I've been asking a lot of "basic questions" lately, and a certain person loves to tell me to "read the manual." I happened to remember a recent question about how to import a 3DS file into Poser. So I dug out the manual. Guess what? I was again reminded just how shallow, and unhelpful the Poser manual really is. There was one page of the subject, and it provided absolutely no clue or insight into what choices to make, etc. In fact, there was no mention of 3DS format, only a brief mention of DXF. The next task for the Poser manual was to find out how to rotate the Document Display Style and Editing tools. Guess what? Most of the workspace documentation talked about the document window. The Poser manual and tutorial have a habit of brushing up to the "meat" of a subject, (the point where you get some good solid information or insights), then either dropping you there, or just wandering away into something entirely different. I encountered this problem a year ago, and discounted the Poser Manual as a source of enlightenment because of that problem. My detractor(s) almost had me convinced I'd somehow missed something, and that I should go back for another look. The problem still remains. The Poser manual might be good for something but it has mostly left me with many unanswered questions. I suggest that someone should take a good honest look at a section of the manual before they criticize someone for asking a question. You're liable to be reminded that the answers really aren't there after all. Ron

usually thhose comes with softwears are not very good, myslef also find questions, not the answers from the manual of poser. So, I hope if there still someone telling another to 'read the manual' please point out which page, which line. it is better?

I think this prblem goes across the board in 3d, maya and vue may be the exception...but with Anthony on board maybe the next version will be better....Steve

I got my new disks from Curious Labs in January-- I bought Poser 4 . . .years ago, before Vicki, and only had the manual, but, fortunately they had the records, by the time the disks arrived I had, of course, lost the manual. So I just winged it with help from looking over shoulders on this forum, various tutorials, by guess and golly. By the time I found the manual, I knew a lot more than was in it-- ok, I was guessing on x, y and z but I was working with them and there's nothing in the manual to tell you x and z get skewed when you turn the model anyway. Waaaaay too much stuff in the manual on animation-- that's cause I don't want to do animation, I'm sure there's not enough for those who do want to do it. And nothing--- zip, zilch nothing on how to use the dials correctly-- just a little short sentence of where they were. Everything on using those pernicious tools that turn figures into corkscrews. I do wish there was a Poser Wow book. Maybe with Poser 5, they could commission one. But I'm thinking, with Poser in one company and the Millenium figures in another, unless they can cooperate, it's not going to happen. But it should. People actually Buy programs when they browse through Wow books. Emily

Lost my manual ages ago, guess its in the house somewhere, unless the dog ate it. Here is normally much more helpful, except for the real basic stuff, which you should have mugged up on when you first got poser. What it needs is one of those dummy books. There just is not a good poser book out there.

Rik schrands book is good, I bought it a couple of months ago and it's helped me when I really sit down to read it. In the end it always comes down to how much time you have to spare, is it quicker to read the manual and find the answer was never there, or post a question here, I know which I'd choose. Rob

I have a few shelves full of "Third Party books" that are far better than the manuals for the software titles they cover. Some of these books are even useful. But in so many ways I've learned far more by coming here to Renderosity and asking questions. And in the end I've tried to share those humble insights with my tutorials. I just received another glowing compliment from someone today. That put a big smile on my face!!!

I got Poser a long time ago, and decided to read the manual without looking at the software, I read it through twice and believe it or not the second time around I did understand it.....didn't really need anything else and what else I needed I read in the tutorial section here and there. Sharen

I keep my Poser manual handy at all times, I take it with me all the time. I was having new tires put on my car and I took it to read (wish i had brought my PC) hehehe... I know need a laptop too.
the manual does wonder off now and then, but sure does beat the "Scam" manual I bought.

Ron look on page 44, and it then refers you to page 166, tells you how to import 3ds. Niles

Yep, I think we just all kind of forgot that you have to READ once in a while...LOL, that is what I always have to tell my customers when I teach computers, sometimes you have to sit back and just read, slowly, and most of them get it.....computers are so fast and such a fury of a race we just forget, but Niles, I did the same thing, went and had to have blood drawn and took my manual along and read it....Sharen

The next task for the Poser manual was to find out how to rotate the Document Display Style and Editing tools. Guess what? Most of the workspace documentation talked about the document window.<<< I was looking for that same info just the other day and guess what? Nothing... or at least I couldn't find it. I agree with you, Ron, the manual leaves a lot to be desired. BTW, did you ever find out how to rotate the Display Style and Editing Tools GUI controls? ;-) Take care and be well. casamerica

but if it wasnt for this comprehensive 364 page Masterpeice.............................

