Sarsa, they've got records to see if things have been deleted. They won't think you're crazy. They just won't do anything because the images will be gone and that's actually all you can ask. They could shut it down, but you know they won't do it. They care about copyrights when and if someone complains and no other time (can you tell I've dealt with them before?) Well, I guess I won't bother to fax them that stuff with my signature, then. This whole thing has proved to be very annoying, very off pissing (as my best friend would say), and a big waste of energy. Oh, well. At least I got a good image out of it, and it made a few folks look into watermarking and other such options, and I'm working on another image now that is sort of related, so what the hey. bonni

I sent an email to customer service at JASC with the links to this and another thread here. I simply asked them to take a look at the threads.....and if they can help in any way it will be appreciated. Not sure how public they will be about it, but if she purchased their product, they will know how to contact her. The problem, of course, is that "Tina Giffifan" is no doubt not her name at all, but they maybe able to get some action from Yahoo privately that we could never get.

I have banned the member named "tina_gillilan@yahoo." from PoserPros. We have banned her for image theft and redistribution through making PSP tubes from our member's artwork.

Here's another possible email address for her that I found on the net. Someone mentioned a username of enoch...this seems to match a search for Tina Gillilan: enoch@frognet.net From some posts on the net, looks like she's been making these mistakes since January 2002 :) Looks like she was into stationery for awhile.

FrogNet, Inc 68 North Court St. suite B Athens, OH 45701 US Well, that matches the state where she lives. I'm not familiar enough with Ohio geography to know how close Athens is to St. Clairsville, which was where her previous ISP was located (and I'm too lazy to look it up right now). I don't think she's making mistakes. I think she's deliberately ripping people off and she knows it. It's not like she hasn't been caught at this before. She knows. She just doesn't care. Must be sad to wannabe that badly, eh? ;) bonni

Attached Link: http://groups.msn.com/TheBearsDenCoven/_homepage.msnw?pgmarket=en-us

Wants her stuff protected, but not anyone elses....interesting!

You guys should make a web page.. seriously. Write something up about why tubing existing artworks without permission is wrong, and offer other avenues for people who love tubes to pursue.. instructions for making your own work to tube, for instance, or links to places where you can tube to your heart's content. There are tons of royalty free sites out there. Maybe even offer some free tubes of the sorts that people like (fairys, etc). The people who tube with abandon won't care, but I bet that some of the tube collectors are clueless about the copyright issues involving tubes and wouldn't mind the education. The idea of tubes is not a bad one.. I use DigArts image hoses for postwork, for instance. Some education is needed. Also, you guys might want to check out the creative commons.. it's a new method for copyrighting your work so that mere mortals can understand it.

jkweston@microsoft.com that is the copyright guy for msn. write to him with the notice of which art has been stolen on which page and so on and if they do not remove it the comm {group} gets shut down

Kiera, these people who tube images already know everything about what you suggest. The 4 main PSP communities around the internet already state these things and all of them have PSP related tutorials so that members can create their own art work. Some of them do go about creating their own but others (and these are the ones who will tube anyones artwork regardless) just cannot be bothered at all. These are the ones that don't care. They know ALL about the copyright issues but are of the opinion that if it is on the internet (A public medium) then it is up for public grabs whether the artists state "please do not use without permission" with their work or not. They do not care until someone takes legal action. The PSP communities distance themselves from these particular people because they do understand the reprecussions of such behaviour.

Quite right BellaMorte. I'm a PsP user and there's tons of information about all the topics you indicate. I appreciate Kiera's efforts to be helpful, but like you say these people don't seem to use what's already available for this purpose. At some point they have to be responsible for their own behavior. If they're going to take on a hobby or start a business on the internet,they should do their homework and not expect others to do it for them. All they had to do in this instance was send an email to the artists in question and ask permission. Not such a hard thing to do really. I'm sure some would have gladly provided it.

Yes, but you guys are expending a lot of effort going after one person, when there are dozens more out there doing the exact same thing. I am not saying you should give up, but I think a more ogranized, public approach might help more than just a few people in this forum whose work is being tubed. Just my 2 cents. =)

That is what the PSP communities are about Kiera. Not only are they there for teaching people how to use the program and teach them new techniques to create their own images, but their forums discuss the copyright issues at least once a month. The offenders (as in more than one person) know the right and wrongs of what they are doing; they just chose to ignore those facts in favour of their hobby. All of us can discuss this till the cows come home and go back out again but the fact remains that these offenders are not going to stop what they are doing just because we tell them to. It will only take legal action against them to stop them. I know this because I have seen this whole scenario happen over and over ever since I got involved in the PSP communities back in 1999.

