Ok, I gotta get this off my chest. Doublecrash's last post, Weapons Of Mass Destruction, got 9 votes and has been in the Hot20 for ahwile. The image is blank, so I'm assuming the people who voted for it did so because they agree with the message. What is that??

Now, let me say right away that I'm not saying anything bad about Doublecrash (Stefano). I admire his work to no end, and I have several of his images picked as my favorites. I even voted for one of his images ("Not In My Name") because it was a damn good work of art, even though I disagree with it politically.

That being said, I DO disagree with WMD politically, but, honestly, that's not why I'm upset. It's just that a blank image has gotten into the hot20 on political agreement alone. Unless I am missing something here?? I would even disagree with a conservative, pro-american image (that would describe my politics) that was blank getting into the hot20.

Shouldn't hot20 work be there on artistic merit alone?

Doug

I am also surprised at this. But I guess that people will also vote for what they feel is the artistic concept/idea. Also, there is a lot of fan club voting. But you do have to be an excellent artist to get a fan club in the first place. sigh Angela

:) Back in the '70s there was a young artist in Paris who made a multi artistic exhibition in Paris by the name "Symphonie Monotone". There were only white walls in the gallery, and there was one tone played (Not sure which. lol) The exhibition was a hit, if I dont' remember wrong. What people regard art... is so diverse. Which I think, is some of the beauty of it. :) Britt

The thing is it only takes 8 votes in the period to put him in the hot 20. How long is a period? How many times can I vote per this period and for how many different people? Can I give one vote to every single image I view. The procedure never seems to be explaned.

So...if i bolt an old shoe to a canvas, and splatter some neon paint over it...and place it under a blacklight for display, is that art?

Although I agree with you somewhat, there are no guidlines as to why you can vote for an image. I myself vote for images that strike me as stunning, but others might vote for images that strike an emotion or have some sort of message which they agree with politically or for what ever reason. I don't necessarilly agree with DC's image either, but if I felt strongly about it, I might vote for it myself. Basicly, my point is, there are no guidlines or restrictions for voting on images. brholte (Benuamin Ross Holte)

the u in my name is actually a j.... eheh hehe

I'll be honest with ya, that's just good 'ol fan clubs going right there, but I'm not posting to complain about that instance. More power to Doublecrash, he's basically earned the right to get votes for whatever he does. I love his work and he's an awesome person that definitely wouldn't cheat the system. I hope I can someday get to his level of ability! There is a different instance that really has been chapping my ass about the Hot 20 in regards to a couple of images that 'may or may not' still be in there, though. Some of you probably will know which ones I'm referring to, but for the sake of the artist, I won't say exactly what ones. I understand that the Hot 20 is pretty loosely governed and operated, and has a lot to do with the overall popularity of an artist...but there are a couple of images that absolutely have no business being ranked, and as high as they 'are or were' ranked. Some people in here view the Hot 20 as just another feature that's no big deal...but in my mind, and I'm sure a couple of others share this viewpoint with me, my ultimate drive is to create an image that ranks in the top 20. To me, knowing that I was able to create an image that impressed so many folks that I was able to crack the top 20 images in the entire gallery in a specific time period is the ultimate feeling here on Renderosity and really makes me feel like one of the "big dogs" on campus. But when I see images with 8 or 9 votes or more, with even LESS COMMENTS alone on the image, it really makes me wonder if people are abusing the fact that they can use multiple names to vote for their own image. And it's not even an image that should garner a vote in my opinion. I hope I don't ruin all credibility I have gained by stating this complaint. It's just that ocddoug touched on something relating to my frustration, and I finally boiled over. It just hurts sometimes to see crap images rank higher than hell because of a cheater when I, along with many other artists, put hours upon hours into an image just to get to #20 and don't get there. I'm sure there are a few others that share this same feeling too...at least I hope so. Sometimes I do feel like the lone ranger when I voice an opinion. Just my 2 cents, or my 1/8 cent after taxes. MD

Hot20 abuse? Say it isn't so. First off, there's a few images in the Hot20 that, while fine images, leave me wondering how the heck they got there. I just don't think they are Hot20 material--someone has friends voting for them... As for Stefano's image, he used his work to make a point. Personally, I find his work makes much more of a statement to me than a few of the others in the gallery. I guess what it comes down to is this: the Hot20 is not necessarily a ranking of image quality. It's somehow a blend of artistic merit and "other"--that other being many things (including making statements and including having friends).

