Please believe me, I'm not wanting to start a flame war or any kind of controversy here. I really do need clarification. I read the threads which Anton posted to earler, which implied that characters derived from "dial spin" morphs cannot be legally distributed. Now, I just read a post which suggests that as long as the character cannot be loaded without the necessary geometries and morphs purchased from DAZ. So, what's the position, please? BTW, if this starts to get out of hand, I'll be more than happy if the Mods lock and/or delete it.

Well, let's cut right to the chase here :-) here's the link to DAZ faq list, second one in the top section should cover it, entry is WAY too long to copy and paste here http://www.daz3d.com/pages/faq/faq.html

Haha, great joke. :) I have read this damn page a hundred times but it's still no clearer. I need a specific answer to the specific question: Are "dial spin" characters legal to distribute if they are saved/encoded in such a way that the need for the DAZ original geometries and morphs is not bypassed? And if they are not legal, why not?

At the risk of stepping on some toes, if the need for the originals is not bypassed, yes, you are OK. The problem is that not everyone agrees on the definition of "needed". For example, say Bob creates a custom face with Vicki 2, spawns that, and then distributes this is a squished OBJ. The reason this is not kosher is that anyone with Vicki 1 can then use it, giving them the benefit of V2's morphs without buying her. From a highly simplified pragmatic standpoint, if you're using morphs on the figure, distribute as a pose. If you're using both built-in morphs and your own original ones, either have both parts separate or make a morph injection/replacement pose.

In general, things that mandate you have you have the base file, V2 for instance, for it to be work have been allowed also things the need objaction mover (or mac converter) have also been allowed so from my non legal point of view if you strip the file down to a bunch of v-lines it should be ok

We can't tell you what Daz will allow, Sam. Daz can tell you what they allow, but they can't tell you what's legal. Only a judge can tell you what's legal if Daz takes you to court for copyright infringement (which is extremely unlikely, I admit).

"Are "dial spin" characters legal to distribute if they are saved/encoded in such a way that the need for the DAZ original geometries and morphs is not bypassed? And if they are not legal, why not?" IMHO, they are - for instance, I listed the exact dial settings and dial lists for Paige, part of my Younger Vicky 3 project. I don't intend to sell the character, so I just listed each and every dial I used and it's setting (except the face - I'm picky about that :) ) However, these settings are useless to you unless you actually have and inject the morphs I reference... so yes, what I did was perfectly legal (I just wrote them out as an ASCII text file.) OTOH, if I was to save the results as a morph (.cr2 or .obj) and distribute that morph (even as a morph-specific .obj file), I would be giving away a lot of DAZ' copyrighted work to folks who have V3, but may or may not have the Vicky 3 Basic Morph Pak. HTH a little, /P

hmmmm....I'm with Sam here, as in a little confused on this issue. To me, there's a couple of things here to think about and discuss, if you will. 1) What's legal for free distribution 2) What's legal for commercial distribution Someone tell me if I'm wrong with the following assumptions: Regarding free distribution: The ultimate problem here is allowing someone who only owns the Vicky 1 CR2 to have access to Vicky 2 morphs from the Vicky 2 CR2. So, if I create a character based on the V2 CR2 and distribute it (with DAZ morph data) for free, I'm basically in violation of the agreement with DAZ. If I release my custom CR2 with no morph data i.e. Muscular=1.0 (without the deltas) I should be within legal limits, simply because I'm not releasing the actual deltas. If the person's Vicky CR2 doesn't contain valueParm "Muscular"...it simply won't work. Now if I decide to include the DAZ morph deltas for some reason and, using Objaction Mover, encode the file using the 'blMilWoman' OBJ file...I'm very much in violation because both V1 and V2 use the same mesh and I've just given a V2 morph to someone who doesn't own it. For commercial distribution, the issue seems a little more complicated right? In this situation, if I create a custom character based wholly, or in part, on standard DAZ morphs...I'm in violation because I'd be gaining financially from something I technically didn't create. Now here's where I'm a little confused (I'm not a commercial vendor, but I'm interested none-the-less). What if I create a character package, including textures, poses, character morphs...but it just so happens I created the morphs from DAZ parameters (i.e. "head fairy" or "head hag")? Would I be in violation in this situation? Perhaps the commercial value is not in the morphs, but in the total character package that just so happens to contain settings that utilize the DAZ morphs to facilitate my character concept. I tend to agree with DAZ in their right to protect their product. There are alot of things out there in the marketplace that make me scratch my head and say "How can this person be making money on this stuff?" But, that being said, there are also alot of great products out there, well worth the money spent, that may fall into the nebulous grey area previously mentioned. And honestly, I know they're protecting their investment, but do you think they'd honestly bring legal action against someone here? If so, that's really a shame...perfectly within their right...but a shame. Biting the hand that feeds you comes to mind. Am I basically correct in my assumptions here? If not, how?

