I just wanted to know what the feeling of the community was. Before I started posting, I read and re-read many opinions about whether what we do here is art, particularly if we don't build the Geometry and textures. I will not even get into that here but it did bring up some stuff about credits, I ( my opinion ) think of what we do as more like a Collage Even though I am begening to build my own textures and hopfully soon Original Geometry. Now having done a certain amount of compilation work. I have never credited my collage work before, but seeing that many folks did here. I do, to the best of my ability. I think it is a good pratice. What I want to know, and am taking forever to get to. If I use a free piece, I of course credit it, am I as obligated to credit a piece that I have purchased, and have bought the legal right to use in finished images?? I will probably continue to but wanted to know what you all thought.

I think the reason we credit others is to show that we are not trying to pass of the work of others as our own. It is a matter of manners rather than obligation. The second reason is to share what can be done, and what's available. Merchants would no doubt be delighted when their work is credited, it could lead to further sales. If you like their work well enough to buy it, then why not give them the benefit of a credit?

I try to credit as many people as I can because they did in fact help me create what i came up with.

In a way, though, this all boils back to the "what is considered ART" argument. Can you imagine how a magazine ad would look if all "art" was treated this way? "I'd like to thank Cameron Diaz's mother for giving birth to her, and her third grade teacher for making her want to go into show biz so that I could take the picture. Versace for designing her clothes, Christian Dior for her pantyhose, Minolta for my camera and Gucci for my camera bag to hold my equipment. And Ford, can't forget Ford for building the car that she's leaning against. Oh yeah, and the guy that laid the cement for the sidewalk. And God, because God gave us this bright sunny day and provided lovely ambient light." "Me? Oh, I just clicked the shutter on the camera that I didn't build to take a picture on film I didn't create to use in a darkroom filled with stuff I bought from someone else." When the heck does it become Too Much? Why does one medium 'require' it, and others don't?

I think either way is right. I usually don't because frankly I can't remember whose is what all the time. Also I think in the gallerys the default is that you are using someones elses work. Also there are so few comments versus the amount of viewings that if someone wanted to know where something came from all they'd have to do is ask.

I think peejay pretty much sums it up. :)

I agree with Crytopooka. Its like we are almost ashamed and have to continually say oh but this came from here this came from there. When in reality all these great models, textures, etc are completely useless unless someone creates something with them. I've never seen anyone oh and ahh about a texmap in the gallery, or a unadorned mesh.

Yes, what we are doing is art...at least some of us are ;-) (jk) Does it matter if a painter does or doesn't stretch and gesso his own canvas? Does it make him less of an artist if he doesn't mix his own pigments, or make his own brushes? Whether we build the geometries or create the textures has no bearing on what we make with them. Rest assured, it is art either way. As far as crediting goes; it depends on what the creator requires in their licensing agreement. If it is a freebie, it is a good idea to do it to avoid hurt feelings, most artists require that you give them a credit and a link back to their site. If the model or texture is offered as "Royalty free" or "public domain", then no credit is required. Generally if you buy a model or texture, you are buying the license to use that product to create commercial art. In that case no credit is required. However, if I like a product I may mention it so other people know where to get it too.

I don't feel like I have to credit people for things that I purchase. I do it so other artists know what I used so if they like it they can find it in the marketplace or at Daz. I'm working on designing a website as I have a lot of pictures I don't post here, they tend to be more for my friends than anything. I don't plan on crediting anyone for anything I've purchased there, only free stuff, even though for most people that see it, it won't mean much.

The real reason I don't post credits is the way my archive is organized. When, pose's, props and figures all have, say Hair. I tend to organize them by type, hair, buildings, female characters ect... ect. NOT by who made it. So I just don't know who made it. The only way would be to erase everything and reinstall and rename, which is something I'm trying to avoid like the plague :)

Why don't you just thank the creator of the prop/texture etc., when you download it?

