**not so, people cannot complain without being given a warning and in some cases, having your post removed, as was the case with myself (and my complaint was perfectly within the TOS).

as for the whole DAZ thing - that is DAZ - different store, different community, and its rules have nothing to do with renderosity.**

I haven't read the post you are referring to, so not able to give my view on it, also i can't exclude that errors might have occurred in that particular case. But i have no opinion regarding that incident as i don't know the facts. Besides that its not up to me to make a judgement about it anyway, im referring to general rules stated in the TOS. But as a vendor im in regular contact with people at Renderosity and my experience from that, tells me that these are people you can talk to if you feel something is off limit or you have been treated unfair.

As Hornet3d also indicated criticism is possible since the two of us shared view on the prime deal in another thread and it haven't been closed.

That Daz3d is another store, its of course correct, but its business is within and directed towards the same customers just using another software, but a lot of the content being sold is useable in both programs. So I don't think im wrong in assuming that a lot of the users there also have an account here. So if they are used to hanging out on Daz3d and come here, its not like entering a completely new world with new rules, people etc. Which is also indicated by the similarities in the TOS, which i already pointed out is almost 100% identical to Renderosity. So i don't think its a valid argument you make, even though Daz3D is a different shop a comparison in behaviour is very much possible due to the shared users.

Besides that im yet to receive a warning for any post where i criticite Renderosity, like the chat with Hornet3d in the other post or my last post in this thread regarding the lack of functionality in the posting tools and the missing notifications. But again, I haven't read the post you are referring to that was within the TOS according to you, so have no opinion about it.

Frequently the product on the other site required or at least complemented something in Renderosity's huge store resulting in a sale for both Renderosity and the other site. Then advertising competing sites was banned and the forum was renamed "Marketplace" or something like that, and only contained announcements about new products in the Renderosity store. Pointless. If I wanted to see what's new in the store, I'd go to the actual store (crazy, I know). That's when I gave up on the forums, though I continued buying from the store. I didn't really come back to lurking around the forums until after all the recent changes to the site and Prime membership. I've stopped buying anything, but enjoy watching a good train wreck.

I don't see why you would have a go at Renderosity for this. There are nothing uncommon or weird about this. The rules that applies on Renderosity are 99.9% identical to those of other sites. On Daz3d, if you read there TOS is following the same rules, they wont allow links to other brokers either. What i don't understand is why this rule is highlighted as being a disaster on Renderosity, but with compared to for instant Daz3d, and most likely all the other sites as well, you don't mention it as being a problem?

So if we compare Renderosity and for instant Daz3d, they apply the same rules, but Daz3d aims towards DRM which Renderosity doesn't, so at least in that regard Renderosity would be a better choice for you?

As for the "censorship", consider that passionate complaints are a sign of a healthy community. It means the members care enough to tell you what you are doing wrong so you can serve them better and ultimately make more money, keep your jobs, etc. If the complaints stop, it isn't because everything is OK, it's because no one cares anymore. If the complaints are censored, you will simply drive away your most passionate supporters, the ones who care enough about your business to spend their time trying to help you fix problems you may not be aware of. Embrace the gift of complainers. They will help you grow your business.

People can complain, why is it seen as you can't? And again its no different than on other sites.

This is from Daz3d TOS for instant:

1. Criticism should be directed towards the subject or topic at hand, rather than an individual. Posts which make blanket, unreasoned criticisms - of other members, of Daz 3D, of products or applications, or of merchants and their products - may be removed in a general effort to control negativity.

2. Posts that are obviously designed to provoke, shock or anger will be removed and action taken as needed. This includes posts attempting to provoke a “site” or “app” war, the excessive use of strong language, or any content designed to create a negative emotional response.

3. Attacks towards any member, moderator, admin, or Daz Staff will not be tolerated.

So they don't allow "bad" behaviour either, but complaining in a civilized manner, is not "bad" behaviour. Its not indicated by Renderosity nor by Daz3D reading there TOS.

Again, i find it difficult to see in which regard Renderosity is so "BAD" in this regard compared to the other sites when they do exactly the same?

