shannonhoppe po. sted at 11:50PM Sat, 02 May 2020 - #4387067

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@shannonhope - Is that a render or is it a photo of 3D print lf your work?

V4 Toon Girl Sadie Aiko 3 ChibiBel NearMe AnimeDoll

ironsoul posted at 2:30PM Sun, 03 May 2020 - #4387972

@shannonhope - Is that a render or is it a photo of 3D print lf your work?

Last part of the question should have been "of your work" not "if your work" - I'm finding it difficult to spot the difference between renders and photos these days.

That is the advantage of PBR render engines.

V4 and M4

I also mentioned V4 and M4 earlier in this thread but should clarify (especially now that Karina has returned from the Beyond) that I am slowly migrating my V4 characters over to Sasha-16 during the COVID-19 lockdown, and am absolutely loving Sasha as I get to use her more and more.

tomyee posted at 9:08AM Mon, 04 May 2020 - #4388085

I also mentioned V4 and M4 earlier in this thread but should clarify (especially now that Karina has returned from the Beyond) that I am slowly migrating my V4 characters over to Sasha-16 during the COVID-19 lockdown, and am absolutely loving Sasha as I get to use her more and more.

May I ask a follow up? Why are you still using V4/M4? Why not one of the newer models?

EClark1894 posted at 7:08PM Mon, 04 May 2020 - #4388086

May I ask a follow up? Why are you still using V4/M4? Why not one of the newer models?

I'm not the person you asked, but I'll answer since it also applies to me. The reason I still use V4/M4 is that the newer models simply aren't good enough for me personally.

I got heavily into Dawn when she was released, but quickly got over it, badly rigged hips combined with her shape and face just turned me off. To be specific, her shoulders, crotch area (which deforms weirdly when posed), joker mouth and 'wrong' eyes made it very difficult for me to work with her. The face is the most important part of the figure for me, and if you can't make that work, it's no-go. Which brings me to LaFemme.

I was very exited about LaFemme at first, but that didn't last long as I got to work more with her. The face is just impossible to work with for me, and the mouth in particular is.. I dunno how to describe it even.. and no nose to speak of. The shoulders are weird, the arms in general are bizarre and the hands and wrist bending in particular are just very wrong in my eyes. Weird knees as well. She bends well though (except for the wrists), I'll give them that. Not many morphs to work with tho.

This doesn't mean I never use these figures tho, I just find them very limited, and I end up going back to Sasha, who bends really well, and have all the skins and morphs I need.

Which brings me to PE: I love PE, but there isn't enough content there. Not talking about clothes, those can be fitted, but skins. Skins and morphs are the most important factor in any figure for me personally, and if you can't switch those up, the figure is dead in the water for me. I found one commercial character for PE that I bought, and while I like the morph, I was disappointed to learn that the skin was just the same procedural merchant resource the original skins were made from, and procedurals and tiles will IMO never be as good as photo resources. So, for me, there aren't any good skins out there. I also struggle a bit with PE's face, again particularly the eyes and mouth.

So the reason I go back to V4 is simple, with Sasha, she now bends just as well as the new figures (and even better in many cases), and she has enough skins and morphs that I can do whatever I want with her.

I am cautiously optimistic about Dawn 2 however, as they have addressed some of the issues that troubled me the most about original Dawn. Also looking forward to AmbientShade's new figures, from what I've seen they could very well be my new go-to figures. If character vendors step up and embrace them at least.

(Note: I'm not 'figure-bashing' here, just pointing out issues that I personally find discouraging)

EClark1894 posted at 1:16PM Mon, 04 May 2020 - #4388086

tomyee posted at 9:08AM Mon, 04 May 2020 - #4388085

I also mentioned V4 and M4 earlier in this thread but should clarify (especially now that Karina has returned from the Beyond) that I am slowly migrating my V4 characters over to Sasha-16 during the COVID-19 lockdown, and am absolutely loving Sasha as I get to use her more and more.

May I ask a follow up? Why are you still using V4/M4? Why not one of the newer models?

