Diffrent app's have there rules.

So what's the rules for Pro 14 characters ?

With Weight maps are magnets still used ?

I'm rather confident that Pro 14 would be cool with a 32,000 polycount displacement map ?
would Pro 14 be cool with a 128,000 .512,000 .2,048,000 polycount displacement map ?
How high of a polycount can a displacment map be ?

Thanks

Weight mapping, YES.
Add bulge mapping if you need it.

Magnets : personally, I hate them in figures. Magnets belong in a hardware store.

Displacement maps have no polygons, they have pixels.

Poser supports : For each material zone and For all textures :
(Diffuse, bump, specular, normal or Displacement maps)
512x512
1024x1024
2048x2046
4096x4096 
8192x8192
size maps (just to stay in the power of 2)

I don't understand what you mean" poser supports map sizes in the power of 2. I've used 1000x1000 , 2000x2000, etc. with no problem.

@RedPhantom:  Yes, you can use odd sized images.  However, Poser sets aside a memory block for that image map based on integer^2.  This means that a 1000x1000 map occupies a 1024x1024 block, and a 2000x2000 map takes up a 2048x2048 block.

     The examples you gave don't waste much space.  But consider what happens if you slightly exceed an integer^2 value:    a 1030x1025 map hogs up a 2048x2048 memory block.

     So, I would say try to make maps match or be a little under those landmark integer^2 values.  They don't need to be an exact power of two, but for efficient memory use, avoid going over an integer^2 value.

     There will be occasions when the best resolution map you can compose is in between integer powers, and so be it - no big deal.  But generally, aim for an integer power of two or slightly under.

Correct seachnasaigh, a very clear answer.

And I just noticed a typo in my own message/
It should read 2048x2048 not 2048x2046

Basically you can use any texture size, but you are throwing memory away and slowing Poser down.

Stick to the standard is good practice and memory friendly.

Texture size is just like poly count. Bigger is better, but at what cost?

I work in different texture sizes and those sizes depend on the detail required for that particular material zone.
Each texture for each material zone, be it diffuse, specular, bump normal or displacement will have to load and all these "cost" memory.

That is also why I use procedural shaders. They cost very little in memory and CPU time. Procedural shaders are very "cost" effective.

PS : All my free stuff here (like these Roman figures) use procedurals. No textures at all.
Even the forest walkers, or the Jacket and Mexican outfits are all procedurals.

     I made a worse typo;  I'm about inclined to ask a mod to correct it.  The size of image map memory blocks are in the form 2^integer.

Good point that there maps.

Normal Maps do not add polygons in zBrush & C4D
but
Displacement Maps do add polygons in zBrush & C4D

If Displacement Maps do not add polygons in Poser.
Then wouldn't that just be a Bump Map ?

512 * 512 = 262,144 pixels .
So a 512 by 512 displacement map would hold 262,144 polygons.
Is that how you would figure displacement maps poly count ?

64 * 64 = 4,096
128 * 128 = 16,384
256 * 256 = 65,536
512 * 512 = 262,144
1024 * 1024 = 1,048,576
2048 * 2048 = 4,194,304
4096 * 4096 = 16,777,216
8192 * 8192 = 67,108,864

Can a Poser mesh have a 4096 by 4096 texture size & a 512 by 512 displacement map on it ?

Can poser use a 8192 by 8192 texture size ?
What's the biggest texture size poser can go ?

     No, RorrKonn, Poser doesn't add polys -no change to the mesh- when using displacement, not on a poly-per-pixel basis.  Firefly temporarily creates micropolys for its own internal calculations of displacement.

     Yes, a single material can use maps of different pixel dimensions simultaneously.

     Qualified yes on the 8192 map;  current versions of Poser can use 8192x8192, but earlier versions are limited to 4096, if I remember correctly (correction welcome).  I can't remember if P9/Pro2012 could use 8192, but certainly Pro2014 can.

     And you can cheat to exceed that;  My envirodomes commonly are divided into four material zone quadrants to give me four times the resolution capacity.  You don't see it;  they're seamless transitions.  I use my rack-mount blades to network render those massive panos in Vue with spiffy atmospheres and high quality settings.

Bump and normal maps "fake 3D".
They are fake and "simulate 3D" without actually doing anything at all in 3D space.

A displacement map actually displaces its pixels as micro polygons.

In Poser, this displacment map is only calculated at render time.
You see nothing untill after the render has finished.

A 4096 * 4096 displacement map = brings  16,777,216 micro polygons at render time.

And this can be done for each and every material zone.

