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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Oct 22 4:45 pm)
Subject: Honesty in the galleries...no more suck up!
I have a hot young pussy on my desk right now....
Beryl, the Art Charts are calculated on a variety of factors, as I already stated... not just comments.
In fact, if members of our critique group use the rating system, they will be doing so honestly (not just blindly awarding 5s all round as is the custom) so it may actually disadvantage the artist in terms of the charts.
"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan
Shire
Well even though my images, the few that I have opsted, are flagged for nice critiscism, I'm not totally adverse to having things pointed out that actually teach me something. "You Suck", however, isn't one of the critiscism's I care to hear. (Even though I consider myself to be extremely good at "sucking!") :a_blush:
umm....an accusation is generally where you accuse someone of doing something...
eg......"all beryld does is oooh and aaah pics in the gallery"....
a suggestion is where you suggest someone go do something
eg.... "and if you want other ppl in the art charts....then go and "oooh" and "aahh" some pics in the gallery."
Attached Link: http://pics.livejournal.com/pocket_saviour/gallery/0000zhxk
Well, now that we've gone totally off topic, you can see some more pics of my pussy (hurr, hurr) at the attached link.I have got some more pics on my camera but I haven't transferred them yet. They are about 15 weeks now, I think, and growing almost visibly :-)
"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan
Shire
since the "Today's Most Commented" images are between 80 and 48 comments, and we're only 30 people so far, even if every member commented on every image, we'd be far from the top.
please believe me when i say i am not picking on anybody by typing my thought process to the above :))
if the group grows, then it will become a factor
if say BillyBob123Niner [made up name i hope] already receives on the average 16 or so comments naturally without signing up, then signs up, he will start to receive on average 46 or comments, so it will artificially effect the 'Most Commented' section [a pointless section to begin with, imo, but not my point]
i'd much rather see & participate in a Critique Forum rather than have things occur within the Galleries... i'd prefer not to have this wonderful idea tainted by negative perspectives or suspicions, like joining to artifically inflate one's Favourite listing or to get in the Most Commented section or whatever... anything that could be done to help the perception of true intent of the group, i feel, is extremely important, especially since some people participating might already feel more "vunerable" due to opening up to critiques in the first place...
in your scenario, every single person in the group posted. the group is in effect now. the only people i've seen with lots of comments are the people who already had lots of comments (as in several pages). so far as i've seen, people who get 3 to 6 comments now have 6 to 9 comments. if the group grows huge... frankly, i don't know. i think it depends on the culture. i'm taking an average of 15 to 20 minutes per comment. i'm not sure tons of people will do that. if you're worried about the culture of the group shifting, i'd say join in (even without doing the favorites) and start posting the kind of reviews you think should be happening.
and you're arguing on both sides. you're saying the intent of the group needs to be clear because people will be scared to join but then saying tons of people will join to be popular. it can't really be both.
it amazes me how many people are already deciding what will happen without actually checking what's going on now. nothing like this initiative has been tried, but people keep talking about negative effects. whereas just about every other solution suggested has been tried for other initiatives (critique thread, critique forum, critique gallery) and all pretty much crashed and burned. multiple times. this is the main forum; people won't go elsewhere unless there's a really pressing need. hence the complete lack of traffic in the developers and w.i.p. forums. it's not that nobody's doing that work and posting about it, it's that they post to modeling software threads at most and usually post here. tons of people use more digital manipulation, digital painting and photographs than poser, but they fight not to have to post to mixed medium because they get no views there. i've seen people post to the poser gallery who are rendering in bryce and vue. and threads get messy, go off topic, then die. right now the subscription thread has turned into a discussion. that's what threads are for. i've never seen any long thread actually stay completely on topic, let alone receive only the type of posts it was supposed to have. so we could easily be stuck wading through pages and pages of posts (and tons of useless ebots when the inevitable disagreement came along, as it does in even the most friendly of group threads) just to have to find the few image postings.
and frankly, favorites last. why do these buddy networks work? because people make lots of favorites and get notices and keep posting to each other's pics. their method works for generating feedback, because it works proactively. in point of fact, it is the absolutely only way i've seen a commenting / response group work. including at artzone, which seems to be rapidly dying (based on the lack of updates i've seen in the many, many people i've bookmarked and the few i've added as friends, the stabilization of the number of users, and other signs of lowered activity). even though it has actual community tools like groups you can join with membership controlled by group leaders. i've watched everything else die pretty quickly. there's a reason blogs have their own rss feeds instead of just posting to one main blog directory. in fact, blogs became hugely popular precisely when rss feeds and rss readers became popular.