I would not have a clue on how to keep my ink pen
from rolling off the table,

so how about a little GRATITUDE!!!!.

:-)

I too have found the manual a little less than helpful on more than one occasion (I can't remember what I'm using to prop up my bookshelves; I think it's Sartre's Existentialism and Humanism), and there's quite a lot I've had to discover (like that skewing of the z and x axes upon rotation of the model) that it really would have been helpful had the manual told me that it would be the case. I, however, am a fairly patient person; I worked through the tutorials (boring as anything), read the whole manual cover to cover (even the bits on animating, which I knew I wouldn't be doing), all that... I have a lot of patience for people who can't be bothered to do that, and need a little more in depth help with something they want to achieve, step by step, rather than work through six not very well documented parts of a manual to begin to get a handle on how to do it. I've learned a lot more from the tutorials online and from personal help people have offered than from the manual, really. There's nothing like having a mentor.

BTW, did you ever find out how to rotate the Display Style and Editing Tools GUI controls? ;-) Alt-click even changes the background image...

Niles, I followed that useless route and still don't know how to import. I need all the details and strategies. I need to know just how to import a room and have everyone fit. I need to know just how to import that SAMS3D saloon table to Mike can sit at the table, without needing a ladder, etc.

Ron, I looked up "imorting" in the index of my Poser Manual (Metacreations Version) Page 47 list all supported file formats names and applications. Pages 166 and 167 of describe the import process. Listing all supported file types... and running you through a step by step process. It also explains what all those import settings are for. Honestly... Poser 3 was the 2nd 3d application that I ever started playing with (Bryce 3d was the first). The manuals have been helpful most of the time. One area I thought that was hard to understand was the "group" tool in Poser4. So like you, I wrote a tutorial. Doug

"imorting?" yeah, I meant "Importing"... funny.

heh maybe we should post images of what we truely use the manual for. Now for people telling you the RTFM, I have just a few things to say about that. If someone comes in asking how to import a character or somesuch then it's not RTFM, it's open the manual to the tutorial and do that, it will show you all the basics. Once you go through the tut I feel the manual really drops off in the usefullness catagory. Anyone asking a question that is beyond the basic tutorial in there deserves an answer.

I followed Sharen's method and carried the manual around...read it two or three times before I got started, understood it a bit better each time through. But hey...what do I know??..I always thought it was Ron making the quips about "read the manual, do your homework...etc"....LOL And Ron..you can put me in that catagory of people who think your tutorials are GREAT!!...and much appreciated..:) Beav

been my experience that 3rd party manuals usually do a better job of explaining the program, not just for 3d but for any program. I'm glad I have doxygen for linux, it takes all comments in the source code and creates documentation for the application. if the programmers comment the source code properly you have a very good base for a manual then. I know that seems strange, but with standardised formatting for writing applications, it actually does 3/4 the work of laying out the manual. ( html format) open the result in a text editor and polish the contents until a usefull manual. to bad it isn't available to M$ developers huh, then cl could easily produce an excellent, usefull manual

Beav1, thanks for the compliment. I never tell people to read the manual. I know it stinks, and I rarely waste my time reading it. I do sometimes tell people they really should take a minute to skim through the Poser Forum Messages, or look in the FAQ before they ask questions. Hell, why not use the resources that are there for us? *** Again, I've looked over the manual, and there is no detail about the import process at all. There are some "general and multi-purpose" instructions. There is no step-by-step illustrated procedure. It's kind of funny that anyone would imply I didn't know what I saw. I started out this thread by assuring you that I've been looking at the manual today. My recollections have been borne out by today's fruitless search.

There is an advanced techiques manual available through teh CL's site. Again though it is fairly basic in its appriach

Ron, Tell me what your problem is with importing 3ds. john

I've worked with every version of Poser since P1, and I always read the manual, and still refer to P4's occasionally (in spite of all the new developments since it was published). Something that doesn't even register with you at one stage because you just don't know enough, can turn out to be a useful nugget of info (or even a real ah-ha!) later. I often write individual answers to questions, but sometimes it makes more sense to point to a specific manual page, especially if they just aren't understanding the answers or obviously need to spend time on the basics. Whatever works.

