I was looking at a site today which sells most of its 3D content at over $100 a time. But they have some freebies, some of them potentially useful in a Poser scene. Alas, when I downloaded one, a model of a specific aircraft, there were all sorts of things wrong; not just simplifications. The wings were too short, compared to the overall length. The wingtips were squared off when they should have been round. The material zones didn't match some of the major differences in the real-life materials. The undercarriage legs were set at the wrong angle. And it's not hard to find a few pictures that show all this. In the Poser world, $100 or $200 is what we expect to pay for a complete suite of software. There are some dodgy paid-for models out there, but still costing only tens of dollars (I'm thinking of a few which have very poor UV mapping, for instance). And people who put out a freebie to attract customers don't usually put out something which makes them seem incompetent. Obviously, I'm not used to the hard-nosed world of professional CGI.

Maybe the "flaws" were intentional, in order to avoid intellectual property issues?

That is something that is only now appearing on the Poser radar. Rosity recently removed a lot of car models from the MP for trademark violations. (Some of them had been there for years.) And I notice that DAZ has filed the serial numbers off their car models in the names and descriptions, but in the readmes, it still lists trademarked name/model!

And if you call something X and it doesn't look like X? I've had to dust around the plastic kits before now. There's some basic details which were common to just about every RAF fighter between 1925 and 1935 -- round wingtips is only one of them.

I'm not sure what the rules are, actually. There seems to be a lot of confusion, especially with things like military vehicles. Near as I can tell, some designs are okay, because they're government property and owned by the people, while some designs are still owned by the corporations contracted to make them.

I'm a little uneasy about a DAZ car model I bought recently. I suppose not claiming it was Model X means they're off the hook, but what about us users? There's a recognizable logo right on the front. For now, I'm using it strictly for tight shots, where you can't see much of the outside of the car.

The price of Poser objects also has a lot to do with supply and demand.

In most cases, those who use higher end 3D software are more apt to model their own content. When they do have a need for a specific model, they may purchase one to save development time and costs.

However, a model is a model is a model, and it takes the same amount of time to model it, regardless of whether it is for Poser or for another 3D program. Ten people might pay $100 for a model for a high end program; whereas in the Poser world, 100 might pay $10 for a Poser model. Either way, the time spent for creating the model is covered.

Message edited on: 07/24/2005 08:38

'However, a model is a model is a model, and it takes the same amount of time to model it, regardless of whether it is for Poser or for another 3D program' Exactly, deecey. This is an important point because in theory, any decent poser modeller could sell the same models in 3ds or lw format at Turbo Squid or wherever for ten times the price. Probably not many copies. It's a small market, but it could be done. What you have to remember is that not only is poser content unbelievably cheap, it also takes a damned sight longer to make than content for many other formats. After you've modelled your product, you still have to set it up for poser, and include MATs, etc. In general, I spend 20% of the project time on modelling, the other 80% on getting it poser-ready. Yes, poser content is remarkably cheap. Yes, the quality is continually getting better. And yes, some people do appreciate it, and mention it from time to time. But a lot of people still don't realise how much bang they really get for their buck. mac

'In most cases, those who use higher end 3D software are more apt to model their own content' Deecey, I have to partially disagree with that for two reasons. One. The possession of high-end software doesn't necessarily mean you have the talent to use it. Nor does it instantly make you a great modeller. Two. A lot of high-end software is used by companies who don't have the time to mess around building things. A learge percentage of them may not even use the software for modelling at all. In advertising (a world I know well), the cost is passed on to the client, so it's easier to just buy. What the client pays in advertising is money he would have paid in taxes. Better to spend it than be taxed on it. So in the end, it's you and me who pay for all the TV commercials which bombard us on a daily basis. Um.... sorry. Went off on a bit of a rant there. Anyway, what I'm saying is that max or lightwave users are probably more likely to build their own models, but there ar still plenty of 'em who'll cough up the dough. mac

Someone posted a link awhile back to a site that was selling a skeleton for thousands of dollars. Most things on that site were in the triple digits in price too. I couldn't imagine paying that mount of money one thing for my hobby... unless it was a computer to do my hobby on.

