Quote - Don't we have this discussion every year or so? 

Either way, I don't really mind poserdom being an economy.

Money into the hobby of poser keeps renderosity / daz / runtimedna / poserpros afloat.  Which in turn lets talented people like aerysoul for example to continue doing what they do and the poser hobbyist do what they do.

Do I agree that 95% of the poser renders on here suck ass?  Yes, mine included which is why I now post like once a year.

I guess to summarize, Renderosity has been the way it is now for a long time, it's good for business. 

Level headed thinking (above).

To further a point I wanted to make: There are people who consider themselves purists in every creative arena. Illustration buffs who consider trace ups sacrilege (despite the fact that it has been practiced since the advent of photography). Comic book artists who consider realists work stiff and unimaginative. Realists who consider comic book art to be anatomical torture of the human figure. Illustrators who think the use of 3D is cheating. 3D artists who know how tough good 3D is to create, thinking those illustrators are full of sh%t. Artists who think anything done on the computer to be fraudulent....
The list goes on.
When you have been around a while you will here all the BS.
The fact is that there are more creative tools then ever. Those who use them well will be good artists. It takes a lot of work to get there, and you are never good enough.

So learn to ignore the self anointed purists. They are hacks who should be spending their time improving their own abilities.

Still missing the point. Whether Poser is "Art" is an interesting but ultimately futile discussion -- and as noted, it re-occurs at least once a month. Pengy's point, tho, was you can't whine about not being respected if you refuse to play by the same rules. You want respect among people who model and texture their own, model and texture your own. You want respect among luthiers, it doesn't matter how good you PLAY a guitar! And you want respect among comic-book artists, it doesn't matter how good you are with oils. (Well, actually, all artists with skill and talent and vision get respected, across all boundaries. Those luthiers enjoy a good oil painting! Take in this context "respect" as meaning "am allowed to post in the same galleries as them, can hang out in their forums and talk shop, et al.") As much as you articulately defend your own choices, the ultimate point here was about trying to change the rules of someone else's game to accommodate you. By the by, Penguinisto has been writing tirelessly for decades on 3d art. He has been steadfast in trying to improve the breed and fight for respect of all 3d arts in the larger artistic community. This was not a seagull posting.

I did a panel at Dragon*Con one year.  I went toe to toe with Janny Wurtz in a cleverly titled battle called "Is Digital Art Really Art?"  Fortunately, her biases against the ENTIRE  medium (Not just talking about poser art here but digital art over all) made most of my arguements for me.

There's a crap load of bad Poser art out there, nobody will deny that.  For every 'wow, that's incredible' piece there are at least three dozen completely crap pieces (some of them are even mine!).  It's no wonder it gets a bad name.  I spent a lot of time myself, at art shows and conventions, slowly changing people's minds about the medium.  I was accepted by a lot of really talented artists as 'one of them' even AFTER they learned my process and how I don't create all my damn textures by hand or model my own models. 

It's attitude, talent and vision that will set the 'artists' apart from the hacks.  Me, I'm a hobbyist really.  I stopped doing commercial art some time ago because it's much more fun to create for myself.  I might start showing again, eventually, because I miss my friends.

While I see Penguinisto's point, underneath the vitriol and obvious disdain he has, there are better ways to go about making it.  Dropping a bomb and running away isn't a good way   It's classic internet troll behavior and, quite frankly, something I would have thought he'd be above.

I think Pengy's not been feeling like a welcome guest of late. Trust me; ttry being a raven for ten years and eventually people will start complaining about the smell of old bird around the place. You are ahead of me, Moxie....I gave up on "art" years ago. These days I'd be deliriously happy just to achieve "craft" once in a while. (Actually, I think removing the capital letters from what you do makes it a little easier to see it with a clear eye. I want out of what I do everything that an "artist" wants, but since I'm not trying to live up to that title I can let go of ego and concentrate on actual accomplishment.) I still say the basic problem is that Sturgeon's Law holds, and Poser is the word-processor of 3d; like the former allows more hack writers to fill up the slush piles and jam the transoms with unsolicited manuscript, the latter has created a situation where people cry that they aren't allowed to submit more than one image a day to online galleries. Has nothing to do with potential quality; just something that goes hand-in-hand with that wonderful democratization that the new technologies have also brought. Anyone can make art now, and that is a wonderful thing. Programs like Bryce and Poser brought a great many people that never thought they could paint or draw to being able to actually realize some of what they imagined. And some of these self-doubting users have turned out to be very, very good. And that's a wonderful thing. I miss, myself, the days when listening to music meant you and your friends gathered around the piano in the parlor. So much, these days, it seems we are drawing lines and saying "SHE is an artist, but YOU are just a normal person and aren't allowed to take part." But let's not let this open-ness and this wonderful willingness on the part of many to play blind us to a very basic idea; that if a thing is worth doing it is worth doing well. Or maybe at the heart of things there is a conflict here between Artiste and Craftsman. That nothing raises the hackles on the latter more than people who refuse to learn technique; and that the former is only interested in the "love me for my inner beauty" game played by every amateur poet out there. (I try to take a neutral view of this conflict, but it is hard as my blood is pure Morlock -- craftsman to the core, with an instinctive racial dislike of the Aht and Beauty crowd.) So is there no middle ground? Is it not possible for some of the posters to this thread to step back and say "Okay, I'm doing this for myself, it's only important that I do ART and whatever I want is all that is important.....but it wouldn't kill me to learn a little about Color Theory, and maybe even try my hand at making a mesh once. Who knows; I might like it!"

