Just my 0.02...

When the site went through a re-design, I hated the new look. I mean, really, really hated it — and said so in the forums, quite pointedly. So did a lot of other folks, and eventually Rosity got the message and cleaned up the front page where it's actually a helluva lot better looking. So yes, folks, they do listen.

As pointed out above, this rule has been in place officially since August, but seems to me it was in place unofficially for a lot longer than that, wit Rosity pretty much turning a blind eye in most cases even though they preferred you really not do it. Apparently enough things happened that they had to turn it into a site rule seven months go. So it's not like this was any kind of surprise thrown out there at the last minute.

Yes, people want to use formats other than zip, but the problem is that most browsers will open zips automatically while things like rars and 7s require an outside utility. Zip is neat and clean and works, so what's the problem?

Now... the big one. Two issue here: (1) Honestly, I dont see a problem with linking to an offsite tutorial.... unless it's going to a site with adult material on it. I know, I know... "the beauty of the female form as celebrated throughout time!" blah blah blah. Dont care, folks. If you're taking me to a site with adult material, and you dont warn me in advance of that, that's a lousy thing to do, period, end of story. (2) If you're running an offsite store at that link, then yes Rosity has the right to deny you that link — you're getting a free platform here and then turn around and exploit it for personal gain elsewhere? That's like going to a bar, having a great time with your friends, and then telling everyone you have beer for sale in your car parked outside. Not cool, period, end of story.

The Prime issue? OK, let's just think about this for a moment. Right now, at this very moment, you have almost three thousand people on this site, a massive gallery that gets filled with new stuff at an alarming rate every minute, and an equally huge store operation. All of this requires some pretty expensive hardware that actually keeps going up in price if you want to stay on top of things... not to mention the no-doubt increased costs in net security to keep this place as virus free as possible. I'm sorry, how do you propose Rosity pay for all this? They're not going to charge a membership fee, so what are your proposals?

The virus issue... someone up in the thread wrote "We are on the internet a lot and should know how to protect ourselves" — well, see, the operative word is "should". A lot of people dont. Now imagine the uproar if someone puts in a link that goes to a site that has malware on it. You think folks arent going to blame Rosity for that? Dream on, folks. Of course they are: "You should have told us! You should have known!" That's happened before, so can you really blame them for wanting to err on the side of caution?

I may have my issues with this place on occasion, but by and large this is a pretty amazing place. The very fact that it exists at all with as minimal a staff as it has is nothing short of a freaking miracle... and you guys are upset because they're trying to do things that ensure the place hangs around for a while longer? Maybe I"m missing a few things here, but I seriously feel the outrage here is somewhat misguided.

Again, just my 0.02. Do with it what you will.

On the Prime issue I am afraid you have not understood. I was for the changes to Prime initially but the way it was implemented and the contempt with which the customers were treated was not acceptable. Throwing the vendors under a bus was clearly wrong and cannot be justified in any way, let alone with 'we needed the money'. Many feel they were robbed by Renderosity, claiming that it cost to run a site is not going to lay easier with any of them. Finally, if they really do need to save money they could employ a web designer who knows what he is doing, getting it right first time is cheaper than constantly playing.

Yanno, I don't NEED Rendo to protect me from other links to other sites because I can do that myself AND I won't BLAME Rendo if I get a virus from another site. Simple as that. It's my OWN responsibility to protect myself from outside threats - no one else's. I quit needing a babysitter a LOOOONG time ago, thank you.

What I DO need from the site is a site search that works, ebots that work, MP categories that don't need a cheat sheet to understand what they mean, a WYSIWYG editor for posting like every OTHER site rather than stupid, idiotic markup language...THAT'S what I need.

Laurie

SeanMartin posted at 9:36PM Thu, 25 February 2016 - #4257367

Just my 0.02...

Thank you. Your evaluation of its worth matches mine very closely.

Malysse posted at 9:45PM Thu, 25 February 2016 - #4257474

SeanMartin posted at 9:36PM Thu, 25 February 2016 - #4257367

Just my 0.02...

Thank you. Your evaluation of its worth matches mine very closely.

I must say I thought that Sean made some very valid points. I personally have no problems with the new site and I can quite understand why some things have been done the way they were. I imagine I'm not alone in that either - you know what they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
One feature that I really liked has already been removed because it didn't suit some peoples idea of how the site should function according to them. never mind if anyone else found it useful but I digress

and you guys are upset because they're trying to do things that ensure the place hangs around for a while longer?

We are upset because they AREN'T. Their current meager discounts and Prime neutering has eliminated any semblance of marketing advantage over the competition. People consider Daz and Hivewire (and formerly, RDNA) to all have much better deals. In short, Renderosity is no longer competitive with other sites in the sales and web design categories. If people can get exponentially better deals at other sites, then they will spend their limited monthly allotment of cash reserved for 3D sites somewhere else. Prime was once considered by many here to be superior to Daz's Platinum Club despite the steep price, but no longer.
If Prime had to change like Platinum Club did a few years back, then the changes should have been minor. The changes at DAZ were pretty minor-- prices increased up to 2.5x what they were before, but backlog remained the same. Fewer sales included additional discounts for Platinum Club members for non-Daz originals. Nonetheless, PC is still a steal at the price it is, and no additional attempts were made to push people to join PC. (They did make those dumb "get x discount if you buy x" however-- though in their defense, they have greatly simplified those sale stipulations since last December because customers found it much too confusing and/or too much to keep track of. Though time will tell if they continue that policy when March Madness begins.)

In comparison, Hivewire3D's sales aren't usually that generous, but they are combined with rewards points and the ability to customize the product bundles-- a feature which no other major MP has.

The virus issue... someone up in the thread wrote "We are on the internet a lot and should know how to protect ourselves" — well, see, the operative word is "should". A lot of people dont. Now imagine the uproar if someone puts in a link that goes to a site that has malware on it. You think folks arent going to blame Rosity for that? Dream on, folks. Of course they are: "You should have told us! You should have known!" That's happened before, so can you really blame them for wanting to err on the side of caution?

