I glanced at your posts there Wolf, and thought at first what you were talking about was similar to the principle on which it's currently possible to import Poser scenes into Vue... where you can select the option to retain the ability to re-pose figures inside Vue... and even use Poser's shader tree when rendering.

I mean the functionality detailed here, in the "Poser Import" section:

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_10_modules/?page=3dimport

Basically, as I understand it, Vue loads up Poser in the background and automates it via the Poser SDK. It needs a fairly hefty amount of system resource to work well. But provided with that system resource, it does work well (provided you've also got your Poser SDK selected properly in the Vue prefs).

I'm not personally espousing this approach as a route for Genesis in Poser... just saying initially I'd jumped to the conclusion that this was what was being talked about.

But then I realised I was imagining things there... actually it sounds more equivalent to COLLADA, this DSON idea... would that be right at all???

Quote - ...

The answer given was : "theoreticaly All functionality depending on how the third party wrote his own plugin"

"I'd still have to use DS, right?"

From the description I would say yes
it would likely be an additional Export option from Daz studio
ex save as FBX ,Colladda, "DSON"

To me it sounds like they are extending the functionality of their dsf format to full scenes, not only their characters. They could easily have some success with it, because it is so simple (in my personal undiscussible opinion at least). Because when you look at the fileformats that work best for exchange of data between applications, you find obj, bvh, mdd and tga formats which have the common property of being dead simple, and less of pz3, collada, 3ds and max files, with each of them undoubtly being more powerfull than all the simple formats put together, but simply could not make it into big world of import/export formats because of their complexity. IMO especially game developers like simple formats (probably because they rather spend their time testing their games instead of reading specifications :-)

"But then I realised I was imagining things there... actually it sounds more equivalent to COLLADA, this DSON idea... would that be right at all???...

To me it sounds like they are extending the functionality of their dsf format to full scenes, not only their characters.
"

Hi when I read this:
"The new DSON (DAZ Scene Object Notation) format (yeah, the name is kinda geeky, but hey, it’s a 3D file format specification) allows items to be broken up into collections of assets that can be addressed via a lightweight scene description. This lightweight scene file can be shared with friends and passed around legally and will faithfully reproduce everything about the saved scene. This is one of the biggest changes you will see in the next release of DAZ Studio."

The first thing that came to my mind this is possibly a "scene description" file format that still requires
to have the support Data files Sort of like what the legacy PZ3 does now.

If that is the case I do see one possible advantage for a potential third party plugin developer based on my experience with

INTERPOSER PRO for Maxon Cinema4D

Interposer pro plugin for C4D reads the various poser formats in the complete absence of the poser application itself.

With it I can Load a PZ3, animated PZ2 ,MAT, pose, BVH, posers lights& cameras  into C4D directly from any properly structured runtime or runtime folders.

And once in C4D I have all the parameter Dials that i would have in poser to Dial in morphs etc plus more added by the plugin that are not even available in poser.

Not sure if this is the approach Daz is taking with this new "DSON" format but We will see soon after its release.

Cheers

Seems odd that they would create yet another new file format (DSON) to try to bridge to another app when there are already plenty of bridge formats out there that already work fine.

Sort of reinventing the wheel if you ask me.

That is the one thing that turns me off to DStudio, too many new file formats that do little, if anything, more than the standard opensource formats already do.

New file formats like that will never get adopted into high end apps unless there is some new awesome technology linked to it. If there is some new awesome tech, lots of companies will buy the rights to it and put it in their programs.

Sort of explains why Genesis only works in DStudio, doesn't it....

Quote - Seems odd that they would create yet another new file format (DSON) to try to bridge to another app when there are already plenty of bridge formats out there that already work fine.

Sort of reinventing the wheel if you ask me.

Sort of explains why Genesis only works in DStudio, doesn't it....

You would expect more from a company that has tried to reinvent a better Poser and failed?

"Seems odd that they would create yet another new file format (DSON) to try to bridge to another app when there are already plenty of bridge formats out there that already work fine."

Those bridge formats don't work fine for getting a fully functional genesis into other apps...not fully at least.

"New file formats like that will never get adopted into high end apps unless there is some new awesome technology linked to it."
** If there is some new awesome tech, lots of companies will buy the rights to it and put it in their programs.**

Sort of explains why Genesis only works in DStudio, doesn't it...."

how very very true!!!