I haven't seen any distinction in distributing for free vs. for profit. This issue is copyright infringement, not presence or lack of creativity. For example. If I want to sell a new "character" which is simply Vicky 3 with the "muscular" morph turned to 0.8, and I wish to distribute that "character" as a text file (like Penquisto has mentioned above) with instructions to turn the dial to 0.8, I am in no way in violation of the agreement with DAZ. This does not violate their copyright. Now, if someone wants to buy my fairly creatively challenged "character", that's their problem for buying a product with such little creative content. But by selling such a product, I have not harmed DAZ. That said, the way Penquisto describes distribution is not very different from the way DAZ has said is ok... use a pose file to specify all of those dial spins. It's fine to give for free, or it's fine to sell. Every customer will have to have the morph packs, so DAZ is not hurt.

You know what.....if you really want to know what DAZ thinks is ok or not, why not email them...tell them their faq is confusing. Call them on the phone! The phone number is listed on their web site and it works....I called them once! There doesn't seem to be any point to discussing this issue here as everyone has a slightly different take on it. The final arbitar it would seem to me, is DAZ since it's their models you are creating morphs/poses for and they own the copyright. I would imagine they have people there who would even look at your creation and tell you if it's ok or not. I can't imagine they would turn down someone who said: "hey, would you guys take a look at this and let me know if this meets your requirements?" I would think they would appreciate the fact that you wanted to be legal about it.

Geez.....it's not rocket science and a simple phone call or review of your product may save everyone a lot of grief.

Attached Link: http://www.findlaw.com/01topics/23intellectprop/

You cannot sell anything that contains the V2, M2 or V3 morphs. So no obj derived from their morphs, no cr2 with their morphs, no pz3 files with their morphs. A pose file that sets the dials? sure, go ahead A pose file that injects your totally original morph? Sure A pose file that injects an original morph and spins the dials to make a character? sure Generally, if you didn't make it you can neither sell it or give it away. Plain and simple. Clarified? grin Lyrra

So even if the morphs were a mish-mash and combined to make one specific morph. Then it's not distributable? That's like saying I cant sell a cake because there's copyrighted flour, or eggs or yeast in the mix. If you're trying to keep someone from getting a free morph for a figure without buying the original product. Understandable. But flour, eggs, and yeast cant be pulled out of a cake once mixed. Once individual morphs are combined into one, they cant be pulled out again either. Not anyway that I know of at the moment.

If I make a mixed morph using DAZ Morphs and Magnets and combine it all into a OBJ, then I take that OBJ and use mover on it with the V3 Morph Pak as the seed file, then all I am distributing is a .pcr file which contains the difference between what I've made and the actual Morph Pak's installer file. Therefore, just like PZ2 distribution, I am not allowing anyone who doesn't already have the morph pak access to anything they don't already have. This was my suggestion before, and I still loudly say it's way, way valid and should be acceptable to DAZ, if they are reasonable people, which so many people say they are. To say "No, that is not valid" is not good enough. I want to know why this isn't valid. -WTB (Who is grateful this topic is brought up again)

Jaager, I have offered a solution. What is wrong with it?

Dave: (using V2 as an example) it is more than redistribution of the pristine morph, Your combined morph in question would not have existed if there were no V2 morphs, so making such a combined morph and sharing THAT is giving use of those morphs to someone who does not own V2. The morph OR its USE as an ingredient, if what you have done could not exist without those DAZ morphs, you may not distribute the work as deltas or as an OBJ file. You may distribute how to use the morphs - as keys - ie. a pose file. DAZ should just simplify all this and say that their morphs may not be shared - combined or loose - period - V1 V2 M1 M2. Splitting these hairs seems to confuse some. V1 and M1 morphs do just fine as keys too. Greg, if Russell could get RTEncoder as a Mac version, you could encode using one of the actual protected morphs as a key. It looked like Anton was trying to keep it simple and you are doing stunt flying - legal but beyond the ken of most. In your place, knowing the process to be within the rules, I would just do it and not ask, at least not in public. It does not seem to be a method they wish to encourage.

