Got Vue4 today and opend up the box. Short after, my familly did run for cover when I got angry and started to yell words (that I raelly not would want my children to hear) at the people at E-ON. Here I got my new application worth 499 +VAT+Shipping and they have put the CD into a cardboard folder!!!! Anyone using glasses or with any sence at all knows that glass would be scratched by paper unless it's paper specially made for glasses then consider what cardboard will do to plastic. Maybe acceptable for a CD on a magazine cover but not for a PRO application ( actually most magazines use real CD boxes). And even worse, one of the CDs had fallen out of the pocket and had loose inside that folder. I did read the text 'Applicaton' on it and with shivering hands i turned it around. ARGHHH several ugly scratch marks!!! This totally new CD looks worse than any of my 10 yaer old CDs. I put the CD in the CD player and crossed my fingers and, thank god it did install. Probably becase the worse mark was only 10mm from the edge and that the CD not is full. I will of course contact E-ON about this and try to get a new CD as I cant be sure that all content on it OK or that it will work the next time. Then I checked the other CD and it's the same with them, all scratched, not as much as the first CD but they are new and they are scratched and dusty. Not even my childrens handles CDs as sloppy as E-ON. If E-ON thinks it's to expensive to use real CD boxes then please add a EURO to the price so whe can get it or if you must have use that folder (that I have to admit looks nice) then for gods sake put a plastic cd cover around the CDs so they are protected from dust and scratches. What do you other think about this? And the possible bug. I imported a scene that i did in VUE4 and the texture (picture) was all wrong. In VUE4 i had set Picture Scale Y to -1 in order to flip the picture. After some comparing tests I found out that the the Picture Scale don't work. No matter what I enter here the picture looks the same. Trying the same in VUE4 works as expected. Is this a VUE4PRO bug? Is there any workaround (except for flipping the mapps in a paint app or fiddling with the UV info)? All is however not bad this far. I have never been able to use OpenGl in Vue4 (I'm a Nvidia user) but here the OpenGl seems to work well. That togheter with other changes makes object handling a lot faster and better than before. Thank you E-On for that! Now back to Vue for some more testings...

Sorry to hear about the scratches... I didn't make the jump yet. About your scene, if you look at earlier posts in the forum this week, someone mentionned a utility in the application CD to convert older scenes into Vue Pro.

Though I haven't had a chance to install it yet, I also had the same problem with the CD's when I recieved my shipment from e-on (from Oregon). Two were out of the sleeves they were supposed to be in and the one that was still in the cardboard sleeve had one of the loose CD's jammed into it, so that I had to pull them apart carefully. Very bad packaging. I agree for the price, it wouldn't have killed them to use a 3-CD jeweled case rather than that method. I also noticed the Vue registration number is now on a card, rather than stuck to the manual. Kinda like it better on the manual, but can always write the code on the manual cover, so just a small nitpick.

Can't comment on the rest yet. I hope to have it installed this weekend, but had to work and sleep today when it came. Just got a chance to skim through the manual.

When I was installing Vue Pro on Thursday, I noticed that there was a Vue 4 scene converter utility on the CD. There are a few short paragraphs in the manual (p 28) regarding it; but the scary part is that the utility is "not a supported product". To me, this means, not guaranteed to work, may in fact screw up your scene file, too bad, so sad. Hmmm. But it seems that this is just to convert Vue 2 or 3 files if you don't have Vue d'esprit 4. I did spend about 30 minutes yesterday morning converting old atmospheres (I think Vue 3), particularly Filips, to Vue 4 Pro. I opened them in regular Vue 4, and did a save atmosphere to a new folder in the Vue 4 Pro atmosphere folder. Took a bit of time, but the atmospheres seem to be fine in Pro. I agree with you on the goofy packaging of the CDs; what on earth were they thinking? I've already taken them out and put them in CD cases.