MadDog (you & I posted around the same time)--I agree with you totally. I know exactly which images you're talking about...

I agree that art is subjective...it can be anything really. But an entirely blank image? Obviously, there shouldn't be rules governing the votes, I'm just curious why those who voted for WMD voted for it. Britt: LOL that's funny as hell, the monotone note. Did you know that most appliances and even my computer hum in the note of B? It might just be America, or even just Colorado. Doug

Maddog: I know of the images of which you speak...I didn't want to say anything either.

mloates... Glad you're with me on this one. I went to look at Doublecrash's image and then I noticed that there are a couple of others that actually moved UP in the rankings since the last time I checked. I know most will say just to forget about it, but to me that's almost as dumb as taking someone else's art and calling it your own, ya know? I've always looked up to the Hot 20 as a goal, but when someone totally screws up the system with their shotty work, it really angers up the blood. MD

l glad you liked the story, Doug. But I don't quite see how to get around the problem with the Hot20 concept. Basically here (as any virutal community) there are friends, and friends of friends. To be honest I'm not sure how large percentage of the images posted in the galleries are ever "ranked" or even commented. I know I rarely get any comments on mine; and I think that's the case with most of the people here. Simply because people comment/look at the pictures of people they know, rather then actually take a stance and come with honest critique... Not sure what can be done with that though.... Prolly nuttin' Britt

Talk to 10 of your friends (you do have friends?) that have computers and get them to become Rendo members and then ask them to vote for your images. Since you can get on the Hot 20 with as few as 3 or 4 votes, you'll get there easily. Or you could earn it. Which would actually make you feel appreciated by the viewing public? And which would just make you kind of pathetic? BTW, this is in no way refering to Doublecrash's work. I don't believe that he asked anyone to vote for his image "WMD", I think that was spontaneous voting for an idea, not an image, since there really is no image. :^)

sounds like a whole bunch of jealousy going on here....sorry, but I'm new here and what has been commented here is pure jealousy....and accusing people of things you have no right to accuse them of as you know nothing for a fact....so only one style of work is "allowed" on the Hot 20? exxxxcccccuuuuuusssssssee me if I do not understand that at all!!!

I don't think anyone is jealous. There is just an expectation on most people's part that images that make the Hot 20 should show some special ability on the part of the artist that makes their work extraordinary in some way. As an example of what I mean, look at the image that is currently in the Hot 20 that was created by Hobbit. Then look at some of the others that are there, and how do they compare with Hobbit's work? I don't think this POV has anything to do with jealousy. Since you're new here, you might not realize that the artist who started this whole discussion (ocddoug) has had his work appear in the Hot 20 very often, so he would have little to be jealous about.

No, I'm not blaming Doublecrash whatsoever. He does some kick ass work. But look at the top few images in the hot20, Hobbit, Rochr --a few of the gods among many-- then go down three or four and see what happens lol.

We're not blaming Doublecrash at all...I enjoy his work just as much as Doug does...we're just venting some issues that really aren't related to DC at all...just the folks that do the voting. In DC's case, it's more fan club w/ that one...but there are a couple of other images that are...well........voted upon by the person's peers. To put it lightly. Now it's time for bed...been staring at HTML code all night, time to stare at the back of my eyelids! MD

Once again we come to the discussion of our infamous Hot20! Not very long ago we had a discussion that's somewhat related to this:

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=107&Form.ShowMessage=1371746

The Hot20 does have many benifits, unfortunately it's not perfect. I think we should all just try to vote responsibly. I think ocddoug has made it clear that he's not attacking Doublecrash so that's not even an issue. I know and admire both of them, and I know they both admire each other's works. So please let's not turn this into a pissing contest.