Now we're getting somewhere :) Someone has finally admitted that the idea is solid. As for macs...well...sometimes "PC only" is the best you can do. -WTB

Re the cake analogy: "That's like saying I cant sell a cake because there's copyrighted flour, or eggs or yeast in the mix." Actually it's like saying that if you made a cake with your own eggs and sugar but with some stolen flour, then you can't sell the cake because it contains stolen property, which is in fact the way the law works in most countries. "Once individual morphs are combined into one, they cant be pulled out again either" Sure they can, as long as you know how much of each morph you put into the mix, you can take it out any time. DAZ even have step by step instructions on how to do it in their FAQ. You just set your combined morph to one, then set the DAZ "ingredient" morphs that you need to remove to the negative of whatever setting you had for them when you made the combo, then you can spawn a new morph which will be completely free of the DAZ morphs. It takes a little work and patience, but that's the price you have to pay if you want to distribute characters that rely on somebody else's morphs. I agree with what Lyrra and Chanson said and therefore won't repeat their points. I think Lyrra's summary of what methods of redistribution can and can't be used is an excellent guide. William the Bloody, The mover approach is fine in theory but it has some big practical drawbacks. Firstly Mover won't accept a binary as a seed file - it needs text seed files - so using the installer as your key is out. As Jaager says, you could use one of the actual protected morph injection poses as a seed, but that approach will only work if all of the ingredient morphs you're trying to protect come from the same pack, since Mover only accepts one seed file. I'm not sure what RTEncoder can do but at Jaager points out, there's no Mac version yet. In general, the approach DAZ suggest is a good one. It doesn't rely on any third party software and just requires you to keep track of how much of each of their morphs you use and then take it out again before you distribute.

Here's another way. HdAfrican4 .5 HdAsian2 .5 HdMale2 -.414 Face Square -.5 EyesRound .327 Brow Soft .5 EyeHeight -.5 EyesSlant1 -.3 EyeLidsHeavy .5 Nose Pinch -.643 Nostril Width .5 CheekSink -.182 Blink Left .1 Blink Right .1 BrowCurved .750 (MaleMorphPack) EyesCircular .9 (MaleMorphPack) JawlineSMooth .3 (MaleMorphPack) PuffFace .5 (MaleMorphPack) Then add the French Vanilla Makeup map and you get a Jerri Ryan type look from Voyager. Anton came up with this list and I copied it out of the thread it was in :-) NO BODY can get 'legal' over this way of giving away morphs since it's all text

Ajax: "Sure they can, as long as you know how much of each morph you put into the mix, you can take it out any time. DAZ even have step by step instructions on how to do it in their FAQ. You just set your combined morph to one, then set the DAZ "ingredient" morphs that you need to remove to the negative of whatever setting you had for them when you made the combo, then you can spawn a new morph which will be completely free of the DAZ morphs." I don't follow. How can one do that if one doesn't have the DAZ morphs? Look at it this way. Suppose I make a face for V2 using all the V2 face morphs at different settings. I spawn a single head morph from the result and call it "Clarissa". I now give the Clarissa morph target to someone who has V1. If they load it, they can recreate the Clarissa face with settings from 0.0 to 1.0 but I don't see that they can possibly extract all the individual V2 morphs. Technically, I agree that in this case the Clarissa morph would probably infringe copyright, but in practice I don't see that it would be harmful in the sense of dissuading a V1 owner from upgrading to V2 because he/she could get V2 by disassembling Clarissa.

Let's say that the end user ONLY wanted Clarissa. If you distributed Clarissa's head as a face file, then the end user would have to by V2 to be able to use Clarissa. But, if you spawn Clarissa as a morph target, the end user only has to have V1. Lost sale. The end user is able to get the benefit of V2 (the changes that turn Vicky into Clarissa) without buying V2. Does that help?

As someone else pointed out... When in doubt, call Daz. They have a nice 1-800 number. If you're shy, Lyrra's post was pretty clear- ========================================================= 12. You cannot sell anything that contains the V2, M2 or V3 morphs. So no obj derived from their morphs, no cr2 with their morphs, no pz3 files with their morphs. A pose file that sets the dials? sure, go ahead A pose file that injects your totally original morph? Sure A pose file that injects an original morph and spins the dials to make a character? sure Generally, if you didn't make it you can neither sell it or give it away. Plain and simple.