Cheers

Quote -
It is pointless and demoralising to pine after a figure that doesn't match your chosen technology. This is a hobby, folks. :blink:

That's what I think as well.  I don't care which one is the best.  If it works well in my computer, it is affordable, and I can use it, then it is good for me.  I'll not seek to "convert" others to use the software I'm using.

the thing about discoveries and inventiveness, is that it stems from a need.  mat files weren't part of poser but discovered by poser users, as were mor files I think, and may other great poser inovations.  If we stop wanting a V5 in our runtimes we will never get one.

The pining may achieve nothing or it may lead to some great poser discovery.

so I say, pine away folks.

Love esther

Quote - Sheesh, if you write in C-sharp, Python is going to be a breeze for you ... I mean, even low-intracranial-activity types like me can get the noggin around Python, particularly matmatic (Bagginsbill basically takes the negligible "pain" out of shader-coding).

Looking forward to seeing what you create, MonkeyCloud!

PS: here's fervently hoping that coding shaders is going to be as painless for Cycles (Blender Python) as it is in Poser using matmatic.

RobynsVeil... actually I'd say C# is pretty accessible and straight forward to pick up and has few superficial differences to other contemporary objective-ey languages.

This probably has more to do with the Visual Studio IDE though... and the code completion / Intellisense etc. than anything else. I'd say overall, increasingly, the differences seem to be fewer than the similarities, between a lot of languages, at the level of C#, Java, etc... at least superficially.

Some core syntax aside...

Objective-C did certainly represent a bit more of a learning curve, if you're not coming from a C++ background. A very worthwhile learning curve though, I think... as you had to learn about memory management... and generally tidying up yor stuff, etc.

But Apple have now introduced Automatic Reference Counting (ARC)... which does, I guess, potentially make it more friendly to programmers arriving on the boat from script-kiddie land... which I did myself... originally... as well as a lot of code completion type stuff, in XCode.

But its objective javascript and python that I've been keen to get more into recently I'd say.

Again, I would be inclined to think of programming languages, IDEs, etc. as just more tools to get a job done... hammers, chisels, screwdrivers.

Sometimes, most times, in a work situation, you probably end up using what you find in the work store when you arrive on site... to fit in, and because there's an ongoing prior investment.

Still, a dremmel is a good multitool. But I wouldn't want to have to use one to try to chop down a tree... 

Sorry I guess this is off topic again... still... LOL ;-)

Allways be carefull for what you ask for.
You might get it.

About my only gripe with Python is I haven't found a really good IDE. I'm a pretty shocking programmer, overall, and really depended on VBA's (Excel) IDE, the ability to step through code, put watches on variables, etc. Yeah, you can issue the odd 'print' here and there, but sorry, that's a bit inelegant for this script-kiddie-land wannabe programmer.... :biggrin:

Quote - Allways be carefull for what you ask for.
You might get it.

Personally, I'd rather see SM work on extending the soft body dynamics stuff beyond the cloth room, short term... but I think plenty people are already also asking for that kind of stuff too.

Being able to assign groups of polygons to have varying degrees of wobbly, jelly like properties, or just make the surface of one group depress another slightly on collision, etc, would be great, no... for all sorts of things, not just human figures?

How would this work alongside the weight mapping implementation, I don't know...

Its only possible to eat so much cake in one sitting... but over time, you can hope to try every type of cake in the shop.

Provided none of the cake recipes cease being baked...

;-)

Quote - About my only gripe with Python is I haven't found a really good IDE. I'm a pretty shocking programmer, overall, and really depended on VBA's (Excel) IDE, the ability to step through code, put watches on variables, etc. Yeah, you can issue the odd 'print' here and there, but sorry, that's a bit inelegant for this script-kiddie-land wannabe programmer.... :biggrin:

I've been using Komodo Edit (the free express edition of Komodo IDE) recently for my PHP and Javascript stuff and was therefore going down the route of using this also for Python...

Available here:

http://www.activestate.com/komodo-edit

Have you tried that one RobynsVeil? 

;-)

Um no, I haven't ... come to think of it, I remember someone else mentioning that to me. Trying to remember what I did next. :blink:

I'll have a go - thanks for that, MC!