Kiera, I'm sorry if I sound like a bulldozer, I don't mean to be. This is an old topic for me and have seen the results as listed in my previous comment. Some are nice and will amend their ways, but others just do not care until legal action has been taken.

Ah, well.. I don't think you are getting what I am saying. My point is that people who do Poser work as a hobby aren't going to bother going after people for tubing their work once it gets to the point where it would cost money. Who can pay for lawyers? By making such an effort more public, you might get more attention/assistance from people who WILL go after tubers.. Disney, for example. It was just a thought. =) Anyway, I can't load this thread one more time.. the 298320938 images kill my dialup. =p So good luck!

sorry about the next post its pretty long but it was posted it the tube group today and has some good stuff in it.

After contacting my attorneys (I take no one's word over the actual laws) I have to tell you that it is not copyright BS. Sorry gals/guys but you can not claim "fair/public" use unless you are reviewing or using for educational needs. Just because you give something away for free doesn't prevent you from being liable for the money you are potentially costing the original artist and loss of income/reputation in some cases. The common concept of having "found" a tube on the net does not relinquish your liability one iota. Nor does stating that you will remove copyrighted material upon contact by creator. The law believes that you must "assume" copyright of all images not created or purchased by yourself. Nor does applying a "disclaimer" the sort of which I see on some of these messages remove your liability. There is no review included with any of your distributions and distribution is not part of the fair use act. Only reviewing and using in a classroom styled environment. Claiming that you are distributing for educational purposes only works if educational material is also transmitted and instructions regarding the end users inability to distribute or use in any public manner is fully stated. That means that you may not use items that you want to claim as "fair use" for linkware, stationary or anything else of that manner. The attorney explained to me that none of this falls under "fair use" at all and no court will consider it so. He further suggested that any group of artists affected should pool their resources and sue this and other groups like it thatt hey find distributing their items in a class action An example, let's say you tube an artists work and they offer that piece as a limited edition for sale item - print web design whatever. When you distribute the tube you ultimately make them look like liars and destroy the limited availability of their product and therefore take their sales away from them. As for posting publically - well if there is a copyright infringment matter my attorney tells me it should be posted where all members who may have downloaded the item can see that it is potentially libelous. By removing the member's account you have taken the full reponsibility of any actions against any members upon yourself as you are preventing her from her rights of notification. What does this mean for all of you, well it means that a member here when contacted by a lawyer will say they got the tube from this group. If the copyright holder tried to notify the group and was "silenced" through "unfair" (and my lawyer tells me the action is legally considered unfair) means then ultimately the liability (up to thousands of dollars) falls upon the group owner/moderators and the one who distributed to the group. The original offender (the one who used the tube) may not be found liable at all. In fact the group owner may be found fully responsible for misreprentation of the law and encouragement of unlawful activities and sued for loss of sales and punitive damages. Constantly crying that it isn't so, or fair use will not protect anyone from the law (ignorance is no excuse) or make the reality of it go away. You do yourself and the members of this group a hige disservice when you encourage them to infringe copyrights. Some day you will take the copyrighted image of an artist with the money and the passion to do something about it - sadly most of the tubes inquestin come from those who are trying to make a living doingwhat they love and they can lose much needed income because someone tubed their work and now it's availability is out of their control - frankly that is almost cruel considering the time and energy they spend on their work not to mention that many need the income. So while I say tube to your hearts content - best to make sure you know who's image that is and if you have permission. All my tubes that I distribute are 100% original so there will never be a copyright issue with them. Why not learn/develop a talent of your own other than snipping images? Take photos and snip from them, learn a 3-d program or create your images from brushes? It's not that difficult and you will certainly have a greater sense of accomplishment than getting huffy and acting like a petulant child who was told that matches can burna nd they can't play with them. Now if you want to remove me from your group so be it - but I had hoped to find tubers who were honest and respected the rights/works of others and didn't atttempt to sway people to believe that theft is ok. I was looking for those who take pride in themselves by distributing original work belonging to themselves in the manner that Jasc intended. If this group isn't one of those then it is definitely no loss at all to be removed from your midst. PjPix

The moderator Woodmouse had deleted all of Tina's posts and then says " Secondly, this person that they were talking about that was posting these tubes is NOT even a member IN this group! " I would be embarresed to post more of her replys to this here LOL It wasnt pretty . In nut shell she says "THIS IS THE END OF THIS FOOLISHNESS." and the dicussion was over she was tired of people ruining there fun and enjoyment.