Ok. Let me head this one off at the pass before I start off on a new project I had in mind. I have a clothing item in mind for V3. Once I get the mesh divided up for body parts and materials and such, conform, I need to spawn morph targets so it will fit V3 in her many shapes. Typically I would use The Tailor to help me out and make the morphs. So I'm guessing now that said product would be undistributable because of the morphs, but would be pretty useless without the tailor morphs. Am I wrong in this assumption?

Jaager hit it right on the head! The only way to do a character that uses DAZ morphs is a pose, ideally combined with a injector (to make sure the right morphs are present) for V3-based ones. Other solutions smack too much of "but it is easier for me to do it this way"! The injectors aren't all that hard to do, incidently. Dave- The clothing morphs will be your creation, and while DAZ has been unhappy about clothing that will fit and cover a figure to the extent that the actual body morphs aren't required (as they can't be seen) in the figure, that is a separate issue.

FireSpiryt: Yes, if it were the case that the end user ONLY wanted Clarissa, which would be a very modest want. It could equally be the case that I made the Clarissa morph directly from the V1 head (in which case all would be OK anyway). Either way, the user gets ONE morph target which is not actually any of the DAZ morphs and which can't be used to reconstruct V2 for free. I'm not disputing the rights and wrongs of this case (which are clear IMO), my point is only that the damage done to DAZ by the distribution of the Clarissa morph target is so trivial it's not worth worrying about of itself. The only real danger from DAZ's point of view is that it might be taken as a precedent for justifying something that would be more serious.

Something more serious? Such as? I believe this all started over some images that I posted in another thread and the process that I got there. I thought as you did, Phantast, that as long as the morph was ONE morph ( dials set of number of morphs but spawned as one), that it was legal. It would have to be squished of course. But it keeps being disputed and declared as illegal. If that be the case why bother with character creation at all?

Attached Link: http://www.rbtwhiz.com/rbtwhiz_rScript.html

This read-script utility should be out later today as I said, and the product page will explain better what all it can do. One other nice feature it has is that it will also read in any custom work you've done (in the pz2 or fc2 format) and include that within the read_script file it creates for you. So, it will allow you to call up all of the changes you have made all at once.

Unfortunately, this utility only works with figures that have the correctly coded cr2 such as Victoria 3. As we update our others figures (Michael 3, etc.) to have this same technology, then we will concurrently update this developer tool to work with the other figures as well.

Any information you want on read_scripts technology may be found at the above link.

We apologize for the confusion that such topics often create, we will look over our FAQ and see if we cannot make it more clear and concise.

Thank you,

Steve Kondris
DAZ Productions, Inc.
www.daz3d.com

Thanks everyone for your opinions, contributions and insights. I'm somewhat clearer now. Now let me explain the reason for asking here rather than phoning or emailing DAZ (yeah, I know it's not rocket science, thanks ;))... First, I live in the UK and 1-800 numbers aren't valid. My phone bill is already frightening, due to my gf living in Oklahoma. I can do without racking up more cost on that, thanks. Second, I was concerned that if I emailed DAZ, they may just refer me to the copyright FAQ, which as I mentioned before is not too clear on some points. Third, I know that various DAZ personnel read and post here, so I was hoping to get some info direct from the horse's mouth (as it were). Anyhow, I reckon I have it all pretty clear now. Maybe. :) Thanks once again.

SamTherapy, Anytime you have questions on copyright issues, please feel free to email us, while we will definitely point out our FAQ where applicable, we'll also take the time to give some specific instruction for the instance in question. :) Steve

What's wrong with an open discussion? Isn't it good for everyone to learn, submit input, opinions, SUGGESTIONS and solutions? Every single time something comes up there's always a load of people "take it to email, take it to IM" blah-blah-blah. Well I, for one, would like to see an end to this sort of behaviour. Steve, please read and address my suggestion as an alternative for pose files. Jim: It's not that it's easier to do it that way, it's just already been done that way. It's too late, for example, for Rogue and I to share our V3 Buffy with those who might want it unless an alternative method, like coding against the original morphs as I've now suggested 1 billion times, is allowed, which it should be, because it accomplishes the same goals as dist. a pose file. -WTB

There is nothing wrong with a nice, civilized open discussion. However, if you want a quick, clear answer, the best way to get it is to go to the source, not hope that the source may just happen to find and read your thread. Things don't ever seem to stay simple around here anyways. Especially when people resort to shock tactics like accusing someone of starting a 'Witchhunt' and using 'Gestapo Tactics'. ;)

We're all for the open discussions and public mulling over of issues, however, as Caly said, sometimes it is more efficient/quick to just ask us directly.

