I was at Epilogue.net a while ago, man what a load of anti-poser freaks they are! They have a clear guideline aginst Poser artwork appearing there - which didn't make sense to me. So I decided to visit their chatroom and meet a few of the admins around - they replied that Poser is NOT 3D art and no just that, the two admins there said Poser art don't even deserve to be called art. It's all rubbish cause all it takes is to "...hit the render button and it's done in 2 seconds..." This sentiment was echoed by almost everyone there at the chatroom who said Poser is "shiny Plastic Mannequin" art. So I gave them a few URLs to the galleries of a number of good Poser artists here at Renderosity and waited for their expressions. They were silent for a while, then they started ranting again along the same lines. That struck me as strange, none of the Renderosity Poser artists here that I introduced to them created anything close to "shiny Plastic Mannequin" art. Curious, I finally asked them, how many of them have seen REAL Poser art and how many of them ARE members of Renderosity - ZIPPO Renderosity, please remove the membership guidelines for viewing the galleries so that those anti-Poser buttheads at places like Epilogue.net could see the light of Poser, shrivel-up and die

I've seen many places like the one above. Ditto on the removal of the need to become a member before viewing the galleries. People really need to see what Poser could actually do and not blindly blast it.

why? why would you try to baptist anyone? anybody with half a brain wouldn't dismiss a software just because it is fairly easy to produce nice looking pictures - to produce art is something quite different and you can do it if you can, with poser 1 or can't do it even with an "instant art creator version 16" if you don't have the ability. if they see what poser can do ("done in 2 secs" - i had a dream ;)) they will start ranting about lightwave, then about photoshop, etc... it's not poser that they're against, it's the snottyness of someone who regards himself an artist. let's face it, most poser renderings are just naive pinups with no message or idea behind it. but that is also true for most other "artwork" be it in digital media or analogue... just my 2 drahmas...

done in 2 seconds flat???? damn,which version of poser do they use,i want it..lol..i read a lot of this kind of thing,some of the art i see created with poser is better than some of the "art" i see in many other galleries,i know mine may qualify for the "shiny Plastic Mannequin" art title..lol...but i have seen many others here who totally blow away other type of art,maybe they do need their eyes opening to what poser is really capable of (just don't show them my gallery..lol)

Sounds as if they use their "art" as a form of S&M-lite, presumably because no dominatrix would let them kiss her kinky boots. Anyone that hung up on man-hours invested as the sole criterion of artistic excellence is past redeeming.

Sometimes what it takes for people to feel strong is to measure themselves against something, by taking strong opinions against a cause. It does not matter if it is a good cause, it just matters that they hold their opinions. (Humans seem to relish in their own ignorance....perhaps the bigger picture is too frightening for them) (maybe this is also why a number of people here like to rant against products that are not released yet too LOL) But anyway....it was not long ago where any CG art was not considered art, so maybe it just takes time for people to understand that art is not found in the technology used to create it, but in the emotions a final piece stirs in ones soul. Rawnrr

Even here at rosity there are quite a few people who are anti-poser. Nothing anyone says or shows them will ever change their minds about poser, stubborness is part of the artistic nature ;) We're better off without those people you spoke to BVH as they'd probably only go through the galleries & troll every poser piece they came across. Let them dream in their fantasy world where they are the elite, one day we'll wake them up with a shock as we've taken over with our "Shiny Plastic Mannequins"

You can't tell people who "know it all", anything. Plus, for those of us that really do know it all, they are damn irritating. (just kidding). Frankly, Poser has the best human content models, texture, hair, clothing, etc that I have seen. Their problem is that it isn't art unless you have done it all from scratch. With Poser, you don't have to.