I think you are correct about very few things here, meaning that Renderosity as you say should be active in removing any links with virus, malware etc from their site when they find or notice them. But i think you are misunderstanding the effect of this rule and why your view can actually be harmful for you. If you think that this will improve your security when browsing Renderosity you are doing so under a false impression of security, which can be very dangerous, if you dont want to get a virus.

So I would strongly advise you and anyone else thinking this way to rethink it, if you want to avoid these things, because this rule will do nothing in preventing you from the risk of getting a virus/malware and so forth from a link!!

If you want to protect yourself against viruses you need a virus protection software. There are free and very good ones available on the internet.

AVG - www.avg.com

Avast - www.avast.com

If you prefer better protection you either buy a license from one of these or one of the other companies that develop software designed to remove and prevent viruses.

If a person want to spread virus here on Renderosity, simply telling them to not do it, will not prevent it. Such person will post a link regardless of what Renderosity think and if they don't remove it fast enough or even prevent people from posting links in the first place, someone might click it and risk getting a virus if you don't use some software to protect yourself.

Also remember that Renderosity is only removing links to people that create freebie items, so a person wanting to spread a virus can simply post the link with a different topic.

People creating viruses, malware etc. and spread them are not stupid people and they very well know how to use a computer, the internet, forums and ways to spread these thing. There is a reason why there are so many companies develop software to remove these things, if it were a matter of simply telling those making them not to, then all these companies would be out of business.

Besides Renderosity making this rule in the first place, which was a mistake overall. Im really worried to see anyone actually believing this will help protect them against these things, because that is a serious problem.

So again and i STRESS it, if you want to be protected against these things get some virus protection software and don't trust any links on the internet, just because someone say they believe they are save.

SeanMartin posted at 4:14PM Thu, 25 February 2016 - #4257367

Just my 0.02...

When the site went through a re-design, I hated the new look. I mean, really, really hated it — and said so in the forums, quite pointedly. So did a lot of other folks, and eventually Rosity got the message and cleaned up the front page where it's actually a helluva lot better looking. So yes, folks, they do listen.

The Prime issue? OK, let's just think about this for a moment. Right now, at this very moment, you have almost three thousand people on this site, a massive gallery that gets filled with new stuff at an alarming rate every minute, and an equally huge store operation. All of this requires some pretty expensive hardware that actually keeps going up in price if you want to stay on top of things... not to mention the no-doubt increased costs in net security to keep this place as virus free as possible. I'm sorry, how do you propose Rosity pay for all this? They're not going to charge a membership fee, so what are your proposals?

The virus issue... someone up in the thread wrote "We are on the internet a lot and should know how to protect ourselves" — well, see, the operative word is "should". A lot of people dont. Now imagine the uproar if someone puts in a link that goes to a site that has malware on it. You think folks arent going to blame Rosity for that? Dream on, folks. Of course they are: "You should have told us! You should have known!" That's happened before, so can you really blame them for wanting to err on the side of caution?

Maybe I"m missing a few things here, but I seriously feel the outrage here is somewhat misguided.

The site design visually is ok for me...took getting used to the bigger thumbs, but everybody's going bigger, so whatever, I got used to it. However, it's extremely slooow to load. I have the updated version of Firefox for my browser. Every other site I go to loads quickly. Renderosity is the only one that takes forever to load. I do not like waiting minutes upon minutes just to look over what's new or for a product page to load. Sometimes, I just don't have the patience and I close Rendo altogether. That equates to lost sales for them. Whatever is making the site run so slowly, they need to fix.

The internet has been around for a long time. My kids know about viruses and how to stay protected. It's up to the individual to protect themselves from viruses. Of course the site should protect itself from malware and hacks...but to get rid of outside links entirely is a bit too much.

And Prime is a disaster. Instead of leaving the legacy products at $3.50, almost everything jumped up in price. Some vendors pulled their products from Prime completely with no warning. I had a few DM Prime products in my wishlist to get whenever. Yeah, I now won't be getting them anytime soon...not at full price, not when they were created for Prime. There are rarely any good coupons anymore for Prime. The money it costs to keep a Prime membership is no longer worth having it. Not to mention Rendo throwing the vendors under the bus when confronted about the sudden product price increases when it was Rendo who caused the uproar. Yeah, they may be hurting for money, but shredding Prime, and AFTER many people already upgraded too, was one of the worst ideas this store has had.

I feel these concerns that are being voiced are justified. Obviously people aren't spending the money here, as Rendo is in panic mode. But instead of working WITH the community to figure out a better path for everyone, they are working against us at every turn.

3D-Mobster posted at 7:50PM Thu, 25 February 2016 - #4257482

Also remember that Renderosity is only removing links to people that create freebie items, so a person wanting to spread a virus can simply post the link with a different topic.

Um, No. It is all off-site linking to competitive sites. Not just in the free section but also in signatures & posts, so if you have a link your signature expect a message as soon as we can get to it. Additionally, offsite linking to other marketplaces or freestuff sites are not allowed within the forum, gallery, or forum signatures. For example: Links to competing stores like Daz3d.com, RuntimeDNA.com, etc are not allowed. However, links to non-competing stores like Etsy.com or Ebay.com are acceptable.

And please don't shoot the messengers. We're just doing our jobs by following the rules. Please & thank you.

EDITED TO ADD THIS: My apologies for the confusion originally. It is NOT all off-site linking. As clarified by LPR in this comment. https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2899790&page_number=3#msg4257977

Malysse posted at 10:25PM Thu, 25 February 2016 - #4257474

SeanMartin posted at 9:36PM Thu, 25 February 2016 - #4257367

Just my 0.02...

Thank you. Your evaluation of its worth matches mine very closely.

Duly noted. And not surprised.

This is so sad. First we lose RDNA and now all this is happening here... Seems like it's the beginning of a mass exodus just when we need a safe place to hangout after RDNA's demise. Where will everyone go? Certainly not back to DAZ, they were the ones who invented deleting posts they didn't like and banning... I'm shocked to hear about 3D-Arena being banned! Banning a major vendor just for stating her opinion? So many people leaving and I don't understand why the powers that be aren't listening, it seems they are just shooting themselves in the foot...

