Hi All OK, I did it, I had a spare 50 and got myself Bryce 5 upgrade from my rarely used Bryce 4. Having just spent 2 years with Vue I tried bryce again. Well, firstly there was a bug on the installer which has remained unfixed and unrecognised (still waiting for Corel to return my e-mail), it basically fails to recognise previous serial numbers, so it's impossible to upgrade. Apparently if you ring Corel, they give you a temproary serial number for that installation, obviously it's not in the FAQ nor does that serial number work next time you install. Fortunently other people know of this bug and using alternative methods I was able to install my legal upgrade for my previous legal full version. Thumbs down for Corel on software support. So, I opened the app, still same overcrowded and confusing interface, but I use Poser 5, I can deal with that, let's try and do something. About 10 minutes later, found myself screaming because of the horrendous way you move things around because you can't four pane the views (up, side, front, camera). Then I figured, OK, let's bung a Poser figure in, try and get motivated behind this app by working on one of my scenes. Printed out 6 page tutorial from website about how to import poser figures. Read it, uninstalled Bryce, placed in cupboard. This is a warning to anybody thinking of switching or trying out Bryce, don't, stay with Vue for your own sanity. best wishes Jody

Sorry for your experience. I took the other route to Vue becoming my app of choice. I had Bryce, upgraded to 5 and was using it. I had two projects for which Bryce was well suited. First was a sci-fi cityscape and second was techno-interiors. I was very happy with my results. Then I had to move on to a jungle setting. This had been my sole reason for upgrading to 5. It was a horrible disappointment. The tree lab is sorely lacking. And that is all it can do; trees. Well, anybody that has seen the out-of-doors knows that trees are not the only type of vegitation there is. As a matter of fact, I'm now amazed at how little trees actually add to a nature scene. So I'm working with Bryce, as well as I can, when I happen across Vue2 in Digit. I get it. I use it. I'm hooked. Then I upgrade my whole system to XP and I lose Vue2. I know at this point I can't complete the project without it, so I upgrade to Vue4 and I haven't looked back. There are so few things I find lacking in Vue now after using it. Of course there are some things that I think Vue can still use that Bryce does far better. But this only gives e-on direction to grow. And as far as Bryce is concerned, Corel seems to be dropping it anyway (see the Bryce forum). Sorry for rambling, Will

Just take your story and reverse it. That would be my experience with Vue, lol. I do not like Vue at all, but I fly with Bryce. I hear and feel your pain on the whole Bryce upgrade & Corel support situation, it's quite unfortunate. There are many 3D apps, and as you have experienced, it's good to go with whatever tool fits into your hand the best. If Vue fits, render away! I have seen your gallery, and I must say you fly with Poser! Just a great body of work, IMO. Keep them coming. And, as far as Bryce 5 is concerened (over Bryce 4), it other than trees...it also has true ambience, depth of field, soft shadows, (more) expanded rendering options, metaballs, larger g2h resolutions, oh yeah, and those trees, lol. I have to agree, if you have and love Vue, you probably won't covet Bryce, lol. But, either program is worth learning. You just have to find out which one is more comfortable. AgentSmith

The serial number thing was only in the very first batch of B5 releases. You must have gotten one that was on the shelf for a while. By the time I bought B5 Corel had that fixed. Be sure to get the patch for both B5 and B lightning.

the pane-less(no pun intended) interface in bryce gave me some trouble at first, but i then found that u can just press the 1 thru 4 keys to switch to different cameras.

That's true. But, I admit that I, a single pane Bryce user WILL have to get used to that 4 pane view as I learn higher-end programs, it seems they all (stereotypically) use that. AS

I started with Bryce 3, then Bryce 4, upgraded to Bryce 5 only for the tree lab. I was a little disappointed with it; tends to hang my machine or have strange artifacts in the trees. But toddled on until a friend suggested I try Vue demo. I love the 4-pane view, and find Vue easier to work with. I do like Bryce, and I like Vue too. I am trying to go back to Bryce for some things, just to keep in practice, but have lost many of my Brycing skills (not that they were great to begin with, lol). Bryce 4/5 is much more complex (DTE, for example) and there's still tons I haven't learned about the program. I'm not one of those folks who thinks any program is the absolute zenith, though; I think Vue is somewhat buggy, just like Bryce. And for usability, I have Truespace installed for more than a year and still haven't figured out how to start in it!! I think Bryce and Vue both do different things very well, and I have fun with both of them, which for me is the object.

