hello ladies and gents and happy new year to all, I've been a member here for quite some time and I read most of the posts here and look at every image at the gallery. One of the popular comments either here or at the vue gallery is the issuse of "post work" and that being most peoples nightmare here, I want your opinions on this subject. Why is post work considered as "evil"? What does the term "post-work" mean to you? I cannot ask for your opinion without stating mine first. To me, the whole concept of "art" is important no matter in which medium you use - wether it be photography, digital imagery, traditional art, muisic, film etc. Art is a way of expressing feelings and also method of showing what you are capable of doing. Van Gogh is an artist. He shares his feelings and emotions with us and also shows of what he is capable of doing with his god-given talent. In the digital arena, we are given a lot of tools to create art. Vue is one of them. I use Vue to express my feelings, emotions and even just being plain silly. It doesn't matter. I create the images based on how I feel. I use photoshop to do my post work because I've been using ps for 4 years, got my certification and I pretty much know the program inside out. Same for Vue. You cannot express your feelings without knowing your choice of programs inside out. I want to create images that says something about me, that shows my moods and I do not consider post work as "evil". I look at the final image, the final work. It doesn't matter if you add some effects or leave it as it is right out of the renderer. I create my images using Vue, I post them in the Vue gallery. I am not here to show how powerful Vue render engine is. That is the job of the people at e-on software. That is marketing. I am interested in the final work. The Art. Take a look at rohi's outstanding gallery. Should we not call him an artist because he uses all different programs to create his art? http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Y&Artist=rohi Regards, Ozan

Isn't post work merely like a jeweller polishing a gem?

we have a Vue forum here - thats why i always try to avoid post work. Even alpha planes i find "inaceptable" - these things make the whole thing much too easy. One thing i am interested in is to do interesting things with the (limited) possibilities of a software package. For your type of art there is a gallery called mixed medium. I agree with you that under the point of view of art it shouldn't be important with what medium something is produced. It's the result that counts. But the most interesting aspect here is, to find out what is possible with this specific sort of software. Therefore: no post work!

I think the problem is traditional art. I for the life of me, can NOT draw. I have no natural drawing abilities what so ever. So unless the program can do it, I can't have it done.

Post work is in most cases allowing people to turn computer generated images into works of art that looks like traditional hand drawn art work. Look at winners of many contests, or the ones that get the best comments. 9/10 times it is those who can draw in the traditional sense and turns their poser figures or 3ds scenes into works that look like it is NOT done on a computer(like drawn hair, or wind blow clothes, or clouds or mist etc).

We have all this high tech gear and it seems like everybody is turning the goal of it to look like classic hand drawn art, instead of what the future of what art can be.

This is a problem most have with post work. You need to be a good 'classic' artist to do it and usually the end result is making sure your picture does not look computer generated, and most can't do this. And if you don't do the post work, and it doesn't look like classic hand drawn or a photograph, it is not thought of as good. :)

I am NOT against post work, but I do think people tend to overlook those who do things that don't fit the classic hand drawn look and put those who can do hand drawn post work on pedestals as the great artists. :)

wabe: now my question is "what is mixed medium?" we all, at some point, import other objects created in different programs. It can be a 3ds file created in 3d studio, a lighwave object and most popularly a poser object. Doesn't it make the image a "mixed medium" when you import a poser figure complete with textures and everything into vue? aren't you "mixing" poser with Vue? if you are looking for "pure vue" images, then shouldn't one use the objects, terrains, trees etc that comes with the program and in that program only? It seems like there is a great deal of misunderstanding and confusion.

To put my cards on the table at the outset: I am against post-work of any kind.

However; with that said, let me qualify. My love of 3D modeling is aimed toward animation...and I want to see the impossible done in the program. I think the perfect comment under an image would be: "I was going to fix this detail in post, but figured out a way to do in the render." Because with a ten second animation @ 24fps, you can't go in and fix something on all 240 frames.

On the other hand: if your interest is a single stand-alone image, then anything goes. For example, I do illustrations in colored pencil. Sometimes, if the colors go wrong, and I need to backtrack, I'll mix a very thin slurry of white oil paint in turpentine and apply as many layers as I need to tone back an area. [The pencils are water soluble so I can't use opaque watercolors.]

Basically, I see the whole issue as two camps with different aims: Illustrators and Animators.