I doubt it's the fault of the admins, I'm guessing they are just doing what they are told, but maybe if they banded together and told whoever is making all these bad decisions that the customers, vendors, and freebie creators are all leaving, something has to be changed, obviously things are moving in the wrong direction... What about maybe hiring some of the long time vendors or customers as staff instead of chasing them away? Just a thought. The Poser community is totally falling apart right now and Renderosity could save it or be part of its demise. Or maybe someone else will take over, a new community, maybe just a forum site with no store, where people could discuss art, software and post images and freebies without admins, without a TOS, on a personal blog site? Maybe just have admins to remove spammers or those who are truly hostile, not a vendor making a valid point that both customers and vendors agreed with... But if everyone is angry at Renderosity, they won't be buying which will be the closure of another once great site.

I hate what happened with Prime, the new freebie laws and the new sales with just three hours to buy from rotating vendors which has led me to buy nothing this month because I have a life and can't keep up with these time limited sales with hours in another time zone, but what I hate most is the banning of a vendor who just stated her opinion. This is the United States and there is a law called Freedom of Speech and I'm just appalled at what happened.

This is the first month in a long time that I haven't spent enough for render awards and the first month in years that I didn't spend a single penny at Renderosiry, partially due to the annoying timed sales and overpriced Prime items but also due in part to the fact that most new products are for G3 and I do hope the vendors remember that there are still a lot of Poser users, but that's another subject.

Please bring 3D-Arena back, fix Prime, allow links in the freebie section, apologize to all the longtime customers and vendors, go back to the big coupons combining with sales and I bet you will see a huge financial benefit because when the customers are happy, they will spend more, and if they stay on your forums and get a sense of community back, and actually like the administration rather than being angry at it, customers will spend more and vendors will not leave for other sites. This seems like a critical time for Renderosity and I hope they choose to save it before it all goes down in flames-- or is also bought out by DAZ, which is maybe what they are hoping for? I really loved it here, before it went so off-track and really hope it can recover and get back to its once glorious self!

Wonderland posted at 9:50PM Thu, 25 February 2016 - #4257540

"This is so sad. First we lose RDNA and now all this is happening here... Seems like it's the beginning of a mass exodus just when we need a safe place to hangout after RDNA's demise. Where will everyone go?"

I signed up with cgbytes.com. Guess who signed up as well? SnarlyGribbly, Bagginsbill, Erogenesis, Laurie. and a few displaced folks from RDNA. When your welcome is overstated, you'll find a new hangout, build a new community. We are a resilient bunch.

JV

JVRenderer posted at 10:13PM Thu, 25 February 2016 - #4257542

Wonderland posted at 9:50PM Thu, 25 February 2016 - #4257540

"This is so sad. First we lose RDNA and now all this is happening here... Seems like it's the beginning of a mass exodus just when we need a safe place to hangout after RDNA's demise. Where will everyone go?"

I signed up with cgbytes.com. Guess who signed up as well? SnarlyGribbly, Bagginsbill, Erogenesis, Laurie. and a few displaced folks from RDNA. When your welcome is overstated, you'll find a new hangout, build a new community. We are a resilient bunch.

JV

Yes, I was reading on the RDNA forums that Project E will be there. I will have to check it out...

SeanMartin posted at 5:45PM Fri, 26 February 2016 - #4257367

Just my 0.02...

When the site went through a re-design, I hated the new look. I mean, really, really hated it — and said so in the forums, quite pointedly. So did a lot of other folks, and eventually Rosity got the message and cleaned up the front page where it's actually a helluva lot better looking. So yes, folks, they do listen.

As pointed out above, this rule has been in place officially since August, but seems to me it was in place unofficially for a lot longer than that, wit Rosity pretty much turning a blind eye in most cases even though they preferred you really not do it. Apparently enough things happened that they had to turn it into a site rule seven months go. So it's not like this was any kind of surprise thrown out there at the last minute.

Yes, people want to use formats other than zip, but the problem is that most browsers will open zips automatically while things like rars and 7s require an outside utility. Zip is neat and clean and works, so what's the problem?

Now... the big one. Two issue here: (1) Honestly, I dont see a problem with linking to an offsite tutorial.... unless it's going to a site with adult material on it. I know, I know... "the beauty of the female form as celebrated throughout time!" blah blah blah. Dont care, folks. If you're taking me to a site with adult material, and you dont warn me in advance of that, that's a lousy thing to do, period, end of story. (2) If you're running an offsite store at that link, then yes Rosity has the right to deny you that link — you're getting a free platform here and then turn around and exploit it for personal gain elsewhere? That's like going to a bar, having a great time with your friends, and then telling everyone you have beer for sale in your car parked outside. Not cool, period, end of story.

The Prime issue? OK, let's just think about this for a moment. Right now, at this very moment, you have almost three thousand people on this site, a massive gallery that gets filled with new stuff at an alarming rate every minute, and an equally huge store operation. All of this requires some pretty expensive hardware that actually keeps going up in price if you want to stay on top of things... not to mention the no-doubt increased costs in net security to keep this place as virus free as possible. I'm sorry, how do you propose Rosity pay for all this? They're not going to charge a membership fee, so what are your proposals?

The virus issue... someone up in the thread wrote "We are on the internet a lot and should know how to protect ourselves" — well, see, the operative word is "should". A lot of people dont. Now imagine the uproar if someone puts in a link that goes to a site that has malware on it. You think folks arent going to blame Rosity for that? Dream on, folks. Of course they are: "You should have told us! You should have known!" That's happened before, so can you really blame them for wanting to err on the side of caution?

I may have my issues with this place on occasion, but by and large this is a pretty amazing place. The very fact that it exists at all with as minimal a staff as it has is nothing short of a freaking miracle... and you guys are upset because they're trying to do things that ensure the place hangs around for a while longer? Maybe I"m missing a few things here, but I seriously feel the outrage here is somewhat misguided.

Again, just my 0.02. Do with it what you will.

Maybe I can help with 0.01 one of the issues here on this thread SeanMartin We have tutorials from members/affiliates here on site but it would be impossible to cover all aspects of operation considering the multitude of software dealt with on this site. Renderosity have made the rule they don't want links to competing marketplaces so if the tutorial is sitting proud in the center of a 3D marketplace or a website/blog etc then obviously there would be an issue.