"Someone posted a link awhile back to a site that was selling a skeleton for thousands of dollars. Most things on that site were in the triple digits in price too. I couldn't imagine paying that mount of money one thing for my hobby... unless it was a computer to do my hobby on. " Those models do sell though, and do have a place.. consider the costs of professional CGI.. a company might be paying a animation house $30-$50,000 for a half hour complete animation. And if that animation house can save 3 weeks of modeling and rigging time by buying a premade skeleton, they end up actually making more money. We are VERY spoiled by low cost poser content. That's why many poser content creators "disapear" after some time, because they can't afford to live based on what they make on selling poser content, and can make much more working in the profession cgi world. Look at products like Curio's Majestic Dragon.. when was the last time you heard from Curio, or even heard anyone talking about his dragon? (Which is excellent!) How many people complained about the cost of Apollo Maximus? Daz can sell things cheap because they use Razor/Razor blade selling tactics, and also sell their Platinum club memberships, which reduce the cost to end users, but increase cash flow from th membership sales. If it weren't for my good sales numbers at Daz, I wouldn't still be doing poser content. My sales at Rendo and Poser pros don't even total a 10th of my seals at Daz each month. Much as people may hate Daz for various reasons, they are really keeping many poser content creators "in the game" so to speak. Some move on to their own stores, (like Sixus)and some move into other large stores and make a big splash (like Lady Little Fox and Anton), but for little guys like myself, I need a selling venue that makes up in low content profits with higher sales numbers.

If I'm remembering right, those particular 3D models were intended for applications in medicine. Which probably means you can't afford to get details wrong.

To answer your question, yes, you have been spoiled by Poser pricing. The Poser audience expects everything to be free and balks at items priced over $20. (Selling a $20 model at places like TurboSquid will get you laughed off: most of their models are in the $80 to $100 price range... and some are even more.) Even DAZ has figured out the game: they once sold V3 and M3 for between $39 and $59... now, they're free. DAZ has even lowered their prices with their "$1.99 Platinum Club". Now, that may increase sales for them, but how do other merchants compete with a price of $1.99? Do they lower their prices also? Do they create new items and sell them at the new, lower pricing... which in, turn, causes other merchants to try to under-cut them? How long will it be before everyone sells their items at the Renderosity-minimum of $5.00 just so they have the lowest price? And what happens to the market when extremely good, photo-real texture sets sell for $15.00? To me, that's dirt cheap. But, that's three times the price of the usual $5.00 items... and how many users will take the attitude of "For $15.00, I can buy 3 of the $5.00 sets."? Another issue is that Poser is still considered a "hobbyist" program. Poser itself is $250.00 (actually, Poser 6 is $249.99 on e-frontier's site). And when people pay so little for the program, they expect add-ons to be just as inexpensive. In turn, merchants have to expect that "hobbyists" are the market for their items... and the hobbyists may not have a large budget to spend on items. Professional Lightwave (and Studio Max) users who pay $2,500 for their software expect to pay $100 for a good model... and usually have the budget (or can bill clients) to get the models. --John

No doubt, we are spoilt. Just spend a little while trying to model - it slow going for me, not just because I've other interests, it realy is hard work - and lets not mention UV mapping! Fortunately, e-frontier do seem to have their heads screwed on regarding their market and how to grow it and profit from it. Being Japanese and with the growing integration of Shade, the Asian market looks set to grow. With their fair pricing for Europe (which is a breath of fresh air in this industry), they should be growing their markets here as well. The more Poser users there are, the larger the market for products and, we can hope, the greater the sales for those creating them. This is actually helped by Content Paradise, what seemed like such a bad idea in Poser 5 has been rather nicely executed this time around, with the CP newletter drawing peoples attention to new products, such as Apollo Maximus and even the Wardrobe Wizard, which isn't even available through CP. Lets not forget DAZ either, Studio may come in for a lot of stick, not always justly, but it is bringing new shoppers to the market. If this trend continues, the home 3d content market could grow very nicely.

I think most poser stuff is absurdly cheap. ".... not only is poser content unbelievably cheap, it also takes a damned sight longer to make than content for many other formats. After you've modelled your product, you still have to set it up for poser, and include MATs, etc. In general, I spend 20% of the project time on modelling, the other 80% on getting it poser-ready." Ain't THAT the truth!! I have a veritable pantload of pretty good models which might never see the marketplace because I run out of steam when it comes down to getting them poser-ready. I find it SUCH a drag. I'll be the first to admit that: a)I'm fundamentally lazy, and b)I'm a great starter but not a good finisher. But after a model is made and mapped there's almost no fun in all the methodical, repetitive, anal, nitpicky tasks involved in turning it into a poser product. Maybe I need to team up with a really methodical, anal, nitpicky person who hates modelling? LOL Ob

A product is worth what people pay for it.