As for the procedure that WTB outlined in post #14, I think our FAQ does a pretty good job of answering this question for you, but since its quite apparent that many people find it less logical than we did when we wrote it, I'll walk through it with you. :)

"Because DAZ sells the Victoria 3 product(s) in a different manner from previous products, the distribution of add-on files for V3 involves some new practices, as well. However, as with all of our products, the guide for what files/data may be distributed can be found in the answer to this question: Will the distribution of a file that is based on a DAZ-sold product be useable by those who haven't purchased the original product from which it was created? If the answer is yes, then the file cannot be distributed legally. In almost all cases this means that Geometry and Morphs created by DAZ cannot be included in the distribution."

Okay, so WTB, will your procedure satisfy this statement? Well, assuming that any OBJ's that you distribute are properly "squished" or "stripped" (vertex only obj), AND assuming that the only DAZ made morphs that you use are part of the package where your seed file comes from, then YES, this procedure would be okay.

I would like to stress again that there are several ways to satisfy this statement currently, and that in the future, new procedures/applications/file formats, etc will certainly create new ways to satisfy this statement as well. The most important factor is simply whether or not the above statement is satisfied by the procedure chosen.

Again, any specific instances that you are unsure of, please feel free to contact us directly. And I will see that we update our FAQ so that it can provide this same information in a more digestable format. ;)

Steve Kondris
DAZ Productions, Inc.

Well, there it is, and that is very nice, thank you Steve :) Now, there is one other issue I was hoping would be addressed from a previous thread, for the benefit of Merchants past and present (and freestuff providers.) Anton, in a previous post, made reference to DAZ's desire to "Look more closely" at character paks for improper distribution of morphs based on theirs. Which is fair enough, but he also mentions that DAZ will be reviewing older paks for V1, V2 and other legacy characters. In a thread before this, he said that there is a "New Method" used to create V3 morphs so that they are readily identifiable in an investigation. This implies that past characters had no clear way to be so identified. When you combine these two ideas, one is left with the impression that legacy characters and their morphs are not easily identified, what with the lack of the "New Method" not being used until V3. Was Anton just flapping the gums or does DAZ really intend to investigate legacy characters where no solid detection method is available? Furthermore, what is the New Method for V3? Does anyone besides DAZ know how provable future accusations will be based on this new method? I believe it would behoove us to have some idea of what kind of means will be used to persue infringers, because anyone so accused should be able to defend themselves if they are innocent. Thanks again, WTB

Charlie Tuna, If transfering morph dial settings as you have demonstrated in #19 above, please consider the following: Select Body and then Copy the parameters dials and paste into Notepad, WordPad, etc. But don't clean up the file. Then a Select All, Paste back into Poser with Body selected and all the dials will be set at once! No paramet dial spinning or typing. But for anyone trying to input a list like the one you displayed, consider doing an initial Copy of the body settings to Wordpad (or even Excel) after zero-ing the figure. Then edit the resulting file to match the supplied settings. Finally Paste your new file back onto the Body. Much easier than typing each value into each dial individually.

I'm wary of script-based solutions, because it assumes that everyone has the same file structure, which is not necessarily the case. (For instance, for me it is intolerable to have the top of the pose menu cluttered up with all those !V3 folders; I've shunted them all to the bottom). Another little question - how can you prove copyright infringement on a morph anyway? Take, for example, "mouth raised". There's only one way you can do that. Whether I use the DAZ V2 morph or lift the vertices myself the effect is identical. It's not like appropriating a mesh, because there are no signatures in the details. And you can't compare exact values as per the great light set debate, because the amount the morph is applied varies.

Steve, Where do we get this readscript utility? I don't see a link to download it on the page where they talk about it.

Pete, where were you looking? I cant find anything about it at all under than rbtwhiz's site. I've been looking on Daz for the utility but cant find it either.

It will be there with the update tonight I believe.

The "new method" of spotting morph copying could be a new way of analysing third-party morphs, rather than something special in the V3 morphs themselves, in which case it might well work with earlier figures as long as it wasn't too dependent on high vertex count. It's not as if DAZ have a history of evil-doing.

Totally, RH. Still, curious. -WTB

Attached Link: http://www.rbtwhiz.com/rbtwhiz_rScript.html