In response to shred300: I wouldn't call something made up of a Lightwave object/ Carrara object/ Strata object in a Vue landscape "mixed-media" because you can render, then shift the camera and render again, and it's the same scene.

It's the prescence of 'post' itself that changes it over to a mixed-media.

Part of the question that you posed was: "Why is post considered as 'evil'?" The implication is that somehow, post is 'cheating'. It's a way of covering up your mistakes and shortcomings. Which, definitely, it is not. Just depends on where you're going with the end product.

Attached Link: http://www.the3dscene.com

Well, I find post work totally acceptable. At the end of the day it is the final image that is most important...not how you get there. If you think post work is evil, then I feel that you should also consider using other peoples models and other peoples textures as evil, infact anything created outside the program as a no go. Without post work you would not have any of the great animations and movies that are about. In my mind restrictions are bad for creative juices, and it is only the artist that suffers. Now after saying all of that have a look at my art, you may be surprised to find very little post work. Kelly said: "Because with a ten second animation @ 24fps, you can't go in and fix something on all 240 frames." Sorry Kelly, but you can...Adobe After Effects is one app amongst many. Thanks for listening, Cheers

I think it's fine. Some things are impossible to do and if they where possible then maybe it would not be fine but we would not be able to afford the program in the first place if it was. Well seems like if you have ever done any you can't win AOM ha ha so might as well do it now ! I used to think that it was evil almost now I don't care. If people do postwork fine ,I don't care, Hopefully it improves the image.

Everything is fake anyway so it no big deal. Only e-on need to concern itself with post work. I'm not selling there program I'm using it to do things I want to with it. If I use postwork to get that effect who cares. As long as I get the image I'm looking for I don't really care.

I think till all of us get over this little hump we short ourselves as artists really. We can only grow to the program and never exceed it. That's old. Look at anyone who has got some where. Look in a art book, Do you think they care if you know they did post work. If postwork is bad then using other peoples meshes has got to be way worse IMHO. Hey looky the art I created! I'm a artist! Every single part by LEGO no postwork ! Who cares get over it ! Postwork has its place, it's a tool. like all the rest of the tools and meshes we use.

The final art is all I look at. I don't care how it was constructed. This isn't a contest here, there is no rules. It's about learning and sharing your visions with others. Leave the rules to the contests. BTW putting your name on the image is probibly postwork. Who cares get over it.

I agree with shred300, Cheers, and MightyPete. There are inherent limitations with any 3d rendering program, whether it's Vue, Bryce, Poser, or pricier alternatives. I use postwork sparingly, most of the time, to clean up joint bends on Poser figures, or to add a bit to the hair. I also sometimes do some level adjustment, tweak lighting, or crop in PS6/PSP7. I don't personally care for the constant overuse of gaussian blur and some other lighting stuff, because too often it overpowers the image itself. But I don't think just because one uses PS, for example, to enhance your render, it's "evil". My late father, who passed away in October, was an artist; degree from Art Institute of Chicago, the whole shebang. He drew, painted, sculpted, worked in stained glass, cast metal, all sorts of things. And he would sometimes combine metal with plaster or glass, found objects with cast metal, would do collages of all kinds. His philosophy was 'whatever helps you to get your art where you want it to be'. If you're a "purist", and only take your render straight out of the engine, so to speak, and post it...that's great. If you can figure out how to do some of the stuff just in Vue that I haven't learned yet, that's great too. But as I respect your work and accomplishments with the tool(s) you use, I ask for the same respect in return. And I disagree quite strongly that anyone who is not a "purist" in their given program should be booted out and into a different forum or gallery.

Bellini, Michelangelo, D'Vinci, Parrish, Escher, Dali all would laugh out loud at "purists" for refusing to use the right tool for the right job. Different sized chisels and brushs are evil ? But I will defend a purists right to have fascist proclivities when it comes to art as well as speech.