Well... Finally a thread on this subject! First of all, I am indeed aware of numerous issues with the Poser 4 manual. I would hope you agree with my assessment that the Pro Pack manual I wrote represents a huge leap in quality terms from its predecessors and hope to continue that trend moving forward. If you disagree, I need to know about it; see below. Second, I am involved in a total from-scratch rewrite of the Poser documentation. Now, while I understand your gripes about the current doc set, I did post a thread here some months back asking for community input and giving instructions how to make sure I saw that input. None was forthcoming. I'm doing my utmost to make each future Poser documentation cycle better than the last, and I'd love your "real world" input. But I can't act on your input unless I get it. And now I have that much less time to act on any input I do receive. It's a two way street, folks. In general terms, the rewrite includes a chapter discussing basic 3D concepts beginning with defining 3D space, Cartesian coordinates, global vs.local coordinates, splines, polygons, groups, materials, animation, etc. In essence, it's a quick and dirty intro to 3D concepts. I am building a tutorial to follow that chapter that will walk people through a couple of scenes. The remainder of the manual is a reference-style doc that walks users through each little UI element in what I believe to be a very logical order. I am specifically trying to avoid going too much into detail about how something can be used from an artistic standpoint and concentrating on the technical apsects of the functionality. I am also eliminating lots of redundancy. Overall, the info in the new manual has far beeter "grouping" of information 2ith gobs of cross-references to related topics. I really hope you'll like what I'm coming up with. I cannot discuss the end purpose behind this project, nor can I discuss timelines, etc. so please don't ask! Sorry. So here it is again: If you have any SPECIFIC input on how the docs can be improved, please email docs@curiouslabs.com. Please do NOT simply reply to this post as I may not see it in time. I will personally review all feedback I receive and will act on as much of it as I can. If you don't give me feedback now, don't come back later when your pet topic isn't covered as well as you'd like! :-). The more detail you provide, the better. And, if you go above and beyond and include an explanation of what and how you think your topic should be covered, I'll take that as well. The more the merrier. Lastly, the sooner I see your input, the more time I have to devote energy to it. I'd also appreciate any constructive GENERAL feedback on the comparative levels of perceived quality between the P4 and Pro Pack docs (and by the way, the decision to go PDF had been made before I joined CL). Far from fishing for compliments I'm trying to get a sense of how my work is being received so I know what works and what doesn't. Again, docs@curiouslabs.com. I'm doing my best and really hope it shows! :-) Anthony Hernandez Documentation Manager Curious Labs

gryffnn, You're absolutely right. Reading most manuals do nothing for you the 1st time thru, because you need to experience whatever it is or the terminology goes right by you. It's that way with ANY kinda training, not just computer software. At GM, we used to have the new machine operators read the manual for three days before they ever set foot on a die-cast machine. Then someone finally realized that they didn't understand a word of it. 'Course, that doesn't do much for Ron's problem, and he's right...like most manuals, it assumes at times that you know more than you might. I favor the ones that take the "this is a bat, this is a ball" approach and assume you know nothing. The times that they talk down to me are made up for by all the times I DO know nothing...ok...most times. heh heh Beav

You know I'd like to add something. As much as I appreciate all the info I get here, I can sometimes have the same problem with somea the answers. I get the question...but the answer goes over my head. (adjust THIS....tweak THAT....and I don't always know where or even what this or that is)...but I keep trying to...:) Beav

I tried to import the Sams3d Saloon, ... it is OBJ, but you import it the same:

1. Go to "File"
2. Select "import"
3. pick the "type" of file you want to import
4. New window opens for you search for the file you want to import (the folder you saved it in)
5. New Window "Prop Import Options"
   Click the options you want
   6.Click OK
   **** NOTE**** try 50-70% for the table, you might have to rescale it after it loads
   Niles

Now THAT is a good step-by-step Niles...:) Beav

I have both manuals for poser and the real answers to many of my questions are in the notes and printed threads I have from this and other sites. Even if It's not something I am doing now, I will print out an informative thread and save it for future reference. I don't believe answers to things like, how to get rid of Vicky's ugly eyebrows are covered in either manual. I have still not figured out how to import a morph target downloaded from freebies and have it work. Being on a Mac in this case may be part of the problem.

start with a picture of the front of a computer with the power button highlighted in the manual? ~g~ while that is insulting for people that are aware of how to use computers, if the manual is written with that basis of lack of understanding, it definately helps with the creation of a usable manual. that is clear on how to accomplish any task with the program.