no matter what people's intent, unless there is an image by image notification external to the wealth of unpopular and unfrequented forums or galleries, and an ability to comment right then and there, i do not believe they will consistently comment. i don't know it will work this way, but at least that's had some success.
it really doesn't matter how you slice it, either. the important thing is always going to be the culture of the group. there are zero things you can do to get a group of people to view your work and absolutely eliminate the possibility of it becoming a way to become popular. community interaction helps make you popular. whether this will actually be an influential subcommunity, i don't know. but i really doubt it.
right now the strategy is wait and see. personally, i want this to succeed, and since every alternative solution people have raised, i've seen fail spectacularly, i think trying something that has been proven to work is better.
*and you're arguing on both sides. you're saying the intent of the group needs to be clear because people will be scared to join but then saying tons of people will join to be popular. it can't really be both.
*actually that's not what i said, nor even what i meant... i did not attribute any intent on BillyBob123Niner's motivation to join - i truly was only thinking of things from a mathematical perspective :))
in terms of "deciding negative effects", honestly? i've not done that either, neither here nor in my head... my intent on that part was trying to think of potential negative effects and ways to possibly navigate away from them before they even occurred if they occur[red]... i'm a planner by nature and i've a habit of trying to think of scenarios and/or consequences in advance as well as trying to see things from as many different perspectives [whether i agree with them or not] as possible in order to try to determine what i feel would be the best course of action - that's just how i'm hardwired...
i realise you don't know me or anything really about me, and that quite possibly you'll never care to, but i am quite sincere in wanting something like a Critique Group to be met with as much success as possible... you've no idea how much actually [soft smile]
*no matter what people's intent, unless there is an image by image notification external to the wealth of unpopular and unfrequented forums or galleries, and an ability to comment right then and there, i do not believe they will consistently comment. i don't know it will work this way, but at least that's had some success.
*wouldn't subscribing to a forum achieve the same thing?
i'm asking this honestly without any sarcasm or rancor because i thought one could subscribe to a particular forum so that any time someone posts to it, an ebot is sent? is this incorrect? [i've never done it so i truly don't know...] :o
*nothing like this initiative has been tried, but people keep talking about negative effects. whereas just about every other solution suggested has been tried for other initiatives (critique thread, critique forum, critique gallery)
*there's been a critiquing forum before? i never knew that, but i typically don't visit forums either so it wouldn't surprise if there had been...heh... someone kindly whispered in my ear about the potential of a critique group since they knew i'd be very interested, and that's how i got here :))
if the prior forum existed and failed, do you think think it might've been more due to a different climate than what exists today? due to different forum software where there wasn't a way subscribe & receive notifications about anything either? my memory may be faulty on this, but i think when i first joined Rendo there wasn't even a Favourites type of thing [i think it was implemented in 2k2?]
Quote - since the "Today's Most Commented" images are between 80 and 48 comments, and we're only 30 people so far, even if every member commented on every image, we'd be far from the top.
please believe me when i say i am not picking on anybody by typing my thought process to the above :))
if the group grows, then it will become a factor
if say BillyBob123Niner [made up name i hope] already receives on the average 16 or so comments naturally without signing up, then signs up, he will start to receive on average 46 or comments, so it will artificially effect the 'Most Commented' section [a pointless section to begin with, imo, but not my point]i'd much rather see & participate in a Critique Forum rather than have things occur within the Galleries... i'd prefer not to have this wonderful idea tainted by negative perspectives or suspicions, like joining to artifically inflate one's Favourite listing or to get in the Most Commented section or whatever... anything that could be done to help the perception of true intent of the group, i feel, is extremely important, especially since some people participating might already feel more "vunerable" due to opening up to critiques in the first place...
As someone who agreed with ya, I feel I must let you know that BillyBob123Niner is actually my real name and I am highly highly offended!
J/k. :)
"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination.
Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert
Einstein
Free the freebies!
Giana:
Quote - if the group grows, then it will become a factor
I don't understand the problem. If it becomes a regular thing that 80 or so people will reliably, honestly, thoughtfully critique someone's postings - I would call that genuine cultural change here, and a very good one.
Bah
Another topic goes off on a diff tangent, you will allways get certain people will allways comment on certain peeps work.