This is a quote from the Epilogue.net guideleines concerning gallery submissions created with Poser or Bryce: "Artwork created in these programs must be of exceptional quality to be approved." Obviously, Poser is not forbidden there. The only conclusion I can make from the quote above is that art made with other softwares than Poser and Bryce does not have to be exceptional to be approved by Epilogue.net. It's OK if they are mediocre, as long as Poser is not involved... ;-)

wouldn't it be funny if the entire poser using community here joined over at Epilogue & flooded them with poser art? I'm not suggesting doing it for real as that would probably be a TOS violation here, but it would certainly teach them a thing or two & keep them very busy for quite some time ;)

HI I am from a traditional fine art background before getting into 3D i used to hang in alot of "tradtional" Illustration web forums I had many what i considered " Cyber freinds" in a forum called theispot.com once i started using Bryce3D however I became Satan incarnate in the eyes of many of the artists there!! that epilogue.net site is not anti-poser its semm anti- 3D art period From what i can see. The tradition Media illustration market is at it lowest point in history due to the mass proliferation of computer generated royalty free image banks Like GETTYImages destroying the Commissioned work Market so you wil find many artist who still use traditional nondigital media very resistant evne disdainfull of ALL CG Art So just move on and ignore them is my advise.

LOL @ c1rcle, I was just goona suggest for a bunch from here joining up over there and be really arrogant towards them, but your idea is way cooler.

This art "Snobbery" will continue until the end of time. Photography too had been seen as a heresy against true art all the way back to the Camera Obscura. I bet even coloured paint caused a riot from all the charcoal purists in 40000bc. Yes I also agree that non-members should see art in the galleries, maybe have a members only viewing section or some no-download thingie on the files. One fine day in the year 2469 even 3D Computer art will rage against some new form of technological tyranny.

This argument has been going on for a long time and it is a real shame because Epilogue is a really great website and has some amazing artists. I have bent over backwards trying to "educate" the editors about the use of Poser but it falls on deaf ears. When you submit an image you have to say what medium it was created in e.g digital, watercolour, oil etc. If you submit an image created in the digital medium, it should be judged on the quality of the image not whether you use Poser or not.. It's already been stated but this isn't really about Poser per se. It is just about ignorance and fear. One particular debate I had was particularly interesting when I was accused of being a fraud. Why should my image be accepted into epilogue when it took just "one click" to create it and other traditional artists hours of hard work to paint their person from scratch! That statement is one made out of fear and ignorance... simply. I do have a gallery at Epilogue but it is small in comparison to most and the number of rejections far outweight the number of approvals. And the reason I still submit there is that I don't see why I should be disqualified on the basis of the software that I use. My medium is digital and judge me on the quality, composition, etc of my image not my tools.

It's not just that web-site...check out the Fractal Forum here :O. Talk about hostile. rolls eyes

ohhhh epilogue....~shakes her head~ there is poser work in there {actually recently there was stolen poser work in there ...not just poser work BUT STOLEN work from here sorry it made me laugh at the ironey of it} their are indeed some poser artists from here in there but I tell you what they have a double standard. I have submited pieces that are without any post work...pure renders..and got told obviouse use of digital tools...yet there is pieces in there that the smudge tool needs to be taken away from people. it seems if you know someone in there it is easier to get in. God I know the work I have in there is just embarressing to me now. but they wont allow any of my other work in.{you know it is the type that when you very first get a comp you play with that mouse and your very first art proggy ...it looked like something you got excited and submitted it? that type of art. I was just happy that the mouse and I were geting along LOL I mean it is not like picking up a paintbrush or airbrush and working.} Also do NOT call them on their double standard...they get very mean about that O.O ...I mean like....really mean. They are very antiposer...but like I say. do judge art by the tools it was made with. ;)

~sighs thinking it is a bad morning~ that was suppose to be do NOT judge the art by the tools it was made with.

Some people would say that using terrigen or Vue to create landscapes isn't true 3D art. I had a friend (before converting him)who thought if it wasn't created in 3DSMax or Lightwave it wasn't 3d. So I had him come over to the house and started to show him some stuff I did just in poser and with Vue. He now owns both Vue Pose and Max and is luving the way he can use all 3 together.

These Epilogue.net people sound like my Highschool art teacher, If it wasn't in charcoal, pastels, acrylics, or oils it wasn't art; and unfortunately I was also brainwashed into that frame of mind, I didn't consider anythig created in a computer "Art"...then I got Photoshop and I loved it. After that and for a while I didn't consider anything 3D, "Art" infact I actually avoided anything 3D...then a 3D fanatic friend of mine gave me Poser for Christmas, and now I'm hooked, I've created a few images and every time I use it i like it even more, I still do my traditional stuff, but...I LOVE POSER!!!.