As I understand it, DSON is the file format used by DSF (and later DUF, for user files) - so since the Genesis DSF files hold everything except textures, which are linked jpgs and so on in the usual manner, a DSON importer for Poser would be stand-alone. Of course it wouldn't resolve all of the issues (SubD vs Polygon Smoothing) but to the extent that those can be worked around or resolved it would make native content available in Poser 9+. (I don't know if a Python script in Poser can call additional libraries, since I assume there's no built-in JSON reader and writing one from scratch would be an extra level of pain.)

still a pointless exercise, one still has to install and use DS4, to get a crippled low res figure into Poser.

DSON is a waste of programmers time, as NONE of the big apps are likely to adopt it in anyway.

It does seem that, even if possible, there would be a great deal of effort required to get Genesis into Poser and to what end.  If Genesis is indeed better, I say if as I have seen nothing yet to suggest this a massive improvement, I doubt the effort would be worthwhile.

For most hobbists this would be beyond their skill set, even if they wanted to, and it seems the people in the know professionally can't see a need either.  That would leave it to a very small section of people to attempt it just as a challange while most would prefer to render with what is available for Poser without all the fuss.

Quote - (I don't know if a Python script in Poser can call additional libraries, since I assume there's no built-in JSON reader and writing one from scratch would be an extra level of pain.)

A JSON reader/writer comes with Poser as part of the standard Python distribution. Also, with ctypes one can call functions in any C DLL.

The problem is that we are looking at Genesis from the outside.  We do not have an emotional investment in Genesis.  Looking for rationality from DAZ over Genesis is a waste of time.

DAZ has a very heavy emotional involvement in Genesis & they are not about to let a little thing like marketplace failure intrude into their world-view.  DAZ is building a walled garden for the "load - conform - make-art" crowd.  It will be interesting to see what happens if the "new" website actually moves to an app store the way DAZ_Rand was talking about last Christmas.

Look at the behavior of DAZ overall.  At no time will they EVER admit to having made a mistake.  They don't want input from their customers - they want validation of their decisions.  Why else would they ask for customer input 1 week before they release a major piece of software.

The 30 day money back guarantee isn't about customer service, it is simply easier to give money back than to fix a problem.

Genesis is a solution to problems that have already been solved in the Poserverse.

Quote - The problem is that we are looking at Genesis from the outside.  We do not have an emotional investment in Genesis.  Looking for rationality from DAZ over Genesis is a waste of time.

DAZ has a very heavy emotional involvement in Genesis & they are not about to let a little thing like marketplace failure intrude into their world-view.  DAZ is building a walled garden for the "load - conform - make-art" crowd.  It will be interesting to see what happens if the "new" website actually moves to an app store the way DAZ_Rand was talking about last Christmas.

Look at the behavior of DAZ overall.  At no time will they EVER admit to having made a mistake.  They don't want input from their customers - they want validation of their decisions.  Why else would they ask for customer input 1 week before they release a major piece of software.

The 30 day money back guarantee isn't about customer service, it is simply easier to give money back than to fix a problem.

Genesis is a solution to problems that have already been solved in the Poserverse.

 

Well said!  DAZ wants to re-invent an existing wheel and then wonders why no one jumps on their bandwagon!

Here's the first clue why - unfinished, buggy software with no user manual.  There is a history there.

Time to take another look at this.

All the best.

LROG

I just wonder if all this happen over at the DAZ forums when the new Poser figures appear???

So, X amount of characters cannot be used in X program.

Big deal, it's not like it's important.

All  the best.

LROG

Quote - > Quote - (I don't know if a Python script in Poser can call additional libraries, since I assume there's no built-in JSON reader and writing one from scratch would be an extra level of pain.)

A JSON reader/writer comes with Poser as part of the standard Python distribution. Also, with ctypes one can call functions in any C DLL.

I wouldn't have thought that reading in the information from this DSON file would be any kind of major issue, if it is just a JSON variant, reading in text-based data itself is fairly trivial...

But I've read a bit more now and I'm thinking that, in terms of Genesis, unless the DSON file had, embedded inside it, an already subdivided genesis obj model file... I can't see how it's going to provide any more utility than the Daz Studio CR2 exporter already does...?

If that DSON file is going to be just a scene inventory... then I guess your plugin or importer would still need to read in those proprietary Daz Studio dsf asset files, do some on the fly catmull-clark subivision (don't know if there's a Python library for that) and then transpose the weight-mapping data....??? For starters...