It's like they have a sex fetish thing about certain artist's, just like certain people go in mass histeria and sexual lust when a new microsoft operting system comes out.
Will allways happen and will never end.
This is sort of a dead horse, but I have to agree with Anton. Some people are more commented on because they comment on other people's images. Some because of the genre that they work in (pinups). Some are frequently viewed because they conduct their artwork in series so viewers remain interested in their work. And others, simply because they are well known.
A couple years ago, it was much easier to try to tailor my work to try to get more views and comments; or comment in the galleries in hopes that more social activity would mean more views. Now I definitely just create what interests me.
There is no formula for what will constitute getting your images viewed and commented on. Nudity and pinups have typically been said to be higher viewed. But I have done nudity and pinups with lower views and comments compared to other images at the same time. Other preconceptions might say that images of women are more viewed and commented on than men. While this tends to be true, it is not a rule. I have done images of women that have been largely ignored and had images of men that had a few comments.
The disparity in views and comments use to really bother me. Now I have accepted that I have a fan base of people are who consistent in viewing my images. At the end of the day, I think that's pretty much all you can do...
I find it more than a little odd that the OP and certain other vehement participants in this thread have not expressed interest in the critique cabal.
*Giana:
*Quote - "if the group grows, then it will become a factor"
*I don't understand the problem. If it becomes a regular thing that 80 or so people will reliably, honestly, thoughtfully critique someone's postings - I would call that genuine cultural change here, and a very good one.
*can i just first say that i am very very supportive of this whole thing? that i am hoping quite desperately for exactly what you stated - a cultural shifting...
my concerns started to blossom a bit after reading some of the things in this thread plus just some thoughts free-ranging in my own head... no, actually, that's not quite right - some of it is driven more by feelings than intellect, so if i stumble here in trying to express them, it lies mostly in trying to find the proper words to accurately define & then to translate into some the written word...
i would like to see/hope/sense that the group is taken seriously in terms of being something viable, a good tool that is stimulating growth, that is stimulating honest encouragement, that is stimulating relationships [because i'm betting that those who who parttake in the group will most likely form a certain kind of bond due to honesty, trust, common goals, routine exposure, etc.]... all the good things that fall within the idea, or p'raps my idea, of true community.
what i don't want is an Us vs. Them mentality surrounding the group, be it something coming from the group itself or a thing surrounding the group by others. yes, it is open to anyone who cares to join, non-exclusive, no elitism - i get that. and yes, one cannot control anyone else's perceptions so why worry about it, right? the thing is is that i do worry, whether that's a rational thing or not, and no matter what i understand intellectually, i feel it...
i'm all for the "underdog", have been my entire life, often being ostrasised by the 'alpha' group because i "backed the wrong horse" in their opine. i mention this only in hopes of better explaining where i coming from...
i don't want to see a person's artwork discounted solely based on the fact that they'e part of the Critique Group... i'll just use the Most Commented Section as an example... if say 50 people are rigorously participating, consistantly commenting, etc., and images from the group are routinely in that section, it could be very easy for a person who has not joined to come along and say/think/gossip that the only reason the artwork is there is because of the creator's "buddies"/group. that kind of mentality already existed prior to the group's incarnation, so why wouldn't it continue, if you see what i mean? then the focus is back on a person's name rather than the art - obviously through no one's doing since that's just how 'sity has things set-up. but it worries me to think that someone in the group, someone who is seeking honestly a way to improve & who is asking for help, who has opened themselves up to truthful feedback, could have their artwork so casually discounted & discarded solely based on those very things...
i've been typing & thinking on this for an hour almost now [though you'd think there'd be more to show for it, yes? heh], and i am quite unsure if any of this makes sense or not to you or to anybody... my thoughts have become too jumbled for the mo', so i'll stop here...
i would only ask anyone reading this to realise that i'm a fairly shy person and that i do feel vunerable to a degree typing out into public some of my private/personal thoughts/feelings - so if anyone cares to jump on me in some way for anything i've said, could you p'raps jump a little softly? [li'l smile]
first off, just as an fyi, i'm not upset or angry. i'm open to getting to know everyone in this thread. i think the criticisms and alternate ideas have been offered with thoughtfulness and care, and done politely. and i think that everyone who's showed concern about the critique group has shown that they are interested, that they care about the idea, and they just want it done in the most positive way possible. i just think the slant seems to be more towards the possible negatives of this implementation and not of negatives of the others proposed. and don't necessarily take into account that every solution will have potential negatives; it's more about how the group behaves than the mechanism.
