There are a couple of new characters in free stuff that portray full figured women, and while I think the artist did a lovely job with the characters and the textures are beautiful...It's nice to see a well rounded body shape, and the models are attractive and sexy; I have to say that I'm more than a little taken aback with the titles. I'm usually the last person to turn all PC, but as a rather voluptuous gal myself, I have to admit I feel a little pang every time I see the names "Big Fat Mama", "Big Fat Mature Woman", and "Fatsy". Maybe I'm the only person who feels this way; I only know how it makes me feel. These characters portray beautiful women; don't they deserve beautiful names? Just my .02 Casey

You're not the only one, which is one of the reasons I haven't downloaded them yet.

I find the titles as being hostile as well as a bit insensitive, and I am no fan of corpulence. I know that it is not good form to criticize gifts, however I have one question: Is it Ok for them to have Hellborn's full geometry file as an OBJ and not as a PCF? Plus , I find zips within zips to be an interesting concept, but perhaps this submission could have been done a bit more efficiently. Not only is the geometry duplicated, but as far as I know, Hellborn's model is still available from his site.

Chailynne: Same here Jaager: I don't like to criticize gifts either, but seeing them agin today, after dealing with a similar issue in one of the NGs I subscribe to where someone posted cosplay pics under the subject line : "The fat and ugly ones are the funniest"...I'm a bit sensitive to the issue today. I suppose the obj issue would be for Hellborn to take up...maybe he gave permission....maybe he doesn't know about it. Good question though.

It is the P3 fem with an anatomical addition - the mesh is Poser's/Zygote's.

Rutt-Rohh!

Well, I must say, I could see this coming, I was just wondering WHEN??? Although I too find it kinda rude and inconsiderate we do have to remember what this is meant as, humour. If you ever watch movies or rent videos for example, you may come to realize there are actual movies termed as such, I mean, there is a movie titled "Big Fat Mama" and many many more in this series; they are CULT classics!! Would any of you have these movies banned as well?? If such was the case, why are they not banned already, since they are quite old now, but still popular as hell, (don't ask me why, I don't know)?? I am not sure if these downloads are termed after these old B movies but that is the thought I had when I first saw them. However, I must also say, that if I was an actual mature, fuller woman, I too would have to be a might "insulted", so therefore I give you folks this option.... Do you wish me to e-mail the host of these models and ask them to change the name?? And if so, to what?? And then there is the obj. thingy, I will have to look into that. ~3D

Why not just give them a female name? For illustration purposes, Kim isn't called skinny asian woman... and I think the thumbnail shows us well enough what they look like, their names don't have to. Just my thoughts on it anyhow.

Okay, here's the scoop! I agree with you's, I think it's RUDE too, and I am not alone. So we are deleting the file and sending the host an e-mail insisting that the host use obj. mover before uploading it again and as well to change the names to something more appropriate. DTHUREGRIF is working on this right now as my night is extremely LATE and I must sign off. I trust this will be to all your satisfaction ;-) ~3D P.S. Something that may be a problem, we have come to realize that this host may not be fluent english so this may take some time.

Thanks Sprite :o)

Actually, thanks Diane too ;-)

The biggest problem here is that he is distributing obj files. I've made him aware of what he needs to do to be legal and politley suggested that he might change the names of his models. Diane

Although I prefer to think of myself as well padded - and I am not in the class of those two ladies - I also objected to the name of the files. BUT - he made/distributed them that's his right to name them whatever he likes. I renamed them as Bertha(BFMW) and Wyma(BFM). Hmmmph. I have people to insult me every day - I don't need my computer to make me feel bad too. And it's good that you guys jumped on the geometry thing. As soon as replacements are around, I'll swap'm for the new files. BTW any clothes/morphs for clothes yet?

A very sensitive issue, I am sure, thanks everyone, for your insights and your understanding ;-) Now, is anyone out here starting work on that Richard Simmons character yet?? Hehehe, (a joke okay, a bad joke, owch, ooch, eeeow, stop, owchie, owch, oooch,............ help................................3D) (bad sprite, bad sprite)

Oh my goodness! What did I start? While, yes, my feelings and a few others were a little hurt by the names; I hope that the obj issue is the only reason the files were taken down. My only reason for posting that message in the first place was to vent a little steam and make my personal feelings known. Maybe it would make people consider the feelings of others more before using those terms and thinking them humorous....never that another persons creative expression should be banned because another persons feelings were hurt.