OR maybe pengy just loves to wind people up & let them run. :D

And LTD has BINGO!!!!!

Quote -
While I see Penguinisto's point, underneath the vitriol and obvious disdain he has, there are better ways to go about making it.  Dropping a bomb and running away isn't a good way   It's classic internet troll behavior and, quite frankly, something I would have thought he'd be above.

Pengy is Poser's classic internet troll.

Since he started working for DAZ he's been out of most of it which is commendable in keeping his bias out of it...of course he still drops a bomb a runs from time to time. 

I agree with a couple of the other posters.  Since the orginiator of this thread has yet to come back and add to this series of arguments he so proficiently started 6 pages ago...I consider his rant and whine null and void.

If you don't have the male danglies to answer points to your whining, then don't bring back a dead horse to whip.

Quote - I agree with a couple of the other posters.  Since the orginiator of this thread has yet to come back and add to this series of arguments he so proficiently started 6 pages ago...I consider his rant and whine null and void.

If you don't have the male danglies to answer points to your whining, then don't bring back a dead horse to whip.

But it makes popcorn taste soooooooo good ;)

:tt2: LOL!!  Be that as it may....

Quote - Still missing the point. Whether Poser is "Art" is an interesting but ultimately futile discussion -- and as noted, it re-occurs at least once a month.

Maybe the problem is understanding the clear seperation of the tool from the creation. There is a handful of artists I have seen who bend the program to there will - making decent art. I also have seen really ood illustrators use Poser as a starting point for digital painting. The medical illustration field now contains a lot of art that is referenced from poser.

Then there are those who just use what is already created and do renderings.

In 2D traditional illustration the technique of trace up is widely used, especially for portraits. The real illustrator does not slavishly stick to outlines - the amature does.

Quote - Pengy's point, tho, was you can't whine about not being respected if you refuse to play by the same rules.

Quote - the ultimate point here was about trying to change the rules of someone else's game to accommodate you.

Innovation comes from refusing to play by established rules.
That said I understand the point you are making.

Quote - "Well, actually, all artists with skill and talent and vision get respected, across all boundaries."

True; especially by those who have an underlying knowledge of the creative (technical aspects) process.

I may have mentioned this before but Poser is used in a certain daily newspaper in the UK every day & has been for a couple of years now.

Quote - Actually, the Shat just put out an album in the last year or so entitled "Has Been".  Not sure how it compares to the wonderful "Transformed Man" which can fill a gap in any music collection.

I liked it. He has a good sense of humor, and he had the sense to collaborate with people like Ben Folds and Henry Rollins. There are also a couple of touching songs, one about his late wife, and one about not being there for his daughter when she was growing up.

I'll definitely have to check out "Has Been".  I heard that it was coming out, which reminded me I'd always wanted to hear "Transformed Man" since I saw Ben Folds on TV telling Shatner it was the album that changed his life (or something to that effect).  Now to see if I can steer this back on topic...

Did anyone see/hear/read about the guy who recorded a song one note at a time and composed it in cakewalk (or something) and then made a video to match?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzqumbhfxRo

I like that concept alot, and it reminds me a bit of this discussion.  I've been in a few noise bands, and have always thought I'd like to take some of the nicer bits from my old tapes and try to produce an actual melodic pop song from them.  Watching this guy nonlinearly playing piano (I haven't heard it yet) makes me think that no matter how good the end result sounds, some people would never consider him a musician because of those methods.  I think that's some kind of sentimental purism, and I just don't seem to have the genes for that as some people do.  I actually think I might like the Grey album (Beatles+Jay-Z) better than the White or Black albums. 

...and the thread skews OT once again. ;'] I do quite like chuby 'ol Shat though and have enjoyed the 'debate' (as it were) very much. This has been a great thread, even if only taken at entertainment value.

Who or what the heck is Shat? surely you don't mean William Shatner? I could just about tolerate him in Star Trek without having to listen to him mumble his way through a whole albums worth of horrible songs. Anyway what was the original point of this thread? wasn't it something about S&M & equine corpses?

Quote - I may have mentioned this before but Poser is used in a certain daily newspaper in the UK every day & has been for a couple of years now.

:scared:  Uhhhhhhh, don't tell me 'Page 3' is now NVIATWAS ???