Some places selling 3D content are making a lot custom for customers using it in 3D simulations for industrial purposes and so forth. I'm new at 3D modeling, but I think it's one thing to make a prop with rendering in mind, but it takes another level of detail to make something for a simulation. I'm assuming that's part of the price difference. The other part of the price difference is probably salespeople actively going out and marketing to industries, and maybe some sort of support services. Businesses are willing to pay money to have a person to talk to.

When you consider clothes and morphs, many casual Poser users spend hundreds of dollars on Victoria and Michael. They are willing to spend that kind of money because the human models are vital to what they create in Poser. If something like an airplane or a car was more central to one's business, then I assume that one would be willing to pay more for a more detailed model of an airplane or car.

And just because I can make my own models doesn't mean that I won't buy them. It takes time to make a good model. There aren't a lot of props and figures for sale for Poser that are more expensive than an hour of my time. I'm going to stick mainly to modeling things that I want but can't find anywhere else.

Message edited on: 07/24/2005 15:16

"Even DAZ has figured out the game: they once sold V3 and M3 for between $39 and $59... now, they're free."

Please don't get me started again. M3 & V3 aren't free at all.... only the base figures are free and without the needed add-ons their pretty much worthless. All that DAZ do is a clever marketing trick. Give the base figures away for free and increase the price of the needed add-ons (morhps & textures) and still don't loose out. They've figured out one game indeed, how to get more poeple buying their stuff.

I don't think Poser stuff is cheap at all. Some of it is like the PoserWorld deal and RDNA Real deals. The rest still is very pricy. Just start calculating what a basic wardrobe for a figure will cost you, including needed hair, textures and poses and the whole Poser content is cheap theory is blown out of the sky.

Poser content is cheap per item, unfortunally one item doesn't get you anywhere. A complete poser scene is very expensive.... when bought at the right place.

Subscription sites like PoserWorld they've spoiled us with great and affordable pricing. Compared to those sites all of the others just seem to rip us off, even the DAZ Platinum subcription is a complete rip off compared to some of the other great subscriptions around.

Have we been spoiled? I don't think so, we're still being charged way to much by most merchants! Message edited on: 07/24/2005 15:19

"A complete poser scene is very expensive...." - not all are.. check out Sixus1's scenes.. ;)

"Give the base figures away for free and increase the price of the needed add-ons (morhps & textures) and still don't loose out." Actually the price of the morph packs is still the same - and with the new bundle of head and body morphs, is 25% less than I originally paid when the base figure was pay-for.

""A complete poser scene is very expensive...." - not all are.. check out Sixus1's scenes.. ;) " with a complete scene I mean all the stuff I need for a render. One or fully dressed figures with hair, background, landscape stuff and a number of props. That can become quite expensive, espially when larger scenes are involved. By the way, I do consider Sixus1 as a great merchant with great prices and their scenes proof it!

The rest still is very pricy. That's something you never, ever hear a modeller say ;) We are so underpaid it's ridiculous. we're still being charged way to much by most merchants Heh heh heh, looks at prices. Um, nah, don't think so. I sell entire outfits for under $20. You realise an entire outfit can take a month to make? If I sell say 100 of these outfits that's $200, minus the (at least) 50% to the store selling it, that's $100. So, if an outfit took say 5 days x 8 hours = 40 hours / $100 = 0.40. Working for 40 cents an hour is NOT overcharging in my book ;P You can make art with just the basics (pencil and paper - V3-M3 and Poser) or you can buy other items to enhance your art in specific ways. The basics are never useless, it's just some people express themselves better with added items (paint, textured papers, etc). M3 & V3 aren't free at all.... only the base figures are free and without the needed add-ons their pretty much worthless This is so not true in any way you look at it. Learn how to use magnets or a modelling program and make some morphs yourself. That's the only reason you find them 'worthless'. It takes very little time to learn how to use Poser magnets, which are included with Poser, so therefore no outside purchase.