I've ALSO found that printing out the threads here help me. My folders of them are thicker than the manual...lol Beav

Attached Link: http://www.ronknights.com/

Nosfiratu, I didn't open the Pro Pack manual until today and that was purely due to your responce here. Over-all it is decent but some things are still left grey. Purely reading the manual I was looking at boning a figure. You basically state that you import a bone structure then add, resize, delete, or remove the necessary bones yet there is no explaination on how to do so. This is one of the areas it is lacking in. Your current idea of laying out the new manual with general concepts first then running through the interface in a 'logical' manner seem on track. Logical for one person of course may not be for another, but this is a definate improvement. Now take this one step further, remember those interface folup plates that came with the standard version? How about including one of those but also have perhaps a chapter reference or page number where that menu item can be found. This gives a quick graphical 'Table of Contents' for the user. Need to know about that menu option? Look at it on the tip in and find the page in the manual it can be found on. Now one complaint about the Pro pack manual. There is no Blank page there! I love the idea of a sticker for the serial number and have always stuck it in the manual itself, usually inside front or back cover. The Pro Pack manual didn't have a blank area except for the outside back cover. The sticker was also slightly larger then the manual so I had to trim it down. Having the sticker on the outside also exposes it to all friction this manual will recieve. Moving it across the desk, sliding it into the bookshelf, or whatever can scar the serial number and perhaps over time make it unreadable. Thankfully it fits in the CD packinging so I can protect it there but it is nice to have a good blank area I can stick it to inside the cover.

Ron, Do you think you could do a tut on "Wrapping Fish with the Poser Manual"? :-)

Ron I taught myself almost everything I know... from manuals and textbooks. I have a degree from UCSD with an Independent Studies Major (where I had to set up my own classes in order to learn what I wished to learn). I learned to crochet and fold origami and read music from manuals. I learned drafting from a couple of textbooks over a weekend (I started the drafting job on the Monday). After Sierra hired me to animate King's Quest 4, I had to learn how to use a computer as well as how to animate. (They loaded a computer into my trunk and said "come back in two weeks". Gulp.) The only thing I know for sure is that I CAN LEARN ANYTHING. (And, at the speed with which knowledge becomes obsolete, this is a very good thing.) Anything... Chaos theory and superstrings. Puzzle design. Tatting. How to build a computer from scratch. Anything. (Except how to sing operatically... but I try.) A person who can't read, can't understand, and can't follow a tutorial, and who is PROUD of his or her ignorance, is just crippling his or herself. The worst of all handicaps is the one which is self-inflicted... and it is not deserving of pity. BTW, just scanning over how to do something usually isn't good enough, you actually have to do the steps as you read them. It reinforces what you are reading. Grokking only works for Martians. Carolly

Barbarelleny, The Millennium figures were designed by another company after Poser 4 and its manual were released... so it would be surprising indeed if information on making the upper brow invisible was covered. (Or this could be a handy way to discover what 3rd parties were going to be inventing! ;^) ) Kozaburo's hair, Anton's bodyhandles, Colm's MAT poses are all 3rd party innovations, and too recent to be covered. Hmmm... if we see something in the P5 manual about radial symmetry or fluid dynamics, and can't find an application, we'll know something is brewing besides coffee! Carolly

Sharon and Niles, LOL! Yes, I've carried the Bryce manual around to mechanic's and doctor's offices. (It doesn't work in the dentist's office though.) A packet of Post-It Notes helps, too. It is easier to learn from scratch if I have one hand on the mouse, but for filling in the gaps or chasing down a problem, it is a good way to use the time. I can often find answers to other questions, too. :) Carolly

Nosfiratu, In order to make the manual intelligible to all users, you may have to limit yourself to a 200-word vocabulary (each word precisely defined). May I recommend poetry with a simple rhyme scheme (such as couplets) to reinforce the learning process? "Is it an object or is it a figure? Know when to parent and when to configure!" "Move those lights! Make them mobile If you want a glow that's global." With enough repetition, you won't have to use words of just one syllable in order to reach all readers. Maybe. They'll still have to read it. Carolly

LOL!!!!

LOL !!!!!

hauks, did you have a hand in writting the Dr. Sues guide to tech support?

Oh, PL-EASE!!!

Huh??? Where did Carolly attack Ron? I do not see an attack in her comments. But..hey, if the cap fits wear it.