Renderosity decided to change there site, this might in some regards have been for the better or the worse, that is what it is and hopefully they will improve area where it didn't go as well and yes its annoying during the time its like that. For instant the tool for adding posts are a bit annoying i think, The area in which you write is to small and the tools a bit limited. But its not the end of the world, you can still make posts, add images, links etc. and people will reply to you if they have something to add. That you don't get notifications when someone replies to a post is really annoying as well, but hopefully they will fix that as well. But regardless of this, sticking to the topic at hand which is about the TOS and not the website, this simply doesn't differ a lot, if any from any of the other brokers.

Just a guess, maybe you saved something there that Poser is trying to get access to?

Thanks. You're explanation makes sense, will try increasing the subdivision bit by bit and see how it improves but I have no idea how to edit it or change the mesh polygon count. I didn't make it myself, I bought it from 'volacce' here on renderosity marketplace. It's supposed to have bebeen built specifically as dynamic clothing for the M4 figure in Daz Studio or Poser. That's why I joined here, just to make the purchase but then I hit the forum to say hello and ask for help when I encountered problems. I'm a karate instructor and hope to use the model and clothing on my karate website to help students learn and to catalogue the hundreds of techniques. I'm a beginner to 3D modelling but would like to get to grips with Poser as it will be handy for art as well. Is draping a good idea for this cloth? At the moment drape is set to 'off' thanks again.

I don't know the set or how it was made, maybe you can increase the subd for specific parts depending on how it were made. Meaning if each part, like the top, pants, belt etc are individual parts, then you should be able to.

Regarding drape, I personally never use it, because i Pre-fit my cloth, meaning they are designed to work with default T-Pose for the figure that i made it for. Draping for me is mostly useful if you need something to drape over something and you made it to be out of the way at the beginning of the simulation, like a cape over something or if you need some cloth to be relaxed before simulation.

But if the cloth is made to fit the default T-Pose it shouldn't be necessary. But there are several ways to relax the cloth, in Poser you can add the cloth and just simulate it while the figure is in the T-Pose, the cloth will then relax to the pose, then you export the cloth as a OBJ, at the frame you like and reimport it. Then it will have the relaxed pose and you will save time having drape it.

This is a set of cloth I made for the image below (Which is also for M4).

As you can see the cloth is already draped to fit the default pose and each piece of cloth is made so they are relaxed to the pose. Also items such as the belt and shoulders, where you have a lot of bending or deformation have higher mesh density already built into it, to avoid bending problems. So the mesh in the cloth is not uniformed evenly across the cloth set, but increased in areas that needs it and reduced where its not needed as much.

Now in the final image you cant see the belt, but you can see that the cloth folds nicely around his shoulders and around his legs. But it looks to me, that your set doesn't requires draping. But you can see that in the default pose, if the cloth is hanging on the figure as you would expect it in the real world or whether its surrounding the figure. Easiest place to see it is with the arms, if the top part of sleeves is resting on his arms and the lower part is floating beneath it, then its already relaxed. If its not you can do as i suggested above, but its not needed i think, because its a pretty tight outfit, meaning no cape etc. Also it seems to simulate fine enough, but certain parts might simply not have the mesh details required to make them fold correctly and relaxing the cloth or drape it, wont solve that.

The way you have to do it is a bit weird.

1. Select the "Render" tab

2. In the top you can select which render you want to use, most likely it says "Firefly" or "Superfly", Press this and select "Preview"

3. Press Render button. You will now get a cartoon render, without the camera node etc..

You can import objects into MD and simulate them like they were made in MD. You can change the properties of the fabric and apply pressure. In the simulation imported objects interact with avatars, ground and other clothing. What you cannot do is sew to them. This is the big drawback right now. You cannot use them easily as 'preform' for armour or bra cups. You cannot use imported objects for buttons, clasps, et cetera.

Cool didn't know that. But yeah agree that you cant sew them will be a problem. :D

Excellent, thanks Andy, so pleased! Would you mind explaining how to add subdivision for me please? I had a play around with dials but can't seem to get rid of the weird folds, not too sure what I'm doing, just trial and error for me at the moment.