aeilkema wrote: "Please don't get me started again. M3 & V3 aren't free at all.... only the base figures are free and without the needed add-ons their pretty much worthless." Once again....... you used to have to PAY for M3 and V3, and THEN pay for the add ons. Now you only pay for the add ons, which is much cheaper than paying for them both. Why do you consantly insist that getting them for free is a bad thing? Coldrake

DAZ suxxorz! They only gave me a $2 voucher 4 there contest! It should of bin $20! Thads so lamezorrz! (Apologies if I got my l33t speak wrong; I'm not fluent in it)

Xena your math is off but your example is sound: $20 product selling 100 copies is $2000. store 50% cut is $1000. So merchant makes a total of $1000. 40 hours of development time comes out to $25.00/hr. BUT most products of quality take a month to develop, texture, and test. So same product selling 100 copies is $2000, again 50% cut to store merchant makes $1000, but development time is 160 hours (4 weeks 40 hrs a week) and now merchant is only making $6.25/hr which is basically working at McDonalds. Add in quarterly taxes (in USA), and Merchants aren't making a lot of money unless they sell a lot of product. Support your favorite Broker/Merchant. If they have a store they run then buy direct it's usally a bit cheaper to purchase and the merchant makes 100% of the sale. Yeah we are spoiled by Poser pricing. As bandwidth pricing goes up and more people learn to put out quick products at cheap prices more and more Merchants are feeling the pain.

Yeah, I realised afterwards. I'd just gotten outta bed - that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it LOL

Don't forget you have to pay taxes on your sales. Taxes are around 30% I have heard some people have already been auditted so "PAY YOUR TAXES!!!" hehehe

PS: Poser content is higher quality than most 3d content globally with the movie industry being the exception.

They say you get what you pay for. In Poser's case you get more than you should for the price. WHich is why people groaning about prices is laughable.

The $10,000+ stuff isn't meant for us. They doo sell quite a bit to companies that can right it off. And each high sale equals hundres of low end sales.

Just remember, if something is 50% off you have to sell double to make the exact same amount of money.
So 10,000(50%) sales = same $$$ as 5000(0%). Except now you have exhausted a chunk of your consumer base.

Point being people would make more money if they didn't liquidate their inventory unless you are relying on impulse buying.

Message edited on: 07/24/2005 20:45

Saying that merchants are still charging way too much is ridiculous. The amount of effort required to create Poser ready items is much greater than for other 3d software, because of Poser's arse backwards way of doing things. All this for an average price of about $10.00 an item. They'd be cheap at twice the price.

Yeah, we may be spoiled...but then again I see it thus...if poser stuff was somewhere beyond the 50 dolar range I wouldnt buy it because I cant afford it. Most of the stuff for poser that sells for 70 bucks or more, or either I dont buy it or I wait for some christmas discount or whatever.I believe a lot of poser stuff costumers are on the same league as I am. My 10 cents

Ya know what? Know your market! Most hobbiests are not going to be willing to pay expensive prices for meshes that will NEVER make them any money. Period! If you want to make more money off hobbiests you will set your prices low enough that you make up in quantity the money you would make selling the mesh once at a price nobody else can afford. And a lot of hobbiests can get turned off and burned out by price gouging as well as market glut. And in my opinion, Merchants that blame their customers for their lack of income loose more business than they gain by selling at prices the customer base can't and won't support. It doesn't pay to byte the hands that feed you.

Well I certainly see customers who bit merchants who feed them content. It's a credit card, not a sword. Over the years I have seen a lot of merchants badgered. There are many stretegies that can work. Some of illusions of savings, some aren't. Some work, some don't.

It boils down to viability. I always tell merchants that if it doesn't pay the bills, it makes no difference how many people buy it.

My rule has been to base prices on say 200 sales.

Let's say you have a product that is $34.95

30% Discount brings it down to $24.46
and 50% store split and you are at $12.23

Based on 200 sales you make $2446.5
After state/Fed taxes you have $1712.56

Take out 7% for computer/business expenses like software, electricity/internet/etc

Now you have $1592.68 based on 200 sales.
That means a $34.95 is only generating $7.96 in profit

$7.96!!!!!!!!!!!!

Depressing isn't it. And that is a $34.95 product.

Message edited on: 07/25/2005 00:49

doesn't pay to cut off your arm and bleed all over the floor either. Customers love sales and cheap prices, mechants love a fat paycheck to keep lights on and coffee in the pot. Fine line. I don't see Mercedes lowering their prices any time soon, anybody want to buy me a Mercedes? Please? oh come on 1 Mercedes. I'll be your friend hahaha.

