When you post your images in the gallery and enable comments and/or rankings, do you expect people to view your work with a honest and critical eye, or do you want the "oooh & ahhh" generic comments? Maybe I am just odd, but when I post something in my gallery I actually expect critical opinions and advice on how to improve my skills. I get so frustrated when I go through the galleries and see all the generic "wow, perfect render" comments with "excellent" ratings when the image is nowhere near perfect and pretty far from excellent. Is it fair to the artist/creator of these images to just give them those comments when there are obvious things in the image that could be easily fixed with a technique? If we don't give our honest opinions, how can the artist/creator learn and improve? If they didn't want honest feedback, why enable the comment section at all? Okay, okay, having the ego stroked is nice. =P Please don't think I am ungrateful for any of the comments I have received on my one gallery image, I am not. I appreciate everyone who left a comment and viewed the image. It's just that, I know the image needs loads of work, I can see flaws in it myself, but I've yet to see anyone offer ways to improve upon the image. I certainly don't think it warrants an "excellent" rating by any means! Perhaps I am just odd... shrugs

No, I know what you mean. I often browse the gallery and see only those type of remarks, or mediocre work with Excelent ratings that have me wondering what excactly it is that's so excelent about it. It's one of the reason that I only allow for comments on my pics, rather then a rating as the rating system here is seriously disfunctional. I'd loved to get some decent feedback on pictures aswell, instead of just oooohs & aaaaaaahs (not that I'm getting those anyhow :) ) shrugs Maybe we're both odd?

Hi Axe! I see you are a gamer, me too! I'm fixin' to jump back into NWN with their two new expansion packs. =D Ever visit GameFAQs? Anyhoo, back on topic...it's nice to know I'm not the only odd one around here. =P I zipped through your gallery, your work is good. I have a few comments I'll pass along to you via IM after I go back and take a good look at all of your work. =)

I have lowered my expectations regarding comments and rankings. Instead, I try to build relationships with others on this site whose work I respect. In doing so, I find that they will either provide useful comments, or else they will instant message me with useful comments. Yes, there is tons of uninteresting (to my eye) work in the galleries, and yes, it does still gbug me to see the dopey-gushy comments that are made in response to uninteresting work. But it's a big world and chacun a son gout. It's not in my best interest to dwell on the fact that the overall response to my own postings is lukewarm (judging by the number of hits my images receive). I only make comments on the work of others when I think the work merits my attention. I have a good eye, and I think I can offer something useful to people who are interested in hearing it. Well thought-out critique is a gift you give and I no longer "cast my pearls before swine."

Here is what I do: - when I see a picture that I like, I comment positively on it. But I try not to do it with just an "excellent". I try to explain WHY I like that image and for what. This way I think I also help the author to focus on his/her strong points; If at the same time I see a flaw or something that can be bettered, here's what I do: - if the author explicitely asked for critical comments, then I post also my critical point; - if the author did NOT ask for critical comments, I usually publish only the positive comment, then, I "IM" the author privately with my critical observations. This way I think I help him without expoising him to a public critic. This I think is especially good for those people who are shy and maybe have taken months to find the "guts" to publish a picture... I think hurting the sensibility of a person is worse than not commenting on his errors... so I send a private message to both let him know my critic, and not do it in public. Also this can be good for the person's self esteem: to see that someone else care enough to send a private message, can mean that this person will feel he has done something worth anyway, and will be more inclined to listen to the critique and learn. All the above is referred to pictures where I see both good and bad things. If a picture only has bad things, I do not comment at all. It would be just destructive. I prefer to wait for that person to release a new and better picture, to be able to mix some encouragement with the critic. We must remember something: it's true that some people posts to get critical feedback. But it's also true that some people post just to show their work online to friends. There are many uses and many intentions in the galleries: people who want to pursue an artistic career, people that just do it for fun, people that maybe are shy in communicating with others and have found a way to do that with posting pictures. For this last category of persons, a harsh critique can really be hurting and do bad to their souls. We have to respect them all and treat them all with care, taking into consideration all the above aspects. Orio

Good point, if your weird I'm weird too (okay actually I've been accused lol) but seriously, I am still learning poser. Actually I have had the odd comment on ways to improve a picture and I really did appreciate them. :) I try to be honest when I comment, maybe sometimes I miss something that could be fixed on a picture here or there, but I don't always see what the eye of a person who is well used to poser may see. If I give a picture a ranking, it is because I truly believe it is warranted and I won't neccesarily just click exellent. Basically I "try" to help if I can and give comments I feel are honestly my opinion. That is what I appreciate also.