While I too find the names distasteful, I assure you they weren't taken down because of that. It was the re-distribution of uncoded OBJ files that led to them being taken down. Paul

^_^;;; That's a relief. I do hope he will repost them appropriately.

The term, "killing two birds with one stone" comes to mind here, although frankly, I am NOT into bird killing ;-) The obj. file was the meat, the names were the gravy, why not deal with one since we had to deal with the other ;-) Let's all be happy now.........3D

I'd like to add my thanks for them being taken down, I too was/am offended by the names... and to be honest,some of the poses portrayed in the thumbs. On another note, are the other generously endowed women also envous of their (the BFM etc) smooth and unblemished skin? Even with the extra padding? sighs ahhh, to have skin like that, I wouldn't mind being 'generously endowed' :) Shae

Hi Folks! Unfortunately, overweight people are one of the last social groups around who are considered fair game for all kinds of insensitivity in the name of humor. Substitute a label that denotes a slur about the ethnicity or disability of the figures, regardless of their body type, and watch the boards light up. By the way, Keoto: your insights about the peculiar racial differences implied between the "fat" and "mature" figures are right on target. Before anyone denounces this thread as PC hysteria, remember that an issue usually seems politically correct when you're not the one who was subjected to the incorrect behavior. I hope our colleague understands that our contention is not with the gift but with the label--literally. Names for the characters that do not draw so much attention to their endomorphic body type would be more appropriate in a forum such as this that cuts across so many political and social borders. Peter (Dr Zik)

3dSprite: Old movies aren't banned. But you don't see new ones being made in the same way. These models aren't old. They were made in a time when people should know better.

Sprite: Just a point or two: I don't see anything about the criticism of the titles that indicated that something needed to be done about them. Just because something is criticized, it does not mean that it should be changed. The voice that told you to bring the issue up with the author was your own. (But pasted on up this billboard- that joke Would get old Real fast.) About the obj: I admit to being a bit Swiftian there: I knew the answer to the question before I asked it. I was offering a heads up - without being an Eddie Haskle about it.

Well, I want to say thanks to Momcat for speaking out. I agree with her. And I would like to thank 3DSprite and Diane for taking the initiative to get them changed. Although, it was probably intended as humor, I think it was humor in bad taste, and I see nothing wrong in pointing this out to the creator of the characters. Its ok, I think, to let them know that we appreciate the effort in the creation of these characters, but different titles would be more appropriate.

Hey friends, there is no one, I repeat, NO ONE weirder than me, okay? And I too have one of the most sarcastic and at times wicket sense of humour one can think of, (at least so I am told), but Jaager, you are right, I will NOT dispute your findings here; I did feel that these descriptions for these FULLER characters were far too extreme on a professional forum like this. So, yes, I did act out of self indulgence of my own feelings and I admit it, and this thread by Momcat gave me the excuse to make it so even more. The obj. file was our biggest concern, and the descriptions of these characters were our BIGGEST lesson in manners. If you's all feel I acted unjustly about the name changes, I can arrange to have them changed back??? Please let me know okay? ~3D ;-)

Ok then, the self-portrait will have to wait. Seriously, let's leave it up to the authors. I've no problem with expressing an opinion about people's artwork, but I hope we would all hate to see mob rule on matters of taste and propriety. (I mean, we've come to appreciate Legume's charms haven't we? ...Ok maybe that's going too far)

Common courtesy, manners and consideration towards others' feelings is "mob rule"?? I would NOT be so assinine as to complain and have these names changed just to benefit ME!! If no one had uttered a whisper about this, nothing about the "names" would have been changed, the obj. problem needed to be addressed, yes, but they can still be BIG FAT MAMA'S. I found the names used repulsive and unecessary in a forum like this and I just happen to agree with Momcat and the rest of the folks who took the time to post their concerns here, so I felt it appropriate to have something done about the names too. Now, I WILL stress this. If these Fat Mama's were ONLY posted at Renderotica, then this whole scenario may be much different. Yes, the obj. file problem would still have to be addressed, but the names would be much more commonplace there since it is the type of place for Sardonic Humour such as this. And Nance, you may notice that it is at Renderotica that Legume keeps his contraversal renderings, not here, unless it is something "special" just for Renderosity, at which time, he too has had moments like these from members, hehehe. ~3D

