Ok I didnt know where to put this so I am puting it here in the poser forum. I have a few other galleries, but one is a huge miff for me, why? because it wont accept my poser work as it is "obviouse use of digital tools" now it is under digital art so GO FIGURE. anywhooooooo Poeple scream all the time that Poser art isnt art due to the fact that the people dont make the models/textures/poses/props {what ever they didnt make in the picture themselves}. Do we scream at a photographer that he is not an artist because he used a model? Do we scream at a sculpture because he didnt first make the clay or metal or glass? Do we scream at a painter for not mixing his own paints? No...we do not. We ARE artists. We use a medium to creat art. we take a raw material and ""mold"" it to something else. That is art. It is no less art then the painter or photographer. and in some ways harder. I have even seen those that use poser as a base."paint" over it and claim they never used poser at all. Why is it the "dirty secret" of some artist? Why should Poser artist be made to feel as if they are not artists at all? I can guarantee you that it is not all that easy to just open poser and make a picture. It takes work, just like any art does. It shows part of the artist in each piece. So why it is frowned on...why it is looked down on??? Poser art is Art. it is not "poser crap" it is not "glorified barbies" it is not "obviouse use of digital tools" {god that is just...I mean come on it IS a digital tool} It is art, and those in here work at it. SO lay off the "poser crap" and that poser artist "arent -real- artists" Ok enough ranting. :) DarkElegance

If an "Art" site cannot accept or even see the art of a piece of work apart from the medium it is made in..then they are the greatest of hypocrits. The art of a piece is not in its medium, but in the coposition of all the elements involved to make up the piece. Rawnrr

Rembrant did a painting called "Night Watch", heres how he should have signed it. Thanks to Bob, Bill, George, Henry, Rich, Tom, and all the gang of the night watch for posing and permiting the use of their "likness. Thanks to Williams Armor for the armor design Thanks to Jakes Weapons for swords, spears, daggers, etc Thanks to Bubbles and Trixie for use of their likeness' Thanks to Harriet dress' Company Thanks to Acme Archatechure for use of building fronts Thanks to Ace Cobblestone Company Thanks to Johns Pet store for the dog used Thanks to Frankys mother for letting little Franky pose Thanks to Ryans Torch Company Inc for use of their torches Thanks to The Klink Lantern company Thanks to many, many others for use of their products All Rembrant did was copy/rearrange/compose everybodies elses work, and "render" it. I guess he isn't a artist.

I absolutely agree...I did a piece called Dragon! last year after the Mil Dragon came out and posted it to a Live Journal community I belong to because I was proud of it. it received an anonomous comment of:

"Another poser picture wooohooo. You do know why that program is called poser. Its for Poser 3D people that can not do anything in a real program. So forgive me if I'm not too impressed, although the layout of the picture is nice and it looks good, but it would impress me if you had not used prefabricated models and textures. Now you have layout, try a real program, LightWave, Maya, 3D studio max, and build a real 3D project."
I was so angry. But I felt a bit better when the piece won honorable mention in the DAZ medevial contest :). Why do people assume that just because someone uses Poser they have no talent? If anyone's interested, you can see the image in my gallery :)

Some people equate using Poser to having a Barbie Doll, fix her hair, pose her with props and clothes set up some oights and take a picture of her. In that sense people will always refuse to see Poser as art. Poser is one of many, many tools. I use Poser as what it was made for back in 1994-5 ... a digital mannacan (sp) I draw from the Poser images (whether produced in Poser, Bryce, Lightwave ...etc.) To me it's the resulting artwork that is the goal, not what tools were used to create it. I admit, my finished work ... goal is to use traditional media such as oils, watercolor, prismacolor, pencil or pen ... but still, I've set up my scene lighting and models using Poser as well as other digital aides. It doesn't make my BA in art any less ... I just don't have to pay a model $45 an hour and buy a bunch of cameras and lights to do my pieces. There are as many oppinions on this as there are types of artists and types of art critics. This debate will never end ... but at least we have a choice to accept someone else's view or not. Nameste Boni

