Hi people, Can Someone please explain to me why Agiel is the moderator for Vue? He seems to be a Poser artist who renders his work with the Vue render engine ( I know this debacle has raged regulary over the years ), but he misses the point of Vue entirely. Vue is predominatly a landscape generator!! Just look at the galleries! I have no problem with his work as such, but wonder whether he is the right person for the job! We want to see landscapes not interior scenes. As moderator I would expect him to provide a render in keeping with the general mood of the majority of postings. As moderator I would expect him to follow the excellent work of Gebe who I sorely miss. He was a privaliged beta tester as such & as moderator should answer all enquires as best he can with the knowledge he has aquired. I don't like to be ignored by someone who should to my mind be providing solid answers to my enquires! Today I requested he test render an outside scene with HDRI as opposed to the women pathectically trapped in the black box he posted as test renders for Vue 5. Nothing!! He replies to someone a couple of lines down about render times & ignores my request for an outside scene, which is what we all really want to see isn't it!! Then he posts a picture of a 3DS model of a bubblegum machine we have probably all downloaded over the years. Not particulary relevant. A total lack of imagination or a man who hasn't the time to contribute properly. Should he keep his job? I get the impression this is voluntarily work as such & thank him for his efforts but is their someone else out there who wants it? I myself am a full-time parent & can't spare the time, but if someone else out there is willing to take up the gauntlet then they have my full support! I am guilty of obscure Vue renders that don't fit the pattern of things, but they are landscapes of sorts & entirely created in Vue. I also defected over to Carrara for global illumination, but am willing to come back now Vue supports it. I can't afford to buy more software until my wife is fully satisfied of it's merits, hence the request! I am happy to hear your answer Agiel! I am also suspecting this message will be deleted as flaming. You do seem to have a habit of shutting down quite innocent threads somtimes. I have been a member here for a good few years & seen many good people come & go. Please can we have some debate on this or I shall damn this community forever! Can we all stop being so polite & really have something realistic to contribute as in harsh words if applicable. Rokol. Rokol.

You may well have been a member here for a good few years but you were obviously not paying attention - Gebe is a woman.

I know Gebe is a women. I have seen the face on a name gallery. My message is clear & you obviously have not read my post properly. Please read it again, I will speak my mind as in any supposed democracy! Rokol.

I would have prefered you contact me in private if you have a problem with instead of displaying it all in the open like this, but here it goes : 1- Vue is certainly good at generating landscapes, but it is also good at a lot of other things, such as importing Poser characters or creating good lighting, which is why I am using it. If I wanted a landscape generator only, I would use Terragen or Mojoworld. If you want to talk about landscapes only, maybe YOU should. 2- Guitta (gebe) was also using a lot of poser character in her scenes, so I really don't see the point of your comment here. 3- I did not see your request for an HDRI rendering of a landscape. In case you are not aware of it, I also have a real life besides the Vue Forum (you know, like a job and kids). I do my best to be present as often as possible, which means that there may be some delay between the question you ask and my answer. 4- The 'pathetically trapped women' like you said where an answer to another request just like yours. If you had been a little more patient, you would have got your answer just as well. And if I didn't have to waste my time answering this kind of open attack, maybe Iwould be working on making an answer. 5- This message will not be deleted for the record, although I may remind you to read the term Of Services of this site, especially the section about 'expected conduct of members'. 6- I am deleting messages when they are openly insulting or aggressive, with no other purpose than creating controversy. I will leave this one open to not give you an excuse to accuse me of more censorship. Just so everyone knows, I welcome debate. I will be the first to discuss issues with Vue. But I will not accept insults, provocations and turns this forum into a warzone for the sake of debate. Sorry to break the news to you... debate is not an excuse to behave like cavemen.

I freely admit to a misunderstanding and duly apologise.

Oh... I forgot to answer your first question. Why am I a moderator ? Simply because I asked Gebe if she needed some help with the forum and she said 'yes'. Any other question ?