I fall into the full figure category, too ~ not morbidly obese, but I would like to be 2 or 3 sizes smaller. I too found the names unsettling. On a recent episode of Friends, Courtney Cox's character Monica was shown as overweight. She obviously has never had an ounce of extra weight on her because her portrayal was deplorable. She made the character stupid and silly, using a dumb voice, and always stuffing her face with food. I eat very little, yet my metabolism is stuck where it is. Not all overweight people are over-eaters. That's a myth. I was quite offended by her behavior in that character. I think it's high time that people stopped picking on heavy folks. No one is overweight by choice. They don't wake up one morning and say, "Hey, I've never been fat before, I think I'll try it." Racial stereotypes are off limits. Let's fix this. Melanie

I agree Melanie. I'm a bit "pleasingly plump" myself and don't like the stereotype. After spending time hospitalized for several months the only people I saw caring about me were the overweight nurses and doctors. Never saw a skinny nurse the whole time. Maybe they were too busy curling weights. You don't see too many models as hospis care volunteers. I think overweight woman is just fine but big fat mama is just absurd. How about lazy, shiftless ni@@er or long nosed J@w or big, dumb honky (Wait that's the poser stock male). We could do the whole range of PC correct stereotypes, wirey, nerdy geek, pox ridden whore, WASP, drunken American indian, geez the possibilities are just endless.

I'm almost sorry I said anything to begin with except that the obj issue was brought to light. Next time I find I have an issue with an artists work I will take it up with them directly. So far we all agree that the names were insulting. I am sure that the artist meant no harm, and probabley had no idea that the names would be found hurtful. It is important to remember that we all do thoughtless things sometimes. It is just as important to remember that people respond much better to being gently informed of thier thoughtlessness and enlightened as to how thier actions effect others. I think most of the time, that's all it takes. I do disagree about Renderotica. The only difference that I can see between Renderosity and Renderotica is that Rendrotica was created specifically to host erotica, and sexually explicit artwork, and the discussion thereof.

Momcat, don't feel bad about bringing up the subject. You felt strongly about it and you have the right to speak out. Someone above commented that the names were meant in humor, as were some of the old movies. Well, you can call anything "humor" but that doesn't make it right and it doesn't justify it. There are a lot of demeaning "jokes" about women (like those silly blonde jokes), and we all laugh (I'm a blonde, btw), but still, it's not really nice to make fun of anyone because of a physical characteristic. The organization I work at has very strong diversity policies. We attend mandatory diversity training and we are encouraged to respect everyone. Diversity doesn't include only racial groups, but every other aspect of the human experience, i.e., physical disabilities, religious beliefs, body types, etc. It's important to respect everyone, regardless of how different they may be from oneself. Momcat, I think a lot of people are glad you brought it up. I don't blame the artist who created the figures. The figures themselves are fine. In fact, badly needed for the diversity of our characters. I think it was just an honest mistake and not intentionally meant to be hurtful. We can forgive. No harm done. Maybe it was a good thing in the end because it brought some awareness to all of us. Now, let's all get back to the fun of artistic creativity. Melanie

Words ne? It's amazing how much things change from one generation to the next.. me? i'm the too skinny, can eat anything,can't gain weight if he tried, ectomorphic type.. with long blond hair, red beard, glasses.... so I get hit with a lot of stereotypical comments..."hippy","nerd" etc... I just have a thick skin. and treat it as humour... bettre than crying in my saki ne? Cheers and pleasant thoughts to ye all, Wizzard

