A note to all who took Proud to be American wrong. I did say that I don't agree to everything that america does. But I am proud to be whom I am. I don't like war. And if I could stop it I would. Please aim your insults to the politics for that is where the blame is due, not to americans that work their asses off, and try to live. I am one such american. I am proud of whom I am, I can not help if my country made some wrong decisions, I think all countries have their problems. But does that mean because of issues out of our hands, that all Americans are bad? NO!!!....I repeat NO!!! I have my points on politics which I kept out of my description. So the bashing would not fly. I see I was mistaken. Seeing this I think God needs to bless American. Damn straight I'm proud to be american. Even if I don't agree with all the politics. There ARE "GOOD" Americans. Do not make us look bad, because of the politicans(SP). We are not all them. United? I won't even go there. But do not bash me for being proud of my heritage. For some suit wearing Politican that claims to speak for me, when infact on many many issues they don't. I can stand and scream. But I am one, and can face reality. My voice won't be heard it will become lost in the wind of many that don't agree with me. Thank-You Chelle Anderson aka ~D.M. Ander~

Chelle, you are exactly right ... everyone has a right to be heard and hold their own opinions and feelings without being ridiculed or belittled for them. I can certainly relate ... same thing happened to me when I posted my "war is not the answer" image, but of course, I realized afterwards that in such a large and diverse forum, there are going to be those who have differing opinions and when we offer ours up for everyone to see, it usually opens a big can of worms. Some feel they have the right to slam their own opinions down our throats and be ugly and condescending about it, as if they are right and have all the answers. I happen to try and respect other's opinions, no matter how different they may be from my own. We all have the right to speak our minds. So, it's really easy to feel attacked ... but try not to be too awfully offended, it would happen anywhere ... it's a very touchy and emotional subject, with lots of opposing views.

Chelle: This is a hot issue. Those who speak out against the Bush doctrine will be called "unpatriotic" or "anti-American". It's always been that way. The counter has to be as strong, but respectful of the poor people who have been fooled by the neo-Conservative agenda. Nelson Mandela helped a lot today. It takes a lot of courage to do and say what he did. You have a lot to be proud of. I'm glad you are. I just hope one day we can all say, we're proud to be a part of the Human race. Till then, strap yourself in, it's going to be a rough ride. Good luck. Q PS: You should have been around during the bombing of Cambodia. Big turning point for my generation.

Chelle....Great Job, I loved it, and who cares what a couple of foreigners (Xabre & lue) think, They don't understand what our flag stands for (they're probaly communists,or terrorists), They don't konw how many Americans have died to give us what we have, they only know what is fed to them by the local media of their Respective countries. They may not love the US but they sure live our products, clothing, cars , music ,movies,food,and Software,Have you ever asked your self why these people hate us? Is because they eare jealous. Don't let these two persons get you down, stand proud and salute Old Glory and say GOD DAMN IT I'M PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!

Jealous? Maybe. More likely just unexposed to this way of life. They'd think differently otherwise.

Most of us here are like you darkwhispers so dont take it personal. Some people need to see a bigger picture not just there own back yard.

I consider myself a patriot, I respect the values depicted in our constitution. HOWEVER(and this will probably cause me some grief) I AM SICK OF THOSE WHO WIPE THEIR ASS WITH IT!!! I am ashamed, that our leaders have no clue what FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY mean. The people do not want a war, the world does not want this war, yet our government has decided that is wasn't a matter to compromise upon. To stand up and defy the UNITED NATIONS, what arrogance! The United Nations was formed so that the world could share a common democratic state and since it's opinion differs from that our leaders, our leaders are going to stand up in defiance and thumb their nose at this democratic system? They might as well be wiping their asses with this flag they salute. We the people declare those those in power are in violation of the principles that this great union is based upon. You will not serve another 4 years. You will be accountable for each and every life.

Holier than thou, I am not, this war is wrong!

Oh yeah, did I mention, Great work DW!

It's too bad a fine picture-- and it was extremely fine-- should produce such a rash of childish behavior. You did the right thing, you created a superior work that reflected how you felt. You even tried to make it easier for the "rebels without a clue" to accept it. Don't worry about how others took the render it moved a lot of people. Including me. Emily

I liked it and seriously appreciate that image and I agree with a lot of what you said. I love my Country and was proud to serve her once and, regardless of the circumstances, would be proud to do so again if I was able too. Jack

Good luck, iamonk. It took almost 30 years for us to get a good picture of what happened in Cambodia. The most accurate numbers are 700,000 civilians dead under the tons of US bombs. No war crimes trial. During the last Gulf war, the "highway of death" incident happened after the hostilities had officially stopped. No war crimes trial. The guy who ordered this illigal massacre was promoted. I hope you're right this time. But somehow, I doubt it. Q

chelle, I agree with you too. :)

I saw the start of the comments when I left mine. It's a good image and very well done. I loved the texture on the flag. I was afraid you might run into the jerks though. Sorry they can't see the beauty. I had to turn off the comments once. People just can't see that pride for your country doesn't indicate acceptance of what the current government might be doing at any particular time. I don't agree with Bush right now but I'm still proud to fly my flag at home.