no, there hasn't been a critique forum. but there is a developer's forum for people to post w.i.p projects. it has nearly zero traffic. there's never been a critique gallery, but i was around when penguinisto first posted his teen v3 made with her base morphs (her face was much more genuinely teen than laura's). he posted all his morph settings with it. the next thing you know, other people were sharing of settings for characters. so rendo created the character formula gallery, for people to post characters and their morph settings to share (hence the "formula"). within a very short period of time, people were using it incorrectly for everything from promoting commercial morph poses to showing custom made figures. so it went from this really positive initiative where we'd share information to make great figures to another gallery with little activity.
and those are both single examples. i've seen that type of thing happen again and again with both galleries and forums on different sites.
no, i wouldn't say subscribing to threads is the same. first of all, any thread, even at one per image, will have drift and personality. as an example, Giana, you posted this same argument to a sticky meant only for "i'm subscribing" or "i'm unsubscribing." you had another place to put your concerns, but you still brought the conversation to (technically) the wrong place. this isn't (at all) to single you out- i myself have posted opinions and such in that thread. it's just to illustrate that even someone employing great thought and care, and driven by the best intentions, will take a thread off track. forums are meant for conversations. i don't need to be notified every time someone offers a new critique, gets into a disagreement, posts tangential thoughts or pictures of kittens. forums have a much lower signal to noise ratio than galleries. i don't know of any forum software that would alert me only with new images.
also, here i've posted how many times? i'll never comment on an image more than once. i don't even think the system allows it. a forum or thread or any discussion would be quickly dominated by the same personality trends presently dominating the forums. then it would become a clique. right now, it doesn't matter at all who you are. i don't really know anything about people other than what they want artistically if they said so. i'm looking at their work, not reacting to whether they like dogs and hate cats or who they voted for in the last election. or, more saliently, whether they sided with anton or shahara in the blow-up over clark.
right now, if a shy person signs up, and they have basically the same experience as someone more verbose (like me). that wouldn't be the case at all if the critiques entirely took place in the discussion boards.
regarding participation: as i mentioned before, people fight when the issue of removing their type of work from the poser gallery or their type of post from this forum arises. that's because people don't really traffic the other forums or other galleries. we're not trying to dominate, but i don't think we should force people to hide their work, either.
if it takes place in another forum, it will die. if the critiques take place in thread(s) in this forum, they'll become discussions and will become social groups about personalities and not just the work. and people will actually be excluded instead of just feeling like they are. if it leaves the poser gallery, images won't be seen.
and i have to add to the questions that pjz99 posted. it seems like the worst case scenario proposed is that images with lots of thoughtful criticism will be high profile. and while people might not want to join, all they'd have to do to if they did want to is post "let me in" in a thread. not post tons of positive remarks on everyone's images, not campaign for popularity, just one post in one thread and they're in. how is this bad? because people might fear it? if the images get into the gallery at all, and are open for comments and ratings, people will fear a group. there is no technology that will remove the positive effects of participation in a community. and i think that's good.
believe me, i understand being the underdog. that's always where i am, too. personally, i grew up as outside the norm in pretty basic ways i won't get into here. but you can only do so much to reach out. and it doesn't matter where it happens, people afraid of groups are going to be afraid of this group. and i think most other solutions, including continuing to talk about it and make ourselves (as members) more visible as people outside of our artwork, will only intensify the issue. i think the best we can do, no matter what the mechanism, is to respond to people who feel left out with a hearty, "come on in! we'd love to have you."
oh, and a note- the last part about posting is directed at myself. after this monster post, i'll shut up and let other people talk ;D. please feel free to continue discussing this, and know i still care.
peace out.
Giana, I think your fears are well founded because there is a truth behind them. I'm not going to go as far as "discounting" the success of critique group artists but I will recognize that it's the product of a artificial system imposed on the main gallery. People in the group haven't earned their hits/comments by appealing thumbnails or developing a fan base but because they signed their names to a list and implicitly agreed to comment on other people's work within the group. Look at next week's "50 most popular artists" list, it'll be dominated by the critique group. Why? Because they signed their names.
I think the critique group is a positive thing and hopefully the emphasis will be on quality critiques, I'm just saying it'll render a lot of stats meaningless (which people shouldn't be concerned about anyway :-)).