Hi EC, I actually have mentioned this in previous threads about why I still stick with these two figures. I've created a ton of custom characters (using the morph brush, using imported OBJs, morph packages, etc) for both figures over the years, and the amount of time and energy gone into those, is just not something I want to repeat by porting them over to any of the newer figures -- which are mostly female anyway, and Karina's S-16 is so good at fixing any bending issues, plus maintaining compatibility with my huge library of V4 content, and it's not been as hard as I'd feared to port their faces to S-16, so I'm happy with what I've got.

I do hope Karina eventually does a similar fix for M4 (I think a lot of happy S-16 users are waiting for that too), and if there are any content creators who would like to keep making clothing for V4 and M4, that's the stuff that I'd still buy today. Ideally a conforming outfit that has parts which can be simulated either with the Cloth Room and/or VWD to get the best of both worlds (hybrid clothing). Sadly I think most content creators are Daz-only now, and I've lately been just kitbashing existing clothes or modelling my own clothing and using the cloth room, or even just using post-work to get the render I want.

EClark1894 posted at 1:47PM Mon, 04 May 2020 - #4388086

May I ask a follow up? Why are you still using V4/M4? Why not one of the newer models?

Earl, I probably think about this in a too simple way. But:

• Imagine you have a garage full of special tools, accessories, and spare parts for the car you're actually driving (Let's call it the "Morris Karina")
• You are well accustomed to operating and maintaining that car, plus you also know how to drive it in the most difficult of terrain and weather.
• Let's also suppose for a moment that, unlike cars, digital meshes don't age!

Then one day a brand new and innovative car is released!! (Let's call it the "Fnord Kartina") It has all the latest technology on board, a completely redesigned undercarriage, a different driver's cabin and a completely redesigned dashboard.

Unfortunately, the switch for the headlights is now on the far left, the gear stick is behind the driver's seat, and in order to look at the speedometer you first have to open the glove box. Also the pedals for gas, brake and clutch have swapped their position. But now you can adjust the brightness of the cabin light with a menu-driven on-board computer, and the doors will open if you operate the trackball in the centre console...

What would you do?

Run after that new junk? Or just stick to what you have, you know, and you master perfectly?

As long as it fits all your needs, and you can happily continue working in your garage to improve your old, reliable car? While the alternative would be:

• BUY the new shiny car
• BUY all tools again because the old one aren't compatible
• BUY new accessories
• BUY...
• BUY...
• BUY...!

That's the DAZ hamster wheel, spinning since Genesis was introduced. I don't need that in Poser too!

Question answered? NO!

Because there's more to it!

From time to time, certain people drop by here, boasting about "industry standards" (though the figures they advertise are anything, but certainly NOT an industry standard. But "it sounds soo good"...)

Well, IMO, V4 IS an industry standard (at least for our hobbyist niche).

Show me any other 3D figure with similar longevity, and similar versatility!

Over the last 12 years we've seen a parade of "NEW! INNOVATIVE! GO TO!" figures coming and going... Still V4 prevails. Now I ask you - WHY??

I think I have a guess at why:

Because there is a whole galaxy of textures, morphs, characters, accessories, props, Python scripts, and what more out there which will work with this figure without hour-long tweaking, only to find out that it doesn't work with your new shiny figure at all because gas, brake and clutch have swapped their position and also work differently now.

For all those who just want to set up a nice scene and finish their work with a nice render, all they need is SASHA. let the die-hard-tinkerers continue to play with the new figures. To each it's own!

But for ME (as in "me, myself and I") I won't use neither Pauline, PE, nor LaFemme for (reasons see last posts!) .

MY opinion, so attack me if you disagree, and not the posts I referred to!

K

KarinaKiev posted at 1:00PM Mon, 04 May 2020 - #4388147

That's the DAZ hamster wheel, spinning since Genesis was introduced. I don't need that in Poser too!

I can grok that... I held off on that series (and stuck with Vicky 4) until just around the time that G3 came out, specifically because it seemed like a new iteration shot out the door every other week, and I refused to commit to anything until then.

G8 is now, what, 3 years old? G3 came out 3 years prior to that (this one's a guess)? I bet a G9 might show up sometime next year or so (though I'd fail to see the appeal of doing so, minus any eyegasmic feature to accompany it that is.)

From time to time, certain people drop by here, boasting about "industry standards" (though the figures they advertise are anything, but certainly NOT an industry standard. But "it sounds soo good"...)