Excellent tasquah! As far as I'm concerned the only "foolishness" is that committed by the tubers in question. You know the approach your attorney suggests, a group lawsuit, is not a bad idea, especially if this continues. It seems there are those who believe that they won't be sued and that's why it continues. For those of us who do this strictly as a hobby that may be true, but I know that a lot of you are trying to make a living from your images. It might be a way for a lot of people of limited means to finally get some justice. I'll bet there will even be a few of us "hobbiests" who would support it because of the principle of the thing. Sears Roebuck lost a lot of money in one of these group suits that was started by just one person on behalf of all Sears card holders who used their cards for a specified period of time. I was one who benefited. If one person can start a suit that beats Sears, I dont't think it would be hard to "set an example" with this group and "Tina the Tuber"! :)

Just for the record this was posted there by shama@firstva.com Who tried very hard i might say to enlighten them . Didnt work as far as i could tell . They got slamed hard and fast by the mod and told to shut up or else. The post was great though so i brought it back to share . Maybe we should invite this person here . Shama make "real" legal tubes and is very upfront about copyright issues .

You can't enlighten people who want to remain in darkness. These people know they're doing wrong and just plain don't want to do right. Their "hobby" is ripping off other people's creative hard work and by passing around these mangled versions of someone eles's talent, they feel that they have some sort of talent or ability. They're the most pathetic sort of wannabes. bonni

Tasquah - I am PjPix at shama@firstva.com ;-D I joined several tube groups to try to get those who do care to understand that the precedent being set by owners/mods of these groups is wrong. Can't sway the ones that don't care but can certainly shed light on it for those that really don't understand and are going by what the others tell them. I doubt my response to her will be posted but I'll tell you here: here is a snippet: "Since you asked, I am actually quoting the attorney I have on retainer that I asked about this in regards to my own artwork, we have a form "cease & desist" in place for things like this. Good idea though if you are going to run a group and insist on distributing these things to contact your own attorney so that you know the statement is not biased and learn what it would really take to protect yourself - those statements on the bottom of your emails aren't enough - not after you publically acknowledge that you know you are distributing copyrighted material. Maybe if you did that you wouldn't be so defensive but instead would realize that the artists who cry "foul" have rights. It should only take a consultation sitting, just be sure it is a lawyer who handles copyright and trademark issues. One of the rules here is that we aren't supposed to change the file names and such of the tubes that are snagged - why not?? Giving credit to the one who tubed an image is more important than respecting the copyright of the original artist? If you make linkware and I distribute it re-coloured from my site would you mind?? How about if I distribute your tubes without your names? Snowglobes or whatever graphics you use these for - would you mind if I took yours and distributed them without your name on them? Mind you I wouldn't do that - its a rhetorical question. Believe me when I tell you most artists don't appreciate that you find them because of tubes, maybe some do but none of the ones I know are too thrilled - the talks of class action lawsuits by those who have been "tubed" and distributed within one specific group are a clear indication of that dissatisfaction. That is the worst attitude - "please thank me for stealing or distributing what I know is stolen" it gives you more exposure. The amazing thing is I'd bet that you wouldn't dream of walking into a a small gallery or a store and stealing a tangible piece of art, book, greeting card whatever, nor would you encourage your children to do so, most of you seem like very nice people. Why is that amazing to me? Because I personally don't understand how anyone thinks there is a difference. "

Hey! I thought that might be you SilverMage!! I saw the last name on a post and said...hmmmm?

I don't think they sent this letter out..I also joined to see what was coming through...clearly lots of Garfields, Disney's, someone's countrystyle graphics, etc...in other words, loads of copyright violations. I got a chuckle out of this message from one of the irrate members:

"Ok, here we go yet again.....
I thought that this was done and over with, apparently you are having problems letting this go.

If a ACTUAL ARTIST contacts me, about any infringement of their art, and ASKS me to remove the images, then YES! I would be more than happy to!!!

YES, that was me passing along some tubes of Garfield, I did not tube them, but I shared them. And until Jim Davis comes and gives me a phone call or a hand written letter asking me NOT to share his art, I will continue to do so.

Just because I share something, does not mean I am FORCING any of this groups members to do the same or advocating such actions, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. If I go and shave my head and take a picture and tube it and share it with everyone, IS everyone else going to do the same thing? I really don't think so.
If I go posting and stating my opinion about this whole thing, and how idiotic this all really is, and how, in MY OWN OPINION that it is just a few people who are just trying to cause trouble, for others who are just having fun... and how these people really have NOTHING better to do with their petty little lives that cause someone else grief... will every other member in this club go and do the same thing???? I really don't think so. The last time I looked we didn't have any sheep in this club, and I am pretty sure that all of the members here CAN and WILL think for themselves. I do not control what another person does or doesn't do... there is the difference.