~Never ever be afraid to speak your mind about something. ~Everyone makes mistakes, that is how we, (hopefully), learn to become wiser and better people. ~Big people jokes HAVE been around forever and DO conitinue to be, if you don't beieve this, you are only fooling yourself. ~Most of the time people in general cannot please other people in general no matter what they do or how they do it. There are far too many personalities andor types of flavor to humanity, within humour, within mannerisms, whithin rules, within ALL kinds of ways of thinking. Case in point... this scenario. Diane and I worked hard and late to solve thisthese problems, since there was a GENERAL consensus that the names were inappropriate and the obj. file issue was at hand; but still, we managed to somehow get "spanked" for it in various subtle ways by some after the fact; go figure?? I try to learn from this, but sometimes, I confess, it is difficult. People in general can be VERY cruel. I can tell you stories of some less than favorable times in my own life that had nothing to do with "FAT", but "HURT" just the same, perhaps even more. Like when I went through a bad stage in my very young youth when I had a bad bout of acne and I got into a fight almost each and every day with mean cruel kids that insisted on using my face as a humerous target!! It is VERY enraging for example to have someone come up to you with a cream donut and squeeze it all over you in the cafeteria laughing about how it reminds them of your face, or be constantly reminded by all the Eddie Haskells of school how your face is the shining example of Eddie Kruger or some other creepy stars that reign supreme in horror flicks!! It's no wonder I had broken teeth in an early age, from fighting all the jerks around me. Needless to say, when I was a youth, for several years I had NO humour and I was one miserable son of a bitch and thank goodness for "time" and "healing" and "learning" and "listening" and "aging" because even ugliness can be an enlightening exerience once the "ugly" skin is shed and a new beginning is at hand. And if I go back even further in time, I will NEVER, ever forget coming to this fair and prosperous land. I was but a mere wee tyke, never knew english much, wore funny clothes, came from a land that had been taken over and been ransacked by a former enemy to this country. And even though I had NOTHING to do with any of this and neither did my parents, (they were way too young), because we were strangers who didn't speak fluent and wore different clothes and had a slightly different culture behind us, we were ridiculed, immensly, for what seemed like an eternity. Even when you do NOT understand the spoken words actions can speak the loudest, and even when you are a mere tyke, ridicule can make you "see" and "learn" rather quickly, and as time went on and I DID manage to aquire the language required to survive and began to wear the appropriate clothing to "fit in" with society, and even though I managed to better myself to the point where no one would ever again dare to ever make that racial wartime slur at me again, I took it upon myself to NOT let the same happen to others that I would come to witness going through the same scenario. Something to remember, humans in the raw are cruel and heartless by nature, and it is only the laws of the land and common sense teaching of manners that keeps them at bay. And the MORE we can all laugh at each time someone spits out pain in racial slurs and tells Elephant Man jokes, the more sane and healthy a person we are. It means we have reached that point in our life where we know we are above this and we won't let stuff like this bother us anymore. But this happens only after you have experienced all the GOOD things life and the good people have to offer; these make you forget the setbacks of the past. One sees the world in a brighter and a more "lighter" way when one has the experience of bitter dissallusion under their belt. I look back on old times and laugh today, something I never ever thought I could do back then, when all I wanted to do was destroy the folks that were teasing me. But sometimes one must endure setbacks to appreciate even better times ahead. Time heals and mentalities change and broken teeth, well they are quickly fixed by dentists. The scars of learning stay forever, and are actually a treasure at times like this when we need to compare and understand how one may feel about other situations. Now, please don't make me tell you more, hehehe ;-) ~3D

Having been born oe'erseas on a military base.. and moving much over my lifetime.... I know..tis rough always being "the new kid".. Fortunately I'm fairly decent at picking up languages.. so I dinnae have that problem... shrug... having been there my self, I'm Glad to see you've mellowed out my friend.. ) Cheers, Wizzard

Well, I'm obviously a day late and a dollar short in this conversation... While I share the general dismay at the figure's titles (the "Big Fat Momma" looks an awful lot like me, but I like the way I look, and I'd certainly slug anyone who referred to me that way) I love the figures themselves. I gather from the message thread that they are not available any more in Free Stuff... are they available anywhere? I'd be delighted to have more realistic women to use in my images (now that I have some free time to make images again) instead of just the super-skinny, male-fantasy Posettes. -Nemo

I'm not sure what happened, but my response to 3D's last message never went through...It was quite lengthy too so I really am not looking forward to having to write it all over again. Anyway, to make a long story short: 3D, seeing that this is indeed a moderated forum, I think you did the right thing and I thank you for it. I think the thing we are all afraid of though, is crossing that ever so thin, increasingly grey and very fuzzy line between wanting dignity and respect for everyone, and the dreaded "C" word. We all want to be treated with respect, but we don't want to end up in a situation like is now typical in todays workforce where one is afraid to compliment a coworker for fear of being fired for sexual harrassment. PC can go too far. Where is the line between common courtesy and extremeism? It's very difficult to see these days.