I have some more info about the texture problem. The scene I import is a VUE4 scene so I should not need to do any conversions. After import of the scene textures ar missplaced. If I compare with VUE4 I can get the same result there if I set the picture Y scale back to 1, This confirms that VUE4PRO ignores the values of the picture scale. Back in VUE4PRO I tries values such as 0.2 witch should make the texture repeat itself but nothing happens when I change the values. The neither material or scene preview change and and a test render confirms that changin the values wont make any differens. Then I removed the picture and then reasigned it again and now the material previews update when I change the values while the scene preview still don't and a testrender confirms that the texture still is missplaced in the scene even when the previews looks correct.? Also some new dissapointment: One can't do any new plants in the plant editor, only make minor changes to the existing ones. One can't add more branches or more flowers etc. This was not what I expected. I suppose it whould have been OK if the 30 plants that I can change whould have represented most sorts of plants but instead most of them are basically the same and worse of all there is only one flower and it's the kind that has all the blades down at the root. There is nothing here that can be used for making a rose etc. Installed the rendercow mainly to test that also that part of the CD was OK. First I installed it to the same computer as I run Vue on. Tried to start it and i got an icon down in the right corner. I could click it and acces the menu. So I thought that I should try to install it on another computer and so I did. Start it up..and nothing happens. No icon! Nothing. If I check the processes while stating it up I can see it appearing for half a second and then it dissapears again. I tried to find out if it generates a logfile but I could not find one so I have absolutely no idea why it won't start. Then I tried it on two more machines on my network and it wont start on any of them either! Any suggestions?

Can anyone tell me what the heck is happening?

Hmmm, have not installed my yet, still waiting for my Mover 4 download now....so messed up, but my came to me in the same condition as yours hellborn. dissapointing. Sharen

Try to import some meskes in obj format with uv maps and mtl files.On my system,with VUE4 PRO the meshes are there but not the maps.With VUE4 ,same meshes and files:the meshes and maps are correctly imported.What happens with yours?I hope E-on will soon fix importing 3d files with maps..For me it is a bad bug and i continue to use the excellent Vue4 until they correct this.BUT I must indicate that Poser files and maps are correctly imported in Vue 4 Pro on my system (4-5 tests for now with Poser importing)

I'll add mine to this, got my VuePro on Thurs, main app CD scratched. Box a bit crumpled. Totally annoying. I immediately made a copy of the CD and stored the original. Problem on object import, map applying. I still have a problem with disappearing terrains, if I make mods to first terrain it just disappears, bounding box there, no terrain, add another terrain, made changes, that one is fine. Did export one of the plants to Cinema and that worked fine. PZ3 come in fine. I really can't tell if VuePro is faster in rendering than Vue4 as I also crashed puter this week and rebuilt. I do expect E-on to replace my original app CD, sorry, I paid a lot of money for this. I expect an undamaged software. I have to try the 3ds import and export. @Sharen, I didn't get the Mover 4 yet. I think I will wait on you and see if your's installs ok.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1438331#5

You maybe have not played around with the plant editor. If you have the right bitmaps for it, you can do many completely new plants. The above link are just few samples while beta testing.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1438331#7

another sample

For the most part, I'm delighted with the new Vue4Pro. Open GL (which worked for short periods only in Vue4) now works extremely well. I'm still using Vue4 to convert Vue 3.1 models, textures, and atmos. I experienced the same problem with the CD's. My main install disk was loose in the box and was scratched. After making a horrid sound in my CD drive, it did install, much to my amazement.

My rendercows aren't working either. According to tech support a fix should be out soon for Windows 2000 and Windows XP My extra plant access codes (originally bought for Vue 3) are not working to install the Vue Pro Plant versions. Per tech support, a fix is being worked on to include in a Vue Pro Update. All of my imports so far have been via Poser . . .I haven't noticed texture problems yet . . . . Also for what it is worth -- I thought the CD packaging was a bit cheap though my CDs were Okay. I immediately stored them in jewel cases. . .

GeBe Arghh..lost my post Took me almos an our to write.. So here it is in a very short version. Do you mean that whe are ecpected to build new plants by combining the exisisting. Well i did try that in order to build a rose (newer changed the pictures) and what I got you can se in the image. Not that bad but if this is the way it's supposed to be done then you have at least 3 big problems. 1. It will not work together with wind (as you can se) 2. Will be a terrible lot of manual work to fit the peices together and even vorse if you want several plants with variations. 3. There are to few plants with to few variations in order for this to work. If I got this wrong then please correct me ;)

Opps forgot the image

The roses you have added are not Vue Roses. These are probbably objects. Only plants created in the plant editor or pure Vue plants will react in the wind. Not imported objects. But you can move the rose objects to the right place when you have the wind up. The plants I show at the links above, are all Vue plants changed in the plant editor. Guitta