You know, if it wasn't for some of the tubes that are passed around, I wouldn't know who alot of these artists even were! And it is because of the tubes that I go searching these same artists out on the net, to BUY their art or prints ect.. You would think that most starving artists would LOVE that sort of exposure no?

By the way, can we have a actual CONTACT number for this attorney you are quoting all the time?
You can contact me thru my private e mail with this information if you like. I would like to hear all of this directly from the source. woodmouse22@shaw.ca

I sincerely HOPE this is the end of this."

or this one:

"I don't care what any one says about all of this nonsense with what's going on. I have been with this group for quite awhile and Mouse and Mare are wonderful people as well as great moderators and I feel we are here to have fun and that is what I am here for!! It is sad that there is those few people out there that just always have to try and make it hard on everyone else. If people want to go into copy right laws it is a never ending story and personally I hear enough of this with the music industry as well especially when these people make so much money as it is and personally I feel it goes to show you that money is the root of all evil!! it is always about money, that is pretty sad! well I am here to have fun and I have enjoyed this group so very much and I will continue to still enjoy staying in this group :) Thank you Mouse and Mare for all you do!! I appreciate you!!"

Quite obviously, these people will not change and it will take pulling these groups completely down...and even then, they will continue on mailing lists.

You can even look in Renderosity 2D Free Stuff and you will see copyright infringements or just do a search on the web for Free Tube Sites and you will be shaking your heads in dismay. Hard to stop indeed.

:)
Irene

I joined about 9 of them last night. In this group:
TranquilTubesAndGraphics
I found an image from Renderosity by Bubba, posted by someone with the yahoo handle of "webwalking1". I IM'd Bubba but I don't know if he's active much anymore so if anyone knows him maybe flip him an email?

You know what is needed is simply for several to join and just police the groups. Some do know what they are doing is wrong but I'm willing to bet a lot really don't realize. If several of us can patrol the groups and inform the artists of the violations we can hit the individuals and perhaps spread a bit of education. The website, www.rightsforartists.com, has sample letters you can copy word for word to send to violators.

Attached Link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/originaltubes/

LadySilverMadge, since Woodhouse ("woodchuck", "peckerwood","woodenhead"...whatever her "handle" is)wants the name of your lawyer, maybe you should have him/her send her an email! I'd be willing to help you pay the cost just to see her reaction :) Please share your new group with the Rendo PsP tube folks if you haven't already. I don't tube, but do use them periodically. I may sign up for your group just to stay on top of which places provide "legit" tubes.

Not a bad idea, but she already knows she is wrong that's why she is so defensive. But if I ever catch any of my work in her group - she'll get as much legal tape as I can drop on her thick skull! Because I won't just go after the tuber I'll go after her for encouraging the distribtuionof copyrighted material within a group she owns.

Just went through the obnoxious Yahoo routine and signed up for your group :) Hopefully you will accomodate someone who is not a "tube makeer", but a "tube user" :) Who knows.....maybe I will learn enough to be able to start making my own tubes! Having said that, here's another question: If I create and image using victoria and maybe clothing made by another vendor, can I turn that image into a tube for distribution? I raise this question, as I've not seen it addressed specifically.

Actually it was addressed here awhile back.. The image that you render is your own - period. Just be sure to use items (if free) that are available for commercial use if you use it as a tube so the end user can use it commercially. I have offered tubes of Koshini, the tonnimal kitty and such.

Oh BTW - to the comment about one's inability to receive monetary justcie if your copyright isn't registered. You can however get a cease & desist order and then file contempt of court charges if they continue you can also request court fees. You may not receive compensation yourself but they could be fined for violating a court order EG

I guess the readme files that come with commercial and free products should tell you if they can be used by you to create something that can be used for commercial ventures. Frankly I'm a long way from that....a long way from even making free tubes! I just got Poser after Christmas and still learning how to use it period :) Time will tell if I can ever turn it into more than a hobby. Thanks for the info.

Tje owner responded to me privately wanting her lawyer to contact mine.. Uhmmmmm I don't think she has one and I am certainly not paying for my lawyer to explain copyrights to her not when he charges hourly and it could take all day HAH. But I did tell her if she'd like to pay for his time herself up front I'd happily share the information. Lastly she commented that basically my tubes were crap that had floaties and jaggies where they had been cut out of the images. lol They were never a part of an image, they were rendered in Poser exported in tiff format with the mask applied for transparency and then copied as a new trans file and exported as tubes. They come out very clean that way. Very sad really...