It's not a symbol for Bush and company.

I don't think you need to explain yourself to anyone. You are what you are. It's no shame to be proud of what and who you are. Laurie (another proud American, who also doesn't agree with everything the government does, but wouldn't want to live anywhere else) :o)

I like living where I live. :) Europe is a pretty cool place. But yeah, I agree. actually, I think that reclaiming the flag as a symbol for average Americans and making sure its NOT a symbol for Bush and Co. (or any other politician with delusions of grandeur - and thats most of 'em in both parties) is a very good idea. :)

"and thats most of 'em in both parties" In most countries, I'd say.

bijouchat: I imagine Europe would be pretty cool :o). I'd love to be able to visit sometime, especially France, Germany or Italy (all countries of my ancestry). I guess one always has a special feeling about the country in which they were born :o). Laurie

I am British, and proud of that fact, even though some of our politicians, led by the Prime Minister, seem to subscribe to the views of your President. In this country one particular party, minor and very biased tried to hijack our flag and turn it into a symbol for themselves alone. It did not work. The recent jubilee celebrations showed that our flag is a proud symbol for all, not just a few. We reclaimed the symbol of our flag from these bigots, and are proud to display it, as all Americans should be proud to display theirs.

oh, definitely in most countries too. you think I like Schroeder... the womanizing drunk... lol. Gawd sakes no. lol. He's smarter than Bush though, but that's not saying a whole heck of a lot. They both suck.

runs off and hums that tax song everyone is so upset over... lol

I don't get this patriotism crap. I'm not at all patriotic, I don't get the point. No country/culture/religion is better than others, don't believe that nonsense. Trouble is, everyone in every stupid country and every stupid religion and every stupid culture is convinced that 'WHAT I BELIEVE IS THE ONLY WAY; ALL OTHERS ARE IDIOTS'. So by definition, since almost everyone on all sides is convinced of this, it's impossible. All conflicting opinions can't all be right. So maybe everyone is wrong instead - there is no better nation, culture, religion, politics, just different ones. If we all could see this and just get on with life instead, there would be no war. So get off your American high horses, you arrogant types, and see that the rest of the world is just as good, OK? This applies equally well to arrogant Muslims, Chinese, Chileans, Brits, whatever. :] Universal Fish

All politicians Suck big time, except maybe Bill C ;) I do wish they'd start listening to the people who gave them their jobs once in a while. I mean do they not realise they've let thousands of potential terrorists roam our countries free in the name of political asylum? Anyway the politicians will do what they please as usual & we'll still go on making art. It's a great picture DW but come on, you must have known someone would take offense when you made & posted it, afterall anyone who's not American these days is an Anti-American Terrorist even us in the UK. What worries me is when Osama & Saddam are gone who's going to be next on the hit list?

Who ever serves their purpose.

So did we create a hit list?! What worries me is the people liek Osama & Saddam are allowed to carry on and kill thousands or millions of people while other people or countries support them. Remember the World Trade Center victims, and the City of New York were not soldiers.

I checked out the picture. I thought it was nice, but didn't comment. Never thought it would raise such a storm. But then, this is a world-wide community isn't it? And the people out there who hate the United States, both within her borders and outside them, far outweigh those of us who love her. I've patiently read the screeds of those of you who have a problem with the United States and with President Bush in particular. I sit here, someone who considered himself a Democrat and a liberal up to the morning of September 11, 2001, and I can not believe the venom that is being spewed by Americans and foreigners alike. I'll be the first to admit that the US is far from right 100% of the time, and that our methods are not always the cleanest or most civil. My grandfather and seven of his brothers left their blood on the shores of Normandy, in Africa, in Italy and Germany. My peers and friends fought and died in Kuwait and Iraq not ten years ago. Why? Does anyone really think that they wanted to? What did we as a country or a people have to gain by fighting the Germans in WW II, or going to Kuwait during the Iraqi invasion? We went because we were asked to. We were begged to help fight the Germans. We were begged to fight the Iraqi's by the very people who saw fit to fly commerical aircraft into the World Trade Center buildings and kill over 3,000 innocent civilians. No, we are not always right. Vietnam was an enormous mistake. The way we treated our soliders, sailors, marines and airmen in the wake of Vietnam was an even more appaling mistake and a digrace to the memory of everyone who ever wore the uniform of this great country. We are not always right. But I think we deserve the benefit of the doubt. We, as a nation, give more money and food and aid than the entire United Nations combined. We are always willing to help in a fight, especially if it is a fight for freedom. We are hated and reviled. How do those three things add up? If we were colonialist, we'd rule the world. If we really hated Arabs and just wanted their oil, we'd take it. Who'd stop us? France? No one ever better compare the United States to Hitler when they are within arm's reach of me, because they will regret it. Too many of my family suffered and died, went to war and fought, were maimed and killed because of that egomaniacal little whacko. We may not always be right, we may in fact be dead wrong sometimes. But we are not bullies or despots. We are free, giving, caring strong people who believe that everyone should have those same rights. e.d.