Pookah, Orio, and Foxseelady, thank you for posting your opinions and comments. =) Pookah, well if I ever get a comment from you, I shall treasure it. =) I am one who hardly ever goes to others for help, but will gladly and gratefully accept advice and instruction on how to do something better. However, the image that I am working on right now, I did seek out the advice of an artist here at R'osity and I am so glad I did! He helped a TON!! Now if I could ever get the hair done the way I want it, I shall post her in my gallery. Heh... Orio, I agree with most of what you said. I have privately IM'd my suggestions to people before. I did that for two reasons... 1) Because nobody else had said anything about the "flaw" that I saw. 2) Because I didn't want someone to come along and go "Who does she think she is?" because I posted something not 100% positive. I dunno...mainly I am just talking about the "gushy" comments that are repeated over and over again. Sometimes I wonder if the people making the comments even look at the images they are commenting on. O_o Foxseelady, I've been accused of a LOT worse! LOL I remember your October Poser challenge image...he was very nice to stare at. =P

I usually don't rate pictures, because of the points already raised - many people seem to think that they HAVE to give an excellent and so the rating loses meaning. Of course I enjoy getting positive comments but I would rather have a comment of "Hmm, the lighting needs work" or "You got some pokethrough on her arm" than "O WOW I LUV IT" to be honest. I've found I've actually got better and more honest critique here in the forum than I have in the galleries. But I don't like to spam the forum so I only post when something is really bugging me, or I know something is wrong with the pic, but not what. I don't leave as many comments as I would like, mainly because I don't have enough time to surf the galleries. But also because some people can be very sensitive and it sometimes makes me afraid to leave constructive criticism except when someone has specifically asked for it. I try to leave positive comments which mean something, e.g. "I love your use of lighting/colours/atmosphere..." This positive criticism can also help the artist improve - it's just as important to know what you've done right as what you've done wrong.

well anyone who wishes to leave constructive criticism on my pieces is welcome to. Doesn't bother me either which way ..6 years of art school, and 8 years in ad agencies in Manhattan kinda beats it outta ya.

Personally I would love constructive criticism, or even negative criticism for that matter. Not being an artist every little bit would help. On the other hand, when I comment I have found it's like 'walking on egg shells' around here. Not knowing folk on a long term, personal basis what I think may be 'constructive criticism' may very well stike a wrong cord with an individual and suddenly you've got half the forum flaming you....and then again, I'm not an artist nor a critic so what is my opinion worth?? Heck, I've even been flamed by folk I've never conversed with or commented to....therefor I claim the right to follow dear old mom's advise: "If you don't have anything good to say to your brother then keep your damn mouth SHUT!"

I almost posted this exact thread yesterday and then decided not to.

I wondered if you posted a version in a thread asking for a critique if you would get more response than you do posting as a gallery image.

Being new to poser I know my work needs...well work. I do appreciate the comments my gallery images have received, but I know there are things that I need work on and I'm not always exactly sure how to go about doing them.

I have thick skin and know I'm not an artist so constructive criticism would be helpful for me.

Perhaps as someone in this thread said I should put that in the notes when I post a gallery image.

Towal

If I like an image, and I wish to let the artist know this, I will not hesitate to leave a comment -- without feeling the necessity for writing a chapter or two on how the shadows don't look quite right.......

I enjoy many gallery images on an emotional plane. In such cases, I see no need for technical vivisection.

If, for example, I see a landscape that appeals to me -- I might comment by saying "excellent" or "beautiful", and no more. Someone else, on the other hand, might not agree with my assessment of the image. In that case, they are welcome to leave a lengthy critque, if they so desire.

Art, by its very nature, is subjective. You and I might look at the same image, and then our opinions will follow opposite paths.

Likewise, our gallery comments are subjective. I like what I like. And I will not stop telling the artist this. Saying "excellent" might seem shallow to some. But it's a small way of expressing appreciation to me: it's a way of saying "thank you" for sharing your art.

I'll usually leave the technical criticisim to others.