While I do have some experience in theatrical lighting and effects, which does help, I was not a classic artist or traditional artist before getting into digital art. I've had no formal training, so have had to learn everything from basically scouring books, manuals, tutorials, bugging other artists, etc, and most of all, just plain old trial and error. For all my 3D images from the time I got Vue, I always render the image in Vue, even my Poser works. However, because I am "guilty" of the 3D/2D combination or the postwork I have done, that I feel in most cases that I shouldn't post in Vue, for that reason. When I do post in Vue, I do so because I think a part or the whole image would be of interest to the Vue community in some aspect. Labyrinth, for instance, was originally designed to showcase making a terrain out of a black/white maze. Many asked me how it was done and I was glad to share. But it did have a painted owl. I had an owl model I could have used in the image, but the artistic side of me, wasn't happy without how it looked, and so I painted the owl. Except in animation situations like Kelley said, I don't see the difference of which way I went. Restrictions should be frowned upon rather than embraced. I am all for learning everything that one should about the renderer itself. After all, it often can create what would take an artist forever to do (such as calculating real world shadows and light play) and getting it to do that extra special thing can be very rewarding. But sometimes in order to stay real to your vision and/or practicality (spending two weeks to build a model or 5 minutes painting something for instance in a still image), one should consider postwork part of the art. It's funny, but I used to say that I couldn't do postwork, but after reading and such, and practicing, I realized I can and I think anyone can really if they spend time to practice... ShadowWind

PS: I think that postwork should only be used to enhance the elements that come out of the renderer. I'm a firm believer in creating the tone and the main elements in the image in the renderer. Spending time to get the right atmospheres, reflections, scene setups, lighting effects, are instrumental in making sure that image come alive. And then using postwork to touch up and enhance that image where the renderer cannot...

The part that I always seem to postwork is the part where object meet the ground. Vue just can't get it right even if both objects have the same material. You can see the line where the two objects meet. It looks awfull so I usually blend it a bit or paint some moss or grass over the area. I always take the material from the render anyway. This is a pointless discustion really cause there is alpha plains in Vue and with them you can do anything. Got news for the purists' it's all fake. These are not photos and even those can be edited now endlessly. Like I make meshes and textures for them and I postwork them to death really then I render them and post work them some more if they need it. Thing is If I didn't use vue to do the render I wouldn't call it vue art. But then again look at my planes I made. Even the picture is not rendered in Vue. Only some of the textures where made in Vue. Thing is without Vue I would have had more problems making them. I like that, the right tool for the job idea. I can see all the purists using phillips screw drivers till hell freezes over when robertson type are way better for the job at hand. I always get a chuckle when I see people struggle with phillips. Like something easy like hanging a fan on the ceiling. Or sticking them in wood. or with a drill, it's funny really. The sound of the drill taking the head off when it slips. It's funny. Even on tv when they make stuff on those shows you can hear them strip the heads off.

I really think we are mixing two different questions here? 1. Is postwork cheating and bad? 2. Should postwork be used in the Vue forum? My own answers too the questions would be: Number one is easy..NO.. it's not cheating as the only thing that matters is the end result. Number two is harder and if I have to chose I would say NO because in this forum I want to se and learn what can be done with Vue alone. Problem is that I also want to see all the greate images in witch Vue maybe only stands for parts of the image. It might be that there is a mixed media gallery but If I only want to se those in witch Vue has been used then what? Why not just clearly state if postwork is used or not and maybe for what it has been used (posting both images would be even greater)? That way I know witch ones that I can use as a reference on what can be done in Vue alone as well as learning the week parts. In other forums I might see it in a different way. As an example. I can say that I do NOT like to se images without postwork in the Poser forum. And the reason for this is simply that in maybe 90% of the images everyone knows exactly whats been done in the postwork as the ugly joints in Poser simply has to be fixed in post work together with so mutch else as the renderer also is really bad. And as an answer to someone wondering if it's not wrong to use models not built in Vue. As the whole idea behind an application as Vue is to import models as well as other stuff such as textures and do renders, there is nothing wrong with importing models,etc ;). If vue could not do this Vue would not exist (at least not in the form we know it). Just my 5 cents

very very academic discussion! My answer was only - i don't care with wich methods an image is done - it's the quality that counts. BUT In a Vue forum - as HellBorn said - i want to see (mainly) Vue images. To learn wat is possible, to show what i am able to do with this program etc etc. If nothing matters, why not posting Bryce images here? Or Maya or whatever. Photos from our little kittens? The discussion wether it is possible or not to use others than Vue objects is very strange. Vue allows to import things so importing objects is part of the deal. Well, alpha planes are on the border line, because there you are mostly leaving the 3D world. I personally don't like them, but i accept others who uses them and come to nice results. Walther