Hmmm...

Well, it may well be possible, to do some external scripting of Blender, relative to the catmull-clark stuff? That might be an idea for anyone reading this a year from now, if writing a plugin looks like it could be a goer?

;-)

It may well be possible to make Genesis work on Poser with a lot of work.  My question is, if I have something like Microsoft word that has templates to be able to write a business letter why would I spend time trying to make templates from another word processor program work in Miocrosoft word so that I could............err.... write business letters.

I accept that I am looking at Genesis from the outside because I am a Poser user and this is a Poser Forum.  I have nothing against Daz or Genesis the fact is I have yet to see, I emphasis the see, why I need it.  Even if it did work in Poser, out of the box, I would still need to be convinced any expense would be justified.

Quote - Good choices as well, Monkey!

I had obviously blanked the following track from my mind earlier, when I suggested those other tracks by Phil C and band... as the YouTube comments state it caused some controversy on its release and was subsequently swept under the carpet somewhat by the band... apparently...

(language advisory due to some... indeed many... of the YouTube comments)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_61hzuGGJX0

"DSON is a waste of programmers time, as NONE of the big apps are likely to adopt it in anyway."

That is because NO ONE from the Community of professional 3D, Hollywood film VFX or game Dev artist, actually needs genesis as their proven tools &Pipelines from Autodesk,SideFX etc are more than capable of producing any morphing multi-character effect "genesis can produce.

I continue to be amazed at DAz's utter refusal to see this fact.

The only reason a professional user of the Autodesk Suite (Max Maya Softimage) or SideFX Houdini ,
would ever use a biped humanoid Figure in their
workflow is to ANIMATE IT!!.

For an animated movie
A CG Stunt double
or for a Game title.

Even Assuming I had A plugin to get a fully functional genesis into Maya or Max with Autofit CC subD etc....well ...so what!!

Am I just going to pose it & render some Sexy V5 or Hunky M5 shots with my $3500+ program and post them in my online user profile gallery , as DAz seems to think everyone aspires to do.

No I still will need(>>link PROPER ANIMATION RIGGING
to take advantage of the high end animation tools in my high end pipeline.

so that I can actually do project specific characters&creatures for "Lord of the Rings "or the "Avengers"

Why on earth would a professional Houdini artist bother to bring in a genesis mesh from some "DSON"importer When he should be building one properly animation rigged Character from scratch in  his program as they all do for each & every paying client project.?

Cheers

Great video on that link Wolf - thanks - I have no sound on this system... is that Houdini?

I see they have a free apprentice edition too... and a $99 "Starving Artist" edition. Good stuff ;-)

"Great video on that link Wolf - thanks - I have no sound on this system... is that Houdini?"

Actually Sir that is an example of a really good maya rig for professional animation.

Indeed those controllers are Awesome!!!

Cheers

Ah, very nice... you'd hope it would be of course for the kind of money we're talking there ;-)

Quote - > Quote - (I don't know if a Python script in Poser can call additional libraries, since I assume there's no built-in JSON reader and writing one from scratch would be an extra level of pain.)

A JSON reader/writer comes with Poser as part of the standard Python distribution. Also, with ctypes one can call functions in any C DLL.

Thank you.

Quote - If that DSON file is going to be just a scene inventory... then I guess your plugin or importer would still need to read in those proprietary Daz Studio dsf asset files, do some on the fly catmull-clark subivision (don't know if there's a Python library for that) and then transpose the weight-mapping data....??? For starters...

The DSF file is, as I understand it, a DSON file - if you have access to one you will see that it contains the geometry, rigging and morph data. You are, however , right that there would remain functional obstacles in the form of Catmull-Clark SubD and smoothing and collision detection modifiers which would be needed by a fairly high proportion of content and are not available in Poser actively (though Stewer's comment about calling a DLL function does offer one ray of hope there), and UV switching, which I've no doubt could be handled via a Python script.

Quote - About my only gripe with Python is I haven't found a really good IDE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_SDK

Eclipse will run on anything that can run Java, and SDKs are available for many languages including Python.

Komodo works fine as well.

Quote - Why on earth would a professional Houdini artist bother to bring in a genesis mesh from some "DSON"importer

They would not waste their time doing so. It would require far to much work to get it to animate properly in an enviroment that accels in animations and physics. Most high end figures use as few morphs as possible and as many bones as needed to replace the morphs.