It's my choice.

well it is true it souns sometime a bit too polite to be true :( but i had a handful of comment that pointed me at some shortcomings i could learn to improve so. for me the only use i make of comment is when i have a comment, i visit the gallery (if any) of the person who left me a comment, and watch his work (or her work) and usually i find out that most of them have something in their art that appeal me and that i would like to be able to achieve as good as them, so i begin to talk with them starting from that...

Nope, I want ooo and ahh and screw the criticism. My ego needs placating or I wouldn't be posting a damn pic!

To quote the new Governor of California: I don't do requests.

Whether that request is for praise, or for refined slashing.

If I am in the gallery, and I like an image, I might say something......I think that most people operate this way.

Shallow?

Too bad.

Most artists should be happy with any comments at all. Which, I suspect, is the REAL problem here.

Comments or lack there of is not the "real" problem with me. I would not be offended if no one commented on my work. Frankly, I am shocked at the number of views/comments I get. When I get a comment I appreciate it.

That doesn't mean that I think all my work is the end all be all and can't use improvement (I do realize there are people that feel that way, however). I don't post my images to get a bunch of ego stroking comments (though I do appreciate all comments I receive). I post images I happen to be particularly happy with the result. However, if I just want my ego stroked I will send my images to my friends who know enough to say "wow that is the best thing you have ever done" even if they think it's a piece of crap ;)

If someone that has more experience and a different eye sees something that, in their opinion, I could have done differently/better then I would like to hear that as well.

Towal

I find I go to the galleries to relax and if I see images I really like I will comment. If I see images that are really bad I tend not to comment for fear of sounding too harsh. If I feel I can add something constructive to an image I will explain what I see, but in many instances I feel I do not have the appropriate knowledge in Poser to adequately explain what I mean. Catlin

Wow...lots of interesting perspectives here. An explanation (doesn't need to be more than a few words) of why the viewer thinks something is "excellent" is equally as helpful as why the viewer thinks the image needs work. If all you want to do is make the viewer feel good, you can simply instant message them and say "nice job." . I think comments should be more than "excellent" or more than "this sucks." Not a lot more, but a little more. It shows care on the part of the viewer to take the extra effort.

I always enable comments... I appreciate all of them...They are just opinions... We all have them... I try to balance my comments...a little praise with a little critism.. I tend to be a liitle kinder to new folks...to encourage them.. My friends and associates get the harshest comments, cause I know they can handle it.. :-) I suppose the one thing that DOES bug me, is when someone confuses opinion with fact... Comments like, "this is too dark", well, may to you it is..maybe the artistwanted it to be dark.. "IMHO" goes a long ways...

I usually try to be honest when I post a comment. If i see something that I truely love I let the person know, but if i see something that is trashy and tasteless I let them know as well. ---Essie

I have read with interest the comments subsequent to mine. I think that an apparently much shared assumption is that all people posting pictures consider themselves artists or wannabe artists that take their work seriously and are committed to get better in it with their best forces. I think (mine is an opinion, but I don't think I'm much far from truth) that this picture does not represent the reality of the gallery as they are today. I think that the galleries today are for the major part filled by people who wants to simply have fun with CG. This includes the teenager wanting to get popular by posting nude pictures of big-boobed vickies, the middle aged gentle lady posting pictures of her cats, and so on. It includes also a lot of those "shy" amateurs that do the most different things in life (bank employees, students, retired people) and dare to post once in a while when they think they have finally something good. To treat all those people with the same straight analytical critical attitude we consider appropriate for a "real" artist (or wannabe artist) is not really doing those people any good or giving them any help I think (with the exception of the teenagers who may get this as a healthy life lesson). I think it can only hurt them unnecessarily. I have seen this happen unfortunately. That is why I always adopt those "caution measures" I described in my earlier post. I don't know... I just don't feel that the equation "you posted here=so I can comment on your picture as I like" is necessarily always true. It is surely a member's right to do so. But is it always the most appropriate action, humanly speaking?

I just don't feel that the equation "you posted here=so I can comment on your picture as I like" is necessarily always true. It is surely a member's right to do so. But is it always the most appropriate action, humanly speaking?

No, it is not.

This community eats its own far too often.

And cannibalism is a bad thing, right? I wonder how many potential contributors have been run off -- simply due to plain rudeness.