I've nothing against any kind of postwork either. But sometimes Vue images in the gallery are not anymore Vue images. Just images rendered in Vue. Take a Poser figure, render it in Vue and then you may think you have a Vue image. Add some ready made brushes from PSP, Photoshop... and you think you're a Vue artist. This remembers me when i was a child and did this kind of collage on paper, cutting flowers and things from newspapers.... Yes, I know, there are great collage artists out in the world, but we speak about Vue. Vue is such a great software IMHO to create fabulous landscapes and interior scenes, it doesn't need any postwork if it is well done. I may agree to do some on nude Poser figures inside a Vue image, sometimes you need to repair the bending parts. They are not perfect in Poser either. But why add brushes with flowers if you can get free flowers all over the web and create your own to use in Vue? Why transform a Vue atmosphere with heavy postwork? Of course, this can be art, but mostly it is not on what I see in the gallery. And for sure it is not a Vue picture, but a mixed medium. Sorry I'm a purist. So many things can be done in Vue with work, time and an artistic view. There is no need for a real artist to create an image in 1 hour to fill the galleries, many of us know that we need to spend lots of time to create something we like. Just my opinion. :-)Guitta

Maybe I'm being a bit sensitive here....but I'm getting the feeling that images in this gallery that have Poser figures in them (as most of mine do) are not considered a Vue image. Reference what Gebe said above. I happen to like Vue a LOT more than Poser, for composing scenes, lighting and atmospheres, manipulating objects, you name it. It is much more realistic as far as creating the scene and atmosphere, even the ease of moving an object around, resizing, etc. You can't create or pose human or animal figures in it....which I bring in from Poser. So that means that even though Vue imports poser scenes directly, rather than needing them to be 3ds or obj, even though that's written in the software, it's not a Vue image? So...I suppose that some of the wonderful furniture and other objects created by folks in Rhino and other modeling apps and brought in to Vue are not Vue images either? I will use postwork, as I mentioned earlier, to clean up an image. Mostly Poser problems with poke-throughs, body joint bends, and I'm trying to learn how to paint hair. I also do adjust levels in the picture occasionally, if I can't get just what I want in Vue. I'm not an expert, or a trained artist, or anything like that, I just do this for enjoyment away from my extremely stressful job. I want to create something that I think (or hope) looks nice to someone. If I can't quite get it right one way, I'll try another. If any of my images in the Vue gallery fit the "criteria" of "not being a Vue image", I would like to know about it. I have also used Vue to create sky or other backgrounds for Poser pictures. I always mention if there is any postwork in my pictures, which I think is only fair.

as i said - very academic discussion. And the purists saying 3ds "yes", Poser "no" are a little too purist. Take away from for example Gebes images the poser figures, the plantstudio plants and the bantam 3d grass objects. What stays. Probably not very much. But Gebe is right as well. If you simply take a Poser figure, import it into Vue, render that and post it - a little too easy. You need to add a little Vueism to it. But nobody has to rank an image like that - or comment it. As it is happening today anyway. I think much too much ado about nothing. The way we are acting in this forum/this gallery is absolutely right. No problem with that at all. Nothing to be changed! And the theme of this message was "your worst nightmare". Maybe the worst nightmare is this discussion!! lol, Walther

I use Poser figures as well in Vue:-). They often give live to a landscape. And what I said is exactly what Walther understoud "...If you simply take a Poser figure, import it into Vue, render that and post it - a little too easy." There are many of this kind. I think we can discuss this theme without problem, but we have to respect each ones opinion. Some likes and needs postwork, some doesn't:-) Guitta

I only wish it were that easy! I mean, what you said Gebe, about "...simply take a Poser figure, import it into Vue, render that and post it.." I am not very good at this stuff, so I spend hours trying to put a scene together. In fact, I go to Vue first, and try to construct and light the scene the way I see it in my head. (It never matches, but that's another story) In fact, I've been working on a scene for 2 days now, that I'm still not happy with, since it has to do with volumetric clouds that despite the tutorials I can't seem to get the way I want. Yes, there will be Poser figures in it, in fact quite a few, but I worry and work over a picture until it's the best I feel I can do. I have belonged here a couple of years, but was never brave enough to post any renders until this last year, and that in the Beginner Gallery. I've spent a lot of time since I joined looking at other people's work in the galleries, seeing how they put things together, light their renders, etc. And not just in Poser and Vue galleries. Your point is taken that there's more to Vue or any program than sticking an object in it (whether a figure or something else) and clicking on "render"....that's for certain. I personally find that kind of boring to do, and it never works for me anyway....none of this is easy! As far as postwork, if you feel you need or want to use it, I've got no problem with that. I use it as well, but try to be sparing at it. If you don't, and you're skilled enough to get exactly what you want straight out of a render engine, that's cool too.