BTW if you have the bonnie clumps, you can create better roses:-)

Well, my package arrived and two of the CDs were out of the packaging and the they all had some scratches with the worst being the application CD. There were a couple of nasty marks on it, and I was afraid it wouldn't install. But it did. I was also a little concerned about them because these weren't the manufactured CDs, but those bluish ones that you burn yourself. (I've noticed that alot of places are burning their own as opposed to having them mastered. I wonder why. I thought mastering CDs was realitively cheap. (The first one may cost, but I thought the copies after that were pretty cheap.) And I think the self-burn CDs are more sensitive to scratches. But like I said, the program installed fine. And that OpenGL works! It didn't work for me in Vue4.

The CD packaging is not very "Pro" is it? One of my CDs was out of its sleeve and the first Extras CD has a bad file (Tutorital Step 6) which returns a CRC Error. After checking the CD, it has a "dimple" on it near the end of the write, oh, about the place you'd find that last file. ;) Really doesn't bother me since the application is more important than some tutorial file. Haven't had a chance to do much with it yet as I'm absorbed in a modeling project, but like what I've seen so far, especially OpenGL. Want to do some test renders to see how it utilizes two HT Xeons.

Kuroyume0161 - I've been told that the problem (Tutorial Step 6) is actually not a damaged section of the CD, just a bad file ON the CD. At least that's what Steve Bell told me when I contacted tech support.

There was also a problem importing Lightwave image maps into Vue4Pro. He said that this should be fixed in the upcoming patch - due "hopefully" this coming week.

Let's keep our fingers crossed!

Concerning the packaging... one of my CD's was also out of its sleeve. The packaging wouldn't have been so bad if the CDs had been "locked" into its slot. I've received lots of expensive software in cardboard sleeves so I didn't think it was that big a deal - though as I said above I would have preferred the CDs secured in the slots!

There will always be bugs in new software - they can't test for every conceivable scenario. And I think that E-On will be doing a great job in addressing these points. It would be interesting to see if they can surpass World Builder and World Construction Set. Remember... Vue4Pro just came out!

Megalodon

megalodon: If you buy a package costing 499 and get scratched and dusty CDs. Do you consider that to be OK? If not, then you would also realise that it's an unnessesary risk to use such kind of package. GeBe. No that is not a 'Vue' rose if you buy that mean that I paid money just to get a rose to render. But it is still a Vue rose as it is built just the way you suggested. It was all described in my lost post. The rose itself is a primrose where the flower has been hidden and the blades has been used to form the flower instead. If I had changed the picture it would had looked even better. The steam is bamboo (maybe the Aralia would had been better). Same thing here, changing the picture would had made it look better. So this is a Vue plant, and it wont work using wind.... And yes I could of corse move the flower manually but that is something I could do without paying 299. The reason I currently are so upset is that as I have no needs to get stuff out of Vue, only to get stuff into Vue as Vue is my chosen renderer. The fact that I payed the 299 for the sidgrade was. 1. I can make my own plants. As this means that I don't have to buy them I will save some money. 2. Getting textures to update automatically when thay are changed is a big plus compared to the stupid Vue4 where not even reselecting the image is enough. One actually have to save the image with a new name before doing so in order for Vue4 to update. 3. I now have 5 computers in the network and getting the rendercow sounded as a god idea. Still not much for a 299 upgrade if compare to the initial cost of Vue4. But as I had not given myself a present lately I did buy it... And what did I get? 1. Well I can't actually make new plants. Only do minor changes to existing ones and the one supplied are more or less the same as I allready had in Vue4. So now I still have to buy plants, not much payback on that investement. 2. Ehh, currently the textures seems to have problem, so I have to go back to Vue4. Not much value there either. 3. Ehh the rendercows, well they don't work either. I wont even mention the word value here..oops I did anyway did I not. 4. The CD are scratched. Even a 2 year old rental DVD is less scratched than those brand new CDs. If I had have any money left after this investement I whould get drunk an forget about it... Maybe they should use me as a beta tester the next time.

Hey Hellborn... simmer down. :) I'm quite sure that E-On did not intend for your CD's to be scratched. Jewel cases would have been quite a bit cheaper. I guess they thought it would look nice to have them in something other than a standard jewel case and provide a larger-than-normal quick reference card. I'll bet that next time they don't use the same method!