Unfortunately, until the providers of the packaged models start making models that are useful in professional illustration type work, you are going to continue to see this bias. I've repeatedly begged, groveled and cajoled here and at DAZ for models that can be used in the project I am working on. The main problem is, there just isn't much of a market for Vicky naked or nearly so in a temple holding a sword. I send out portfolios at the rate of about 10 a week. Any image I have sent as a QUERY for professional illustration contract have resulted in "The art is great but the subject is a little too T&A/Cheesecake for our target market". I have a stack of letters like that at least 2 feet high. Now the ones I have sent that feature Mike, clothed, tend to get a different response. It isn't the PROGRAM that is causing the negative responses, it is the GENRE and TYPE of images that are proliferating that have caused the negativtity. Addtionally, most of the gaming markets are HEAVILY slanted towards male characters. There isn't enough Mike stuff out there to feasably illustrate or produce a high quality game. Again and again I has begged for more Mike stuff and the general response is: Mike stuff doesn't sell. I can point to a huge reason that Mike stuff doesn't sell. It's because the modelers and artists HERE at Renderosity don't USE or VIEW Mike stuff. And the unfortunate result is that The commerical modelers and texturers have limited their products to items that are only posted here in the galleries. My last 3 commerical contracts were for male characters. The limited amount of Mike stuff is going to make it more and more difficult to get commerical contracts for the simple reason is that ALL THE MIKE STUFF has been used. Repeatedly. so how long will it be before those commerical contracts start to get fewer and further between because of a lack of variety? Pretty damn soon I can tell ya. If you want your art to be taken seriously, you'd better start demanding variety in clothing/props/characters that are saleable in illustration. Or take his advice and start modeling them yourself. My pair of pennies

Don't let that bother you and persist in making what YOU think is YOUR art. In the end, it is the only thing that matters. Like many other fields, Art is filled with territorial Elites that will do anything to preserve their little domain. From their point of view, it is frustrating to spend hours building their own model only to see a little punk come in with a poser image and save hours with a similar result. Likewise, traditionalist painters were upset when Photography turned into an art form. Or marble sculptors were upset at bronze artists because they used cold heartless metal instead of natural stone. And so on.... it is unfortunately a trait of human nature to categorize things and create clans. But by the same token, there is hope for us. One day poser will be just one tools in the toolbox of the digital artist. And one day, we will be the elite frustrated by future punks who will scan a scene with 3D holograms instead of painfully posing their model like we used to.

This was what I was expecting when I entered my Poser picture in the OU staff art show. That is why I was so shocked when I won first prize.

SkyeWolf, Your answer to the person making that DUMB remark about your dragon pic should've been.. "Well did you program Lightwave then?." People who say stuf like that are DUMB and hypocrates, I mean if you follow that train of thought... You'd have to be God to be an artist, as he's the only one who truly created everything.. well at least according to the bible, I mean if ya believe in all that stuff :) Art can be anything, a tree can be art, nature it's sculptor, and the photographer that takes the picture of said tree, isn't any less and artist because of it. My $20 (inflation ya know)

Oh and I fogot... BOB ROSS is art!!! :D

"To me it's the resulting artwork that is the goal, not what tools were used to create it." Exactly my point, Boni... As far as I'm concerned, many of the Lightwave/Maya/Max etc "purists" who look down on Poser shows a considerable lack of understanding when it comes to art. They are mainly interested in engineering, in the technical aspects of the creation. Not in the end result. Of course the "engineering" aspect is interesting, but it has very little to do with art. I'm sure that Michelangelo and Rembrandt could have had a very interesting discussion about the technical aspects of brushes, but I doubt that they would refer to that as "art talk". The same applies to a discussion about Poser vs. Lightwave or when comparing the usage of NURBS or subdivision surfaces in modelling. Interesting from a technical point of view, but from an artistic point of view? No... Interesting for a viewer who appreciates the end result? Not at all. It's natural that a certain amount of "geek talk" flourishes at a site like this, since people here are struggling with the technical aspects of rendering and modelling to make their art. But we should keep in mind that tech talk is tech talk. Art talk is art talk. In the 3D world, these two are very often confused with each other.