As a texture artist who gives away free stuff I regularly search the galleires for mention of my name or my textures. This gives me a better idea of what is being used, and also encourages me to make more stuff. I don't mind if people don't credit for everything in a scene, but certainly larger pieces deserve a little recognition. Please remember that this is all the payment that we freestuff makers ask for in return for hours of work. I think you can bestir yourself that much. Lyrra

I think it boils down to what you feel you 'owe' to someone who's items you've used in your pictures. I generally credit anyone who's freestuff I use, because I consider it 'payback' for their generosity in sharing, not because they helped me create my pics. As for items, I've purchased.... I almost never give credit unless I am majorly impressed with the product. After all he/she got their pat on the back when I punched in my credit card number.

Alleycat said: >> Does it matter if a painter does or doesn't stretch and gesso his own canvas? Does it make him less of an artist if he doesn't mix his own pigments, or make his own brushes? Whether we build the geometries or create the textures has no bearing on what we make with them. << Exactly. The underlying point is critical: Division of labor is the source of progress, in art, science, or business. If we operate under the assumption that our products are only valid if we build everything from scratch, we simply won't get anywhere. We would be stuck in the Stone Age, as happens in countries where organized business is culturally or politically stifled. I find myself thinking here about the recent foofaraw over plagiarism by popular historians, which led to a sort of blackball against Ambrose and Goodwin. In that field precise credits matter above all... but this just acknowledges, without quite saying it openly, that historians don't create anything new. Writers who do create new thoughts, and artists who create new scenes and emotions, don't need to worry so much about precise placement of the quotation marks and footnotes!

PS: or linefeeds either, I hope!

Credits are gracious and appreciated but should never be considered mandatory. The Galleries are about you and your artwork - not me and my product. But credits are nice. "Keep it simple. Render happy" Anton Kisiel

If I use a free piece, I of course credit it, am I as obligated to credit a piece that I have purchased, and have bought the legal right to use in finished images?? Well, that's nice that most of us agree that crediting freestuff is a good thing to do. I appreciate it when people do that cos that's the only way I know my freebies are being used at all, or if it's just a waste of my time and bandwidth and I shouldn't bother making anymore! So if you like something and want more of it, definitely credit, credit, credit! :) As for purchased items, I don't think you should feel obliged to do so. Credit if you feel like it... eg if you think an item was particularly crucial and virtually saved your life on a project? :) Just like with everyday work... if you work with other people that is. :) But for the purpose of giving feedback to the creator, they can get feedback privately (email them) or just by how many units of the item they are selling. You shouldn't feel obliged to credit them under every artwork :)

I think crediting everyone can too easily result in a list so long as to become ludicrous so I almost never do. As for commercial items I think the vendor is much more interested in my money than a credit line. By giving them my money I have given the highest compliment necessary. As for free stuff, well what compliment could be higher than actually using it? None the less, I realize that many do not feel this way so I almost never use anything but commercial models or those I have created myself. As a side note, in the past I have given away a few models. My "license" was extremely explicit in stating you could do anything you wanted with it, even sell it. It also specifically stated that no credit was necessary or expected. What I have done on some of my sites is to inlcude a "blanket" page specifically itemizing the software products or model vendors I have used. I included a "thank you" line for those who offered their goods for free. - Jack Valero

I have a total of several thousand combined downloads of my products (Free or retail) I have only seen 2...maybe 3 credits ever givin in the galleries for any of my products. So I wiuld say very few people really feewl the "need" to give any credit. Just my observation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against giving credit. Consider it more a curiosity on my part. Look in the photography forum. No long lists. 2D, Comics. No lists. What is it about the Poser medium that makes it so different? "Artists" don't credit the paintbrushes, paints, gesso, canvas, the fruit growers and table builders and .... Do we feel guilty as a collective? Is it some sort of compensation for not picking up a pencil instead of picking up a mouse? Deep thoughts for a night before my first physical therapy sesssion, I guess. I'm looking for a distraction.