I bought Lightwave when it was around $2000 "way back when" and there were lots of problems with ScreamerNet (i.e. like RenderCow) and that was alot more than this program! And there are STILL problems with ScreamerNet! That's why there are so many other network-rendering solutions available for Lightwave! There were ALSO problems with updating image maps and a myriad of other nuisances that I won't go into.

The point is, you will NEVER have perfectly-running software right off the bat. Should we accept that? Yes and no. We have to understand that it's impossible to test for everything. That's why we ask for improvements and fixes and E-On has been pretty good about updates IMHO. If I gave up on software because it didn't work exactly as advertised I'd end up NOT using any software. There are always problems. Fortunately there are forums such as this where people help each other through those problems - and of course E-On watches here as well. I'll bet that all of your problems will be addressed - hopefully soon. And... hopefully you have already contacted E-On support and explained each of the issues. They DO listen... they want to keep their customers!

So... hang in there! I have a good feeling that this program will be worth it!

Megalodon

Actually is not unreasonable to expect features to work correctly out of the box. That is the way it used to be before software companies figured they could get their loyal members to do the beta for them and then patch it as need be. True, that some configurations will indeed cause issues that may not be noticeable out of the gate, but blatent errors are such that should have been corrected before it was mastered.

If you do the custom install, and pick almost everything, you can't install the software. It dies on the Step 6 tutorial and asks you to put in the correct disk which is none of the ones that come with it. You then have to use Task Manager to shut it down, but when you do that, you have to start the install again with the typical setting. Very annoying and definitely a bug that should have been seen before the CD's were mastered. BTW, I did notice that the CD's weren't scratched, as others were, just out of their sleeves upon shipment.

The OpenGL is definitely working very slick in this version and is actually very usable for me on my 9700 Pro. Since that seems to be the only thing that I bought it for that actually works, not sure if it was worth the money or not.

The plant editor is not what I expected and I fully agree with Hellborn on it. I knew after reading the fine print that you couldn't make your own plants, just edit current ones, but I thought there would be a much more extensive control then move the tree around a bit and make some diameter/angle changes. I guess I was expecting something like the treelab from Bryce. I figured there would be much more branch control and shape control, but alas. The diameter control for the trunk seems to make the tree at the bottom really bunch up and look unnatural, though I guess you could hide the bottom. Still can't seem to perk up that pathetic fir tree into something that looks right. Wonder if Phoul will share how he made those firs in his demo reel for e-on.

I haven't seen what Hellborn is experiencing with Vue 4 scenes, but I have a couple scenes that show up fine in the OpenGL preview, but then just render as completely black? Any ideas on this?

Just some thoughts on my first night.

ShadowWind

I'm software developer myself so I know it is hard to test everything. But bying something mainly for three god reason and when reciving the product realise that none of those three reasons work as expected is a bit to much. I did find a workaround for the rendercow problem. As the cow only worked on the computer that also had Vue4pro installed my guess is that a file is missing in the rendercow installer. So it can be solved by also installing Vue4Pro. And here are some more texture problem. Dosen't anything work as it should? It's a scene imported from Vue. You can se that the alpha is correct in the Alph Plane dialog and you can se that its correct in the OpenGl preview (it also renders correctly inside Vue) but check out the Hyper Vue render at the bottom. The Apha is reversed and I suppose that it's the same as happend on the last airplane render but with the difference that it affected the alpha controlling the material distribution.

Hellborn - I ran into a texture problem last night in Vue4Pro when trying to work on a scene I began in Vue4. It was a scene with pictures hanging in an art gallery. The pictures were .jpg mapped onto rectangles. None of them were right. When I tried to use the material editor to remap them, no matter what settings I tried, nothing changed. They were all off kilter. Even tried to create new objects and still had the same problem. Looks like I'll be finishing this scene in good old Vue 4. -Lin

ShadowWind, the Tutorial Step 6 problem has already been discussed above. It does exist on the Extras 1 CD, but the file is corrupt. So, better to NOT select the tutorials when doing a custom installation and copy them over yourself, skipping that file. Most likely, a corrected file will be included with the service release or as a separate download soon.