Ron, It seems to me you took her statement out of context. Personally I do't think this was an attack on you. Let me explain. Let's say a person does not know how to read, not because of any disability but rather from choice, just can't get up the gumption to take the time to learn. Should we have pity on this person for not being literate? No, it is thier choice. Take this one step further, if someone is told to go to the manual and they completly refuse not to, should we have pity on this person? Once again the answer is no, if they can't spend the few minutes it takes to get some basic info before we go into detial then they are not deserving of the detial. Keep in mind she mentioned that they have to be proud of this fact. Anyone not proud usually has the desire and drive to work at correcting the problem but other issues may be involved such as an under-developed mind, or simply lack of reference when trying to explain a situation. Those willing to try should be giving the assitance or pity the 'disability' deserves.

Over the past year, I've asked a multitude of "dumb questions," received some excellent help, and been referred to the manual, and to some tutorials. I've repeatedly stated that I found the Poser manually very unhelpful, yet I've been repeatedly told to refer to the manual. I've decided to become a part of the solution rather than a part of the problem. That means I produce tutorials to help others. The tutorials cover what I've learned, and are geared towards newbies, rather than experts. At the same time I've shared my children's poetry with the Poser community, since I've illustrated my poetry using Poser. I don't know everything, but that doesn't keep me from sharing what I've learned. Some here will dispute that fact. I've put up with numerous "digs" by certain people here, in many different threads, when I ask questions. I've mostly just decided to ignore those snide comments, and move on. I started this thread in answer to those who persist in chanting "read the manual, all will be answered." I was pleased by the number of people who agree with me. I know from experience, with other software, that good quality manuals are hard to find. **** I'm a very simple person. I read the words, and know their meaning. It doesn't matter if my name is not in the statements. They were made in response to me, to this thread. People who can't read wouldn't be reading this thread. Now maybe we can stop the snide comments and continue with a productive conversation?! Ron

I took a series of computer courses at one of the local training centers based out of a state university and the instructor made a specific comment that user manuals for almost all programs are very poorly written. He said if anyone has a talent for writing good, clear instructions, they would easily find a good job with a computer software company writing manuals. For a long time, I've jokingly referred to the Poser User Guide as the "Useless Guide" because it's just that, completely USELESS!!! I've read it, reread it, and re-reread it, and the topics discussed leave out vital informaiton, the tutorials miss steps, it's a joke. I haven't even seen my manual in probably a year. It's misplaced somewhere in the piles of books I have in my bedroom. I totally agree with Ron. The user manual for Poser give no constructive information at all. That was one of the first things I noticed about it when I first got Poser. I've learned almost everything I know about Poser, and after probably 5 years of using various upgrades of it (I still don't know it all), from the forums, other people's tutorials, asking questions of other users, and just plain old experimentation. The Useless Manual that comes with Poser is just excess baggage and not worth the paper it's printed on. I spent exhaustive hours trying to find information in it and, when I did find the topic, it fell far short of what I needed to know. In many cases, it just defined what the word meant, but gave no instructions on how to do it. Now, wolf359 has the right idea there. I guess it's good for something. LOL Melanie

One amusing thing I've noticed about the manual (well, at least in the older ones like Poser 3 ~ I haven't bothered to read the Poser 4 one much because I really didn't need it) is that you can tell where they copied and pasted sections in later parts of the book, because the same typos are repeated. The fact is, they really didn't put much time or thought into the manual. I think it was slapped together in a hurry by the people who knew Poser inside out (those who created the program) and didn't consider that someone who had never seen Poser wouldn't know the first thing about it. I hope Poser 5 will have a completely new manual that isn't just a reprint of the old one with the new stuff added. Melanie

LOL Carolly, love those comments. Me too I learned everything I know about CGA from manuals and tuts on the net. In fact I was taught to use pc's second hand from my eldest, when he was doing computer studies for O level (not sure what your equivalent is) Then I went on from there. Never got any formal training. But EXPERIMENTATION and people here got me to where I am now. Just never found the poser book all that helpful when it gets past basics. But please Ron, you are a friend, and so is Carolly. I must have missed a post because it doesn't appear on my screen, but believe you me Carolly doesn't mince words, but she never attacks people. She doesn't mince words, but she doesn't attack people.

IMHO people attack the manual, any manual actually, because they like to pick out what is missing and complain about it. People with that mindset often don't recognize the valuable information that is there. No book can explain everything. If you need hand-holding, hire a tutor. ...Or, if something isn't explained, just do it. Try different settings 'til it works.

Show me a tech writer who can write a manual without knowing the program and I'll show you a marketing executive :-)