Chelle... left you a comment... & nice render btw :o) Thomas

" When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!" " - Martin Luther King

whewy, this was alot to read, such passion in all these posts. I would say you did your job with this picture, I liked it. Although I may not be considered patriotic at all, I have trouble living in this country that bashes smokers, but yet continues to sell tobacco so the government can get the taxes on it, and give it away to Vietnam vets for free while over in Vietnam and get them addicted. I have trouble with this country who holds a presidential election, and the popular vote doesn't work, but the government says "we know what is best for you, you common people who are suppose to be in charge of the government really don't know what to do, so we will do it" I could go on and on, and I do try to change things cause I do live here, but is this my country or is this the governments country? All I seem to do is help make money for the politicians, let the fat cats eat well, I can live on nothing. Yep, I have a strong confiction regarding our government, not a good one I might add, I wish I could get my country back to the people where it belongs ! Sharen

We used to have someone who thought like that Sharen, Guy Fawkes was his name. We are all free, free to die for the government. Did you know we in the UK weren't told about the Risin till 3 days after it was found, they'll probably wait a week to tell us a nuke has been set off over here too.

Gotta agree with Fishnose on this one (::waving at Fish::). The image itself? It's okay, but nothing all that special, to be bluntly honest. I would have prefered to see more compositional space given to the flag than the standard chick if indeed "proud to be American" is the message -- after all, what's the real symbol here? The flag? Or perfect makeup and a fab-o wardrobe?

Guido Fawkes and his co-conspiritors... Freedom fighters or terrorists? On Nov 5th do we celebrate the capture, torture and execution of Guy Fawkes or do we celebrate his plan to blow up the king and house of parliament? I'm not sure, but we have pretty fireworks!

I have to look and see who this Guy Fawkes is, I am sorry I am ignorant to his name, but I will go now and read up on him....I think about the people in this world, not just the ones here in the USA, the people who have died, worked themselves ill, struggled though out their lives for their "Country" all the while Mr. Fat Cat sits back and scoops it all up cause he has the power..... You Mr. Fat Cat, have no Shame! Sharen

As a devils advocate on politics and people... Is not a society defined by its politics? If not then what else defines it. Borders are set by politics, freedoms are granted by politics..etc. As such, a people cannot seperate themselves from the politics that govern them. The pride of a country is found in the systems it holds in place through their politics. To say one is proud of their country, and not in their countries leadership is a bit hypocritical. If the country does not like the decisions of its leadership, it is their civic duty to change that leadership. The American people are a great people (I even married one), but one cannot seperate the policies of politics from the society. They are one and the same.

"The pride of a country is found in the systems it holds in place through their politics" how true, unfortunately bad politics grow out of something that once was good, and once was needed. As a country grows, laws need to change, policies need to change, constitutions need to change, as we evolve as a united country, we can't grow if we are bound to laws and policies made 200 years ago. Just a note, I never stated I was proud of this country they call the United States. I am proud of the people who created this land, from their efforts of true honest work, not from the Politicians who road their carpet, who LIED and MISLEAD the people and said they wanted for the people and this land. Sharen

Excellent statement, Rawner. No matter how much we think we know, we don't know nearly as much as the people pulling the strings. And most of us only know what the media moguls want us to know, and even that is skewed by their bias. When did it become wrong to be proud of your nation? There are many here who need to get off their high horses.