No such thing... yet. You get close to it, though, here:

Well, IMO, V4 IS an industry standard (at least for our hobbyist niche).

Show me any other 3D figure with similar longevity, and similar versatility!

Posette (Poser default female figure: 1998 - 2005). Not as new-shiny as the Victoria 1/2/3 series, but it remained quite popular up until around the time Vicky 4 came out. After all, most of the really ground-breaking stuff happened on little Posette: Conforming Clothing, ERC, Transmapping, morphing (some would say), etc.

But, all things are relative, yes?

For all those who just want to set up a nice scene and finish their work with a nice render, all they need is SASHA. let the die-hard-tinkerers continue to play with the new figures. To each it's own!

Question: From a stark newbie's POV, would this statement still hold true? Or, would said newbie be directed to go download a mass of stuff, install it just so, go chase down deprecated (and often now-missing) bits and bobs, etc? Not an argument, but rather an invitation to examine.

But for ME (as in "me, myself and I") I won't use neither Pauline, PE, nor LaFemme for (reasons see last posts!)

Well, that and PE don't work so hot in DS.

MY opinion, so attack me if you disagree, and not the posts I referred to!

Sounds kinky... please, continue...

Karina, your answer sounds good, but I'm afraid it's too simple. For instance, based on that answer , you pobably would haved stopped buying Poser after version 5 or 6. I didn't buy 5, for example. I skipped that version. You also probably wouldn't need to upgrade your computer or other software. 2009 was the last time I bought a new Mac. I did upgrade every version of Poser since 6, though, but I didn't upgrade to every version of Blender, and that was free. So, no, I don't chase after shiny and new, but I do move forward.

And unless I think a post is factually incorrect in someway, I don't tend to attack posts or posters.

@Clarke you have touched upon a certain reality that people seem to ignore.

Of course ,Planned obsolesence is what Keeps the Daz content Hamster wheel spinning.?

However, to be fair this strategy, has made Apple the behemoth it is today. ( and Many other consumer product producers) so it is nothing new.

First I agree completely that NONE of the Female figures from Antonia to PE and lefemme could compete with Daz V4 even without SASHA16, they all still Fail to compete IMHO

I make my own Daz studio/Iclone pro content,thus I am not affected By anything in this market except whatever new awesome features I get in my main 3DCC Blender 2.8x.?

However If V4 is the pinnacle then yes, everyone could have stopped at around Poser pro 2014 (Where I Stopped& bailed)and live off of their 50+gig content hoards,and the trickle of new bits here & there, until Death

As Peng hinted, If people are encouraged to not try/buy the new and shiny, how Does bondware make money selling new poser software that boasts new and shiny features and Figures as a selling point to justify its cost? ?

wolf359 posted at 8:38PM Mon, 04 May 2020 - #4388172

Of course ,Planned obsolesence is what Keeps the Daz content Hamster wheel spinning.?

If that were true, then hows come I can still use V4, A3, V2(!), M2, etc etc etc etc etc etc... and all their stuff.... in latest-greatest versions of Poser or DS?

Did you mean that DAZ no longer distributes Vicky 4 (like 14-15 years after it was first released), therefore "planned obsolescence"? Oh, wait - I just looked - you can still buy Victoria 4.2 as part of a massive starter kit in their store... like nearly 15 years after Vicky 4 first hit the virtual shelves.

So yeah, c'mon man... stop that.

First I agree completely that NONE of the Female figures from Antonia to PE and lefemme could compete with Daz V4 even without SASHA16, they all still Fail to compete IMHO

Kinda agree here, but only insofar as the figures' relative and perceived inflexibility (in appearance, not joints. Wanted to point that out.). Now if they could work the topology a bit (or if enough folks get real creative with ZBrush, etc), then we could see some improvement... and it may well get there, since LF just came out, relatively speaking.

Would I use any of 'em? Prolly not, since I have my investments (time, money, cursing, etc) elsewhere, and imports look like sheer drudgework (barring a porting-in of a Python version from, err, this geologic era ;) ), but the potential hasn't vanished entirely here, especially for the newer folks.