Just out of curiousity, I did a search for all the tube groups at Yahoo and came up with a whopping 693. Some contain only 5 or 6 members but there are a number of big ones - the highest membership had 2,391 members. This is what you up against...then there are the mailing lists. There were even a few groups at Yahoo where you could only be 'invited' to join...wonder what they're passing around. :) Irene

When I started with PSP I diddn't know what was wrong or not. I used the tubes that are forbidden, was a member of that kind of groups. But not any more I found out what I could and couldn't do and now I'm a member of a payed site for tubes. I did use the wrong tubes but here in the Netherlands toy can get them at learning sites. When I started I went to a learning site for PSP beginners and thought it was alright they know what to do but now I realise it isn't alright. Where I live you never hear things about violation of copyright. And now that my own art is stolen I know what it feels like. I diddn't tube for about a year now lost my interest when I found out how they got the tubes. I'm not a member anymore on any PSP club but now I applied to the group from Silvermarge I love PSP but not in the wrong way

I think I posted this yesterday....if not here, at the other thread. I sent an email to JASC....they make PSP and told them about this thread. I doubt they will comment publicly, but it wouldn't hurt for them to hear from a few more people. The reason being is that their software is being used for what amounts to illegal purposes. I find it implausible that they would approve. LadySilverMadge: I've seen your tubes....there are no "jaggies"...but then you know that!:) Creating a tube from an image rendered in Poser would be very easy indeed. I know a jaggie when I see it. I do on-line plays with another person. We use real cats as the actors! The cats have to be "cut out" of their photos in order to be costumed. If you want to see "jaggies" you should see some of the photos we get from people who don't know how to properly cut out the background! :) Actually I think you should put your attorney in contact with hers and then send her the bill! :)

"Lastly she commented that basically my tubes were crap that had floaties and jaggies " ROLF thats to gosh darn funny. When all else fails go for the throat. The ultimite tuber insult. Problum is it only works for people who only experience with Psp is the magic wand and eraser tool.

Great thread...The exact same thing goes on with Incredimail stationary groups.. I joined a bunch of em (or tried to) to look for stolen art.. Several times I was refused membership (how dare they?!!) or thrown out for pointing out stolen works on these groups.. There is no easy answer for this..

pushinfaders: Can you provide some links to stationery sites you know to be a "problem"? Don't want to put you on the spot, but it would be good to know. I rarely use stationery since getting XP....just got tired of it I guess....but when I do, I generally use Cloud 8 (not to be confused with Cloud 9, which is also a stationery site). I think their stuff is created by promoting a wide variety of artists who do original work. Would be interested in your observations.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/all_sophisticated_graphics/

I've already IM'd two people who's images I've found. If you post poser renders you might want to watch this one. I plan to post quickie bryce images to stay in. ;)

Well all I can say, is that this kind of stuff just makes me SICK. The GALL of some people ~

You know....I did this a long time back, and going on memory, I think the steps were this:

I created a transparent gif (similar to making an imagespacer or clear gif that we sometimes use in webpage layouts to format how the page layout goes) I created it the same size as the actual image ~ then what I did is when I put it on the webpage, I made the actual image itself a "background" to a table and made the image the clear gif ~ so when they downloaded the image all they got was the clear gif! Then I encrypted the page so they couldnt find the name of the table background, and then added a dummy index.html in the directory. That pretty much stopped the stealing ~ excepting that they could do a "print screen" and paste it into PSP or Photoshop and then whack out the image that way. But of course this only works with images that you put on your site....and on a webpage....and doesnt stop people from copying from places like here or Poser Pro's etc. It really seems like such an uphill battle. There are literally thousands of people out there that have this distored view of what is acceptable when it comes to "using" (aka stealing) artwork from others and using it...and even worse, calling it their own. Its almost overwhelming to think that you can change the way the masses of people think. I recently had someone write to me about something or another (I cant recall at the moment what it was about, but it was some sort of inquiry about a tut or something like that - and during our email correspondence, they made this statement to me - jokingly of course but he meant every word of it I could tell - and his statement was this ~ "If its not nailed down its for the taking" ~ I never bothered to respond to him after that point. I'm sorry to all of you that have been effected by this...probably many more of us than we realize...I HATE these stupid Tubing Groups ~ they are mostly a bunch of wannabe artists that like to play like they can BE artistic ~ and their results are usually so icky and horrible, and they steal and ruin GOOD artwork in the process and dont give a %$#% who's toes they step on. Sickening.......DOWNRIGHT sickening!