No offense Jackson and truly I say this with the deepest of respect, I don't know alot of people here that are on a high horse. We all have opionions, like I told c1rcle, I feel it is one of our greatest freedoms that we still have. I admire the words that were spoken here by so many, they have zeal for life and are bound by their hearts. I get to going on a subject and at times forget my manners, so in my humble mind I do appologize if I offended anyone. I do stand by what I have said though. Those words are mine and I take responsiblilty for speaking them. That is how I feel. Sharen

evilded777 hit the nail squarely on the head. I'm sick to death of all this BS about how we're the Big Evil. If we were, you guys would all be americans. Historically, when has another supreme world power worked so hard to attain peace? Did the Romans? Did the Greeks? If we were the assholes we are painted to be by our dretractors, we'd just make a list of all the countries who have ever besmirched us and blow them back to the stone age. Do we do that? We certainly have the arsenal too. No, we fund, we facilitate. We are builders far more than destroyers. I'm not saying we've never treated others wrongly. Certainly American Indians got the shaft from us big time as well as some others. But, let's look at the big F'n picture folks. We're done a lot and I mean a freaking LOT more good than bad. As for those of you who want to slam on our president "YES THE ONE WHO DID WIN THE ELECTION" that is your freedom and priviledge. You should appreciate that right. But, why do you think you have that right? I wonder if you'd have that right if you lived in Iraq. I've got muslim friends who are great people. I don't buy for one second that the whole Sept 11 is truly about Islam. It's about a power struggle in Saudi Arabia and money, the root of all evil. And the next mother F****** who sucker punches me in the dark is getting their sorry ass kicked.

Attached Link: http://www.sobran.com/columns/011016.shtml

Power. Resourses. Control. The most of all of them for our selected breeding group, our elite. There is no altruism in the way any government is behaving. No noble views against war. It's just for some countries war will interrupt the flow of resources into their breeding area, for others it will expand the flow eventually. How rich can we make our own ruling elite? How secure? To hell with the poor, the sick, the needy. Wall Street Profits are more important than the hungry. This is true for every nation. Not just the U.S. We just have worse P.R. and a better 4th Estate. Millions died in Cambodia, not only from US bombs, but more from their own government's purges. No one did anything, there wasn't anything valuable. Tens, maybe hundreds of millions will die from Aids in Africa. Well, the fewer people, the easier to get their resourses. Did France help? Germany? Russia? The man in the White House say's he's going to help. Decades late. And he won't even ask for funding to get required drugs for his own elderly and Aids patients, and medical care for his own children. No more money for Aids in his own country either. Politics and propoganda by all of the bastards. I'm very proud to be an U.S. citizen. However, that pride comes from the people here who help one another, who give to the less fortunate even when they have to go without themselves. Who can discuss the great moral issues of our time without forcing their opionion on others. Who believe that any for of violence may be the last resort, and that we can always find a better way. I'm more proud of the shy woman on the street who freely gives a dollar to a homeless man than I am of all the U.S. bombs ever made. The term "People who pull the strings" refers to Puppeteers. Those who control the wooden heads on the stage of life. Maybe someday Pinnocheo will come to life, and be angry.

oh man, I said to myself I should not add any more than I have but Greybro you said "But, why do you think you have that right?" We all have rights here nobody is saying we don't but those rights that we still do have came with a very heavy price. If this war unfolds like the Persian Gulf War, some general will be showing air photos of buildings and other "military objective" being vaporized by our uncannily accurate bombs or missiles: and the war will seem sanitary and almost humane. It's not. Necessary maybe, but not humane. Not by a long shot. Sharen quixote I appreciate this essay, thank you.

Sharen, It utterly sickens me to think that many, many innocents will be collateral damage if we war on Iraq. But do you think the powers that be are of the mindset, "Hey, let's go blow some shit up and kill some kids while we're at it."? The fact is that this man is a menace to the world. I see no point whatsoever in waiting until he manages a nuke, or long range delivery system for his Chemical and Biological weapons which we all know he has. He bought the materials for them. He bought the cultures to grow the bio weapons in. He bought the tubes to make the missles. We know and they have admited to producing 25,000 barrels of said weapons. He says he's destroyed them with chemicals and has handed over like 16 barrels of the stuff, but can produce not one shred of dna evidence of having chemical deactivate the bio weapons. Now, forgive me if I don't want to take the bastards word. He's a know liar who has used bio weapons on his own citizens. This is the man you guys feel is not deserving of the wrath of our war machine. My point about our freedom is the same you're making, it does require a high price. Sometimes that price is war and the death of innocents on both sides. I hope war is averted (Byy Saddam giving a shit about his people and complying with UN requirements. I truly, truly do. But if war is neccessary, then it's neccessary and none of the liberals will ever agree with it.