**Links to known, safe, established websites are not being banned. If you want to link to a tutorial on YouTube, Vimeo or Lynda.com, info/install guides pages on Smith Micro or DAZ, and links of that nature are accepted. ** If you have a blog and want to share your tutorial then pick the link up from the host ie YouTube etc and that would be fine. Since the majority of videos are hosted by the majors and streamed to your blog I don't think anything has changed with the tutorials as far as being made available.

I don't think Renderosity ever intended to have a rule where anyone was expected to miss out on the valuable resource of learning their craft.

I understand the confusion as I have worked my way through these threads and can see a tweak or two is possibly required. Knowing that everyone who has taken exception to these changes is following these threads and I hope this clears up the matter regarding tutorials. If any member is still unsure please contact me and I will go through it with you

**Um, No. It is all off-site linking to competitive sites. Not just in the free section but also in signatures & posts, so if you have a link your signature expect a message as soon as we can get to it. Additionally, offsite linking to other marketplaces or freestuff sites are not allowed within the forum, gallery, or forum signatures. For example: Links to competing stores like Daz3d.com, RuntimeDNA.com, etc are not allowed. However, links to non-competing stores like Etsy.com or Ebay.com are acceptable.

And please don't shoot the messengers. We're just doing our jobs by following the rules. Please & thank you.

Have a creative day!**

Don't worry i wont shoot anyone :D im just addressing the rule.

And i will make it perfectly clear to anyone, im not against Renderosity removing links, whether its signatures, competing or non competing links or any other type of link for that matter, if it contain or have been reported to contain viruses/malware and so forth they should remove it. Any company running a community should do that, so i have no problem with that. I also understand why Renderosity doesn't allow competing links to places like Daz3d etc, but it have nothing to do with preventing viruses, its for completely other reasons, so these things shouldn't be mixed together.

So my issue is aimed towards a specific addition to the rules of linking that i strongly disagree with for a lot of reasons, But those people and by far the most, that have added links and free content to people here on Renderosity completely free of charge, that a lot of you have benefitted from and enjoyed over the years, does not want or are trying to spread these things, But because a few incidents of people getting a virus from a link in the freebie forum, all these people are some how being accused or pointed out as if they are the main problem here and simply by removing ALL their links the problem can be helped.

But the fact is that you can get a virus from any link, regardless of the place its posted, if you click a link without protecting yourself or using your own judgement when downloading something, there is a chance of you getting a virus. A person spreading these things might have posted in the freebie section, because its the most obvious place to post it, but they will post it regardless of whether Renderosity want it or not, and should it be removed or not have the effect that they want, nothing prevent them from posting it in another forum with another topic, that won't be removed before its to late.

Its impossible to look at a website or something you download whether it contains a virus or not, therefore specialized software have been developed and continues to be so in other to better analyze and remove these things for you.

But if a person is defending this rule, because they think it will increase their security, they are simply being mislead by Renderosity argument, which can potential be very harmful, because such people might assume that due to this rule, any link found on this website is save and therefore don't use there own judgement or software to protect them self.

Tips for protecting your computer from viruses by Microsoft

Protecting your computer from viruses and other threats isn't difficult, but you have to be diligent. Here are some actions you can take:

Install an antivirus program. Installing an antivirus program and keeping it up to date can help defend your computer against viruses. Antivirus programs scan for viruses trying to get into your email, operating system, or files. New viruses appear daily, so set your antivirus software to install updates automatically.

Don't open email attachments unless you're expecting them. Many viruses are attached to email messages and will spread as soon as you open the email attachment. It's best not to open any attachment unless it's something you're expecting. For more information, see When to trust an email message.

Keep your computer updated. Microsoft releases security updates that can help protect your computer. Make sure that Windows receives these updates by turning on Windows automatic updating. For more information, see Turn automatic updating on or off.

Use a firewall.‌ Windows Firewall (or any other firewall) can help alert you to suspicious activity if a virus or worm attempts to connect to your computer. It can also block viruses, worms, and hackers from attempting to download potentially harmful programs to your computer.

Use your browser's privacy settings. Being aware of how websites might use your private information is important to help prevent fraud and identity theft. If you're using Internet Explorer, you can adjust your Privacy settings or restore the default settings whenever you want. For details, see Change Internet Explorer 9 privacy settings.

Use a pop-up blocker with your browser. Pop-up windows are small browser windows that appear on top of the website you're viewing. Although most are created by advertisers, they can also contain malicious or unsafe code. A pop-up blocker can prevent some or all of these windows from appearing.

The Pop-up Blocker feature in Internet Explorer is turned on by default. To learn more about changing its settings or turning it on and off, see Change Internet Explorer 9 privacy settings.

Turn on User Account Control (UAC). When changes are going to be made to your computer that require administrator-level permission, UAC notifies you and gives you the opportunity to approve the change. UAC can help keep viruses from making unwanted changes. To learn more about turning on UAC and adjusting the settings, see Turn User Account Control on or off.

JVRenderer posted at 10:26AM Fri, 26 February 2016 - #4257542

Wonderland posted at 9:50PM Thu, 25 February 2016 - #4257540

"This is so sad. First we lose RDNA and now all this is happening here... Seems like it's the beginning of a mass exodus just when we need a safe place to hangout after RDNA's demise. Where will everyone go?"

I signed up with cgbytes.com. Guess who signed up as well? SnarlyGribbly, Bagginsbill, Erogenesis, Laurie. and a few displaced folks from RDNA. When your welcome is overstated, you'll find a new hangout, build a new community. We are a resilient bunch.

JV

Some of the RDNA people have turned up at Hivewire3D as well but I think the more important aspect is that they have turned up as the danger is always that they will just move on. I am happy to go anywhere that there are interesting threads and helpful people, it is just the software wars and personal attacks I avoid.

There is always a way to stay within the TOS regarding off site linking & it baffles me that people just have to complain about things that can't be changed. However, it literally takes two seconds to make an offsite link not a link. This rule isn't new either, it's been there for years but it's just now being enforced. Not to mention there are so many other sites out there that don't allow off-site linking.

People only complain because they give a damn. What will be much worse for the site is when hardly anyone is complaining. Add that together with hardly anyone posting and you've got an empty house.