Quote - :scared:  Uhhhhhhh, don't tell me 'Page 3' is now NVIATWAS ???

I'm sure you'll be relieved to hear that's not "Page 3" :D that would be funny though, no I was actually talking about the Striker cartoon further back, you know the football thing? they've been using Poser figures for a couple of years now & they actually do quite a good job of morphing the figures they use, Vicky is unmistakable when they use her but some of the others have me scratching my head, I think they must use the addon morphs by Capsces.

Ah, it's been a few years since I read the Sun, or any newspaper for that matter.  I remember Striker though I used to avoid it - football - euk!  One thing I do miss is Hagar - he was funny.

Actually, the thought of the Page 3's being poser is quite amusing - and they'd probably look more realistic and have smaller boobs even if wyremastered than most of the enhanced human models LOL!

I thought the Black Album was Spinal Tap..;)
Heck, this is one of our perennials..the only thing to make it complete would be the return of the Pink Pony (woops, wrong thread..;) or the 'beating the dead horse' animation..;)

One of the nice things about being an old f*rt is that 'proving yourself' isn't such the be-all and end-all anymore...kinda liberating in a way..;) Have fun, make art, you can do both, or neither. It's all up to you.

WOW, artist telling artists how to do art.

Its crazy when you buy a piece of software and someone thinks its to easy to use so then decides that what ever is created with that software is garbage.

I guess with that said if you wanted to produce computer generated graphic and consider it to be art you need to....

Create your own textures, models, lighting and poses or animations.

Well lets take that further, if thats the case you should write your own software because using someone else's software makes it to easy to create renders.

And if we go further you should create your own programming language because using someone else's language is to easy.

and if we go further still, you have to design and manufacture you own pc because using someone else's design would be to easy. but what about electricity?

I know that I went to an extreme but these kind of topics are designed only to hurt someones feeling so that a couple of people can feel better about them selves.

Myself I don't care what people use to aid them is creating an image that they have envisioned, a person with an active imagination is a happier person.

If you don't like the software other people use so what, I don't use a Mac but I still respect the people that use them.

I said this in another topic and thought it made sense "if I carve into a piece of wood but didn't grow the tree does that make me any less an artist?"

There are a lot of personal users and large companies that use already made content, and they should if it fits into what they are doing.

I do encourage building you own models but only if you want to not because yo have to.

Penguinisto, its funny because its true!

Poser is easy to use (relatively) its cheap  its fun. Most of what gets done with it is very ordinary (to put it politely - mine included).  I spend money on graphics software because it seems better than wasting it on games. I get more fun out of it in the long run. It doesn't bother me that people render crap if they are getting a kick out of it but why oh why do they post everything they render? I have to admit  I NEVER look at the Poser gallery because there is always so much dross - I come here for some of the lesser galleries and to check the forums. 

I have noticed about this forum recently and check some of the opinions.

I found Daz Studio almost a year and Poser only 9 months ago, and just because I was looking for some Bryce info (refered by a friend in my Design school in college). When I finaly get them, I couldn´t believe the easy that they are to work with (at that time, I didn´t  have a Studio 3d max, and now I´m still learning how to use it). In my particular case, I´m a rookie in 3d matters. All my life I made hand drawing and then I started to use programs such as Corel or Ilustrator, but 3d is still something new to me, and Poser turns into a awesome tool to learn some of the basics.

Now I´m getting to the point. The works on Poser (or any 3d software) are art? Only those who intend to be art. I don´t  t know if most of works posted here are ART (in the academic sense of the word), but it doesn´t mean that they are "bad" or "ordinary". All depends if someone want to make his post as art. I don´t think I made art. After all, I´m a graphic designer not an artist (yet).

I think that this fight (to call it some way)is a constant in the art. The new forms, styles and conceptions are really art? Dalí, Miro, Picasso really made art? No for those who have a more classical conception.

But one thing is true. Have a camera don´t made you a photographer, have a canvas and some brushes don´t made you a painter. Have 3D max don´t made you a 3D artist.

Have the toys is only 1/3th of the game.

"One of the nice things about being an old f*rt is that 'proving yourself' isn't such the be-all and end-all anymore"

Being 57 yrs old myself, I like that. :-) 
Many seem far to preoccupied with what others think, and must not be all that comfortable with what they produce. Producing art solely for the appreciation of other artists, so to speak.

For some, the ends justify the means- for others, it doesn't. You can't blame Pengy for pointing out that Poser is generally considered a "low-end" app. That's how it's generally viewed in the CG world, and it's not his fault that it's viewed in that manner. All he did was tell some folks something they didn't really want to hear.
Likewise, those who dismiss work done in poser as "crap" are obviously not comfortable with their own abilities or limitations. I believe the true "pro's" will smile to themselves and offer encouragement. Directed encouragement will always be received better than criticism.

Of course, I'm wrong a lot, you can ask my wife.