Hi Just my 2 pene'th I have never said I'm an artist what I am is a model maker in the physical sense of the phrase in that I use my hands/tools to create my craft whether it be a plastic model aircraft, a vinyl Dinosaur, a Wooden Sailing ship or a diorama containing miniatures and other elements. I actualy think 3D imagery is closer to the latter. I do most of this because I enjoy doing it and it makes me feel good, after all it's something I feel I do well. Feel free to disagree with what ever of mine you have seen, though none of you have seen my physical models (I may post pictures some time) The only thing that annoys me is all of the bs that is spouted about 'art'. You all know the sort of pompous ass I mean who stands in a art gallery or on TV and just comes out with a load of gibberish about how the composition represents this or that or the feeling that the artist was trying to impart. To that I say 'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder' and not what You say it is! I guess what I'm trying to say is as long as the person who creates the image is happy then who the heck cares, obviously helpful criticism helps a person to grow. Dave

I have been thinking like Hisminky for the about a week now. There are two things that can happen. Furious Labs could add modeling functionality to Poser. Since you can only use the premade figures without spending way to much time/money on another modelling program, this has created a trend of Vicky, Vicky, Vicky (not a bad thing entirely). Or, as Hisminky points out, a bunch of us need to start modeling the vast variety of things that need to be modeled in order to begin to round out the Poser application. Now, I have seen the price of models drop dramatically over the last two years, and it looks like nobody would be able to make enough money on a model to justify how hard/long it would take to make, especially if it has a very limited use. So, although the quality of the models has increased, the price of any model has plummeted. The situation, based on supply/demand makes it very unlikely that a variety of "more useful" products will emerge. We should formalize "wish list" format to allow modelers to respond when they know roughly how many people will be interested in "toilet paper rolls, towel racks, etc." In other words, we could find a way to fairly distrubute modelling assignments so that we don't each make the "best roll of TP ever" and then have fifty five dollar rolls of TP! Without some type of organization, I think it will be literally years before Poser renders begin to diverge from each other in appearance.

I published this article on my own website.. hope you enjoy it.. You can pretty much draw a line through the middle of the 3D elitists based on age. The younger the "artist" the more inclined to be prejudiced. It's like the High School Syndrome "Mine is better than yours, so there". (Of course, my high school syndrome analogy is a much diluted one of the hypothesis that all children are pack animals, but I digress). The ONE thing that they all miss is the whole POINT. Art is an expression of self in a given medium. A voice that communicates an idea from one person to another. Not everyone will "hear" the message, because the message was not intended for them. Others will be profoundly touched by it. The ones that loudly proclaim its not art because of "this program or that tool" are merely deaf to your voice, either by design or deliberation. I can also guarentee that anyone who espouses elitism on so basic a premise as "tools" have not studied art. And let me clarify that taking an "art" class does not mean they have studied art. A large portion of the people who have taken an art class seem to believe this gives them a licence to judge art, which merely proves MY point. If you must judge an image/illustration/painting/print and use the excuse of TOOLS to discount it, then surely you are deliberately deafening your ears to the message.

okay, but, it is fun to learn to use lots of tools. i happen to like modelling. that doesn't mean i can stop using my vicki....not until in about 50 years or so, when/if i get enough skills to make my own full detailed character. poser is for posing. and, it is pretty good at that. now, i think lightwave, since it can bone and animate too, may be able to "pose" figures.....but, how much effort would have to be expended? (the manual is over a thousand pages, and, i'm just trying to get a small hold on the modelling functions, at this time.)i'll say this: if it takes me even LONGER to get a decent pose than poser does...well, i won't use that function. if it does the job, it does the job. and, there are a couple of poser artists over at raph.com, if memory serves me well.

No, no, please don't put down Bob Ross!!! How many people can paint a realistic landscape with nothing more than a 3" brush and a knife?
Poser and other apps like Vue and Bryce will continue to be considered a way "cheating" to those who have mastered the higher-end apps. People like originality. Unless you have made extreme changes to the figures, people will recognize them as being sold and not created. Yes, more respect will be given to those who create their own figures, but that doesn't mean you should have less for those who don't.
If you create for yourself, ignore the reviews and do what makes you happy.
If you create for others, listen to what is being said and be prepared to make changes to please the critics.
Understand that most of the time the word "ART" is being used, when a word like "Fresh", "New", or "Unique" is meant.

Remember, it is your world.