I must admit I do comment on familar people more (it may be praise, suggestions, or criticisms) simply because I am interested in what the person did, and not just the person's work. Round here we know each other not only by our works but also by IM, the forums, and our comments. This is what makes us a community. However, I think we should vote Responsibly and Fairly considering artistic factors only! without prejudice, favoritism, or nepotism. Lately I haven't been giving rankings, it stresses me out! I just give comments. =)

Stefano is Stefano, and he is a Great 3D guy so he has earned my respect and admiration for his skill. I may not always agree with him, but I defend his right to make such statements.

I also have noticed the images that you point out, they stick out like pebbles among gems. I have also checked out the galleries of the people who gave this other artist such high rankings and votes. There are several of them (not all)who are obviously newbies because their galleries are empty, or non-existant. This is obviously a case of shameless self-promotion. Any Wanker can get their buddies to join and vote for them. I know that if I ever crack the top 20, I want it be because my image has enough quality to merit being there. I intend to pay my dues.

Some people are always in the Hot 20 no matter what they post. Some people are in the Hot 20 because they engineer themselves into there. Some people are in the Hot 20 because their work merits it. It sort of works like in real life, so don't expect it to be a fair reflection of what is best in the galleries. I prefer Stefanos Black image to any number of the Candy Box lid designs that litter the Hot 20.

There is certainly no jealously from the memebers here against Stefano's work. We all admire his quality of work. And he gets way, way more comments on his works than votes. There is no way he is guilty of anything except having a huge fan club due to his talent. Its just that anyone could have produced the same exact image and it wouldn't have gotten a vote, ok maybe if Rochr or Hobbit did it it would have. Brenden hit it with the different ways there are of getting votes. Most of us just feel that the only way to get an image into the Hot20 should be due to its quality.

I think Stefano's work is always in Hot 20 because we know his talent, and he's earned our respect as an artist and as a person. The pure black image was intentional, it wasn't an unfortunate newbie accident or anything. LOL Ultimately it's a matter of opinion. Some people who are purists may think that only non-postworked images deserve to be there. Some people don't like Poser images in the Bryce galleries (exactly why I posted my last pic in the Poser galleries). Some guys just don't care. Me, as long as it's reasonable, It should be cool.

Are the character assassinations here really necessary here? It only shows your intellects aren't very high. The accusations on this thread go way beyond what should ever be allowed. I'm appalled the monitors are doing nothing about it. At least my artwork is my own, and not borrowed, or stolen pieces of textures, models, and ideas of someone else and then placed together and called "art." I'm new at Bryce 5, and learning a lot of things as the weeks go by. I enjoy intelligent conversation how to improve my work, and some people have been kind enough to offer advice, and encouragement. I have asked NO ONE to vote for my illustrations. Also, I had no idea there was even a "hot 20" list...and since finding out there is, I want no part of it. All artists here on Renderosity deserve the dignity of logical, and well-placed encouragement and constructive criticisms only. There is value even in the simple beginnings of a new artist. You people here on this thread seem to enjoy knocking people down with your lies, and criticizing the new work, even if they happen to do well. Your mean- spiritness and name-calling only shows your hard-heartedness and your lack of good communication skill. Just because somebody is doing it differently than you, or is newer than you to Renderosity doesn't mean they can't offer something to this community too. GROW UP!

Ouch! Do we really sound petty and mean? And are we lying?

"The accusations on this thread go way beyond what should ever be allowed. I'm appalled the monitors are doing nothing about it." ..............."or stolen pieces of textures, models, and ideas of someone else and then placed together and called "art." ".... ... I don't think we can beat you at "character assassinations" StormiDesigns! I vote for a HotHead20!

PS. Is there any particular reason why you seem to be taking this thread so personally?