Okay, if the Holy Applecart starts to get tipped over, the regularly gallery dominators will simply join this effort if they're willing and/org eager to get this kind of commentary. What's the problem? I'm not seeing any us-vs.-them mentality except from people who are *not participating.
*As I see it, this is simply using the galleries exactly as they're designed, for a really pretty moral and useful application. Of course it can be abused, but if that starts to become a problem many people will drop out of it - I would, I know many others would.
As the Original Poster...I dropped out of the thread after the mod not only allowed the intentional disruption and attempted hijacking of the thread with the cat pictures...she did it herself. I find that just plan rude, and I suspect, a TOS violation. Certain members do this all the time...they see a discussion they don't approve of and the next thing you know it's hijacked and flooded with cat pictures.
As far as the critique cabal...if you want to be a part of it, feel free. My primary point was that there are too many cliques stroking each other whether the images deserve it or not. The Most Commented and the Highest Rated are just the HOT 20 with different names. There's no point to them and they should be removed from the front page. The are not representative of the highest quality artwork on the site in most cases. We need more honesty and fewer "mutual admiration societies". There was a discussion about the new thumbnail rule in which a mods stated to the effect that the site needed to look more professional...yet they create the Most Commented and Hightest Rated and the Art Charts which are still nothing more than popularity contests...and popular doesn't alway add up to good.
It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!!
Quote - If the Most Commented, Highest Rating, and Top 20 are so upsetting, why not just NOT LOOK at them?
I think I've seen them once in the entire time I've been a member here. Ratings don't interest me.
SoCalRoberta,
I think what triggered this entire thread is that, with the default gallery settings, you get 27 images on the front page of the galleries. Only 1/3 are new images, the other two thirds are split between Today's Most Commented and Today's Most Rated. With this new setup it's hard to avoid not looking at them.
I will say this about that- I personally like honest crits IF they are given by someone that knows what they are talking about. The first thing I do when I get a crit is to look at that persons gallery and decide the validity of thier remark based on the level of thier work. I will almost always thank them for thier time and then either use the advice or not. NOW the exception - frigg'n TROLLS - I have no idea why some people with no talent , drive ,or desire lurk around boards and post assinine comments - I guess it is just the nature of the internet. personally I think that if you do not post work for others to see you don't get to bash others. - just my $0.02
Well, I think this is a popular point of view. And it may very well apply to some points of technical criticism. But to subscribe wholly to that theory would mean that only chefs could tell if a dish were well prepared. Only other writers could tell if a book were well written...
Almost anyone with visual acuity can tell you if something is not right with an image, they may not be able to tell you how to correct it or even explain what it is that's not right.
Let's say that you posted an image where the foot was through the floor and I commented on it. It wouldn't matter if you checked out my gallery and found forty pictures with the feet poking through the floor, the comment about your image is still valid.
Don't get me wrong, I've looked at other people's galleries based on their critique. But the first thing I did, was look at the problem pointed out to me and tried to objectively determine the validity of the comment. Was I successful? Maybe... Maybe not.
The first thing I do when I get a crit is to look at that persons gallery and decide the validity of thier remark based on the level of thier work.
i know folks that do exactly that, too, jf, but i'm not sure that it is a good indicator of the validity of their advice. i say this because i had a friend [non-online] who i knew/know well enough to say has very little talent in terms of drawing/painting, and yet was able to give me some extremely good advice from time to time, if you see what i mean? :))
yet they create the Most Commented and Hightest Rated and the Art Charts which are still nothing more than popularity contests...and popular doesn't alway add up to good.
i agree. i'm not interested by them either. the thing is is that the problem lies more with how those things are used and not with those things themselves. personally, i'd love to see those things removed as well if for no other reason than to create a more relaxed environment, so to speak, and maybe a greater sense of community, but i'm not sure removing them actually addresses what i perceive to be the real problem which is how they are used since what drives them is people's behaviours/tendencies... i'm not asking you to agree, but does that make any sense?
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yeah, I reckon I see beryl's point. although very few folks will sign up in the criticism thread (compared to the total number of folks posting images), those asking for criticism will see a change in their ratings, compared to those who aren't explicitly asking for criticism. does it mean that those who don't ask for real criticism will be left to stagnate in a bog of meaningless comments, as they are now? perhaps not, as I have a feeling that we're gonna see threads in this forum complaining about unfair criticism, once the process gets into full gear, and the process will quickly taper off as a result.