Rokol. I have had no problems with moderation on this forum. Your comment on your requested test render is, I believe, off base. It is not the responsibility of the moderator to provide test renders. My interpretation of the moderator function is to moderate threads that are going "out of bounds" and handle some of the mundane administrative tasks of the forum. I appreciate the contributions made by Agiel and all moderators in this role. As far as the applicability of Vue in non-landscape art, I consider Vue a lot more than simply a landscape generator. It seems that Vue as a renderer - has improved substantially in Vue 5. I welcome discussion of all aspects of Vue. My only wish for this forum is that it had the level of traffic as the Poser forum . . . Maybe some day if Vue keeps getting better . . .

arguing with agiel is completely one sided. The same with gebe. I've argued with both and they refuse to respect people's opinions but instead delete their post or call them a spammers or a trolls but then delete my posts for name calling. I've been picked on by agiel since he or she became moderator. All I ask is honest respect of a perspective instead of judging everything that is argued against the vue forum clique as something that is negative. Freedom of expression is what I want and its what art is all about so why are these forums so controlled? We are artists. Let us express openly without worry. How could someone judge with complete accuracy another person's motive for making a post without even meeting eye to eye? It assumes a lot. Vue on.

Thanks Agiel for replying, I was feeling bitter I guess, I want Vue 5 & I don't have the readies as such. I am still puzzled as to why you chose the scene you did. Can you please just give us an outdoor scene, say Vicky under a tree or something. I do feel that you are over harsh with some threads at times, perhaps we all have different values at the end of the day.I also know how differcult it is to juggle work, family & 3d commitments. I have never felt that I needed to attack someone on this forum before. But you had repied to a later post & I assumed you had disregarded my post as such. OK, I understand you also have commitments with family, but do you really have the time for this job? You goto be here all the time to answer people like me. I am not a caveman yet, the hair is sprouting from my ears but we have ways to repell it in this modern age, clippers anyone! Rokol.

quote arguing with agiel is completely one sided. The same with gebe. I've argued with both /quote And doesn't this coincidence give you something to think about? quote they refuse to respect people's opinions /quote Personal attacks are not opinions and have nothing to do with Vue. Agiel has been even too good and patient, and the proof of this is that you and other people are still able to write on this forum in spite of the evident flaming nature of your posts. I am moderator of several mailing lists (meaning: a lot of work and zero money for it), and I can grant you that I would have been much less patient than Agiel: one flaming message would have caused you a warning, a second one would have seen you say goodbye to the list for 3 months, and a third one would have meant permanent banning. So be thankful that the moderator of this forum is a person as patient as Agiel (to whom goes my solidariety).

Rokol - no hard feelings. I chose that close up portrait of Vicky because Orio had expressed the wish to see different lighting options with contrasts on poser figures. The second Image I made (the bubblegum machine) was just made for fun to see if Vue 5 could generate decent HDRI reflections (which it did). I will work on a landscape as soon as I can (I already am actually :) ) Now... bonnyclump. I will say it again - I am not picking on you. I am deleting repeatedly negative comments against Vue and e-on software. You made your point - we all know what you think of e-on's marketing strategy, mover's stability, and Vue 5's features. It is getting to the point where your negative comments are driving people away from this forum. If you decide to have normal conversations about Vue again, I will leave your posts alone. If you persist in bashing e-on or Vue for the same old reasons again, and again, I will keep deleting your comments. It is as simple as that. Please read the Forum FAQ if you want to see our views about democracy, free speech and this forum. I will not intervene in whatever you have to say unless it is disruptive to the forum. The rest is up to you...

God, can't keep up with the posts. Orio, this was not flaming as such, just a critique. I felt that my request was not answered properly & was slightly narked by it. I hate trolls! Rokol

I own Poser, but I have never made a render in Poser. I use it to set up animations. I own Vue but I have never made a landscape. I use it to render my Poser animations. I own ZBrush, but I have never used it to model. I use it as a 3D texture tool. I own Cubase but I have never made music with it. I use it to edit sound effects and speech for animations. I am currently converting a gaming engine to be a crowd generator for Poser. Do not presume that because a program was made for a specific purpose it will be used for that purpose. An artist will use the tools that suite his needs. So your comments about Agiel not posting renders of landscapes is way off base. I do consider myself a valid Vue user, and have used the lighting, texturing and rendering tools to their full capability, and just because I have never needed a landscape does not invalidate myself as a Vue user.

Look forward to the landscape Agiel! Have my own views about democracy, perhaps they differ from from democracy to democracy!! Rokol.

Helgard, all I was saying was that the vast majority create scenic renders. Rokol.