'- if the author explicitely asked for critical comments, then I post also my critical point'

I agree with Orio. The only time you should post critical comments is if the artist specifically requests it. Otherwise, an encouraging note is all that's needed. Either that or just move on to another. I think we're all aware of the deficiencies of our renders - someone pointing them out is just redundant :)

Also, I think that in many cases comments are mostly just a checking in by friends to say "Yup - I noticed your post today" :)

I don;t comment on pictures very often. If I really like a piccy then I say so - and there can be lots of reasons for likeing something. Some pictures are technically excellent (perspective, composition, lighting etc) but kind of soulness in their content. Others are not so 'professionally' rendered but represent excellent original ideas - those are the ones I like!

Interesting topic. Perhaps it would be in Renderosity's interests to include a selection menu when uploading images that will dictate to others if the artist is open to critiques or not on that particular image, since probably most people who upload would either forget or neglect to mention that in their descriptive text, unless reminded.

Myself, I want honesty with some orange juice and 7Up to wash it down. Did you parents ever do that for you when you were sick and had to take some nasty medicine? Give you something yummy as well to help take the nasty taste out while still giving you the medicine's benefit. If there's something wrong, then I want to know about it. But I want to know what's good, too. If someone can't say ANYTHING nice, then they're in too bad of a mood to give a good critique or my work is too far gone anyway, and they might as well move on silently. On the other hand, if they can tell me both good and bad points, I want to know both.

ah, depends..;) I notice silly things, like historical anachronisms, creative spelling (well, they're artists aren't they?..;) ironies, technical details. I'll drop a hint or two here, maybe ideas on scaling, perspective, just obvious stuff. I tend to tease folks a bit, from time to time (who, me?), but it's all in fun. On occasion, where I've been wrong, or percieved that way, I've removed comments as well.
I get the occasional comment, and I can take negative criticism (you can say I suck, but only if you tell me why..;). I have my little 'amen corner', of folks who check my stuff out (a small, but welcome club..;), and aside from 't' (who shall remain nameless, but whose comments either brilliantly celebrate obfuscation, or whose command of the English language should be relieved for insubordination..;), I learn a lot.

What I find curious is the way you'll see two pictures side by side, one has 300 views and 2 comments, the other has 250 views, 20 comments and 15 ratings.

I think if you want constructive criticism, you should ask for it specifically when you post your picture. Praise is obviously the default here. One reason is that it's easier to give a positive comment than a negative one. Most artists would accept "that's great" without further explanation, but would require more explanation of a "I don't like that." So I think you're just less likely to see negative comments, because useful negative comments require more effort. Add to that the fact that some/many artists don't want constructive criticism. A viewer is certainly not going to take the time to post constructive criticism, unless the viewer is sure that the artist cares to hear. When newbies join Renderosity and view the galleries for the first time, they will see the mostly positive comments. Through observation, newbies will assume that it is the standard practice to praise to the exclusion of constructive criticism, and will follow suit. And then finally, there must be some contribution from the trend in (at least American) education that has taken a good idea, which is fostering strong self-esteem, and turned it into a bad practice, which is rejection of self-improvement. But I don't think at all that there is anything wrong with the pattern of positive commentary in the galleries. I just think the posting artist just needs to be aware of it and specifically request constructive criticism when that's what the artist wants. The responses to this thread show that there are still a lot of people willing to offer that constructive criticism.

Zander brings up a point that I thought of after I posted yesterday.

On another graphics board I belong to (for PhotoImpact) they made a little "critique ok" icon that you can place in posts. That way people know if you want constructive critisim or you just want oohs and ahhs.

On the next image I put in my gallery (I have a whopping 3 so I'm not a fount of creation obviously) I am going to specifically state that constructive critisim is welcome and see if that makes any difference.

If I suck I want to know, however I want to know why you think that as well. If I get "U sux" I'm going to ignore that. If I get "u sux because your shadows and lighting look like it's daylight, but the scene is clearly set at night" I'm going to be greatful for the hint that my shadows and lighting could use some tweaking.