Ha...yea, I ALWAYS steal textures and models myself, then use someone else's ideas and claim they are my own.

Well Stump you have sparked up a fine debate here. LOL. I will throw my $0.02 in for the heck of it. I am with Doug on this one. Like it has been said, art is subjective. But there is also an objective side of art as well. I think that is being lost for the most part here by the masses. I also see this thread as one much like mine in the past about ratings. I guess different people see the INTENT of the H20 differently than I. I would think as a MEMBER of a community, you would want your fellow artists BEST work displayed. It would seem to me, that, what is in the hot20 not only reflects on the artist, but the entire community (being that we are voting them in). I also echo Dougs views on Doublecrash, he is a great and inspiring artist. He has had images that blow me away (WMD not one of them, lol) But, I dont vote on an image cause I think a person is great. I do so becuase I think the artwork is. There's a limited amount of spots. To give a blank 1 second render a spot, when there are some images that a person toiled over for 2 days on and it kicks ass (objectivly) and have it never make it. Thats a bit disingenuous imo. To the artists that dont make it and the ones who have. As for the jealousy factor... The man that brought this topic up has NO PROBLEM getting in the H20. I really, truly dont think that jealousy has anything to do with this post. -Bruce

Who in this thread has stolen textures, ideas, etc from others? I know I haven't. If for some reason I absolutely have to use a texture that was done by someone else, I ALWAYS properly ask the artist first, or if it's a freebie available for download, I will give full credit in my image explanation. It is quite odd Storm that you took this so personally, where is the proof that we're referring to you? I understand you're a beginner and enjoy these forums, we all do. But to run off and let us all have it about something that basically isn't the topic of this thread is jumping the gun a little bit. I'm not going to dive into personal insults, it isn't worth it. I think the mods in this forum haven't jumped in because it's a valid discussion. I think also, it was worth bringing up...I'm glad Doug did. And Striving had it right...Doug gets in the Hot 20 all the time, he's bringing it up to defend some of the others that have a harder time getting in there, like myself. I appreciate that and thank him to no end. Outside of that, take this for what it's worth but I was a bit upset at Stormy's redirected insults. MD PS...prob losing a couple of fans in my "club"...oh well. :(

Well said striving! I highly doubt any of us were jealous. I love to see other members make the hot20, and I only vote for images that appeal to me. The ones that I think truely hit the mark and stand out above the others. And I don't want to cause any hard feelings but the hot20 isn't for newbies. I certainly have not produced any images yet that belong there. While it would certainly knock me over to get an image in there, I am not holding my breath. I still have a lot of learning to do and would not want anything of mine to go there prematurely. The hot20 is for hot images. Not saying a newb can't produce an awesome and deserving image but in general its not likely and its not what the hot20 is for. (Hope I'm not accused of lying again) :-D

Storm also said that he/she is new to the forum and this site. hopefully he/she will learn that in this forum, anything we post as a thread usually isn't any kind of attack on someone or their art (Unless they make it extremely obvious,which has never happened in the one year span of my membership here at renderosity). Anyway, Storm- I hope you weren't too offended by this thread, and I also hope you stick around long enough to experience the learning capabilities of this forum. Even experts learn new things from newbs... :) brholte

Like MadDog says, what makes you think anyone was talking about you, StormiDesigns? There were no names mentioned, at least I didn't see them. And the worst thing said was "shotty work". Believe me I've had worse things said about some of my work, some so bad I deleted the images from my gallery, just to get rid of an insulting comment. And I've had a few unkind things said to me in the Forum. But I can guarantee we are the kindlest, gentlest Forum at Renderosity. Post a few things in the Poser Gallery or ask a few newbie questions in their Forums...those guys play rough. :^) You'll never get treated like that here...too many of us object to things getting ugly in here. So even though no offence was meant by anything I've written in this thread, I apologize if any of it sounded like a personal attack. It was not meant to be.

Well said brholte! To Stormi, I don't think anyone was trying to attack anyone. As far as intellects not being too high, Renderosity is for ART nerds not intellectual nerds. LOL =) Now let's just close this topic and move on with our lives.