You rarely see skeletons like this in Poser.....

Quote - You rarely see skeletons like this in Poser.....

Rarely?!? I've never seen one like that since 1998!

Quote - The problem is that we are looking at Genesis from the outside.  We do not have an emotional investment in Genesis. 

So, err, why all the threads with that topic, and why are all the same characters giving their $0.02 in those threads?

Quote - Genesis is a solution to problems that have already been solved in the Poserverse.

If that were true, then why all the sniping and yammering over it? By the same people? You'd think that if there are alternate solutions, folks would happily be using them and enjoying them - and not in here, griping, carping, and sniping about it.

I think daz do make really nice looking figures.  I would be happy if genesis worked well in poser.

Love esther

I dont see throng of ' the same people'  'clammouring for it to work' in poser.  I see a thread pop up once in a while, often for no other reason that someone has a legitimate question or is posting news.   I see the same people from both sides dumping in their two cents..

on the poser side those usually arent voices that are just dying for it to work.  Their voices are generally speaking against a couple of things.  1. the longstanding belief that only daz can or should supply figures for poser.  and 2. pushing back against Daz intended tactic of using genesis to damage posers success.    This is the poser forum. a lot of us here really like poser.   It shouldnt be a surprise that we will speak of its strengths, and state, whenever it is brought up, why we dont see DS only competitive advantage against poser, genesis, as being all that compelling all things considered.  

Just because we take some time to contest an opinion or statement in the forum doesn't mean we arent spending our time working with, using and developing for some of the great things that poser, and the poser community, brings to the table

Sorry if our willingness to speak our mind flys against the hope that all poser users will just pack it in and settle for the second rate renders of our M5/V4/Anubis/troll Hybrid that DS is capable of

Quote - > Quote - The problem is that we are looking at Genesis from the outside.  We do not have an emotional investment in Genesis. 

So, err, why all the threads with that topic, and why are all the same characters giving their $0.02 in those threads?

Quote - Genesis is a solution to problems that have already been solved in the Poserverse.

If that were true, then why all the sniping and yammering over it? By the same people? You'd think that if there are alternate solutions, folks would happily be using them and enjoying them - and not in here, griping, carping, and sniping about it.

The heart of my post - albeit badly eloquent - is this...

Poser 9/2012 is not selling well. No?

Any DAZ Platinum member who doesn't use Genesis is spending thousands less than they would have.

Look in the Renderosity marketplace. What are they selling? How few genesis products?

This tells you

a) Genesis is totally reliant on a few long-term buyers and a ton of brand new DS4 user buyers... they hope

b) Poser now more than ever needs a Posette because they have NO... Z E R O... characters to sustain their sales.

How many Anastasia products were added this week in the renderosity marketplace?... a marketplace that is also supporting pretty much no Genesis products?

The focus on weight maps and high end lighting screwed Poser out of long-term sales because it depends solely on the sales of Vicki4 that has been out for over 4 years and whose market is saturated.

Smith-Micro's approach depended on a Vicki5 that had the exact same approach as Vicki 1, 2 ,3 and 4... they assumd it would be useable in Poser.

I have no clue what DAZ was assuming - they fucked up completely.

So... my thinking was

A year from now... what does this mean for this entire market?

Quote - > Quote - The problem is that we are looking at Genesis from the outside.  We do not have an emotional investment in Genesis. 

So, err, why all the threads with that topic, and why are all the same characters giving their $0.02 in those threads?

Quote - Genesis is a solution to problems that have already been solved in the Poserverse.

If that were true, then why all the sniping and yammering over it? By the same people? You'd think that if there are alternate solutions, folks would happily be using them and enjoying them - and not in here, griping, carping, and sniping about it.

It is always the same people. The same 4 or 5 people.

The rest -- whose number is clearly a bit higher than that -- are indeed happily using whatever solutions they've found and enjoying the results.

I agree wholeheartedly with Esther.  Daz does make nice figures.  Too bad the latest don't work in Poser at this time.  This has not stopped me from rendering.  I read the forums here when I have one cooking.

Quote - The heart of my post - albeit badly eloquent - is this...

Poser 9/2012 is not selling well. No?