Laurie

We have no problem with people complaining and wanting to vent over things they don't agree with. But attacking staff memebrs over it will NOT be tolerated. Our job is to inform you of the rules and enforce those rules and that is what we are doing.

I wasn't attacking anyone. It was a STATEMENT. Wasn't an attack on anybody.

Laurie

LaurieA posted at 12:24PM Fri, 26 February 2016 - #4257601

People only complain because they give a damn. What will be much worse for the site is when hardly anyone is complaining. Add that together with hardly anyone posting and you've got an empty house.

Laurie

Yes I know that, Laurie. Let me be clear: I'm in no way saying anyone is attacking staff. All I was doing is asking folks to "not shoot the messenger" when they start getting site-mails asking them to remove their links. I want everyone to know, we're only doing what we are told.

@LaurieA, I wasn't referring to you, I was speaking generally because this thread and the one that was locked included some attacks and other posts that came close.

Yes I know that, Laurie. Let me be clear: I'm in no way saying anyone is attacking staff. All I was doing is asking folks to "not shoot the messenger" when they start getting site-mails asking them to remove their links. I want everyone to know, we're only doing what we are told.

That's it? You aren't even bothering to tell your superiors WHY this is such a horrible idea, or forward the grievances made here by countless customers and even vendors? Just "Sir, yessir!!" Why is it that you do nothing other than say "we're listening, we're listening"? You guys come across like drones of TPtB. You owe it to your customers, your vendors, and most of all, yourselves to be far more than just underlings. Argue with them, tell them why their decisions are so destructive. Keep doing that every day or week or however often you regularly interact with your superiors until the day that they listen. It's the only way to save this site.

IceEmpress,

You have no clue how hard we've tried. YES, we've expressed our concerns to tptb & but there comes a point when it's time to accept what you can't change. So, with that said, the community needs to move on. In order to do that, the negative comments needs to stop cause it's not helping. I think this thread is nearing it's end.

You have no clue how hard we've tried. YES, we've expressed our concerns to tptb & but there comes a point when it's time to accept what you can't change. So, with that said, the community needs to move on. In order to do that, the negative comments needs to stop cause it's not helping. I think this thread is nearing it's end.

Ain't that just trying to refusing a fact? Clearly the community you want to move on agree with you on that point, but the negative feedback that is expressed just doesn't seem to agree with you in which direction it should move on to. If people doesn't express their concerns and feel as if they are ignored, there is not a lot of value left in the community, which you argue for is so important. We constantly hear arguments "We want people to be happy", "We are really trying", "We are listening", "We do it for you"...etc. Yet if you really believed that yourself and what you were doing actually resulted in that, how come so many people see it as being the complete opposite? At some point someone at Renderosity have to wonder, why your statement doesn't reflect reality?

I have asked several times and as you most likely know, most of my argumentation are not in the public forums, but in the vendor forum. Yet none of my questions or those of others have been answered, except either with new questions or simply by repeating the arguments that was put forward in the first place and are the ones that people don't agree with as either being beneficial or valid.

So fair enough that you want the community to move on, but Renderosity have done nothing for it to do so. Again its based on an illusion as if there is an unbreakable bond between you and the community and yet you do nothing to encourage it, except repeating the same statements mentioned above, that the community clearly doesn't share with you, due to you not listening to what they are saying.

And again the assumption that this "thread/topic" is over, might very well be, but keep hiding/ignoring the concerns from the community is not going to make it go away, people are complaining about lots of things, this was just another slap in the face to the community and the answers from what i can understand haven't changed. "If we all look the other way, it will go away".

Ill ask again for the third time, how is this rule beneficial for the community (Renderosity, vendors and members)?

Btw. Im not referring to you in particular 3dfineries as if you have to do it, as you probably already know, from reading my thread in the vendor forum. So i don't expect you to answer or having to defend it.

My very first purchase here was in March of 2003. I joined the site in July of 2002.

I've ridden the waves of multiple changes for over a decade. Almost fifteen years, actually. I've done it for the MOST part without lodging major complaints. For the most part. There's been a few times where I had enough and spoke up, and of course, was immediately ridiculed, insulted, and jeered at, or just ignored and blown off completely. I don't like to lose my temper, and I don't like to holler and yell. I don't think either of those things does anyone any good, and they are just not constructive ways to get a point across.

A few years ago, when the upper echelon of Renderosity decided to follow Daz's oh so wonderful example of "but we're a BUSINESS!! so take what we're handing out or go away!", well......... I went away. I deleted my ENTIRE gallery, ALL of my freebies (ten years worth at the time), and I moved my whole gallery over to DeviantArt, and I kept my freebie posts to Daz's Freepozitory, and eventually ShareCG.

I did continue to purchase here, albeit at a MUCH lower rate than I once did. I buy the things I need, and I don't buy the things I have no need for.

I saw the Prime membership as Rendo's attempt to keep pace with Daz and it's PC. Unfortunately, for some of us, it was a joke right from the start. At $100 in one lump sum, for an entire year, it was quite frankly not worth it to me, nor was it affordable. Nor did I see much in the way of actual benefits to me, since I am not the type to try and "keep up with the Jones" and buy the latest/greatest/newest/whatever product that's coming out. (This can be seen if you look at my renders; I still use M3, V3, M4, V4, and Genesis 1 figures and their items, I use many items that date all the way back to the reign of the P4 female and V2/M2.)

So, therefore... the Prime was pointless for me. And still is. I am thusly, NOT a Prime member, nor will I ever likely be. I do have a PC membership on Daz because there are a lot of props and environment and other such resources that I find useful. However, lately, with the encrypted-only releases, I'm beginning to doubt how much longer I will maintain that membership either.

In all the changes across the many forums, many sites.. some places disappearing (Remember PoserPros or 3DCommune anyone?) for the most part I have tried to just ride the wave, adjust to it, and continue to move forward with what I'm here to do. I like making content. MOST of my content is made and distributed as freebies. I enjoy making art, even though my art is usually ignored by the gallery-at-large because I don't post pinups or do T&A shots. I do story illustrations. Big difference, and when people are looking for skin, they won't bother looking at story images.

Anyway.