I can't look at four panes at once, so for me, flipping quickly through the panes with `1234 (really SENSIBLE choices of hot keys for once; compare the stupid ones in Poser) actually works better. What I find difficult with Vue is positioning objects correctly for interiors (which is what I do mostly). With Bryce it is very easy to build a wall and turn it exactly 90 degrees. It is harder in Vue (or I didn't discover the easy way). As for Poser figures, once you figure out the optimum strategy, you find that the Bryce route is actually better. The trick is to stop thinking about trying to import textures from Poser. The Poser4 texture engine is pathetic; ignore it. Import your untextured figure into Bryce and then use the much better Bryce material editor. With the Grouper utility, you can import a mesh that has only so many parts as will have different materials (typically about 6). OK, so Vue can import from a .pz3 file, but just try and retexture the figure in Vue using the Vue material editor - just try it! So you're stuck with whatever you get out of Poser. So I uninstalled Vue and went back to Bryce. I might go back to Vue someday for doing pure landscapes (which I do think it's better at), but for my current work Bryce is better.

"What I find difficult with Vue is positioning objects correctly for interiors (which is what I do mostly). With Bryce it is very easy to build a wall and turn it exactly 90 degrees. It is harder in Vue (or I didn't discover the easy way)." You didn't discover the easy way. You click on the object then in the numerics tab spot type in 90 Or what ever rotation you want. Can't be easer than that.It's easy to move stuff exactly in vue and as four panes double clicking on any top bar will max that one window for a close up view. Texturing is just as easy you just haven't learn how to do it yet.

I really don't like the 4 pane view in any of the higher end programs I much prefer the 1234 of Bryce and as for bugs, many of these were sorted in the 5.1 update for Bryce which can be found on the Corel site. Bryce has many good points and the reason the bad points haven't been improved is because of the lack of interest on the part of Corel. If you check out this thread in the Bryce forum it may inspire you to keep an eye out for future developements in Bryce:- http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=107&Form.ShowMessage=1130090 Have only skimmed the surface in Vue so I don't think I'm in a position to comment but maybe I should put more effort into what I do with it. Cheers Cat

Cat I've been watching that discussion, and I do hope that Bryce is picked up and kept alive and improved. But I'm a cinic, and I've been disappointed by corporate downsizing too often to get my hopes up. I will keep my fingers crossed though, because if the team most interrested, is the team that Corel sells to, then Bryce's future would be nothing if not bright.

I'm planning to upgrade my Vue 2 to Vue 4 but haven't had the money yet. In the meantime I still use Bryce 5. In Corel's defense re the serial number not taking, that was Metacreations' fault, not Corel. Corel had no way of knowing that some serial numbers MC issued for version 4 of Bryce were actually version ONE serials. So of course Corel's installers didn't accept them as valid upgrade numbers. re Bryce's trees being only trees: that's really not true. They can be bushes and flowers and ferns and grass too. I've even made lilacs out of Bryce trees. I also feel Bryce trees look better in closeup, but prefer Vue trees for distance (as trees). MightyPete: I don't consider typing in a number to be 'the easy way'. The less my right hand leaves my mouse the better. In Bryce my left hand can press shift while my right hand uses the mouse on the rotation control for precise 90 degree rotation. Mouse haters can type in numbers in Bryce too :) Now a QUESTION: Does Vue 4 have an equivalent to Bryce's plop render?

Plop render? Can't say I heard of that. Select render area and which you can select you draw a box around what you want to render for tests and you got preview for really fast renders just to check placement of objects. I use the mouse also to rotate suff. But if you want it exact then numbers is exact. Like you just drag the lttle round arrow round the screen and the object will rotate any plain you working in. Pivot point can get in your way but you can reset it or you can use it to your advantage.

Yeah, selecting a small area in which to render, that's what it is, Bryce just calls it "plop" render. AgentSmith

Aye, Jody, that sucks that Corel treated you this way. It must have been realy rough, all that hard work, all of those mouse clicks. Demanding, truly. But, persistence is the key, and patience. Both of which, you obviously lack. How'd you ever even get WINDOWS installed, anyways? I think you're better off in the Vue community, even my patience is wearing thin just thinking about you.