I agree with many of your points, however you must also take a look at the other side of the fence, and see why these comments are being made. Lets face it, with poser... in most cases people take a pre-made objects, props, poses ect...then modify them untill they look good to the artist. However a great similarity would be to take someones painting... throw a few extra colors on the canvas, paint in a few extra peices... and call it your painting. The fact of the matter is it is not. You made a few analogies throughout your message post which didn't hold much weight. <<>> Now come on lets be serious here. A sculpture artist takes raw materials, and sculpts it into his vision. He does not find a rock in the shape of "David", add a leaf and call it a sculpture. Secondly, whilst a painter does not always mix his own paints, he does in fact turn liquid in a palette, into a vision. He doesn't simply take pre-existing painted figures, add a few colours and props, and call it a day. I'm not trying to start a heated argument. I'm offering you an intelligent answer from the otherside of the fence. Unfortunately it is about exactly how much you do, and what you make it mean in the end of the day. Obviously effort accounts for somthing. If someone puts a lot of effort into an artwork, makes everything from scratch, spends hours and hours making an object polygon by polygon, rigging their character, animating.. whatever... it shows patience, and a clear understanding that this artist took an idea in his/her head, and paved the way untill the vision was complete. Now I've seen some amazing Poser artworks, that I loved. They were highly original, very skillfull, and looked amazing. But lets get honest. Compared to the excellent poser art out there.... there's a heck of a lot of crap that's thrown together through a few modifications. These artworks are what attract the negetive comments. Instead of getting upset at the comments made about poser artists and poser artworks... Make it an opportunity to prove yourself. Show that whilst you may not take the raw essentials through the whole process.... you are still more than capable of taking pre-existing help, and making it a unique and amazing vision. How often do you scroll down the poser gallery and say "yep, seen this one before... . yes and this one... ooh there it is again"? The difference is, when you see a unique, and amazing poser artwork. You don't see the poser in the front. Same as when you see an amazing lightwave artwork, you don't know its lightwave, or maya or 3dstudio max for that matter. So Cheer up, and keep producing amazing artworks. If negetive comments come your way, let it roll of your shoulders and make it a task to prove those comments wrong. Because you know that if your artwork is phenominal, people won't care how it was made or what with. Mark J. Taylor Just a friendly view from the otherside of the fence

Well spoken.

er ok for one I was a professional artist long befor poser. I HAVE sculpted and I have painted I even carve,learned lapadary and did tattoos. So I do know what it takes to do a piece. Second I will tell you this it is FAR easier to take a pencil a piece of parchment and draw then it is to pose, light and render then post work a good poser piece. {btw, I have plenty of awards for my work so I know I dont suck and I know something of what I am talking about} I do not model but I do texture. and that is not easy {god I am glad no one can see my first test textures} But I do not care what you say Vicky by herself is not a realistic pretty picture. You have to add your personal touch to get anything even remotely nice from her. {as far as poser crap there is also alot of 2d "crap" animation"crap" and any other "crap" I am sure that plenty thought that cow manuer on the pictures of the virgin mary was not art but others did} Poser is not crap. It is a tool. plain and simple. It is what you do with it that is the difference. I have seen people scream anime is not art...well I tell you what try to do decent anime and you will see it is not easy and how much talent goes into it...same with poser.

I have seen people scream anime is not art... hummmmm....glad to find this out. i watch anime cartoons, every saturday, in hopes of getting inspired to make an anime character. back in the old, bad, hippie days, i worked for disney studios in animation....i made basically slightly different hand draw changes on a given body part...on graph paper, day in and day out. but, aren't the disney movies "art". i chose not to spend my life hand altering a region, ad nausem unto forever...soooo, i tried to learn more. granted poser poses some challenges....but, alot of that is due to its interface. i like challenging myself. i WANT to do it all...make it all from scratch. to me, aside from childbirth, that will be the closest i come to being a goddess.

you said; Unfortunately it is about exactly how much you do, and what you make it mean in the end of the day. Obviously effort accounts for somthing. If someone puts a lot of effort into an artwork, makes everything from scratch, spends hours and hours making an object polygon by polygon, rigging their character, animating.. whatever... it shows patience, and a clear understanding that this artist took an idea in his/her head, and paved the way untill the vision was complete. bull pucky- crap is crap- even if you make all the crappy pieces yourself. it's the eye- some have it- some don't tools don't mater- just end results a hundren years from now they'll look back at the beginings of photon art (hehehe) and call some of us the Masters of our age.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12444