Greybro, I understand your point and your obviously you are very passionate with your thoughts, but we also have all those things, we may have lots more that we are not informed about. Mike was in Vietnam, it was horrible for him, he was in the thick of it in the DMZ, he has seen things he wished he never saw, he did things he didn't want to do, he understood why he was there, to fight for freedom. He was treated as an outlaw when he came home, as a killer. And in all essense he was, because he believed in what he was fighting for. We both feel that there is and always will be a price to pay for war. We do not know all the facts only what we are told...and to be honest with you, we do not feel we have been told everything and maybe not even the truth. I don't trust this man either, but I don't trust alot of our leaders. Do you? I will end this here, it is going nowhere, these are only Mike's and my thoughts and feelings. We are not here to convince you to believe what we feel. Just thought it was time to speak our thoughts on this matter. Sharen

I intended to stay out of this because there are very very strong opinions but I must say, as a Canadian, I am very frightened, living so close as we do to the U.S.A., that if war is declared, we will have to meekly go along in order to survive. This war, if it does come and I ernestly pray it will not, will be like no other - not even close to the Persian Gulf War. I think Nelson Mendela's speech was one of the finest I have heard in opposition to this war. It is really heartfelt to see the anti-war protests and to hear people speaking out in opposition. :( Irene

Q, or confuse Nationalism for Nationailzing. Nationalism simply put means love of country in some cases too much. Nationalizing has to do with putting the resources of a country including the lives and means of its people into the hands of the Government. What you are really talking about with the latter is National Socialism. We in America are indeed in danger of becoming a National Socialist Country if the flag no longer represents all of us, congress gives over the power to make war to any one else and people mistake love of country for blind obedience and thus willingly give up their rights for a little temporary security. The flag belongs to everyone in America not just those who would deny it to the rest of us. As such I can find nothing wrong with the picture It does not seem to advocate war only Nationalism. As long as we don't confuse love of country for the bush docterine there is nothing wrong with that. It's MY flag too, - TJ

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12418&Form.ShowMessage=1076206&Reply=1079547#8

We in America are indeed in danger of becoming a National Socialist Country if the flag no longer represents all of us, congress gives over the power to make war to any one else and people mistake love of country for blind obedience and thus willingly give up their rights for a little temporary security. Amen to that ... well said

I offer a thought through an often misquoted quote: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana, The Life of Reason, Volume 1, 1905 We can do well to remember the atrocities of past & present despots & tyrants: the Ceasars, Saladin, King George, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao & Saddam. If you see your brother being beaten by a band of thugs do you walk on and say to yourself: "this is not my argument, I cannot get involved". In so saying, can you live with your sin of omission? Thank you Darkwispers for inspiring this dialogue through your excellent work.

Deecey, Thanks, but actually I've been brainwashed by Ben Franklin; It comes out now and again. - TJ

Nice to see you folks at Poser Pros saw this thread, and couldn't resist bashing the artist's work. This is sadly much more predictable than perfectly dressed Vickies in the Renderosity Poser Gallery... G The flag is not a perfect flag, if anyone cared to note. The artist is showing that even though the flag is not perfect, its soiled and torn, its been run through hell, I'm still proud to be American. I'll still pick it up because its MY flag, because it represents MY values. If we let the conservative agenda claim the flag as THEIR symbol and take it away from the average American, then sure Americans might be on the road to Nazi hell. I hope that's not the case. I have a picture around here somewhere of what it looked like then, with EVERY house having a Nazi flag hanging outside it. It was actually the LAW to do that, you'd go to jail if you didn't fly a flag! Well, I'm proud to be American too. I live in Germany now, because my love happens to be German, and he can't find a job like he has here so easy in America. So... easier for me to live here. Its by no means perfect here either, I often don't like the politicians here any more than I like the American ones, but there ARE some notable religious controversies that go on in the US all the time that are absent here... and that's relaxing. (I hate to invoke Godwin's law here, but since someone had to talk about National Socialism, might as well throw in my two cents.)

TJ. We are all held hostage by the Rght. Fascism is now a recognized political theory, with academic credits (the all 9 yards) to the dismay of many academics. I'm a member of a political board, and it's really crazy now. One thing is certain, a lot of people are very worried. My area of research is Cambodia. The carpet bombing that killed 700,000 civilians; the famine it caused that killed as many; the destabilizing effects it had on the whole region, providing the Khmers Rouge and Pol Pot the chance to take power and kill between 1 to 3 million more civilians; and then a decade later, when Pot had been removed, good old Ronald Reagan decided it was in the US's interests to provide this sociopath with money, arms and advisers so he could continue his civil war and kill even more people. That's what war can bring. They may not be Americans, but they are people too. "Collateral damage" ? well denial serves a purpose, I guess.