I assume that once the obj. file issue is adressed they will indeed be re-posted, I would certainly hope so anyways. We really do need more variety and more realism than just all these veloptuous hourglass figures we have become so used to with poser. You know, (and I include myself in this too), Artists never fail to amaze me. We are so hung up on realism with poser and trying so very hard not to use post rendering and such to make our stuff as true and real as possible and yet, they bring out a new figure like Victoria or the Fat Mama and everyone sees red and ugly?? When I go about my daily chores and ventures I see more Vistoria's and Mama's than any other real life hourglass posettes; but then if I woke up one day and found myself surrounded by nothing but normal hourglass posettes I would think I have died and gone to heaven for sure!!! :-0 Does this make me sexist and a pig?? Probably to a point!! Except that I recognize the flaw in me when I see it. But I am not afraid to admit my weaknesses, naaawww!!! Hehehehe ;-)

I'd like to announce that this weekend I'll be uploading my new Politically Incorrect creations to freestuff! NEW: Paco the Lazy Mexican Thief Stosh the Dumb Polish Janitor (with poseable mop!) Hymie the Cheap Jewish Businessman Josephine the Big Fat Nasty Skank Honky Lloyd the Unemployed (with wife-beating stick) Bob the Infected Queer Maggie the Crack-Addicted Welfare Mother Joey the Embarrassing Drooling Retard George W. Bush PLUS: Larry the Crippled Pornographer!

Well, to change the subject :) Sprite... "Artists never fail to amaze me. We are so hung up on realism with poser and trying so very hard not to use post rendering and such to make our stuff as true and real as possible..." What's this about realism and no post rendering. Often, I ve seen images not post rendered that look anything but real. I guess I'm not a purist. I believe poser is a tool to assist in making imagery and I do fair amount of post rendering, because the final product is what counts for me. Not that I just rendered it straight from poser. As for your other points, a greater variety of all types of body shapes is a good thing to have. And no, I don't think you're a sexist pig if you find a certain type attractive. I believe we all have ideals for what we consider attractive. And there is nothing wrong for people to have these ideals as long as they don't denigrate those who fall outside of those parameters. From the way you talk, I feel you respect the differences of others.

ROTFLMAO! Thanks; I think we needed that>^_^

Wynter, you are obviously not familiar with my tactics which is not your fault. I happen to be VERY sarcastic at times, and the realismpost-rendering thing was meant as very sarcastic. I must be one of the most die hard folks around here that believes post rendering is a GOOD thing cause I feel it adds style and makes our work stand apart from all the rest; only in post rendering can you actually give your work that "signature" to make it stand out as unique and as yours!! I apologise if I came across the wrong way here, for although I do believe there is much talent shown by using poser and bryce to create, I also believe that there may be even more talent shown when we post render, because that takes us beyond just the softwares limits and adds moisture to an otherwise dry piece of bread, hehehe ;-)

Pass the buttre Sprite.. ) Ahhhh... to be able to incluse soundbites with the messages.... Good one Legume... homour is always appreciated my this unit... ) Ahhh so.. where was I? oh yes... Cheers, Wizzard

ooops...I'll remember that. I love sarcasm, having been raised with it by my family from a young age. BTW, is there a sarcastic smiley face?

/ 0 0 ==

I, for one, hope they get reposted. Peter and Diane, I'm sure you handled this with some subtleness--and the .obj issue was certainly a problem. Interesting thread--wonder where Momodat is--he's the one so interested in 'non-perfect' models (guess he's in the process of moving to Canada). Also glad to see that there is a group of us 'non-perfect' women out there G. And Peter, I always enjoy your 'sarcasm' you know (and I'm not saying a word about Legume--he knows how I feel about him --sly S. Diane B

I think the issues been beaten up quite nicely. lets move on.

Well, for me, the names mean nothing. I mean if the characters were called bucked malici(maliceye) looking people I would not get upset as I do look like malici from the children of the corn. Stereotypes are always a funny thing and yes I grew up getting my share of mean treatment but I have since realized the stupidity in getting upset over it. Now if those files were called big fat niggas' then I would be irritated simply because it would mean we have a bigotted KKK freak in our midst. I am white. Hey you know there is a website that offers WWII poser figures and for about the last year or two all they have had available are the NAZI and SS figures. They claim that they are not pro NAZI but given the time involved, I'd say that they actually are. I think it actually started as an indiana jones download and then changed to WWII.

No offense, but Mason is correct, time for this one to die.

BANG Urgh...... >Wizzard