Actually, in the photo Gallery...I did list. Minolta XD11, with a 110mm lens, and Fuji 800 film.

As for free stuff, well what compliment could be higher than actually using it? I agree! But if you want the creator to KNOW you used it, in renderosity gallery in particular, you have to type their name in somewhere so they can find it. There are hundreds of pictures a day, how do you find one where someone used your stuff? Unless your stuff is big bold and front center of the picture, it's usually hard to find... :)

The thing is that in photography and painting you are hardly ever using the result of someone elses artistic vision. If I was paid for the items I have made freely available I wouldn't mind not being mentioned - but since I am not I think you can write one quick line acknowledging the fact that someone else spent a month painting that skin texture by hand, thank you very much. BTW I have collected all the images I have found with my textures in them and plan on using them in my professional portfolio (after receiving permission from the renderers). So it might be good for you too. Lyrra

You know, the more I think about it the more I realize that I must actually agree with Lyrra. Those who give their work freely probably should be credited, which of course is why I tend to avoid free stuff- too much work for someone as lazy and disorganized as I. In the end I just find it easier to do the thing myself. But, playing the devil's advocate, if a credit is expected then the item is not truly given away freely. It is just that the payment is a credit line instead of money. A gift with strings attached is not a gift. Perhaps it would be best if those who want credit simply ask for it when the item is distributed. Or maybe they do. I guess I'd have to dl some stuff to find out. Of course, such a stipulation might mean that fewer people would use the item. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing would have to be decided by the original creator. Of course, I am not criticizing those who desire credit. It really is a personal matter. As an aside, I disagree that photographers or painters rarely use the results of other's visions. Whether we are aware of it or not we are constantly influenced by the work of others who have gone before us. It is inevitable that we take a little bit here, a little bit there and while so doing add a little bit of ourselves as well. I suppose in our dim, distant past there might have been a single artist who started it all. But ever since we have been stealing from each other and I doubt that will ever change. - Jack

A gift with strings attached is not a gift. Someone once gave me a marionette...for a gift. Sorry :)

A gift with strings attached is not a gift. lol where have i heard that before? yes, that is correct. most of the "freestuff" can be classified as cash free, not gifts. and i think we agree there's nothing wrong with that? we only run into problems when people don't like this fact. i haven't seen true "giftstuff" yet. but then that could be because i ASSUME all the "freestuff" should be credited, whether they asked for it or not - that's just me :) if i am to use a freestuff commercially, whether the person asked for it or not, i will ask permission first. again that's just me :) Perhaps it would be best if those who want credit simply ask for it when the item is distributed. Or maybe they do. I guess I'd have to dl some stuff to find out. Not many do... Personally, I have typed in my readmes: "Credit is optional and appreciated where given." :)

lol@EA :D by the way, for me this credit thing has come full circle. i am giving away my new "freestuff" (read: cash free stuff) only to those i have noticed are actually using my stuff. and who have i noticed using my stuff? the people who have been typing my name in credits. that's the only way i find them! i can't read minds... sigh ;) (yep, IM's are going out, you know who you are... or will soon. ;) )

So, the next "free stuff" item will be a marionette prop for woody?

Sorry guys got a little steamed there for no good reason :) Usually I'm a little calmer 'bout this sort of thing. What I can say is I go out of way for people that have taken thr trouble to credit my work, and especially those that email me. If you don't want to, or can't for whatever reason - feel free not to. shrug that is your right I suppose. When crediting I tend to mention the big obvious stuff - or at least mention the filename if I've lost the authors name. And more than once the maker has written me to remind me :) April New toys? Hair for 'gender is a construct' Stephanie? Mike's TG 'sister'? :) Doesn't it just kill ya after you remapped him to take Vic's stuff? :) (that was you right?) Lyrra

I think it stems from the old early days when there was little free stuff about and folks where so glad to get stuff they sang about it LOL, from that it just became the "normal" thing to do...that and the way poser is more of a tight community than some of the other mediums....a reason to rejoice i'd say :o).....Steve

It is useful to some people to know what objects were used in a scene, just from a technical standpoint. Personally when I do start to post I will credit anything I feel added to my work. In the case of bought items if it helps the vendor get another sale then great. Renderosity is a community so credits cab be another way to help your fellow members.