Hey everyone, thanks for your great input on this subject :) Just wanted to drop in and remind everyone that We Do Have A Wish List Forum :) Its creation was a direct result of one of the Poser Threads a several months ago! So if you are in need of a specific item - Please post it in the MarketPlace Wish List Forum - It's the best way to match up your idea with someone who can make your vision a reality! ladynimue

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=274566

It's like geoegress said: "it's the eye- some have it- some don't" I like to think I have it to at least some degree. When i started out with poser, I used Posette with prefab poses and prefab textures and was immediately unhappy with the resulting "barbie doll" (ack i'm glad I never posted that first render) Texturing takes a lot of work and a lot of practice (as I am finding out) and not everyone can do it. I for one do not like to put out images "straight out of the box" so to speak but on the other hand, am extremely proud when an image looks good enough without postwork for me to put my signiture on. Most of the time I feel that an image needs postwork to "finish" it. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. I have an image in my gallery called "Cheesecake in Red and Blonde" (click the link to see it if you'd like) The *only* think in that image that came out of poser was the human figure and even that had to be heavily postworked at the joints and neck to make it look "human" the background, her clothing, her hair, even her lips and fingernails are completely painted in Photoshop....someone explain to me how that's not "unique" or "original" Some people paint a real live human being stick them up on a pedestal and call that art...who are we to say it's not?

Secondly, whilst a painter does not always mix his own paints, he does in fact turn liquid in a palette, into a vision. He doesn't simply take pre-existing painted figures, add a few colours and props, and call it a day. I was talking to a fellow Poser-maniac the other night about this topic, and we sorta agreed that a lot of Poser work, as well done as it is, is closer to paint-by-number than traditional oil painting. You can get some really pretty results with PBN, but you really have to work at it. Most people, tho, fill in the areas and leave it at that.

Art is imagination,if you have no imagination you can't see art. my two cent. skee

I do have to say that my appreciation level for art is different than most folks. Why? Cuz I'm an artist. I appreciate the work that others do which shows skill beyond what I have. Be it oils, graphite, or keyboard, if they did something I could not, then they have my appreciation. At the same time, I do not look down on those who's skill is equal or somewhat behind where I am at the moment for I was once there. But all this aside, I wonder how many Poserites do actually use traditional media?

Just going to put this note out for comment ... ILM .. You may have heard of them, they did the little idie flicks like Star Wars etc ... Having spoken to and sat in on a lecture/discussion by the guy that was in chage of all the creature creations he didn't think that one person should create everything . Each person had a specialty and did what they were good at. Some textured, some boned, some modeled, some designed and some rendered. I just want to smack these peopel that are purists and say that every pixel and polygon of every model has to be done by themselves. It is nice to know the different areas so you can anticipate problems etc but very rarely do people do it all in the professional industry. Later

<<>> Or do it for that matter. Mark J. Taylor

It isn't art per say in comparison to hand drawn stuff. I never fool myself into thinking my stuff even compares to real hand drawn work. To use an analogy, my work is like making prefab track homes compared to a hand artists making a mansion. 3D is faster, gets a higher quality pic of the time investment and gets readers into art and story faster, that's all. But there is art to posing, setup etc. There is obviously a difference between artists here. But I don't consider this to be on the same par as comic book artist.

Elephants can brush paint onto paper. Some of those painted pieces of paper sell for thousands. Art critics enthuse about some of the items they produce. Is it art because a critic says it's art? Is it art because the elephant had to learn to create an image using paint and brush, gradually making more complex images and developing a distinctive and recognisable style? Or is it art because, for some people, it has an emotional impact?

If those pictures /are/ art, and if those elephants had to learn to use a mouse and pose dials instead, would that mean the images weren't art any more?

As to my own opinion- if a picture, or a play, or a film, or a book, or a piece of music 'speaks' to me, so that I forget what media was used to create it, forget that I'm looking, or listening, or reading, and feel as if I'm actually there, then that's art.

I think the elephant useing a mouse for art could be cruel and unusual punishment for the mouse. I also think it would definitely have emotional and maybe phyical impact on the mouse. Who is the artist? the elephant making broad strokes, or the mouse with its wiggling, scratching, squeeking, adding so much more to the character of the line. I've seen art shows that were crap. I mean real crap. I mean actual feces, and the museum directors and critics etc called it art. The show spoke to me, can you guess what it said?Are these the people you want to judge your work, and set your standards?