Thanks kuroyume, Yeah, I knew that the STep 6 had a problem, but I didn't know it would stop the install, just say that it was corrupt and go on. I'll have to look again, but I couldn't locate a checkbox for the tutorials to keep them out of the installation. But maybe I missed it, or it's called something different. Online Documentation perhaps?

Actually it seems that you can't not install the tutorials, unless you want to forego installing the scenes. This means that you can never use the full install at all, and the custom install, if you want to leave out a good part of the installation. Correcting the Step 6 file in a download will fix the file, but the CD is basically defective due to the installer's inability to ignore that file. This means that the two options (full/custom) are always going to be defective because of the one CD error. For $300-$500, I would think that e-on should replace the Extras CD so that future use of the installation will work properly should it need to be reinstalled.

BTW, it does seem that if you bought the extra vegetation pack for Vue 4, that they do work in Vue 4 Pro, except the Lombardy Poplar was messed up, texture wise.

ShadowWind

Interesting. I did a Full install and it never even asked to install the example scenes or tutorials. Just inserted the Extras CDs after the fact and copied them myself. That's when I discovered the problem with Step 6. They'll definitely have to fix this. Lots of CDs to send out since this isn't something that can be fixed with a patch!

Shadowind.... Software is ALOT more complex than it was in the 80's and 90's. Hell, just having to run through the hoops that an OS today makes them is daunting. You can't compare something like Vue4Pro to something created in 1985. I haven't bought ANY software in the last few years that doesn't have something wrong with it and requires patching of some sort. And some software has problems that doesn't even GET patched even though the companies are well aware of the problem - they just move on to the next PAID version.

"That is the way it used to be before software companies figured they could get their loyal members to do the beta for them and then patch it as need be." Well... that's kinda cynical - and I will give E-On the benefit of the doubt before making that sort of blanket statement referring to them in particular. "True, that some configurations will indeed cause issues that may not be noticeable out of the gate, but blatent errors are such that should have been corrected before it was mastered." Perhaps these errors weren't as blatantly obvious to E-On and their beta testers as they are to this large group.

Regarding the Step 6 tutorial file... don't you think that it's most likely that the file WAS working fine during their testing and that somehow between the final OK and the mastering it got corrupted? I think it HIGHLY unlikely that E-On knew it was corrupt and went ahead and left it there anyway.

Ultimately... YES, we ALL want software that works perfectly as advertised right out of the box. Will that happen? Chances are it won't because software increases in complexity all the time. If you want to complain about it and say that the company shouldn't do that, fine. That is your right and I respect that. I believe that it is much more productive to list the problems in this forum AND tell E-On the details AND be rational and not angry. That way, everyone knows about the problems and E-On can work on resolving them. if you think that MAYA (when it was priced in the tens of thousands of dollars) didn't have bugs that were VERY nasty you would be wrong - a friend of mine works with it all of the time.

I agree, I wish that the plant editor was alot more functional and versatile. Hopefully E-On will address this as well. And I also wish that there were substantially MORE foliage available. In time hopefully we'll get it. It doesn't all happen at once.

OK, now that's finally over with! :)

Megalodon

So I guess if you bought a $500 TV, got it setup (if you could do that) and turned it on, and it only got one channel, you'd just go, "Oh, it's okay. They'll probably send a repairman out to fix it in a week or two. Good thing I like the Food Channel." That would be okay, eh? I think most people would have brought it back to the store, but since e-On and most software companies don't offer refunds, it's pretty much, we got your money, and we might get it to work later on. The examples you gave for Maya and Lightwave are part of this practice, but they don't excuse any software company that takes this tact.

Maybe I'm jaded. I've been a programmer for 18 years, I've seen the industry take this trend. It's not because software is more complicated necessarily, but because budgets and deadlines force the hand of the company to release and then test and patch. In the old days, patches were not easily distributable, so they had to have it right before it left, or it would be quite costly. Also there was no wrappers like OpenGL and DirectX to make life easier for everyone. You had to code for 20-30 individual card drivers (remember the old games that had a selection for video and audio card), which was far more prone to errors and still was pretty much solid out of the gate. I've yet to see a review in recent days that doesn't include the phrase, "This doesn't work, but there is a patch expected out soon." Just look at the Poser 5 fiasco.

I'm not saying that E-On is one of these companies, but the lack of alpha/beta testing in very obvious places (where the problem is inherent on everyone's machine) is hard to ignore and makes me wonder.