Dunno, really. If an item or figure is not something you see everyday (say ferinstance I used Thorne's very unique faerie, like I did at my wee Open Art site), then yeah, I certainly go out of my way to give credit. How I give credit for non-commercial renders? Well, it depends on how prominent the items are, and how vital they are to conveying the image message, how unique they are WRT other, similar meshes. It's like this: Say I did a render of RMS Titanic going down; we're in the Grand Staircase, and all Hell is breaking loose, with stuff flying everywhere. If the focus of the render is the horrified look on a woman's face, then whoever helped get her together for me to finish will get more credit than, say, the creator of a potted plant mesh flying across the background. Whoever built the staircase scene (if it wasn't me - I'd been threatening to build one) will also get the lion's share of the credit as well, since it frames the image. It's all a matter of proportion... although the artist who built the plant put no less work and effort into their creation than the artist who built the character (oftentimes the prop artists work harder, but that's just my wee bias), unless that's where the focus of the picture lies there's no sense in going nuts trying to credit every little piece in your render. I mean, everyone knows what Vicky's basic geometry looks like, so why bother crediting DAZ every time you post an image of her? Now, if you used a certain character as a base for further creative energies, then it would be more appropriate to credit whoever made the character. Example - if the character in an image you do is a combination of Vicky + Dark Whisper's 'Nicole' char & tex, and then you added morphs atop that, then wouldn't it be more appropriate to give DW credit than to DAZ? (don't get me wrong - DAZ does great stuff, just that if you're going to credit someone, it's usually kinder to help the little guys out.) Bah - I'm turning into a windbag. I'll shaddap now. /P

I like to give credits as a way of thanking people for particularly nice items they have given away, but I don't feel obliged to do so every time I use it or for everything I use (cataloguing the creator of every texture would be a nightmare). If people use props of mine in a picture and give me credit, I like that, but if they don't, I don't get worked up about it either. I'm just happy that my props were of some use.

I've got things that have no readme files, no indication anywhere as to who made them and even if I went through my 11 CD's of zip files, I still would have no indication as to the authors of some of those items since the zips were named things like "hair09" etc. And since I organize my files by type and model (hair-vicky, hair-mike, clothes-P4Fem, etc.) there's no way to determine the author(s) without a readme. Sooo...I credit what I can remember when I feel it's warranted. Things that are totally obvious - Vicky, Mike, items from the clothing packs, and so on, don't get credit since I presume that most everyone knows what they are and where to get them. Anyone that doesn't know, and wants to find out where I got them just has to ask. Kate (who only keeps track of what she can and can't use commercially)

"The thing is that in photography and painting you are hardly ever using the result of someone elses artistic vision."

But that texture also requires someone elses artistic vision as did the mesh that the texture was created for, etc, etc. It's a never ending subject. :-)

I think crediting is a good idea especially in galleries. I personally try only to download and purchase items that allow commercial renders simply because I don't want to keep track of separate folders or have to track down someone who's moved web addresses etc. If a readme file states "personal use only" I don't extract it.
Daz's free models for example, while I don't feel it necessary to "credit" what I buy, they have the same terms for their free models as they do their purchases. They offer the free models knowing they will gain customers that way and it works for me. :-) If nothing else people may want to know where they can find certain items. I know if I paint a texture I like to mention it.

But if I were to put together an image for use on a t-shirt, for example, using only items that allow for that or my own textures etc, I don't feel the need for a list of credits. :-)
If you can, you should. If nothing else credit the main focus items.

hey - since when am I a little guy ;-)

hehe - sorry I had to use you as an example... Nicole was the first item that popped into my head :) /P