Why is Agiel moderator? I think because he enjoys the program and likes to assist others who enjoy it as well. I have had my issues with Agiel but he is man enough to respond in a mature manner and being that he gets absolutely no money for this job I respect that. Now the Members of the super secret society called A.S.S that Wabe and Djeser have I think it should be banned for sure, but not Agiel the moderator here. It is hard enough to get good help when you pay them let alone good help for free. BTW I don't have to proven anything to my wife to be able to buy things my friend perhaps you should look there first before rashly striking out against the moderator of this forum. MY VOTE: Agiel is doing a bang up job and he stays. Thanks for reading. Davy Z.

Not sure why I'm wading in here but I guess it's because each day it seems I read more and more about how there is less and less permitted here on this site. I'm referencing the above where, it seems to be pointed out, that not only can you not make personal attacks (which I agree with) but you, apparently, can't make disparaging remarks about software manufacturers (particularly those who have a close affiliation with this site's finances). So, I took another look at the TOS. For those who haven't read it lately, like me, all you really need to understand, and it's easy if you have at least half a brain (more, of course, is just surplus), this site can actually delete anything they don't like for whatever reason they wish. The final paragraph pretty much sums it up. It reminds me of my government job where they go to great pains to describe my job functions and then add the final line that says, "and any other duties as assigned". What's the point? So, why all the extensive definitions in the TOS? Why not just simplify it and say, "If R'City doesn't like what you posted, be it written or pictorial, we'll delete it and you have no recourse"? I mean, that's what happens anyway.

Chuck I don't have anything against taking about problems with e-on or Vue. Look at the forum recently, there are plenty of talks about delays in shipping and what not. What I will not accept it just plain accusations or comments without arguments and facts. To be more explicit : - "Vue sucks." / "e-on software is useless" will get your posts deleted. - "Vue still has problems with certain type of meshes" / "e-on software knows about this bug for a long time and hasn't come with a solution yet" will not get deleted. It is all in the manner you present your case.

I personally am happy that Agiel posted renders of Vicky- as it was exactly what I wanted to see. I've used Vue since version 3, and have been a Renderosity member since the earliest days. I think the MAJOR turning point for VUE was when people like me started posting images of Posette done in Vue. It caused a LOT of people to start asking- Hey- what is that software you are using? (This was before the Vue forum ever existed- but there WAS a Bryce Forum). The Brycer's then were an extremely powerful "lobby" and got me BANNED from here because I was "off topic" and you could only talk about Poser, BRYCE and ANYTHING ELSE, but NOT VUE!!! But the posting of the Posette images eventually got a Vue Forum established. And I think E-on has seen that Poser Content is a very IMPORTANT link for many Vue users.

Thanks for the explanation. Actually, I skip over comments like, "Vue (or fill in the name) sucks!" and move along. I don't pay them much attention. My concern was that posts were deleted that were more like this: (I'm making this up for illustrative purposes) "Well, once again, Vue crashed. I've emailed E-on 3 times but no answer! I even offered to send in my file. What's a guy to do?! I'd advise people to think twice before buying till things are more stable."

Just my two cents. Rokol, looking at your original message, and not having any feelings one way or another, I'd say that you made a definite personal attack on agiel. That's how it comes across to an objective reader, I think. Plus, it certainly reads that the reason you question his ability to be moderator is that he used some Poser figures in his renderings, and #2 - he didn't immediately comply with your request that he make you a special test render you wanted. Geez Louise! If we are going to require that the forum moderator do special work for us, and criticize them for not doing this, I believe we don't understand the term "moderator." We certainly won't find many volunteers if we require our moderators to do work for us. Why not require them to make our models for us while they're at it.

I may be wrong, but any REPEATED attacks of the software maker or product without justifying reasons should be deleted. If they make a valid point, then that should be OK; unless it is repeated over and over by the same poster who appears to have an axe to grind.

I don't mind reading negative posts about e-on, so far as it is a potentially valid complaint. Saying that "e-on stinks" is not a valid point if left at that.

I have gotten to the point of trying to ignore whole threads here if they contain posts from a couple of posters because I know (or at least I strongly suspect) that I already know what that poster(s) is going to say. The few times I have checked, I've been right with the exception of once.

Maybe I just don't understand why someone wants to waste my time by saying the same thing over and over. Yes, I guess I get annoyed a little at the constant praise by other posters as well.