*erm no. it's been stated that it's selling well. eg Baggins saying Amazon sold out of their order and then ordering in more. there's a lot of misinformation going around by all parties in the Poser Wars, but I think we can trust Baggins... *

Poser has always depended on Vickis to sell more Poser units.

Now it depends on weight maps and great lighting...     alone?

Who should doubt Baggins?

Have you actually looked at the marketplaces? What they're selling?

Quote - > Quote - The heart of my post - albeit badly eloquent - is this...

Poser 9/2012 is not selling well. No?

 *erm no. it's been stated that it's selling well. eg Baggins saying Amazon sold out of their order and then ordering in more. there's a lot of misinformation going around by all parties in the Poser Wars, but I think we can trust Baggins... *

I found Poser 8 via Amazon, from cold, with no prior knowledge of it. I bought Poser 9 on pre-order from there, after checking the specs at SM's Poser website.

I only became aware that there was a relatively new version of Carrara after placing my Poser order.

I had no knowlege of Daz Studio until after I had Poser and then discovering that the V4 and M4 figures were widely used (and had a lot of content) and were available from Daz.

How does that stack up commercially or in terms of sales flow... who knows? I sure don't...

I know that it does equate to the fact that I've invested in Poser prior to knowing of the new Daz figure, or understanding that it had been made in a way that isn't currently useable for me, within Poser. So, therefore, I'm just not likely to use it much for now.

Sure, I got the base parts for free, and I'll probably look at that, in its box, from time to time... for now. Keep an eye out for any interesting developments. Any additional choice of useable toolset is welcome...

But, whatever, I seem to have plenty other choices in terms of figure models... and apparently more on the way that are going to be optimised for the latest features in the version of Poser I have.

Am I in any way a typical new user / customer, no idea either... but probably, on some fronts at least.

My perception is that Poser had a very good, high profile product placement on Amazon around the point of the new version release... and still seems to several months later. Anyway... shrugs

Having read a little more, has anyone, maybe slightly more technical, who is actually interested in using Genesis in Poser, and has Poser 2012, tried using the free, standalone Autodesk FBX converter to take an FXB export from DS4, convert it to COLLADA, and then import that to Poser?

http://download.autodesk.com/us/fbx/2013/FBXconverter/index.html

http://usa.autodesk.com/fbx/download/

Apologies if this has already been covered off here, and I just haven't picked up on it...

EDIT: Is this back to the issue of subdivision, primarily?

Well, here are the facts as I see them: I did more than I'm obliged and tried DS4 and Genny when it came out - even as I had no intentions of ever using the program past my initial curiosity. I even exported a figure so that I could use it, statically, in Poser. What I've found is, unless I spend hundreds of dollars, Genny looked a WHOLE lot like Vicky 4 and I already have her. And in spending those hundreds of dollars, I'd still have to do backflips and jump thru hoops just to use those figures in Poser. Think back on the messes that are the Gen 4 figures. Yeah, they're popular, but they sure are a pain in the ass to use. One of the most asked questions in the forums still is "I installed Vicky and her morphs and they aren't working". I was already sick of the version 4s long before Genny came out. Truth is this is a hobby for me. If at any point it's too much of a goddamn hassle for me just to render something in it is the day I leave it behind. And I'm positive I'm not the only one here feels the exact same way. It's not my only hobby.

edit: I wanted to add one more thing. I've not seen anything so far - absolutely nothing - that impresses me so much I feel like I have to have Genesis. Some of the stuff I've seen even looks somewhat toony compared the the gen 4's. It really hasn't done anything yet to make me say "Hmm...I HAVE to have that."

Laurie

Yep, Like I wrote in the stone age:

User friendly should be high on any apps "todo" list.
1% are the experts
9% are the "we will do it"
90 % are hobby users.

You want to build a 3D app for the experts?
For the "we"ll get there in the end?"
Or for the hobby users.

Any 3D app should be as user frindly as possible, and that workflow should include the whole process; Modeling, texturing, posing, morphing, rendering.

ANy time some script surfaces, the team should see it as a flaw in the app.
If the app was complete, there would be no need for the script in the first place.

Quote - Poser has always depended on Vickis to sell more Poser units.

Now it depends on weight maps and great lighting...     alone?

Who should doubt Baggins?

Have you actually looked at the marketplaces? What they're selling?

erm. I just said what what Baggin's said about units moved. thats all. read what you want into that. I'm not interested in arguing.. just stating what was said.