Amen Alvin!

I see the moderators removed the post that directly pointed out the ones targeted in this thread. That was the most offensive, and the reason for Stormi's anger. No one deserved what was dished out here, and the offending ones should be ashamed of themselves.

......"the offending ones"......? Wow! what's that all about?

I'm confused too. I never saw anything pointing at particular people. Maybe I just missed that post.

I don't think the moderators removed any posts either...........

The Post That Never Was

I didn't see such a post either, and I'm pretty sure that none have been removed.

I doublechecked and I don't think anything was removed either. Just someone trying to stir up the debate again...hahaha... MD

No janart, no Moderator deleted posts here. Brendan has delted two of his posts that were just duplicates. And, Mrdodobird deleted one of his own posts. Nothing was deleted by Stormi, unless it was deletd by himself, before anyone could actually bring it up on this page, then it really woudn't exsist at all. (a site oddity) ------- The discussion of the Hot 20 is fine, heated but fine. The Bryce forum people seem to be able to vent without pulling knives on each other. Stormi's anger is quite quick and intense, and only in my opinion a little backhanded to mention character assassinations and then (imo) do just that. Sorry, no offense but to imply anyone that uses say, freestuff items in their work can only have "art" and not a work of art is a little slighted. (again, imo) To explain, we're not all pro's here, we don't always build abslouteley everything we have in a picture, we're just having fun and exploring our own expression and art. I hope you don't feel persecuted, because your picture "This Is Eden", is #4 right now in the Hot 20. The real issue is what was stated in the first post. That members don't always vote for an image on artitic merit alone, sometimes when explained what a blank page is about they are moved/touched by just that. It helps show that power behind the art can lie within the people and not just the picture on the screen. Sometimes the emotion is in the context of the idea. AgentSmith

Agent Smith -- Stormi is a female, a professional artist, paintings, drawings, both in ink and charcoal or pencil. She is new to Bryce, and was simply having fun with it when this trouble broke out. She has left Renderosity for good. She doesn't feel welcome here anymore, and can't say as I blame her. She emailed me today with this information. She wants her work taken off the Top20 list. I'm wondering if there is a way to shut off the vote thing on the individual works? That may be a way to get her back, to insure this never happens again. We could have learned a lot from her, as she knows a lot about color and design. Thanks. Jan

Janart, when you post/upload an image you have the option to switch off votes/ranking/comments. I really don't feel anyone here would have been getting personal as the folks just aren't like that, this is a great forum and the people here are friendly, and helpful, I'm not a newb at bryce, but few of my pieces art get the message or feeling tht I one day hope to be able to express. But I believe that, to some extent this is the issue, I didn't vote for Crash's image and I'm amazed it got in the 20, but I do believe that Stefano would in no way have tried to fix things. I also believe that any circumstances of hot 20 images that were fixed are few and far between. So please tell Stormi that IMHO no one was directing an attack at her and that the people here really are a friendly crowd, we improve ourselves only by sharing our individual areas of expertise.

Herself then, my apologies. Her username and real name is listed as just "Stormi Designs" so, I couldn't know if Stormi was male or female. There is no way to take a pic from the Hot 20, unless the artist themselves deletes the pic from their gallery, then immdeiately re-upload it, leaving off the option for voting. The vote option is seen on the upload page, when you upload a new picture. All you need to do is to leave the box blank, next time. Hope you can all stay and enjoy Renderosity. Even I'm a nice guy, whenever I don't have to have my "Mod" hat all the way on. Yet, I have to say one more thing...I would really appreciate it if conclusions could be avoided being jumped to, if you will. Only another Mod would be able to see all deleted posts, and only a Mod would be able to see if another Mod had deleted one, so having you step in and state that I must have deleted a post, (when I haven't), which was a post that hasn't exsisted, which is the cause of your friends anger...well, that's kinda hard to understand. I can take it, lol, but if it was an assumption on the part of another member, instead of asking the member first...then emotions could run amuck, and that's kinda why I'm here. Hope you can understand my rambling, thanks, and hope to see you all stick around! AgentSmith