However If V4 is the pinnacle then yes, everyone could have stopped at around Poser pro 2014 (Where I Stopped& bailed)and live off of their 50+gig content hoards,and the trickle of new bits here & there, until Death

You could, but for how long? Unless you have Stage-4 something-bad, I doubt that even you could hold out until Death. I know I couldn't/wouldn't.

(PS: 50GB? Those are rookie numbers! You gotta pump those numbers up! )

I think what also helps keep V4 and M4 alive is that Daz will release those figures for free (along with some nice addon packages like V4++ and M4++) every once in a while. I already got these for free many, many years ago during an earlier Daz promotion, but obviously it helps that Daz does still push V4 and M4 to some degree by giving it away. People will always flock to stuff that they don't have to pay for (initially), like figures, and 3d packages like Blender.

I would consider pushing the idea that Bondware should give away a limited version of Poser for free and try to adopt a make-money-from-content business model like Daz, but I fear that it just wouldn't work precisely because the compelling content isn't there, unlike with Daz. But at the same time, trying to sell a 3d package for over $100 is always going to limit your ability to grow your user base... people are getting more and more used to open-source software (free).

Bondware needs a way that content like clothing and hair will work seamlessly across all figures (older ones like V3, V4 to newer ones like LaFemme and Dawn), no messing with Fitting Room because new users simply won't bother to spend the time to learn it, and that way content creators can make clothing and have access to all Poser users that are on whatever figure. To me that means a new dynamic cloth simulator that is far superior to the current outdated Cloth Room, but has the power of something like VWD (but with a ton of presets or the ability to analyze the mesh to apply a preset to it accurately). I buy the cloth, I position it so that it overlays the figure in my scene, tell the Poser cloth wizard that this item is cotton (or the content creator provides the presets that tell the new cloth wizard what is constrained, what is not, etc). and then in seconds it just simulates what I need...

The one essential change that has come in mainstream figures is the 'A' pose now assumed by genesis8. It is not the first one, Sixus1's Scarlet and Ali's Angela/Ang2 featured that pose and also Ali's Bella originally was in A pose. There may have been more but those three figures come to mind.

Reason for DAZ to make gen8 A-pose is simple: A-pose and dynamics go hand in hand. Cut a jacket in T- pose and you end up with huge lumps of fabric under the armpits and ghastly strain on the shoulders in about every normal pose the figure can take. DForce would not have worked well in T-pose.

Scarlet was abandoned by her maker. At Mankahoo Ali soldiers on but he is a one-man band. Tools provided in Poser are not geared towards A-pose. The cloth room is a shadow of what it could have become. Yet dynamic clothing, or at least dual mode clothing, are the future. To compete Bondware needs La femme 'en A' and a deal with Marvelous Designer or with VWD. The first route would provide a content production route and a simulation tool, the latter provides only simulation.

I never really liked V4. That's juist me. There is no 'click' between us. 'V4' However is and will remain to be a de-facto standard format for content, if only for the sheer volume there is available.

That's an excellent point, FVerbaas! I never liked the A-pose and preferred the T-pose (probably because that was my first exposure to the default state of a 3d figure) but you've changed my mind. I always wondered why some figures used the A-pose and this makes it more understandable.

If that were true, then hows come I can still use V4, A3, V2(!), M2, etc etc etc etc etc etc... and all their stuff.... in latest-greatest versions of Poser or DS?

Did you mean that DAZ no longer distributes Vicky 4 (like 14-15 years after it was first released), therefore "planned obsolescence"? Oh, wait - I just looked - you can still buy Victoria 4.2 as part of a massive starter kit in their store... like nearly 15 years after >Vicky 4 first hit > the virtual shelves.

The ability to load a 13 year old legacy CR2 base figure into the latest version of Daz studio, and having it supported by the PA store content and programs features & addons are two entirely different things and you know it. C'mon man ..stop that!!!?

If You *lack any content creation skills, what do you actually do with a Vicky 2 figure in Daz studio 4.12???

With those vestigial figures, You wont have access to HD moprhs JCMs, the latest lipsynch options,

Skin builder

Fit control

Expression enhancer

The spline based dynamic hair system

Adjust rigging to shape with extreme body morphs

None of the High quality 4K Iray skin materials

None of the ready made hybrid Dforce clothing or Hair

The three click transfer utility for cloth rigging.