"ANy time some script surfaces, the team should see it as a flaw in the app.
If the app was complete, there would be no need for the script in the first place."

Well I am of the Opinion that any app that has an accessible scripting language  open to the user community is a good thing.
 
Frankly that is what has made blender the powerhouse that it is today.

The user community adding features& capabilities.

Not some narrow minded company programmer imposing hard coded limitations
on what the app can do in each release

Were it not for scripting(Python),
to this day I doubt poser would be capable of doing
THIS

Cheers

Quote - "ANy time some script surfaces, the team should see it as a flaw in the app.
If the app was complete, there would be no need for the script in the first place."

Well I am of the Opinion that any app that has an accessible scripting language  open to the user community is a good thing.
 
Frankly that is what has made blender the powerhouse that it is today.

The user community adding features& capabilities.

Not some narrow minded company programmer imposing hard coded limitations
on what the app can do in each release

Were it not for scripting(Python),
to this day I doubt poser would be capable of doing
THIS

Cheers

He he. Awesome bits of physics stuff demo'd there Wolf.

The segment at the end where the muscle clad guy turns round and demolishes his own house. LOL :-)

Is that PoserPhysics in action? Or something else?

I'd definitely agree with you... most of the 3d apps I use (Poser, Vue, Blender) seem to have python extensibility... and as I understand it higher end ones like Maya do too?

I don't know if there's any history of Poser's developers eventually encompassing user community innovations into the core program... they certainly bundle a variety of scripts... but the extensibility is surely key to fosteering this innovation and thereby expanding the appeal and usability of the app.

Quote - I dont see throng of ' the same people'  'clammouring for it to work' in poser.  I see a thread pop up once in a while, often for no other reason that someone has a legitimate question or is posting news.   I see the same people from both sides dumping in their two cents..

I agree - the same characters aren't saying they want it to work in Poser, but it seems to be the goal for them.

Quote - Their voices are generally speaking against a couple of things.  1. the longstanding belief that only daz can or should supply figures for poser.  and 2. pushing back against Daz intended tactic of using genesis to damage posers success.

I'm thinking similar, but the tactic is long-term survival, not intentionally damaging some other product's success.

Honestly, competition is a good thing, and for two reasons:

1. it keeps all parties on their toes, driving innovation and improvement, which we customers benefit from, and

2. in this market, it serves as a safety, in case one or the other collapses or dies. 

OTOH, it still doesn't explain why we get someone claiming long and loud that they have no need for something, and yet in every topic where that something is dicussed, there they are.

Seriously, I don't hang around in topics that discuss Poser shaders because I don't use 'em outside of Poser, even though it is nifty and would be kinda cool. Even more, I damned sure don't bag on Baggins for making Poser-only stuff, nor do I ascribe motives to him or anysuch. 

Quote - Well I am of the Opinion that any app that has an accessible scripting language  open to the user community is a good thing.
 
Frankly that is what has made blender the powerhouse that it is today.

The user community adding features& capabilities.

Not some narrow minded company programmer imposing hard coded limitations
on what the app can do in each release

Were it not for scripting(Python),
to this day I doubt poser would be capable of doing
THIS

Cheers

Quoted for complete agreement. 

"Is that PoserPhysics in action? Or something else?"

Hi indeed that is poser physics  running in good old Poser 6
Here is a another example clip demonstrating an undocumented "Exploding prop" Feature that I actually discovered in poser physics
EXPLOSIONS

Cheers

The focus on weight maps and high end lighting screwed Poser out of long-term sales because it depends solely on the sales of Vicki4 that has been out for over 4 years and whose market is saturated.

Smith-Micro's approach depended on a Vicki5 that had the exact same approach as Vicki 1, 2 ,3 and 4... they assumd it would be useable in Poser.

 So... my thinking was

 A year from now... what does this mean for this entire market?

A year from now I have no idea on what I will be spending my money on.  Last year I spent a lot at Daz but towards the end I stopped my PC membership and now spend very little.  I had no trouble spending filling my shopping cart here for over $75 to claim my prime money off voucher.  That included a a few scenes, a few tutorials and other orders included stuff for V4 as I have used her so much more in her V4VM form. 

So a year from now, who knows, accept I doubt very much I will be using any new Daz figure.  I bet I am still spending on Poser though, somewhere - assuming I live that long.