Thanks for your help, AgentSmith. But the post in question was pointing out her illustration exactly "as the third and fourth one down" which was undeniably the target. People should be more careful when they criticize without a good reason. Their reasons for this, in my opinion, were not even factual. Stormi didn't need to "jump to conclusions" when that particular post showed up. I am a real world artist too, and we have to go through some hellacious criticisms to get anywhere. So to say Stormi "blew up" for no reason doesn't even stand up. It was the lying and false accusations against her - and who wouldn't be angry about that? There is a sense of right and wrong that will get anybody's dander up, and lies are the strongest motivations for that. Stormi is a very nice, sweet, and caring person. All of this was just so unfair, and I believe she was the pure victim here. They keep saying here there was no way to tell who they were talking about on this thread. WRONG - more than just Stormi, or I could see it. There are others too. We are all saddened that Stormi is no longer in our little artist's circle. You need a new forum here on Renderosity. The Real World Artist's forum. Technical knowledge not necessarily required. I'm sure you are a very nice person, AgentSmith, you certainly seem like you are. The others are just plain heartless. They can pat themselves on their backs all they want to. Who cares... Oh, and it is true about the "artist's sensitivity" which makes our talent possible. Without it, we couldn't make our art. We should all take that into consideration before posting a comment on someone's illustration they have worked on very hard, with all of their soul and mind.

Janart As far as I can see, the quote was "But look at the top few images in the hot20, Hobbit, Rochr --a few of the gods among many-- then go down three or four and see what happens lol. " by ocddoug ok so I go down is that three or four and is it from Hobbits, or Rochrs????? Not what I would call exact, especially given that the Hot 20 is pretty dynamic. I am sad to see any artist leave the forum, and as I said in my previous post I do not believe that anyone was being singled out nor targetted. I'm sad to see Stormi leave out of principal (I haven't had the chance to get to know her), just as I am sad to see ocddoug misquoted. This is a friendly place let's keep it that way.

janart, I don't know what this technical knowledge BS you are talking about. Hobbit, Rochr to name just a couple of my favorite artist do some stunnigly brillant work using a combination of Bryce and photoshop, some of which look like digital pictures of paintings. Knowing how to use the program and it's secrets is only part of it. Some here have done some beautiful technical work but have never made to the hot20. No one here is blasting newbies (we were all there at one time) but when a picture makes it into the hot 20 and doesn't look like it has the same "quality" as the rest of the 20 you have to start wondering if they are just there because friends are just voting for it just because they are friends (it has been known to happen and isn't fair to the artist that put a lot of hard work and spirit into thier art). This may or may not be the case with Stormi, DC certainly didn't post his blank picture and expect it in the hot20. This subject has come up before in the forums debating on what is and isn't art. Mostly that's a personal thing of the artist and viewer. It just happens that this time Stormi was new here and apparently took something that wasn't directed at her and took it as a personal insult. You 2 did fly off the handle. And just as MY opinion,though her picture is appealing it doesn't fit in the hot20. Maybe that's just her style of art (I find the textures bland, flat though brightly coloful) but that's just my personal taste. Hell some of my renders that I thought were some of my best work didn't even get a vote in the monthly challenge, I'd drop dead if anything actually got to the hot20 but I still strive to reach that goal.

So it seems it is all Stormi's fault because the others simply didn't get enough votes! This doesn't make any sense at all. From an art theory point of view, a lot of texture doesn't make an artwork. It's fine if you like that sort of thing, and there are exceptions to the rule. Sometimes textures detract too much from the image. In art theory, the image must be balanced. The only balance some images have is by putting the object in the direct center of the illustration, which is a big no-no. If you want to call yourselves artists, please act like one. However, no one abused the voting, as everyone voted for the illustrations we liked. We are being clobbered here just because our point of view is different.