The new photos to faces feature or the third party Face Gen artis pro that does the same thing.

None of the convenient pose control dials for hand/fingers and facial expressions. etc etc etc.

There is a reason that Daz will not allow distribution of older versions of their Free Daz studio software.?

They want you using the Latest version of Genesis and re-purchasing the "new" content and addons to keep that hamster wheel spinning.?

Again ,not a crime in a captialist economy ( see Apple ,Microsoft et al)

But IMHO ,one cannot keep blasting Smith Micro for letting poser stagnate for years while insisting on still desparately clinging to 15 year Old "golden age" content that is not even compatible with the new features that would enable the software to compete with Daz studio or Iclone.?

IIRC, Scarlet was abandoned by Sixus primarily because of the way she was savagely criticised upon her release. People were not kind.

@EClark1984: Sure the figure was not well received. To my knowledge there was more but that is not the point here. I just mentioned her to indicate A-pose is nothing novel.

FVerbaas posted at 10:24AM Tue, 05 May 2020 - #4388188

@EClark1984: Sure the figure was not well received. To my knowledge there was more but that is not the point here. I just mentioned her to indicate A-pose is nothing novel.

Well, you did more than just mention the pose. You also mentioned that she was "abandoned by her maker" but gave no reason why. The whole context of your post could leave readers to speculate as to why if they weren't already familiar with the figure.

wolf359 posted at 7:17AM Tue, 05 May 2020 - #4388185

The ability to load a 13 year old legacy CR2 base figure into the latest version of Daz studio, and having it supported by the PA store content and programs features & addons are two entirely different things and you know it.

In what way is that "planned obsolescence", given that anybody, anywhere, can create content for any of it, and it'll run on the software? Anybody can make content for it, and sell that content anywhere (see also, well, here.)

If You *lack any content creation skills, what do you actually do with a Vicky 2 figure in Daz studio 4.12???

You mean besides download and use the zillions of freebies still out there for it? Or hey, let's just go buy Vicky 1/2 stuff directly from them

Besides, the question could apply to anything - if you lack the content creation skills, what do you actually do with Posette on Poser $latest, or iClone $latest, or Blender $latest...?

With those vestigial figures, You wont have access to HD moprhs JCMs, the latest lipsynch options,

Nope, but that obsolescence was not planned; the figures just never had 'em. Nothing is stopping you from adding those abilities yourself, however, since a huge chunk of the goodies.features you listed were originally third-party plugins, and some are just a matter of merchant/user desire+ability.. ;)

There is a reason that Daz will not allow distribution of older versions of their Free Daz studio software.?

Yeah, lots of 'em - liability, support, bandwidth, OS compatibilities (e.g. MacOS' shift to 64-bit-only), etc. There's a reason why you can't buy a legit copy of Windows XP Pro from Microsoft, either, so...

They want you using the Latest version of Genesis and re-purchasing the "new" content and addons to keep that hamster wheel spinning.?

...and yet I can still buy Vicky 1 stuff ...and it still works on the latest iterations of DS and Poser. - shrug -

But IMHO ,one cannot keep blasting Smith Micro for letting poser stagnate for years while insisting on still desparately clinging to 15 year Old "golden age" content that is not even compatible with the new features that would enable the software to compete with Daz studio or Iclone.?

I can agree to the premise, depending on context. But then, even old mesh can be rehabilitated to an extent, and a lot of folks want to get a bit more mileage out of what they originally bought long ago, and I can't fault 'em for that.

Btw, I don't render as much as I used to, between modeling in Blender and working on my Content Directory, but I do still own V4 and M4, and all of the content I bought for them, they're just not my go to figures. Right now, that actually seems to be Dawn and Dusk.

ironsoul posted at 6:10PM Wed, 06 May 2020 - #4387972

@shannonhope - Is that a render or is it a photo of 3D print lf your work?

@ironsoul - Not a photo. That's the models as they sit in Modo low poly (BeastMan's whip looks to be subdivided but the rest is straight poly low). I'll knock the dust off the project here in the near future and finish it. Another pass in ZBrush to shore some things up, texture pass in Substance and do the fur elements in ZBrush and toss it back over to Poser. May take me a minute to get back to it but I'll post the finished work when done either here at Rendo or over at my Deviant.