Yes you can mix sizes.
You can use a 4096x4096 diffuse map, AND a 2048x2048 bump map, AND a 1048x1048 specular map, AND an 512x512 normal map on the same material zone.

YES, Poser can handle 8192x8192 maps.

NO, there is NO limit in texture size. But remember !!!!!!!

All maps have to be loaded and memory consumption will go through the roof......

LOL. Count the number of material zones on V4.

Now "fill" each material zone with a 4096x4096 diffuse texture, a 4096x4096 bump map, a 4096x4096 normal map, a 4096x4096 specular map, a 4096x4096 displacement map, and why not, add a 4096x4096 transparancy map just for fun.

And wonder why Poser slows down.... => Then check memory load.

Quote - A 4096 * 4096 displacement map = brings  16,777,216 micro polygons at render time.

This is not entirely correct. It sets a maximum, but you will rarely get anywhere near that. 

Mirco polygons are only calulated to the pixel level, so you will end up with far less than that depending on the size of the render, how much of the UV you can see at once, etc. If a pixel at render time has 20k of those points, it isn't going to do 20k passes, of that pixel.

Yes, exactly and the number of 4096x4096 = 16.777.216 micro polygons  is also incorrect.

Only the pixels that are inside the UV_Map lay-out count.

As with all maps, only the pixels inside the UV_Map-Lay-out actually do something.

A 4096 * 4096 displacement map ,with 16,777,216 micro polygons .
This seems big for Poser.
Poser have any probleams with a map as big as that ?

On Roxie groups & materail zones are the same place ,are they the same thing ?

Do you half to split ya character up in to material zone ?
Can I just have the character skin to have just 1 material zone ?

why would you have a normal & a bump on the same mesh ?

UV_Map-Lay-out means only what's facing the camera ,right ?

For all figures : But let us use Roxie as an example.

Roxie textures can be found in Runtime => Textures => Poser 10 =>  Roxie

Roxie groups can be found in the Hierarchy editor or in the figures properties palette.

Roxie's material zones can be found in the Material room.

MINIMUM Materail room setup.
In this seup I used the minimum required number of material zones.

Body = Includes ALL groups of the head and body including the nails.
=> I use the color diffuse map, loaded at GC 2.2, and let Poser build the displacement and Blinn using procedural setups.

Cornea => You want these to be transparent and use a reflection and some Blinn at GC 1.000

Eyeballs => You want these to load at GC 2.2 and use some secular or Blinn or a combination of both and some relfection.

Lashes => You want the transparancy map of the lashes to load at GC 1.000

Preview = a Poser requirement.

For a full body figure, this is the minimum number of material zones required.

There are a lot more groups, but most groups can be combined in single material zone; Body in this example.

I also combined material zones together to get to this minimum required setup.
Pupils, iris, and eyes get combined into "Eyeballs" for example.

PS : I use Blender to do all these modifications.

Quote :  UV_Map-Lay-out means only what's facing the camera ,right ?

NO!
A UV-Map is the unwrapped object file and tells the faces of the object file what part of the texture corresponds to what face on the object file.

You really should do some 3D homework. LOL.

Reducing and combining material zones makes material room work a walk in the park.

It is the first thing I do on ALL new figures => Reduce the number of material zones.

It is unbelievable what some come up with.

Best regards, Tony

From my example you also see that I ONLY use the diffuse texture.

I let Poser build all the rest internally.
(Displacement and Alternate specular are build internally and "cost" nothing).

Here another example of ONLY using the Diffuse texture and let Poser build Displacement and add some glossy.

These are the figures from above but rendered.

They use the same texture, but different material room setups.
Costing almost nothing extra at render time.

Quote - You really should do some 3D homework. LOL.

This is my Poser homework :)

Very educational thread

Thanks

so a 4096 by 4096 displacement map is cool.

do you half to spit the mesh in to groups ?

Each material zone can have a 4096x4096 displacement map.

For Poser? = YES, you, have to split in groups.

Study a figure, any figure will do. I also think there is an example in the manual.

Also look out for the trap; LOL. The groups have to have the correct internal names.

rCollar is GOOD
Rcollar is a NO-GO

head is GOOD
Head is a NO-GO

and so on

Just for the fun of it; LOL.
Still using the same Diffuse texture. LOL.

Ha-ha-ha-, Morphing is what I like most. LOL.

Re: Materials

Some vendors produce a large number of Lips diffuse textures.  I wonder -  could you get equally acceptable results by using a Bump/displacement map to provide a contour (smooth to crinolinated) and use a node to provide the color?   Save a lot of HD space in textures.