I agree that the plant editor is a step in the right direction and that the problems are within Eon's grasp to fix and I have no doubt that they will in fact do that...

And yes, I'll go away now, because it's not proper to go against the grain here apparently and actually say your mind, informing others of what they are getting themselves into. Silence is the best friend of the software industry. I'm not angry at all, disappointed maybe, but having been burned by the industry before, and seeing this happen far too often, does tend to raise my blood pressure, especially after the price...

ShadowWind

ShadowWind... First, comparing a TV to software is definitely comparing apples to oranges, TV's are set and the basic technology has been arouond for a LONG time. Software is always evolving and this particular code has NEVER been put together in just this way EVER before.

I'm not "attacking" you directly, but how do you know how much alpha/beta testing was done and in what areas? Perhaps E-On did not do enough testing or perhaps they did, I cetainly don't know.

"And yes, I'll go away now, because it's not proper to go against the grain here apparently and actually say your mind, informing others of what they are getting themselves into. Silence is the best friend of the software industry. I'm not angry at all, disappointed maybe, but having been burned by the industry before, and seeing this happen far too often, does tend to raise my blood pressure, especially after the price..." I must say I'm sorry you feel that way. How many people here are illustrating that you're going against the grain? I'm probably the most vocal and haven't felt I was berating you. Since you've been a programmer for 18 years and you know what the state of the industry is... why did you buy the software NOW before ANY patches were implemented? You know how software is and Vue4Pro is not immune to problems. I just get the feeling that you want to rant and rave (okay, show disappointment) instead of really trying to help the situation. If you're that touchy about discussion you should stay away from the Lightwave and Messiah user groups!

Take a chill pill ShadowWind and relax. Feel free to keep coming back with critiques about the software as often as you like. I'm not affiliated with E-On in any way and I voice my own opinion as do you. Fotunately we can do that. But don't go away thinking that everyone is coming down on you. I'm not! :)

Megalodon

I'm sorry if I offended anyone or seemed touchy over discussion. My life issues tend to creep into my online persona and the stress tends to bring out the worst in me. I bought Vue 4 Pro, to enjoy the new features, not to deal with the problems. You're right, I should have known better I guess.

BTW, I bought it now instead of waiting until the last possible minute of the introductory price, because there is a slight chance I may be in the hospital soon and was afraid that I wouldn't be home to get the deal. I didn't buy Poser 5, because of all the problems and have avoided many such software until they were worked out. I always have to wonder though about those people that don't have an internet connection or slow dialups to get these patches. I guess they are just out of luck.

I pressure my team to make sure the software works out of the box and have gotten into arguments with managers over release dates of new versions due to it. I am not a believer in the patch it later scenario and have been quite outspoken about it in my career. It wouldn't be so bad if the industry had protections for the consumer to counter these type of things. Refunds and limited options due to the untried user license make such things even more frustrating when they happen. But if people accept it as "business as usual", it's going to keep happening to the point where companies will rely on it. Curious Labs was a great example of a company that used such attitude to release a known bug central on the crowd, so that they could get a quick flow of cash, leaving many stranded for as long as months. If they had bellyed up after the release, the people would have just been screwed.

Again, I'm sorry to rant and rave, but I do think it's helpful to let people know what they are getting into and what can be done to stop a practice that causes a lot of problems for people all over. It's one of those personality flaws I guess. :) I do sppreciate the dialog.

ShadowWind

PS: You are right about the TV and software analogy, that the technology is much different. However, value to the end consumer is the same. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Customers don't generally care how complicated it was, just that it should work as advertised or it's defective.