As far as Agiel as moderator, he seems to be doing a good job to me. One can't expect him to pander to every user or poster here. There isn't enough time in the day. Besides, as far as I know, e-on doesn't pay him to be a customer service/technical advisor. A moderator's job is to moderate. He isn't necessarily a tutor. It's great when the mod is an expert; but it shouldn't be an absolute requirement. (Not making any judgement about Agiel's abilities with Vue!)

Anyway, that's my .02. (I know, it isn't even worth that!)

I applaud Agiel for the wonderful job he has performed as moderator here. I would have run screaming long ago if I were in that position. I have always found him to be very kind and any questions or concerns I have had have been answered with all haste. As far as what is posted, if it is rendered in Vue, to me it is a Vue image. I do not have a purist attitude. To me, quality means the most. To conclude, I would like to add that I understand the need for deleting some aggressive and disrepectful comments that are made in the forum. I feel they have every right to delete those type of comments, although the person making the statements may not have all the facts, they should not resort to measures such as that. Thanks for taking the time to listen to me! Shari (President of A.S.S.)

Secondly, I for one, am tired of the generalized spates of criticism of e-on software corp and Vue. I know that social rant episodes are a thing that comes and goes in waves on these forums. It appears to happen in all of them - some kind of social contagion process or something a sociologist would love. But, I don't believe that's the basic purpose of the forums. I get tired of the rants, and I'm afraid of what they do to people who are newbies. It seems to me that this forum should be primarily a place where people can share knowledge and tips on how to use the software - given the limitations that are inevitable for every piece of software in existence, ask for help and get it from other members, and inspire other people with ideas for using the software. I am a software and systems developer and have been since I first bought Apple II - Serial #8. There is no perfect piece of software, and this occurs for very good reasons. There probably never will be, and if anyone wants to ask why, I'd be glad to explain in plain language on another thread. Vue and the other E-On Software products have limitations, just like every othr program. One of the major purposes of these forums is to help people discover how to work around and within these limitations. There is another serious consequence to the rants. When we indulge in wide-ranging tirades about Vue or E-On Software, we discourage newbies and turn them away. People of good intentions and relatively little knowledge and experience. Their entire impressions and knowledge of Vue and E-On Software are sometimes formed by what they learn here - on a bad set of days. Newbies or people potentially interested in Vue, by definition, don't have any basis to judge. So, on a bad day, new people visiting here learn here that Vue is "a total piece of crap" - because that's exactly what's said here during those times. Is this what we want to tell these people? So, I'm for free speech, but I'm also all for having a moderator who is charged with exercising judgement and keeping this forum from aimless and pointless rant sessions. If this requires deleting some messages, especially those that denigrate other people or are generic bitches about Vue, then I for one am willing to say that I want the moderator to be responsible for doing this. And I'm not going to consider it a violation of "free speech." I'm willing to say that I do want an active moderator for this forum, and I want this person to make judgements about the best way to keep the forum productive for the greatest number of its members. It is in the nature of human judgement that agiel or any other person charged with the responsibilities of being moderator will sometimes make mistakes about which messages he deletes in the interest of the basic purposes of the forum. I suppose that he can post a message of his own that says something like "For the record, littleshrub has voiced 10 messages over the last five days pointing errors in the Vue program and stating that E-On Software is a crappy outfit concerned only with money-grubbing or whatever. Any person, including E-On Software, wishing to converse with littleshrub about these posts that were deleted before they could be read by all should send littleshrub an IM or e-mail and inquire further." Something to that effect. That would register the comments, but take whatever the moderator judges to be a tirade out of the forum. Also, if a lot of people contacted "littleshrub" and thought that his comments had merit and should have been posted in the forum, they then could complain to the moderator, and the moderator probably would have enough sense to bow to the majority viewpoint. But people, ranting is not the thing to do in these forums! Please, stop it! If you've got a technical complaint, post it as such. Just leave the opinion about the general worth of the software or the development house behind. And, I apologize in advance to the thousands of people I've just now offended. No offense was meant. I just am personally sick to death of the bitching!

Alright. Time for me to go to bed. Since I cannot keep an eye on this discussion while I am asleep, I will lock it for the night and reopen it tomorrow morning. I don't want to deprive anybody from an occasion to answer. I just don't want this discussion to run in the wrong direction without anybody watching. By the way.... thanks so far for making an effort at keeping things in a civilized fashion. I know how hard it can be sometimes.