The weird folds comes from the lack of details in the mesh, so you can't solve that through the cloth room it self. Here is an illustration:

As you can see if you try to bend a plane with only 2 polygons, it will only be able to bend at the middle, which will result in a sharp fold, which is what you experience, as the subdivision is increased you get a smooth bending, which will be the same for making folds in cloth as there are more mesh details for the cloth simulation to work with, thats the only way you can solve you problem.

The last image show where you can increase sub division in Poser. However keep in mind that this might not be a good solution as it applies it to the whole object, which means that to solve the fold problem, you will increase the amount of polygons so much that your simulation time will be so high that simulating cloth will be a pain in the butt. Besides that you might risk ruin details in the cloth, because of the smoothing.

The only real solution is that the cloth you are using are designed correctly for dynamic simulating. If you made the set your self, you can of course fix it in the 3d software you use, or if you know how to work with a 3d app, you can load in the obj and fix it as well. But its one of the most important things, if not the most important thing when making dynamic cloth in my opinion, you have to design it specifically for that. You cant simply make it the same way as conforming cloth, it wont be good.

But you can try to increase the sub d. But keep in mind that increasing this to much will most likely crash Poser and make simulation time so high that its no longer fun :)

I know that you can import crafted and simulated cloths from MD to Poser. But is the other way around possible too? Lets say you already have the (dynamic) cloths (.obj), but want to use the advanced features and much less time consuming simulation methods of MD, on/with your beloved Vicky-whatsoever in MD, and import the obj's into MD. Is this possible, too?*

I don't think that can be done, because in MD you can change the cloth mesh on the fly. So think it would have a hard time knowing what settings to apply to an imported obj file. But might be wrong.

Hmmm, that's a shame, though understandable. If we could import animated figures or use the physics in Poser then that would be awesome, but it seems there's a big gap in the Poser software allowing for realistic cloth dynamics. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong, but I've never managed to get dynamic cloth looking smooth, no matter what I try.

There are methods of which you can make work arounds for this.

In this image: Cloth

The cloth is simulated in MD, but the cloth it self were designed to fit V4 in a T-Pose, so there are ways to do it, however keep in mind that MD even though its faster, when you are simulating with animated characters the simulation time goes a lot higher, so its not insanely much faster than doing it in Poser. The biggest benefit using MD for simulating i think, is the flexibility meaning you can always adjust your cloth real time or while its calculating. Where as in Poser you have to simulate and then see what the result is like.

But Poser simulates cloth rather well i think and if the cloth is made correctly you can simulate it quite quickly with good results as well. The biggest problems with Poser simulation settings is that a lot of settings are fairly difficult to work with, meaning the values them self doesn't give you a good indication of what they should be for a given type of material.

For instant Cotton, Silk, Leather etc. The only thing you can do is change for instant the fold resistance, but whether it should be 35 or 350 is not very clear.

The second biggest problem i think, is the lack of a way to set a initial cloth state. For instant a person that is sitting down and then get up, the cloth will behave differently than, for instant having to do it so the person starts in the default T-pose then sit down and finally going for the final pose of getting up. Unless you are using a lot of frames for the whole simulation, the forces on the cloth will be wrong. Besides that no one want to simulate 200+ frames for something like this.

Last Poser seems to have a bit of a hard time working with rigid objects in the simulation, so improving on that would be nice as well. But even with these issues, you should be able to get smooth results using dynamic cloth in Poser i think. Otherwise maybe you can make an example showing what issues you are facing?

the question is not: is she perfectly anatomically correct when compared to scientific modeling tools ? I could have done that easily. the question is ; "how does she look" ? appealing? or is something "wrong" In your opinion...... boobs too big? head too big? feet too ugly? butt too big? butt not big enough?

I see what you are saying, i personally wouldn't use a cage to size my character, because i think you might risk getting something that is a bit to robotic, but it can be a good idea for practicing. But for me a human is not that different than for instant modelling an advanced machine, in the sense that the underlying structure is carrying the surface. In a human its the bones, muscles. If these are wrong the skin wont look correct either obvious.