Thanks Pete and AgentSmith. re the 4-pane view. I have a hard time with it, but I'm so used to the keys in Bryce that of course I prefer the single-pane now. The problem with the single pane view in Bryce is not seasoned users...we deal with it very well...it's beginners. My students just can't get used to switching views. Once they realize and go 'doh' they do fine. It's just getting them there that's so hard. Poser to Vue is of course much easier and more robust than Poser to Bryce. But Poser to Bryce isn't as hard as the tutes out there lead you to believe either. The truth is somewhere in the middle, as usual. :) I'm hoping I'll be able to upgrade within a month and really am looking forward to playing with vue 4!

Make sure you apply all patches which right now is 4.12. It should probably will even come that way. A easy way to explain the 4 views to somebody, even students would be to do it the drafting way. Show them how you take a cube draw the top draw the front then the right hand side then how from there you draw the projected view then add something to the cube like say a hole going threw it and do it all over again. Like teach them how to draw a isometric drawing. Then let them loose on the program again. They'll never look at it odd ever again. See I studied drafting and it makes perfect sense to me. It's hundreds of years old. Why did Bryce try to change it is the question. It's the tried and true method. You can get what Bryce has just by double clicking on the top pane windows and you can even scroll threw the different views. I tried to find info but I can't seem to find much other than CAD. What? You think we did not do this with pencil and paper? SR75 Blackbird was done this way, CAD didn't exist. It's a method that works and all CAD programs use this same system even today. It was invented in like the 16th century if not even further back.

Decafe shadowdragonlord, decafe, lol. AgentSmith

Pete..that's really great that you can think that way, but, how do I explain this. One of the things that makes Bryce so easy for NON 3D and non-draftsman type people to get started with is that you really don't even have to think in terms of x,y,z at all. At least at first when everything in the program is so new to you. The edit controls direction matches the direction of the default view. So you can size and drag and rotate without worrying about x,y,z. And the reason you move to other views is only to get your object placement correct at first and you can do that totally visually. And if you need to work on an object that's already rotated, simply go into object space and drag on the doohickies. You still don't have to worry about x,y,z. If you move your scene around so it's no longer default, then you just go into 'camera space' and the edit controls again match the direction you're looking at. It's later when you start to actually construct things that you might have to worry about x,y,z and where the control point is and learn about bryce units and the grid. For those that are comfortable in 3D-space they can set up the default view as they wish, and type in numbers, and do everything they normally would like to do in a 3D program. For those that are new to 3D-space, this is an undaunting method of getting them into it. Not everyone is ready to think like a draftsman right away, and there's no reason to frustrate them from the beginning. The interface was built for both types of users, something that's lost on a lot of people who simply don't understand why Bryce is the way it is. Sorry I went on so long. Thanks for the info on the patches...the first thing I'll check for when I get it!

Well i never think in XYZ ever it's just not natural to me. I actually program 3d cutting machines and have to stop and stand back and think about it some times. It's kind of funny. It does not come natural for me. I think in top, front and right hand side. It's weird but it's the way I've be taught. It's like walking now to me it's hard to break the habit. It's a really handy thing to learn though cause all blue prints are based on those rules. If you can read them it opens up possibilities. I do it a much easier way. I look at the 3d view decide which pane will work best then work in the pane. I usually end up in the top view placing stuff then on the front view to get the height proper. I very rarely use the right hand side view. I usually don't use the 3d view at all. Like I don't move stuff around in it in 3d space. It's to easy to goof up. I use the arrow keys lots and I do too much zooming in & out Thing is if you want to work in the 3d view just double click on it's top bar. Thing is this view is the hardest view to work in by far. Like I don't use it unless say i'm moving a moon in the background. I just never use it. it's to easy to make mistakes. Like most people never figure out True Space cause this is the view your trying to work in. I find it very difficult to work in the 3d view. It's not the way I've been taught, you make the three drawings first then use that information to draw the 3d view. The 3d is the end not the start so it's hard for me to think of it the other way round. Like it's just like walking. The 3d view to me is like trying to walk on stilts.Ya possible but it's the falling that hurts.