I very recently came back to the site as an artist and freebie maker. I DO upload my freebies to the free content area here, but only because I have no choice. Because I have so many years worth of content, I vastly PREFER to attach a link to my main website IN ADDITION TO THE FILE when I upload a freebie. Why? Because MOST of my freebies are not even on this website any longer ,due to the actions of the Renderosity Business Echelon at the Top. However, that said, I have the same policy in just about any place I post my content. If the place allows a direct upload, or prefers it, I will do it and attach a link to MY website.

I do not sell at MY website. Yeah, there's a small market section, which is no longer even valid. I have emptied out and closed my small store on Content Paradise some time ago, so those links are dead and I need to update my website to reflect that. However, that said... the main reason I attach MY website link to my content posts, is so that folks can find the REST of my content, and maybe they might find something else that is useful to them on the site.

Now, when Rendo first decided to ban these links, I stopped bothering to even post my freebies on the forums here. After all, no links allowed. And then when Rendo went to the Daz attitude of "to heck with you all, we're a BUSINESS and we want MONEY," I ended up wiping out my gallery and my freebie section on this site.

Now, last summer I think it was? I tentatively came back as both an artist and a freebie maker.

I'm wondering if I made a bad decision there. I'm actually considering wiping out both the gallery and the freebies one more time. Rest assured, if I do this a second time, it will be the LAST time, because I will NEVER bother to upload either content or gallery images ever again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. And at the moment, I'm starting to think this just fell into the "Fool me twice" category.

Banning ALL outside links is unproductive to a community environment, which the upper echelon of Renderosity CLAIMS is so gosh darned important to them. Banning ALL outside links actually hampers a community environment, whose purpose is to SHARE information. How the heck are you supposed to share information without links? Someone explain that to me, mmkay? Because to my eyes, it's simply not possible.

Now.. I don't NORMALLY bother to post in discussions such as these. Frankly, they're pointless. We can, as members, rail on all we want. The fact of the matter is that the mods themselves are not the problem, and I am NOT angry with the mods. The other fact of the matter is, that no matter what we say or how many times we say it, or how many of us say it, the upper echelon of the BUSINESS MANAGERS at this site are going to do whatever the hell they feel like, because they DO NOT CARE about the community at large. I do believe the MODS care. I do. But they are being hamstringed by draconian rules and behavior and the money-first, profits-first attitudes of the business managers at this site.

Mods... I could never do your job. I don't envy you your jobs. I would not have the patience for it, and would probably get myself fired for telling off the business managers. I have a bad habit of refusing to do something that I vehemently disagree with. So... props to you for continuing to wade through the piles of horse puckey to do your jobs, because I would never be able to make myself do that.

Now. All of that said. The direction Renderosity is going concerns me. It concerns a lot of folks. I got my start here and at 3DCommune. I've been at this a long time. I don't for even a minute think that anything I or anyone else on these forums has to say is even being READ by the folks at the top, let alone LISTENED to. I know better by now. It doesn't matter how much spin the mods or the admins place on these policies, that's all it is - spin and PR campaigns aimed at trying to herd the membership like sheep into their pens. It's meant to make us kowtow and behave and stop questioning why. They (the business managers at the TOP of the site) dont' care about a dang thing other than how many pennies go into their coffers at the end of each day. Period.

Despite all of this, the community here has limped along. It's NOTHING compared to what it was when I first came here. I won't comment on the banning of the vendor because I have no idea what happened or what was said to cause it.

I am sick to death of corporate and business attitudes. I remember when this hobby was first and foremost about sharing with each other. Heck the whole reason I started to MAKE freebies was to give something back to the hobby that I had benefitted so much from in the first place! Now, with the whole no links thing? You are crippling my ability to give back!

All I will say here, is that at this point, I've found my home at HiveWire, and I will be selling content ONLY through them, but I do still come here on a regular basis to read and sometimes buy a little content from the vendors I love. I still love this place. I would like to continue adding freebies to this place, and my art, and being on the forums to read what gets posted, even if I don't msyelf make a lot of my own posts. At the moment, that is looking doubtful here.

I really wish the greed of business managers would stop destroying places I love.

That's all I say. I won't post again, so don't anyone worry about it. I just had to get that out.

Thanks.

LPR001 posted at 9:07PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257552

**Links to known, safe, established websites are not being banned. If you want to link to a tutorial on YouTube, Vimeo or Lynda.com, info/install guides pages on Smith Micro or DAZ, and links of that nature are accepted. ** If you have a blog and want to share your tutorial then pick the link up from the host ie YouTube etc and that would be fine. Since the majority of videos are hosted by the majors and streamed to your blog I don't think anything has changed with the tutorials as far as being made available.

I don't think Renderosity ever intended to have a rule where anyone was expected to miss out on the valuable resource of learning their craft.

3DFineries posted at 9:08PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257520

It is all off-site linking to competitive sites. Not just in the free section but also in signatures & posts, so if you have a link your signature expect a message as soon as we can get to it. Additionally, offsite linking to other marketplaces or freestuff sites are not allowed within the forum, gallery, or forum signatures. For example: Links to competing stores like Daz3d.com, RuntimeDNA.com, etc are not allowed. However, links to non-competing stores like Etsy.com or Ebay.com are acceptable.

And please don't shoot the messengers. We're just doing our jobs by following the rules. Please & thank you.

I don't want to shoot the messengers. But I do wish you would talk to each other, decide what the rules actually, really, truly, finally ARE, and then let us know. As long as, you're contradicting each other -- in the same thread, even -- how are we supposed to have any idea what's going on?

There's nothing worse than having one mod say, "Yes, that's fine," and then have another turn around and delete something and then give you a warning as well, as though you're some kind of reprobate who refuses to abide by the TOS.

Anyway, I am not going to post help to newbie users if I am going to be hamstrung. If I can't link to tutorials -- no matter where they are --, if I can't link to freebie scripts and other products that help to solve a problem or are necessary to perform some function, then I'm not going to post any help because it's just not worth it doing dances around a TOS that is against everything the World Wide Web stands for.

Linking is the FOUNDATION of the web. It's what makes the internet the super connected source of information and sharing that it is today.