The moral of the story is "Never say you don't like something until you try it" and that applies to every thing...unless it looks painful.

Why do you even care what such people think?

I agree :-) let them have their private website and impose whatever medium requirements they wish poser has it own website(rosity etc.) let it go .

I know at least one "traditional" artist who does work similar to that found on Epilogue. When I showed him Poser he was fascinated ... went and got it as soon as he could. He immediately began making amazing stuff with it. In fact, he was so taken by it his wife got jealous of all the time he was spending with Poser and made him stop. Maybe if others can be "turned" we'll have even more good stuff in the galleries. It couldn't hurt Poser's reputation in the art world, either.

Not to sound elitist, but I just visited their gallery (and yeah, this was the one that had the "artist" whose technique was a beautiful example of right-click). I'm sorry, but these folks have more mediocre "art" in there than you can imagine. Same old fantasy crap we've seen since D&D was just emerging, most of it done by amateurs who make the Rsity hobbyists look like Old Masters. Not worth anyone's time.

Yeah, but, Joey, it's Real Art cause the computer didn't do it. God, I have heard this "the computer did it" since my ththird International Fractal Contest. I sat around waiting for a couple of weeks for the computer to do that-- it never did. And UF is a friendly program compared to Poser. Longer renders sometimes. I'm beginning to think that computer artists should emphasize and revel in the fact that what we do cannot be done without a computer-- this is more true in Fractals, and if you think fractals are still in the Grateful Dead cover phase, you don't know fractals. But cgi art comes close to computer only and animation surpasses it. I like blending postwork into 3D alot, but even that is strikingly computer specific. Yes you could create linoleum cut grunge brushes but fading them, burning them-- can we not just accept that creativity can be freed by the computer as well as tied up and sealed in boxes of cliche? I mean, sorry to hit the artistic heroes of many, but how many times has Valleyo repeated himself? If you are creative, the tool don't matter. If you are not, you can use Rembrandt's own brushes and oils and still produce the equivalence of Naked Vickis in Temples. Emily

I was raised on Dragon magazine's artwork. Artists known as Brom, Easley, Royo, Vallejo, have given much inspiration. The works of H.R. Giger blew my mind when I was first introduced. Early "Masters" have given me little more than a cheap representation of what I may see in everyday life.

This conversation along with the mentality, has grown quite old.

Either you like it or you don't, the end.

Often, a magazine cover will be more appealing than a Rembrandt. The medium is not what makes art, it may add to the WOW factor. If we are limited to using prehistoric methods in order to create what a society deems as art, society has grown quite pathetic.

Poser is a set of tools, much like like a box in which oils, brushes, and canvas is kept. Alone, it is nothing.
In regards to comparing it to other methods of CG art...

You spent how much on Maya, 3DSMAX?
That's an awfully large extension on your penis, eh?

Poser users need less than one tenth of such an extension to equal the same results in a still!

Chew on that!

did not yet read the whoel threads and reply (i know it is not serious :) but what i first read makes me sick ! especially peopel being in fetish/dominatrix sm art and that "complain" about plastic shiny look :) it is laughable about galleries vieable by non members i always longed for this, because i often want to show friends 3d arts on poser here and i have to either ask them to subscribe (they do not always want) or save the pic, send them and such... thagt's why i mirrored my own gallery on my website but it is tedious now for "hittign render hand having done in 2 seconds" sorry i have to laugh and vomit at the same time.. i know what lousy renders (raw) i obtained when i began, which i can now achive with more knowledge of lighting and using bette textures, yet when i see most galleries of guests at japanese poser websites (seems they have a code of honor not to use postwork except for compositing) i simply cry and would like to have my renders such as good.. i do not mention what people here can do taking a render and poswtorking it. i want to see THEIR art and to see how much time and care they spend onto it :)

Two minutes? Good thing I didn't run across that as I was trying to get a piece rendered for the Daz Platinum gallery (which they closed submisions earlier than their midnight claim, I might add - thanks a lot Daz).
The render alone took all day long and that was the third and final render. Then the postwork, etc. And putting the damn thing together took a few days as well. Add in the days I spend on textures...