Attached Link: Eberspaecher Mercedes 500SEL Muffler Hanger

LOL.

Sorry the 2005 was a lot more. hehe

It doesn't pay to shoot yourself in the foot either.

You know, guys, when I started this thread off I was a bit grumpy over a high-price professional site having a freebie which was so blatantly wrong. If they're advertising the quality of their paid-for product, they'd failed. (I wasn't expecting incredible levels of detail.) And the Poser world does have some excellent freebies, both from Daz and from many other places. There are people out there whose work I know I can rely on, because I know the quality of their free product. And the same for people whose work I've picked up at Platinum Club prices. But I don't have a big budget for this hobby of mine. So I'm much more selective about the more expensive items. And if I ever turn out something I think I can sell, I will price it low. But don't be surprised if you see the same mesh, in another "professional" format, going for a lot more on Turbo Squid.

Heh heh, if I could convert my stuff to lwo or max format and flog it at the Squid for a couple hundred bucks a pop, I'd do it ;) I have no shame LOL

Which is entirely my point Antonia. I fail to see how merchants have been hurt by customers, and yet I constantly see customers who've been hurt by merchants trying to pass off poor quality for high prices. If a customer complains about a merchant, the only hurt the merchant feels is in his pride. The Customer feels the hurt in his wallet as well as his ability to trust merchants in the future with his cash. The only hurt a merchant can possibly feel is if complaints cause his sales to go down, which, if he/she were a good merchant, they would address the complaints and fix the issues and sales would return. Customers who don't get satisfaction for money spent are hurt by merchants. Merchants who loose customers are being hurt by their own bad practices, not by their customers complaints. Keep on blaming the customers and soon enough you'll find yourself without any. Hobbiests can always move on and find other hobby's you know.

"I don't see Mercedes lowering their prices any time soon, anybody want to buy me a Mercedes? Please? oh come on 1 Mercedes. I'll be your friend hahaha. " Not to blow your bubble, but Mercedes already has lowered the price considerably on a number of models. Not only Mercedes by the way. Also Mercedes (and a number of other car manufactures) have brought new models to the market for the low end of the market. Prices are shifting a lot these days and being lowered to get more customers. The economy is low, so for merchants/companies to sell, the prices are being lowered. Imo we need to see the same with Poser content!

My experience in other fields suggests that it is crazy to try to compete on price alone. The Wal-Marts of the world do it by screwing their suppliers. Mercedes have a range of products. They sell smaller cars which cost less. But they have a brand, and they have to maintain that reputation. There are brands out there in the world of Poser content creators. and not just at the level of Daz 3D. Stonemason is a brand; so is Sixus and Sams3D and Little_Dragon. It doesn't matter whether they want money or not; they've built a reputation for the products they make. That's what you, as an artist, can control. That's what makes a product worth buying; not the difference between $1.49, $1.99, $2.49, or $5

People who think poser content is expensive might want to consider a cheaper hobby, like collecting sticks and leaves. Those are cheap. hehehe. Just kidding.

Maybe I need to team up with a really methodical, anal, nitpicky person who hates modelling? LOL obm890.. if you ever find that person, PLEASE tell me... ;o) I've wanted something like that for years...

Aeilkema wrote: Even DAZ has figured out the game: they once sold V3 and M3 for between $39 and $59... now, they're free. I don't think Poser stuff is cheap at all. Some of it is like the PoserWorld deal and RDNA Real deals. The rest still is very pricy. Have we been spoiled? I don't think so, we're still being charged way to much by most merchants! " Perfect example of being spoiled. I think you really need to look at the developement time for products, and the finl sales prices charged, and what profits the artists actually make. I'll giv you teo practical examples of things I thought were pretty fdang cool, and flopped big time for me. the Sal Adventurer's set, (for Sal A. Manda, and Evo-Grrrl, for Netherworks Evo-Girl. Both products took 2-3 weeks to complete. Both poducts are fairly cheap, especially for what they offer the end user. And both products have sold a TOTAL of maybe 30 sets tops. Based on those numbers, I can;t justify any further developement for both characters, even though I had some things in mind.. why? Both products made me about $1-2 an hour. Read that again.. 1-2 DOLLARS AN HOUR! Fortunately, I have enough really good selling items to sustain a flop every now and then, and both of these were done because I wanted to be able to play with them in poser. So Aeilkema, if those were overpriced, and I ONLY made $2 an hour making them, how much less should I have charged for them? Should I make 50 cents an hour to meet your price preferences? The real botom line from this example, as previously stated by others, is support the artists you like.. if they can ek out a living at this, they will just stop making content. Think about the products we missed out on, because Anyon was gone for a year. Imagine your favortie poser artists, like Dark Whisper, Noggin, Neftis, Anton, Traveler, Lady Little Fox, ect. GONE POOF! Now think of all the characters, and content they all created.. and now imagine that it does NOT exist for poser! No Koshini and freinds.. NO Maximus, No Wacky World figures, No Elle, or neftoon Gal. None of Noggin's great animals. That's a pretty sad thought, come to think of it. Just support artists who's work you value. And next time you think poser content is overpriced, look at how much the artist actually makes on tht product, vs the man hous taken to create them.