Towal

I would love some criticism...it is the only way imho that one can improve on what they are doing...hints and suggestions are always welcome from someone who sees something not quite right and tells you what it is and how to fix it up...not a great comparison however will use it anyway...like chess...you always play someone better than yourself so one day you can surpass even them. JP

'What I find curious is the way you'll see two pictures side by side, one has 300 views and 2 comments, the other has 250 views, 20 comments and 15 ratings.' If a render features any kind of nudity no matter how artless or downright tacky it will get a lot of viewings but very few (if any) comments. It's been this way ever since I've been posting to the galleries anyway :)

All of my gallery comments are honest. I like a variety of artists for a variety of reasons. The three artists I comment on the most all have one quality in common - they're damn good at what they do. pookah69's images are first rate because they defy the usual Poser conventions and give you a hard edged comic book look at life. karen1573's work is often very emotional, and has a raw honesty. Of her other pieces, I like them because she is very imaginative. ilona's images always have something different about them. She's an absolute perfectionist. There are times when all I can say about a pic is Wow! Great image. And if it's by someone I like, I will say it. As for myself, I generally get very few views of my gallery and even fewer comments. C'est la vie.

Attached Link: Most awesome Bryce/Poser Pic

I'm not a professionally trained artist. I'm only starting to produce Poser art that I'm reasonably satisfied with. I really don't see that I'm in any position to criticize anybody's Poser art. There's art I like and art I don't like. I can usually tell from a thumbnail whether an image is worth viewing. If the thumbnail doesn't grab me, I don't look any further. Whenever I see an image that doesn't impress me, I don't see a need to critique it. It might be the best that the artist is currently capable of doing. Why dash this person's efforts? Part of the problem with critiquing any artwork is that we all have a different vision of what is good. There are some tried and true theories of composition and layout that can be the basis of providing comments. Even applying those theories overly much can be stifling. Try being a judge at an art contest that provides those rules as the yardstick for judging art instead of simply relying on what is emotionally satisfying. The best artwork isn't the most compelling piece, but the one that most followed the hidden rules. I'd rather just post praise. If the work isn't good enough to rate excellent, I won't post a rating. Over the course of time, an artist can look at their gallery and see what got the most comments and ratings and use that as a yardstick for what is working and what isn't. I've looked at the top lists in the gallery and have been somewhat amazed by what is rated highly. The most highly viewed image is not the most impressive piece of Poser work I've ever seen. I cannot figure out why it has almost twice as many views as the next most viewed image. There's one artist who has a large number of images in the Most Commented section and half as many comments as the most commented image with only 3% as many viewings. I'd rate about a third of the most viewed and most commented images as not being particularly good art. The Best Ranked listings are a little better. I don't know if some of this art is on the top listings due to fraudulent practices or if they're part of cliques that are more actively promoting one of their own. It's always possible that a lot of other people think some of the art is much better than I do. I need to take the time to look at more galleries and provide good ratings and comments for work that isn't getting the kind of notice that it should. That's the only way to raise the overall class of what is out there. PS: The link I posted is the most ambitious Poser/Bryce image I've ever seen. I don't know if I could say it's the best piece of artwork I've ever seen, but it is truly the most incredible thing I've seen here; with a literal cast of thousands.

I'm one of them that once I complete something and I'm satisfied I can't do better with the basic theme, quite frankly, I hate it, won't look at it or if music, won't play it again. I've had people ask me to print a copy of an image, but usually by then it's no longer in my computer. Guess comments or critique wouldn't make much difference, I'm my own worst critic. Which is why I don't say anything about someone else's work.

Wow! I never thought I'd see this many replies to my question. Thank you, everyone for your comments and opinions. =) Something I want to address, I am not ungrateful for the comments I have received. I appreciate every person who took the time to look at the image I made. I appreciate every ranking, every comment. I appreciate it more than anyone here could ever know. =) In answer to XENOPHONZ's comment "Most artists should be happy with any comments at all. Which, I suspect, is the REAL problem here." That isn't the REAL problem for me. Comments, or lack there of, are appreciated, but not expected. Nobody could critique my work more harshly than I do. Well, okay, my grandma can... =P There are only three people in this world that I truly care about their opinions...my husband, my best friend, and myself. However, I have seen some exceptional work posted in these galleries and if one of the artists that I respect gives me advice, you can be damn sure I am going to pay attention to what they have to say. Pookah and Zandar, thank you so much for your feedback. Look for an updated version of 'Stasia' soon. =)