To be sure, a marketplace's Google rank is, in fact, still largely determined by the number and quality of its links. But any site that limits the outgoing links, in a misguided effort to prevent the loss of sales, is going to lose far more than it gains.

If I link to a tutorial on Daz in a forum post that helps a newbie, the newbie will watch or read the tutorial -- and they MAY decide to browse the Daz marketplace. Or they may bookmark the tute, close that tab, and return to Rendo's forums to thank the person who made the link.

If I can't link to that tutorial, but must, instead, give directions about how to search for it, that newbie will almost certainly end up on Daz's marketplace while they are looking for the tutorial -- and they are far more likely to get distracted and stay there.

Moreover, for every outgoing link to a freebie maker's site that Renderosity loses, it will also lose a quality incoming link. What is a quality link? It's a link to a site with a closely related topic or within the same industry.

Sure, links to Etsy and Ebay and so on are permitted, but Google has told us themselves that links both to and from sites which are unrelated to the topic or industry of the site in question are not considered "quality links". They are, in fact, more likely to drop your ranking because Google perceives lots of unrelated linking as being link farming. So, yeah, ban the quality links, encourage the low quality ones. See what happens.

I used to make a living doing search engine optimization. I've seen sites buried by Google and for no other reason than that they tried to create a walled garden. Walled gardens are okay if you're Apple or Facebook. But if you have fewer than several hundred million users, setting one up is like cutting your throat. Google is deeply committed to the FOUNDATION of the world wide web -- that is, the LINK: they made and continue to make their living from it. And any not-enormous site that tries to go against the philosophy of free information flow through the technology of the LINK is going to be hurt by Google.

My $20's worth. Take it or leave it.

moriador posted at 4:59PM Sun, 28 February 2016 - #4257975

LPR001 posted at 9:07PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257552

**Links to known, safe, established websites are not being banned. If you want to link to a tutorial on YouTube, Vimeo or Lynda.com, info/install guides pages on Smith Micro or DAZ, and links of that nature are accepted. ** If you have a blog and want to share your tutorial then pick the link up from the host ie YouTube etc and that would be fine. Since the majority of videos are hosted by the majors and streamed to your blog I don't think anything has changed with the tutorials as far as being made available.

I don't think Renderosity ever intended to have a rule where anyone was expected to miss out on the valuable resource of learning their craft.

3DFineries posted at 9:08PM Sat, 27 February 2016 - #4257520

It is all off-site linking to competitive sites. Not just in the free section but also in signatures & posts, so if you have a link your signature expect a message as soon as we can get to it. Additionally, offsite linking to other marketplaces or freestuff sites are not allowed within the forum, gallery, or forum signatures. For example: Links to competing stores like Daz3d.com, RuntimeDNA.com, etc are not allowed. However, links to non-competing stores like Etsy.com or Ebay.com are acceptable.

And please don't shoot the messengers. We're just doing our jobs by following the rules. Please & thank you.

I don't want to shoot the messengers. But I do wish you would talk to each other, decide what the rules actually, really, truly, finally ARE, and then let us know. As long as, you're contradicting each other -- in the same thread, even -- how are we supposed to have any idea what's going on?

There's nothing worse than having one mod say, "Yes, that's fine," and then have another turn around and delete something and then give you a warning as well, as though you're some kind of reprobate who refuses to abide by the TOS.

---

Anyway, I am not going to post help to newbie users if I am going to be hamstrung. If I can't link to tutorials -- no matter where they are --, if I can't link to freebie scripts and other products that help to solve a problem or are necessary to perform some function, then I'm not going to post any help because it's just not worth it doing dances around a TOS that is against everything the World Wide Web stands for.

Linking is the FOUNDATION of the web. It's what makes the internet the super connected source of information and sharing that it is today.

To be sure, a marketplace's Google rank is, in fact, still largely determined by the number and quality of its links. But any site that limits the outgoing links, in a misguided effort to prevent the loss of sales, is going to lose far more than it gains.

If I link to a tutorial on Daz in a forum post that helps a newbie, the newbie will watch or read the tutorial -- and they MAY decide to browse the Daz marketplace. Or they may bookmark the tute, close that tab, and return to Rendo's forums to thank the person who made the link.

If I can't link to that tutorial, but must, instead, give directions about how to search for it, that newbie will almost certainly end up on Daz's marketplace while they are looking for the tutorial -- and they are far more likely to get distracted and stay there.

Moreover, for every outgoing link to a freebie maker's site that Renderosity loses, it will also lose a quality incoming link. What is a quality link? It's a link to a site with a closely related topic or within the same industry.

Sure, links to Etsy and Ebay and so on are permitted, but Google has told us themselves that links both to and from sites which are unrelated to the topic or industry of the site in question are not considered "quality links". They are, in fact, more likely to drop your ranking because Google perceives lots of unrelated linking as being link farming. So, yeah, ban the quality links, encourage the low quality ones. See what happens.

I used to make a living doing search engine optimization. I've seen sites buried by Google and for no other reason than that they tried to create a walled garden. Walled gardens are okay if you're Apple or Facebook. But if you have fewer than several hundred million users, setting one up is like cutting your throat. Google is deeply committed to the FOUNDATION of the world wide web -- that is, the LINK: they made and continue to make their living from it. And any not-enormous site that tries to go against the philosophy of free information flow through the technology of the LINK is going to be hurt by Google.

My $20's worth. Take it or leave it.

Some change

We use the same TOS the members do and while I was making my way through the posts I noticed many members were stating that it was all offsite links including tutorials. I kept flipping back and forth between the posts and the TOS and had concerns about tutorials as there was nothing in the TOS that states you could not do this but also nothing to say you could. We only worry about when it says you can't. Anything dubious is based on its own individual case. What it does say is no links to competing marketplaces. Given the members are claiming we are ignoring them I felt I should go and seek clarification as I thought it was very important if anything the need for tutorials is critical and I have posted the answer. If anything as I stated the TOS may need a tweak in relation to this because I could see the confusion myself. It is as I stated above and 3DFineries did ask me about this and will pin a post regarding the matter. The main part to consider - Links to known, safe, established websites are not being banned. And providing your link does not land in a competing marketplace there is no issue. If someone asked about a nVidia Graphic Card you could land them smack in the middle of the PC nVidia /retailer store or eBay etc as Renderosity would not take exception to that.

