, because he makes a valid argument of why he would be. But most of the concerns posted or vented here, have nothing in that regard and it is or should be obvious to anyone reading them, that they don't.

I respect that you want to give support to Redhorse comments, if you share his view that the major problem with the "new" TOS is the lack of members being able to post direct links to other sites. But instead of simply acknowledging his post, why don't you support it with a valid argumentation to why he is correct? Because im the one arguing that this hold close to no truth whatsoever and therefore argue why this is not a major problem.

I respect that people have other opinions than me and that they disagree with Renderosity, as its hard to miss them since a lot of people are expressing there concerns regarding varies topics. Some make a good case for there concerns, like Bagginsbill regarding the lack of notifications, because it makes sense, it is very annoying that you ain't made aware. As mentioned earlier Hornet3d concerns are valid as well.

Looking through this post, its obvious that a lot people replying to this, deliberately do whatever they can to paint a picture of something that is simply not true, because any of these arguments can be prooven wrong simply by looking at the other forums and seeing that this ain't the case. Furthermore, its obvious that people "want" to misunderstand the purpose of the "TOS", because if it was the case that all these arguments that people make were true, every single post which hold any form of criticism of Renderosity would be removed, but that is not the case? There would be countless of posts on the other sites regarding the strict and harsh TOS they use, but there ain't.

That people don't find any usefulness in Renderosity is not true either, posts in Poser forum receive feedback, which help those asking. Santicor seems satisfied with the feedback he gets in his post regarding his character. The post "Deadpool" got help finding what he was looking for, so if you ask for help you will get it.

But ever wondered that people simply doesn't care to answer these posts, because they so obviously hold no truth to them? The only reason i care to do it, is because it annoys me, to see such statement being backed up by such weak argumentation.

Lots of the people replying to these posts from what i can see, are those venting at Renderosity for whatever reason and back up each others weak argumentations for no apparent reason. If you, as most of you claim loved Renderosity as it used to be and all hope for it to be closer to what it were, then the worse tactic you can do is to back up every single statement that have a go at them regardless of whether these are valid or not.

I think its fine that people express there problems with Renderosity, but at least do it when you have a solid argument for why its the case, anything else is simply ridiculous and childish.

One of the keys to running a successful business is to differentiate yourself from your competitors. Just because everyone else is doing something doesn't mean it is right or the key to success. Those who try something audacious are often rewarded handsomely. Look at how much money RedHat makes around Linux, an operating system that is available for free and may be copied and redistributed as much as you like.

Agree it can have value to differentiate yourself from other, but this is not black and white meaning that you have to do it no matter what. Renderosity could also give all there products away for free, which would make all vendors angry, but would have great value for non vendor members, now this would of course never happen, but such change would ruin the site as well. And personally i have no problem with links to other sites, but i fully understand why Renderosity won't like it. Besides that people already make lots of suggestions in post to whether people have checked some of the other sites for a certain product. For instant just yesterday if you look in the poser forum, the thread called "Deadpool" someone suggested the OP to check Deviant arts and ShareCG for what he is looking for, there are no links to any product on these site, but still it help the person looking for a given item. Now that thread haven't been closed, And this is just one example. So your argument rest on the fact that the thing that "ruins" Renderosity is the lack of a link in such post, but it makes very little sense. Most people already know these other sites exists and are still being made aware of them, so they can just type it into google and they can go there and have a look. They don't need a direct link to a product on another site for it to have the same useful value for the community. If your argument rest on the fact that other members should take the effort to provide links for people unable to search these other sites them self when given the name, then i find it to be a very poor argument for why this would have such great value and im not having a go at those asking for products that they can't find, but if they truely hit a wall in there search for something when not given a direct link, i highly doubt they will be able to even buy and install the product should they find it.

As i already pointed out, Renderosity differs from for instant Daz3d in regards to DRM, is that good or bad? and do you see that as having value for there members?

That Redhat have success using there approach cant be compared to Renderosity as Redhat is opensource, where as Renderosity makes there income from vendors and Ads. How would you suggest Renderosity to convince there vendors to apply there products for free? So the Redhat business model work because they operate in another market than Renderosity does. So if you should make a reasonable comparison you would have to compare Redhat with Microsoft and don't think anyone disagree which of them have the greatest success when comparing income.

So if im not mistaken your issue with Renderosity primarily rest on the lack of members being able to make direct links to other sites? because I have mentioned other sites several times already in these replies, so that is no problem. So you problem is not with them not using DRM or not allowing bad behaviour.

If none of them appear to provide value, we will choose another activity entirely that provides value to us, such as spending time learning a 3D modeling package, going for a bike ride, or hanging out with friends.

Im sorry i dont understand, what you expect from Renderosity, its a company making money by having a community of members that shares a passion for making art, 3d, 2d, photos etc. as a service for there members they have made a forum for people to get help and a marketplace where people can buy items. And regardless of what initiatives Renderosity makes for giving values for there members, you can and should still go for a bike ride, hang out with friends or learn a 3d package if that is what you want. That doesn't mean that you can't enjoy coming here and spend some time as well. Of course Renderosity is competing with everything else, all companies does that if you take it to the extremes, but then you might as well argue that you think Renderosity should compete with whether you should go on holiday or whether you should spend your time on there forum....im sorry but it makes very little sense to me.