I googled ,but futile.

What's a crinolinated ?

2 questions here so I will answer seperadly.

Bump and displacement maps are geyscale maps loaded at GC 1.000.
If you have the UV-Layout, you can paint them on the UV template.
if you do not have the UV template, you can make one using any 3D app, UVunwrapper, Wings, Blender or other.
Also, you can change the size of the maps at will. Just stay at the standard sizes as mentioned above.

Most figures come with a lip material.
So using a Blender node, you can change the color of the lips seperadly.
Or use the Color_Math node, whatever suits your goal best.

If your figure does not come with a lip material, you can again change the color by painting a second lip diffuse map and use the Blender node to blend them together with the first one.

And YES, you can use a Bump or displacement map to get the contours, or depth in the lips.

Experimenting with Poser is most of all : "Experimenting" and having fun doing so.

     Crinoline is the corrugated/fanfold material often worn under a bell skirt;  the crinoline spaces the skirt out away from the body and gives it that ballroom gown bell shape.

I know vilters likes to set up material zones on a character as simply as possible, but I do not reccomend doing that unless you plan on using the character in another program that requires a small amount of material zones.

If you make the body all one map, adding thing like reflections to the nails requires masks and comlex shader nodes to do so. It also makes it next to impossible to seperate SSS of things like the nails and fingers. Not to mention the face and internal parts of the mouth.

There are plenty of scripts available to make working in the material room far easier. If you have 6 material zones that use the same map you can paste to all of them at the same time. It does not make it much harder than working with a small amount of material zones.

As far as grouping the mesh for body parts, you don't have to do that. But be warned that using a single group mesh requires rather complex rigging. It will have to be entirely weight mapped and every map will list the entire vertex list. IE, it will be a rather large cr2. Single skin also makes selecting body parts in the preview impossible unless a prop is also loaded that allows you to select it. Think breast bones in many characters that do not have geometry, you have to select body parts like that in a pull down menu. Antonia~WM and V4~WM load props so you can select those joints in the preview. It is far easier to just assign the body parts in the mesh and do it that way, but not a requirement. If you want anyone else to use it, assign parts to it.

Magnets on a mesh are personal choice. The idea of magnets started before we had animatable origins. You can use magnets to fake that, or in conjunction with animated centers. Keep in mind that using magnets adds to the complexity, and requires that the magnets affect be copied into anything conformed to it. You can also rig a character entirely with just magnets, but that gets a tad confusing.

Using the diffuse texture to create bump maps works for some things, but not for others. One of them is skin, it does not make for very realistic skin when you do that. For instance, if the creases in the fingers are painted into the textures, they will appear to be very ruff when doing it this way. Another reason to have multiple material zones. Nipples look odd when done that way as well. I use a lot of textures that have tattoo's, and tattoo's are not supposed to bump... If you want decent detail from bump, use a real bump map.

Try to get nipples and skin like this procedurally... Yes it can be done, but it is far easier to just use a bump map and be done with it.

42 material zones on this version of the character, body, face, and bump textures are well above 4kx4k. 2 min render using 20 of 24 cores. Minor postwork to reduce size (about 1/5th the size) and remove artifacts. BB's enviro-dome, 1 infinte, 3 point lights. Selene Hair.

There are shadow catchers (3 of them) to add shadows, the kitchen is on the enviro-dome.

say I have one character mesh face and body morphed in to 6 diffrent characters.

so there's 6 diffrent lokking faces.

I would like to have some 3d facail rigs & exspreations like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4z_RYApUuQ

on the 6 diffrent faces in Pro 14 & usable for the public.

how would you do that  ?

shvrdavid : wicked looking character ,I like the tats among other things ;)

might I humbly suggest some shine in her eyes.

I noticed that I forgot to add the cornea shader, lol.

What figure do you want a facial rig like that for?

& this is Diamonds low poly count version of her and there be other female characters.

The temp high polycount Xenia Hair by 3Dream,Mairy is just for looks for now.

Take a look at PhilC's toolbox.
He has a face putty tool in there.

http://www.philc.net/PoserToolBox.php

Extra info here;

http://www.philc.net/PTB_tutorial3.php

Quote - Take a look at PhilC's toolbox.
He has a face putty tool in there.

http://www.philc.net/PoserToolBox.php

Extra info here;

http://www.philc.net/PTB_tutorial3.php

 

That looks very useful for Pro 14.

any chance there's a DAZ Studio version hiding some where ?