I bet you're a great modeler, Pete! I think it's a gift to be able to think that way. Wish it were that easy for me. I mean looking at front, side, and top view for a scene are okay..it makes sense. But I'm more comfortable in a 3d view rather than orthographic, and I cant visualize making a model at all. I mean the first time I was able to visualize making an arched hole in a wall I nearly fell off my chair! Sorry for hijacking this thread, I'm just getting excited about hopefully getting a new toy!

Well, as a user of both Vue and Bryce, I think of both programs in terms of certain "qualities"... Bryce has a look and quality that speaks Bryce, and when I want that look, I use Bryce... Also, I like alot of the Brycean features (DTE, terrain modeling, lighting, tree lab, etc)... Likewise, Vue has certain qualities and when I want that quality I use Vue.. likewise, there are a lot of features I like about Vue too (importing model, parts easily discernible, skies magnificent, great vegetation, easier texture generator) I'm a guitarist, so it's like using a gibson or a fender guitar.. both will create music, each has a different sound and different logic.. That's how I look at Bryce and Vue...

This is a great thread! I saw so many 'to die for' renders from Bryce that I just had to buy it. I also got the Real World Bryce 4 book. I couldn't figure it out. The interface was so small, and the tools confounded me. I was doing well enough in Poser, and I wanted a world for 'my people', LOL. I was so discouraged at my lack of understanding and talent, I uninstalled Bryce. I got a demo of Vue... and WOW! Everything clicked! Well, not everything - at first. But enough to give me confidence to keep going. It just got better and better for me. So, I reinstalled Bryce thinking I could nail it now. No way. I still can't work in it. Not sure why, must be a mental block. Can anyone explain why Vue seems so easy and natural, while Bryce is so confusing in it's 'rooms' for materials, skylab, etc? Are these the 'high-end' features of the future? Same thing with Poser 5. Various rooms instead of pop outs that don't cover the entire screen. To me, this is the beauty of Vue. You can still see your screen while you make your choices...

Same reason I like Mint Chip and others like Rock Road. It's not something you can truly put your finger on, it just comes down to what goes down the best. AgentSmith

That is a great answer. "It's what goes down the best." Really well put, Mr AgentSmith.

Aye, Sir AgentSmith, I switched, sorry for loosing my vaunted "cool" earlier! I love much of the artwork I've seen from Vue users, I think I'm just bitter because Vue caught me off guard. I had used just about every Environmental package out there, and then out of nowhere came Vue, and to me it's always just been a cheap French version of Bryce. Still, the artwork is what counts, and I wouldn't have made fun of somebody using a Coarse Sable brush as opposed to a Daniel Smith Fine. So, Jarm, I am now officially apologizing for my rude comments earlier. Might never see such silliness again from me, but I feel I owe you my sorrow for being so critical... Render on..!

I know just how you feel, BillyGoat; when I got Bryce 3, I was totally confounded. Read the manual over and over, got Real World Bryce book, still clueless. The only thing that helped me was a friend who was a Brycer did online voice chat lessons with me for a couple of months, real basic. That was enough to get me started, at least to understand the interface. I think the Bryce interface is kind of like the Amapi interface; either you get it or you don't. In fact, I have several s/w proggies with confusing interfaces; most of them I've uninstalled, or just let them sit. I think Vue is easier to learn, myself. I installed it, and right away got the idea. But then, I had used Bryce for a couple of years, so was familiar with the concepts. I do find the atmosphere and material editors in Vue to be simplified, and I still find the DTE in Bryce to be very intimidating. I still don't get it! But like tradivoro, each package has it's strong points and weaknesses; I like both, but tend to use Vue more these days although I'm trying to get back to Bryce a bit. And I got to say the Poser import to Vue is a biggie for me.

Hmm, sorry for not joining in here, but for some reason I didn't get any e-mails that this thread had come alive, kinda feel guilty as if I just wanted a flame war about Vue vs Bryce. Hmm, time to check settings. Interesting comments from everybody, it is truly what you are used to that matters, I was just so surprised that going back to something I once used could produce such frustration. Oh, Corel still haven't got back to me :-) best wishes Jody

Personally AgentSmith I like Mint chocolate chip. I like Bryce 4 better then Vue, although I like the Vue features. Its a toss up for me, we all have our preferences. Brian

If not for those preferences the world would be a very, very, dull place indeed. :) Cat

Amen. And, pass the hershey's syrup, please.