Just proves they don't know what they're protesting about. Chalk it up to ignorance.

Oh, I get it now!

Just visited the site...

...apparently if your tools don't say "Crayola" or "Prang", you aren't considered an artist.

Now I understand, all the time I spent doodling on the desks back in high school, I was creating art.

Hmmm, where did that 96pack of Crayola go???

naked women in temples are a time honored artistic tradition, Queri! There is even a corresponding tradition for naked men which is likely much older. I mean... look at all those Greek gods and goddesses! ;) We've even got Venus fertility figurines popping up all over the Paleolithic period! g actually, I could care less if a woman is naked in a temple. I don't judge a render by its subject matter any more than I judge it by what it was rendered in... even if its a frequent theme or an inexpensive piece of software. If it uses paint, clay, film, pixels or polygons, etc etc... doesn't matter to me.

Ok i'm a bit new to this, so can someone explain this to me. If they don't like poser or bryce (if not bryce probably vue too), then what are they using or how do they make the art that's there? Is it painted by hand or what? 3dsm or lightwave maybe? I just clicked there and there are some really good pics there, but i've seen pics here just as good or better.

I'm looking at their "Art Guidelnes" and it states... "Poser, Bryce and other software: Artwork created in these programs must be of exceptional quality to be approved."

I work with 3d artists a lot and its funny cause they will snub their nose at poser yet I have caught them several time "sneaking" animations and meshes from poser to do their work. Even the animation master people snub poser yet the poser community is way larger. What is a mystery to me is if Max, Maya etc are so great for this (which they are on a commerical end) then why so few production examples? The net has tons and tons of poser movies, comic books etc yet so few max or maya stories. I know of no one who has a continuously running 3d art serial on a pay site that is not poser. When I did hosue construction there were also people like this. If you didn't cut your own wood by hand, mill it your self, ever used a kit or used prefab items you weren't a REAL carpenter. Of course the REAL carpenters took nearly a decade to get a house done and those still weren't really ever done. Well there are snobs everywhere, usually people who try to maintain a club to justify their own existance. On the high end those tools work way better than Poser. I think one of the other problems with poser is that some people keep using the same stock figures over and over and somehow those people end up getting the most exposure. I cringe everytime I see posette with that same yellow wig in some public ad like an amatuer car commercial etc. No wonder poser gets a bad wrap.

You can make give the link to an individual artist's gallery and outsiders can view it, as I understand it. Renderosity didn't make the galleries generally open because members whined and complained about their artwork being stolen, and then when the administration tried to take a step to making that more difficult (at least minimally), the membes whined and complained because they couldn't so easily download other artists' work to put to their own use on their hard drives. I don't know why we should expect another community to act rationally when this one doesn't have any consistency. To me, a real artist (which I'm not) wouldn't care a fig newton for the opinions of some self-righteous, art bigots. But if you do, then do work to please them and then they will let you in their doors...if that's what you want, it's easy enough to achieve. If not, do your own work and forget about the rules some other community makes. They have the same right to feel the way they do as you do...and they are not forcing you to look or join.

it's their site guys.. let 'em be snobs if they wanna be. does it really affect any of us here? unless you are trying to get into such sites... no. nope. not at all. just laugh at their 'quaint' ways and move on...

To me, All good art has the ability to draw the viewer into the emotions and viewpoint of the artist. Art lets the artist share ideas and feelings that words alone cannot express. I have seen many images the were done by beginers with low skill levels that have this quality. I have also seen many pieces that are technically perfect but fail to stir the soul in any way. Which is art? If an artist can make their viewers share that experiance, the work is a sucess. Most of us create art because we have something to share not because we hope for some commercial gain. The sharing is the important thing. This is the reason Renderosity is such a great place. It is a place were people share and artists can grow. The skill can be learned. Art is the mirror of the soul.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Y&Artist=jjsmlee

They just can't browse the gallery randomly.

Try this one.

-J.