ShadowWind

But ShadowWind... by your definition, 99 to 100% of the software we buy is defective. Do we stop using it? How often does Windows crash for users? Lightwave crashes - current price $1595. Project Messiah crashes - current price for Studio $995. Digi-Element's World Builder crashes - current price for the Pro version (similar to VuePro) is $999. ALL of the above software packages (which are more expensive than VuePro) crash AND have bugs. So they are ALL defective? Well, the bugs ARE being addressed and hopefully will be fixed. Lightwave is in version 7.5 soon to be 8. Messiah is in version 1.5 and has had an immense number of bugs. World Builder is in version 3.5 soon to be version 4. VuePro is in version ONE. It DOES have bugs. What did you expect. Of course, software COMPLETELY without bugs. Here's a newsflash... it ain't EVER gonna happen anytime soon. But actually expecting the software you buy to be completely bug-free is totally unrealistic. And I honestly don't care WHAT software you buy - nothing is without problems. I'll bet you a dollar that the software you develop HAS bugs. It's just a sad fact of life - software will ALWAYS have bugs. Well... at least until AI's take over the development! :) We MUST keep letting them know about the bugs because otherwise they won't get to fixing them. But when people rant and whine (not pointing at you ShadowWind :) about something instead of calmly discussing the problem it gets annoying. Of course people SHOULD voice their opinions but they should also use common sense. In this instance, let's see what E-On has in their upcoming patch - hopefully something that will address most (if not all) of the problems discussed in this forum. I've worked in Retail for over 16 years and with computer graphics for over 7. Over the years I've come to the realization that not everything works as advertised. It would be great if it did, but... The sooner you (everyone) comes to realize this - that THIS is the real world, the better off you (everyone) will be. Ahhh... in a perfect world.... Megalodon PS. No offense is taken or meant. We all try to be professionals. Let's keep a talking and improving ourselves and our craft!

Yes, that's right, 99%-100% is defective. Do we stop using it? Maybe, lots of people have switched to Linux and such. If Lightwave doesn't do what you want or doesn't work the way it's supposed to, due to crashing, etc, then people will switch. Heck, Daz Studio isn't even out yet, and people are considering switching from Poser because they are tired of the bugs. It all depends on the severity of the bug in question, and how it effects performance after purchase for particular people. If it was an animation effect that had a bug, I wouldn't notice it and I still would use it. Have you seen the posts that say "I am going back to Vue 4 until the bugs are straightened out?"

I'm not being unrealistic. I'm not saying that software is without bugs, from Windows to NASA. But bugs are like cyanide in drinking water. Some are expected, a lot is too much. We aren't talking about bugs that are specific to a certain system or hardware configuration. If OpenGL worked for the majority and didn't work for me, I'd accept that as being a bug that they should fix, but it's something I know is very, very difficult to test and I wouldn't rant and whine as you call it. These are open system independant bugs that any tester should have found if they had the time and resources to do so. Most companies, at least ones I've worked for, test the master after it's created, but before a production run, and some even do spot checks during that run. Whole features are said not to work properly on a majority of machines. This is the kind of bugs that I consider too much and if that is being unrealistic, then I guess I'll go back to my dream world. So, I don't expect there to be perfection, as nothing is. I do expect there to be a certain level of quality control before it hits the street and not us being beta testers.

As I said, Eon may not be guilty of any this. I've never said they wouldn't make due on their promises or that they are a bad company. I'm merely stating that mistakes such as this do not play well with their clients and with enough of such things, people will go elsewhere if it doesn't do what they want or crashes. BTW, people generally use software that has bugs, because good, bad, or indifferent, they've paid for it, and having no other option available, don't want to lose the cash completely.

So I'll agree to disagree and leave it that. I'm a tech person, you are a marketing/retail person, two disciplines that really never see eye tp eye on such matters. I can't tell you how many times this conversation has come up at work, with known bugs that are considered too time consuming to hold back a release. It happens more often than not in the industry and this is what I argue against when I can. Not the fact that software should have no bugs at all.

That should read "don't want to lose the cash completely if the program generally does what they want it to do without too much hassle.

Well.... Lightwave 6 was so riddled with bugs MOST users were pulling their hair out. But it also seems that most users stuck with the program and it's been improved considerably since that time. But you are right, it does depend on the tool that you use the most. If animation were broken in Lightwave and I used primarily animation, then I would be incredibly ticked off. I would end up going back to the previous version (as some VuePro users are doing going back to Vue4) and waiting til they get it fixed. Now... if they didn't address the issue then I would probably jump ship and try something else. Then again... I've got alot invested in Lightwave with the plugins so that might not be an option. Let us hope that E-On supports their customers coompletely and fixes all of the broken items as well as upgrading certain aspects such as the plant editor. Ya see.... we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. I think that's great! (Though I think that we're in basic agreement that software should come ouoot bugless!) How often do these disagreements get into name calling and belligerant remarks? Too often. Thanks ShadowWind for remaining professional throughout! Fantastic! :) Megalodon