The difference is not in the tools, but in the idea, the choice, the selection, the orchestration, the composition, whatever you wanna call it when you bring a pic from your head into the world for the rest of us to see. The tools are not important - except when those who feel their prestige or income threatened have to look for a reason to tell the admirers and customers not to be fooled by second-rate products ;o) That's not an art discussion, that's business competition. You'll get nowhere by trying to convince your competition that your product is superior to his - the winner is the one who wins over the consumers. If Star Wars is anything to go by, we can rest easy LOL

" If you happen to be one of the fretful minority who can do creative work, never force an idea; you'll abort it if you do. Be patient and you'll give birth to it when the time is ripe. Learn to wait." Robert A. Heinlein

I keep reading, "Posing, is an art" Well yes it is. However when you model your own character polygon by polygon, texture it yourself, create your own environment, customise it ect ect, you still pose your own character. However the clear difference is that when using poser, you jump right to the posing and customising stage. Which is fine. However it does take alot of the creativity out of things, and does make many many poser artworks, look exactly the same. It's the same as getting a sketch of Mickey Mouse, rubbing the ears out and drawing pointy ones in. "Oooh look, My new character design, its a cat".... No, no its not. It's Micky Mouse with modified ears. And if you think this sounds retarded, check out most poser galleries. This type of examples can be seen everywhere. Another thing to ponder. If there are so many opinions here of "art is art, who cares how its made, I do it because it means everything to me, and its deep and meaningfull" Then why when this topic comes up, are there always a flock of Poser people running in and justifying their means? If its all about the art, and your relation with it. Who cares what other people outside the poser community think. Right? Mark J. Taylor

hmm.. if a 400-lb block of chocolate, a bloody sheet, and actual crap can be considered art, I don't know what the problem is. Every package gets it's cliche, the NVIAT, the Brycean Mirror Ball in the Lake, the Mojoworld 3-6 moon break, The Terragen beach..;)It's what you do with what you have that counts. Being able to see something in your mind's eye, then translating it into a finished render, that's the important thing. I've done traditional media while in school, and while the teachers were kind, I think we both knew I wasn't the next Maxfield Parrish..;) One of the ultimate accolades would be 'this is Poser?' practice helps, but a good imagination doesn't hurt.

ok to be fair to other proggies. One I do work in traditional mediums. Two I have had maya siting on my desk for ages. {why because my poor computer would have a fit if I took more of her hard drive} I started browing about the maya things and such guess what other then it is another name another system it is the same. diffrent specs. diffrent proggy but you are making a picture with something digital. a model. {side note: those that actually build their own models trust me I have a HUGE amount of respect for you. I can model wood or clay because I can physically feel it digitally I have to rely on my eyes and that is not always a good thing lol} I keep hearing the arguement of this or that proggy, but it comes down to that fact that while they may get different results {such as lighting and everything} they are still a 3D proggy and I dont see how one proggy user can say they are superiour for using one proggy over the other. SPECIALLy since most of us use multiple proggies in the first place! On my system I have psp, ps, and ulead trust me I can not say one is far better then the other each of them have GREAT things the other doesnt. I have poser as my 3D[had milk shape and hated it} As an artist ...I can not see where one is better then the other as it is the USER that makes the difference. THAT IS THE POINT. you can get crap from maya you can get crap from lightwave you can get crap from 3DS you can get crap from anything it is the user that makes or breaks the program! why is this so hard for some to see?? If you use the arguement that ohh it is still vicky with modifications...well then I suppose linda evangalist is niome camble with a few modifications. I suppose that skin color and hieght and build are just modifications on every human being. {god that just leads to a really deep conversation there doesnt it?} HUMANS are VARIATIONS. there for "vicky" is a base and each modification is a vairant just like genetics! there for you are still creating something unique. there for.........art.

"A motion to adjourn is always in order" RAH

Some people buy clothes to wear... Some people buy the cloth and sew the clothes to wear... Some people buy the thread to weave the cloth to sew the clothes to wear. Some people buy the wool and spin the thread to weave the cloth to sew the clothes to wear. Some people shave the sheep to get the wool to spin the thread to weave the cloth to sew the clothes to wear. Some people raise the sheep to shave the sheep to get the wool to... Oh well, you get the idea.