Now the members either want the mods (namely me) to sort through this each and every line, address their concerns, see where there may be confusion, and hopefully in some cases bring back something that looks a little more acceptable, or at the very least a clarification when it looks like it falls short somewhere. However if trying to sort through this is going to be an issue for you guys please let me know now because I really have got better things to do with my time than play games. After all it is contradictory to slap us down when we are only trying to do what you are asking for.

Thank you Johnny for clearing that up for everyone. The wording in the TOS is unclear & it was confusing everyone but I am glad this is perfectly clear now.

My apologies to the members. :heart tip:

We use the same TOS the members do and while I was making my way through the posts I noticed many members were stating that it was all offsite links including tutorials. I kept flipping back and forth between the posts and the TOS and had concerns about tutorials as there was nothing in the TOS that states you could not do this but also nothing to say you could. We only worry about when it says you can't. Anything dubious is based on its own individual case. What it does say is no links to competing marketplaces. Given the members are claiming we are ignoring them I felt I should go and seek clarification as I thought it was very important if anything the need for tutorials is critical and I have posted the answer. If anything as I stated the TOS may need a tweak in relation to this because I could see the confusion myself. It is as I stated above and 3DFineries did ask me about this and will pin a post regarding the matter. The main part to consider - Links to known, safe, established websites are not being banned. And providing your link does not land in a competing marketplace there is no issue. If someone asked about a nVidia Graphic Card you could land them smack in the middle of the PC nVidia /retailer store or eBay etc as Renderosity would not take exception to that.

LPR, you need to look at Hope's locked thread in the Freestuff forum which is THE official announcement about off-site links.

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2899703

In the TOS, we now have a new addition that states we no longer accept off-site links. So, unfortunately, you're unable to post off-site freebies.

In addition, we fear that any off-site links could be harmful to other members and could potentially give off viruses.

Tutorials are not mentioned specifically, but it is clear that hope is referring to any and all off-site links, PERIOD. There is nothing in the announcement about 'trusted sites' for videos or tutorials nor that there are any exceptions to this rule.

I think, with all its defects, I think there are many things can be improved here, in Renderosity, this place is the way to go after the "close" of RDNA , for Poser artist and content creators.

Big stores and community like this one, and RDNA was till now, are very important and vital for survival of Poser world, not only for the Poser application.

Everyone can have an opinion about everything, It is normal and even recommended, but I don't think the solution of all problems is to close and leave this place, and less in the times we are living now.

I have nothing against DAZ3d and its way of making business, I have nothing against DAZ3d when try to get the entire "cake" of Poser business, this is normal and logical from its point of view, even mandatory for a company of this size, but to people that " cut" with this website, for one reason or other, justifiably or not, I would say that try to imagine a "Poser world" where there is only one big community and store to go, with its own rules and without equal competitors.

Just think about it.

IceEmpress posted at 1:39AM Mon, 29 February 2016 - #4258008

We use the same TOS the members do and while I was making my way through the posts I noticed many members were stating that it was all offsite links including tutorials. I kept flipping back and forth between the posts and the TOS and had concerns about tutorials as there was nothing in the TOS that states you could not do this but also nothing to say you could. We only worry about when it says you can't. Anything dubious is based on its own individual case. What it does say is no links to competing marketplaces. Given the members are claiming we are ignoring them I felt I should go and seek clarification as I thought it was very important if anything the need for tutorials is critical and I have posted the answer. If anything as I stated the TOS may need a tweak in relation to this because I could see the confusion myself. It is as I stated above and 3DFineries did ask me about this and will pin a post regarding the matter. The main part to consider - Links to known, safe, established websites are not being banned. And providing your link does not land in a competing marketplace there is no issue. If someone asked about a nVidia Graphic Card you could land them smack in the middle of the PC nVidia /retailer store or eBay etc as Renderosity would not take exception to that.

LPR, you need to look at Hope's locked thread in the Freestuff forum which is THE official announcement about off-site links.

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2899703

In the TOS, we now have a new addition that states we no longer accept off-site links. So, unfortunately, you're unable to post off-site freebies.

In addition, we fear that any off-site links could be harmful to other members and could potentially give off viruses.

Tutorials are not mentioned specifically, but it is clear that hope is referring to any and all off-site links, PERIOD. There is nothing in the announcement about 'trusted sites' for videos or tutorials nor that there are any exceptions to this rule.

IceEmpress - Links to known, safe, established websites are accepted. This includes Daz and Smith Micro just make sure it does not land in a competing marketplace and you will be okay. If you have any difficulties contact me. Now we can move on and see what else is not clear.

Sorry, but I still don't believe you. If this were true, then Hope's thread that I linked to would be deleted and either you or she would make a new official one that clarifies these points. Instead, you are telling us this within threads where it will get conveniently buried. This tells me that what you are saying is not the official TOS at all, because it's not official until an announcement topic is made about it.

Unless, that is, that it IS the new official TOS, but TPtB have prohibited you guys not to make an announcement about it because they do not actually want people to know that it is permitted...

@IceEmpress You don't have to believe me that is up to you. Where it states in the TOS - links to non-competing stores like Etsy.com or Ebay.com are acceptable is IMO a little light on detail. I will ask Hope to see if we can have this done. Nothing has changed, nothing was added or subtracted from the principles of the rule itself it is basically more examples only. There is no conspiracy.

With your comment

• Unless, that is, that it IS the new official TOS, but TPtB have prohibited you guys not to make an announcement about it because they do not actually want people to know that it is permitted...

The TPtB have said nothing of the sort that I am aware of and if we were prohibited to make any announcements then I probably would not have put the clarification up don't you think?

I have been here long enough to know that nothing can be buried in a thread here. I am positive you will find it if you need to.

I am SOOOO confused and because I am now so confused, and because this back and forth has been going on so long, I'm too tired and no longer care to have it clarified. Thanks Renderosity. Good luck to the mods. I'm not being facetious, I really do wish ya luck.

Laurie

Thanks everyone for your comments. But, this thread is being locked because there's nothing left to discuss.