Now the biggest difference between a machine and a human, besides the obvious of course :), is that we as humans our self are extremely effective or good at spotting if something looks odd when looking at other humans, which makes it a hell lot of harder making a human model compared to a machine, because we expect less or are not as good as recognizing machines as humans. But there have been a lot of scientific studies of for instant beauty, which RorrKonn also sort of mentioned. so my point is that even though you mention that you are not that concern whether she is anatomical correct based on a scientific model, its very important i think, because if you are to far away in these proportions it will be notice automatically, maybe not down to every single detail, but we will recognize it as if something is wrong.

And that is where anatomic reference images gets handy, because they can help you place bones and muscles correct and with these you can place skin on top.

So at least to me at first glance, i think the feets are to big. I would also reduce the breast size, simply because they seem a bit out of proportions with the rest of the body. At least while you model her i might be a good idea. Because breast size tend to follow the amount of body fat. But its not a heavy model.

I think the legs need more volume, it doesn't seem to be able to carry bones and muscles while being that slim.

I also think the wrists are to narrow and the forearm are to long, again if you look at the anatomic illustration and try to draw a straight line from the wrist across her body, you can see it insect higher on her hip than yours does.

I think you hip area is quite good.

The head does have some problems, which i mainly think comes to the cheek and lips area, something seems wrong here, but its hard to see with out a closer look. And still think the former suggestion would fix most of it.

The bones connecting at the front, (Those going from the middel of the chest, just below the neck to the shoulders) need to have a bigger gap, they are to close together i think.

Thats what i mean, if i make a post and forget to check the "Nudity" checkbox when i press "Add comment", Now if i then edit my post and check it and press "Update comment" the "nudity advisory" is not getting added even though i checked the box.

What do you mean by this, "should there be a Yellow warning in the top of the post if it applies...." ? Do you mind explaining a bit further, please??

Its red, so i got that wrong :D

I mean that "Content advisory - Nudity advisory" which is written with red in the top of the post. Does that make sense?

@3D-Mobster - To go off of what Kristi said, the reason why we created the other Poser forum is because in the past, newbies to Poser had always gotten jumped on, bashed and made to feel stupid, so we created a separate one where they wouldn't feel this way. It's been a great way for them to learn and not have to worry about feeling dumb, that's all.

Its perfectly fine of course, it was just what i would do :D So im not going to spend a lot of time or energy arguing against it, simply because as i wrote, I don't see the reason for making the forum as a valid solution or a good one, because if new people are "treated" that way and the moderators of those forum doesn't or can't prevent it or its simply the accepted tone there, then the actual problem seems to just have been avoided rather than fixed. But anyway, its just my view and if the problem have been sorted and people are happy with it then i guess its fine. :D

Does this happen right after you post it or 15 minutes later?

It happens straight away, but maybe its because you can't see your own filter? Shouldnt there be a Yellow warning in the top of the post if it applies, can see that on others post, but not my own.

The more round shoulders look a lot better i think.

Here are some more suggestions:

• The outside of the shoulders seems a bit to bulky, i think.

• Maybe smooth out the waist a little other wise she might look to slim here compared to the rest of her.

• The collar bone seem to connect a bit to close to the shoulder.

• The wrist seems a bit to low, if you look at this reference image: Female anatomy Also the wrist seems a little to thin i think.

• The thumb might be a bit to short.

• The feet might be a bit to wide, if you compare they are almost as wide as her leg. If you look at the reference image above, they are slightly bigger than the calfs.

For the head and the stern look you could try something like this:

• Her cheek seems to be to sharp, if you compare the roundness of the girl and your model, Her cheek are much more smooth.

• The upper lips might help if they were a bit narrower in the horizontal and not as big as the lower lips.

• The chin might need to be more round as well and slightly shorter.

Anyway think it looks good overall, so these are just suggestions and also keep in mind that these are made based on your images so, maybe i got it wrong. :)