People with that kind of attitude are the sort of people i don't want to know, in the real world as well as the art world, makes you wonder how many other things/people they judge...Steve

Ah, but they have not got Millennium cats and sea-serpents and cute littel mice, a free nut people, and Traugs and morphing genetalia and lots or red hair textures and flat-in-the-Z-direction Koshinis, and millions of little fairies and super hi-res men who are really women and clothes that can fit all and a guinea pig and loads of deer and fish and furniture from every era and free anime dolls and toon animals that can morph in to other toon animals and lots and lots of nakid girls in temples (many with swords) and ..... I say pity them, I like it here! Poser rules, ok!

If we continuously call what we do 'computer generated' art, we should get the sneering that term deserves. 'CG' shouldn't be used either. I've mentioned this before but it seems to get lost in the middle of longish threads. If they think a couple of clicks and a few seconds is all that's needed, it's because the industry has given what we do a label which is misleading to people who don't know better. The computer doesn't 'generate' it, we do. The computer just helps us get our vision into pixels. My proposal is that we all start using the term 'computer realized' art. How about it? Did anyone read this message?

LOL Elgyfu! Yes, Poser goodies rock!!

I suggest using time to create some art instead of coming here to bitch about what other people dont consider as art.

Does anyone see the irony here in these people complaining about "digital art" and yet they post their artwork on a computer in a "digital" format? I am personally not threatened by people making these comments as I know my abilities in both traditional and "un-traditional" artistic mediums. If you know you're an artist and you are confident in your abilities, who cares what other people say of your chosen medium?? Digital art is the way of the future and I have no problem with the term Computer Generated or CG Artist. I'm actually quite proud of it. My two cents...

Renderosity does not care what you guys do over there, as long as you do not attempt to represent Renderosity in an official way. So if everyone wants to join that site ... go ahead ..we don't care :) Lyrra

Maybe we should call our art CAI - Computer Assisted Images. :) Personally, I can't draw a straight line with a ruler , but I can create some decent artwork thanks to Poser, Photoshop, etc. I really respect and envy people who can draw with pencil, etc., but I don't think the tools alone determine the worthiness of the finished artwork.

elgyfu..LOVE THAT POST :)

to be fair, from what I've seen, there is very little 3d images posted on epilogue.net It seems to be a predominantly 2d traditional painting/illustrating community. I can understand their aversion to poser, not unlike the contempt 3d modellers have for poser because of its inability to create original meshes. all I'm saying is, they have their place, and poser users have 'rosity. personally, I'm kind of sick of the whole wacom airbrushed minimal render/maximum post look. but everyone on here loves it so I'm not gonna start ranting against it. thats just the predominant style on 'rosity. and epilogue has its own style.

mmmmm some of us CG artists do work traditional mediums as well..and the gallery I have there was all painted on the puter. to me it was the ultimate "obviouse use of digital tool" but amazingly and jaw dropingly they let it is. BUT they wont let in a HUGE amount of just amazing work. they do have a few mill dragons over there that will make your eyes pop too. But all in all it is a very unfriendly site they turn there back on art because they judge the tool. not the work. we all know that you dont just open poser and POOF a render happens! but they somehow invalidate that work. THAT is what is frustrating. contrary to popular belief{coughcough} poser does not work itself. elgyfu great post!!!!!!

LMAO!!!! I tried posting at epilogue too and got the "obvious use of digital tools" brush off too - as well as "evidence of smudging" ect... and I thought - Well, yeah! Of course there is obvious use of digital tools, thats my media! So I wonder is anyone ever gets an "obvious use of oil painting" or if they use pastels, perhaps an "evidence of smudging" rejecton notice. are you not supposed to be able to tell? It reminds me of an art teacher who once told me that abstracts were not real art, and if your "art" did not look like she thought it should look, it needed to be fixed. -lol good thing I skipped most of her classes. Jane

Yay! elgyfu, you hit it right on the button! Hahahahaaaaaaa..... ROFL! Just brilliant. :] Fish

im bored as hell and i surf all day and in almost all 3d sites all the pictures are done with poser and they look so reall!! shiny Plastic Mannequin!??!!?! are they blind or what?! im not an expert and im amazed what poser can do!!! and if poser "sucks" so much how come that almost every 3d artist have it? and there so many versions and they just keep coming? -vamps

someone pop over there and check this dude, Sandro Bassi, his Childhood's End piece do it or don't it has a major chunk of 3D art in it? i.e., the sphere and background, looks like Bryce background