There is always the option of creating things yourself if you think they cost too much.

"There is always the option of creating things yourself if you think they cost too much." I think everyone should create one complex poser item at least once, to really grasp the amount of work invloved.

to really grasp the amount of work invloved. And the cost involved -- modeling software, paint programs, Poser-specific utilities, the time spent learning how to do all of the things you need to know. Those costs add up as well. That people feel that a $10 or $15 item is too much to spend will quickly change their mind when they see how long it takes to create the same item themselves.

Noone should forget that if you are either a merchant, doing web graphics, any graphic design, paying taxes, etc.. you can right off on your purchases for tax deductions.

Oh, yeah, Anton, I learned that my first year! I had no idea that I could write off electrical useage, a portion of my house payments, my cable internet connection, a whole PILE of stuff. We ended up only actually shelling out about $100 for taxes this last year, and originally I owed about over 1,500. That's what's made some utility programs justifyable.. knowing that I could write them off, and if they didn't quite do what I wanted them to, it was more palatable. Actually that's something that's really lacking right now for current poser development.. updating the poser utilities that are available. Not only are some overpriced (cr2edit) and haven't been updated in a LONG time, but some don't support the current P6 feature set. I've abandoned P-wizard's packaging wizard because I spend more time fixing misdirected texture references (it doesn't like multiple runtimes)and adding textures that it just forgot to add, Quick Conform is nice for an easy item, but if you want additional groups NOT in the original figure, it chokes and dies a grisley death. Best utility I've been using has been EasyPose Underground by Ajax. Again, it hasn't been updated in a dog's age, but it pretty much has everything in it that probably should be added to it.

We ended up only actually shelling out about $100 for taxes this last year, and originally I owed about over 1,500. Right, but in order to save $1400 in taxes, you had to spend about three times that amount for writeoffs. It IS a bit like getting the software on sale, though. 8-)

Hey if you are going to buy it anyway, every bit helps.

Yes, I think that Poser items are a deal.

And I also think that Poser is an expensive hobby.

If you wish to do more than simply slap a texture on a default V3, pose, & hit "render" -- then you are going to have to spend some bucks beyond the base price of the software.

$15.00 for one clothing or hair package is a real deal.

$15.00 each for 200 clothing or hair packages gets a little pricey..........

We all have to decide what our priorities are, and then follow them.

If the choice for anyone lies between enjoying Poser on the one hand, and eating on the other hand -- then I'd highly recommend prioritizing your resoures towards the 'eating' thing.

But if you've got some spare cash (not to mention some free time) to indulge in a hobby -- then enjoy playing with Poser.

The Poser market -- just like most markets -- is self-regulating.

Poser content prices have found their own natural comfort range. It's the age-old economic balance between what the sellers need to make in order to stay in business and what the customers are willing to pay for the items.

If either side of the equation gets bent out of wack, then the entire structure can potentially collapse under the strain.

If merchants can't make enough to justify being in the game: then they'll quit.

If customers can't afford to pay for too-expensive products: then they'll stop buying.

It's that simple. So the system tends to regulate itself.

It's called capitalism. And it's the best economic system ever invented by mankind. It's successfully fed more people than any other rival system ever has.

Not to mention supplied the people with new outfits for V3.

Message edited on: 07/25/2005 12:19

P.S. Poser is a luxury, not a necessity. For most of us.