HellBorn said: "And as an answer to someone wondering if it's not wrong to use models not built in Vue. As the whole idea behind an application as Vue is to import models as well as other stuff such as textures and do renders, there is nothing wrong with importing models,etc ;). If vue could not do this Vue would not exist (at least not in the form we know it)." Hmmmmmm, that argument does not stand up then HellBorn, as Vue also allows you to export alpha & depth channels as an aid to post work. If I do postwork I'm only using the files that Vue allows me to export ;O) Cheers

It all depends on what the goal of your creation is. If you're creating something to contribute to a community of artists who use one tool, I can see how it might be resented if your work features tools that not everyone has access to. The lines blur with Vue because importing foreign models is a big part of its functionality. I think just about everyone agrees that plopping stock models in front of a camera and rendering is scraping the bottom of the creative barrel. But I guess we should keep in mind that using other models isn't really true post-work. In my mind, post work is enhancing a render or compositing another image with a Vue image. If you're creating something for personal fulfillment, then by all means you should use whatever tools help you achieve that image you have in your head. Similarly, there's no room for purists if you're doing commercial work - then your goal is to product the highest quality image for a client using whatever tools are necessary.

Ahhh but Cheers you said it yourself...your using the files beyond what Vue does. In order to render Vue must have something to render and as it's not really a modeler you will have to import objects unless your only interested in rendering landscapes only. The end result from Vue is the render and some alpha maps. Taking the image and the alphas and continue work in another application is post work. ;) If you did read the rest of my posting you also know that I don't mind postwork in general. It's just that the reason for me to visiting this forum at all is to learn how far I can take it with Vue and except for information on how to use the alpha maps the rest of post work really belongs in a Photoshop (or whatever is being used) or a general 3D forum as the source for the images no longer matters. But at the same time. If you render anything that includes a poser figure you have to fix the ugly joints in post work because there is no Vue setting that can fix it for you. So as I said before. I would prefer if there is no post work and if there is post work then I would like to know for what it's been used.

A little bit off the main subject, but I wanted to comment on something that drnw04a mentioned, and I never thought about before. In his post he says that others might resent it if you have tools not everyone else has. While I understand (I hope) the idea behind this, then we could say that one person might resent another because they have a faster processor, or more memory, or a bigger screen, or an air conditioned room. Heck, I might resent someone for being older or younger than me, and more talented than me! The fact is...we play with what we've got, within our budgets and lifestyles. I am amazed at what some folks manage with machines that have less power than mine and others', or at folks that have less experience or more experience, or whatever. I go to the other galleries, and am amazed at photos or renders in other products. But I've gotta say, it never crossed my mind to resent that someone has more or better or different something than me. I also think there's something to be said for respect and tact. When we comment or ask questions on images, or in the forum, I don't think it hurts to keep those 2 things in mind, so feelings aren't hurt, and maybe some misunderstandings can be avoided.

I look at a picture: does it move me? does it evoke feelings, memories? does it tell a story? does it make me dream, or wander with my mind? does it have mystery and depth? THESE are the things that matter to me when I look at a picture. THEN, and only afterwards, I care if it's made in Vue, Bryce, Poser, Lightwave, or whatever. So for me, both postwork and pure Vue are ok, as long as they produce good art. I always evaluate techniques as media, not as goals. I agree though, that the Vue forums are places to discuss Vue first. They are not galleries. So in the Vue forums, pure Vue must come first. But forums are one thing, and gallery are another. When I look at a gallery, I forget about everything and only react freely to the artworks displayed. To limit admissibility of postwork in galleries would be like using prejudice. I do not like that. Orio

Ohh... In my opinion: A Poser model just imported into Vue and rendered is a Vue image! Unless of course a plain render of the Vue sphere is a Vue image and a plain render of an imported sphere is not ;)