This just in from SKondris at the Daz "Members Only" Forum: Posted: 18 Dec 2003 03:26 Post subject: DAZ|Studio Alpha Status ------------------------------------------------------------ ______ We are still hard at work on DAZ|Studio. We're nearing completion on the last few bugs that we felt needed to be squashed, and we're also finishing up a cool default scene (with free content) for you to use to help test it out. The default scene is being tested to make sure that it can take a beating and keep on rendering. We'll also want everyone to use their own saved pz3 scenes from Poser (or any new ones you wish to come up with) and hammer them in Studio as well. The default scene will serve as your way of testing content that we know works with Studio, while your own scenes will allow you to test out Studio's compatibility with Poser 4 content. We've puts months of work into making D|S read in as much P4 content as possible. The sad truth is that since there's so many hacks and file variations out there for Poser 4, some simply will not ever be supported in D|S. The majority of the P4 content available currently should work, but we do know that certain file variations will not. I do not have that list of compatible/incompatible P4 content yet. And honestly, that list won't be concrete until after the Alpha testing is over. As reports are submitted about certain products not working, we'll test them and try to get as many to work as possible. In the end, however, in order to not handicap our application, we are making certain compromises. Our goal is to make DAZ|Studio the best 3d application around for Poser users while also making sure that it does not become hindered in any way. The modularity of the core application and the ability for 3rd party developers to create new modules for it are very important aspects of the software for DAZ. We feel confident that over time D|S will expand the horizon for DAZ and 3rd party development more than anything else has to date. While I do not have the final release date to share with you tonight, there will be a newsletter sent out to all Platinum Club members early next week outlining the rest of the details of which features will be included for the initial alpha as well as which features will be enabled in subsequent alpha releases. We appreciate your patience with us during this time. There's so much that goes on in software development, and we feel that DAZ has learned a lot over the past two years as we've been developing this program. It's important to understand that while our modelers and artists have been continuing development of M3, the Freak, and Stephanie 3.0; the development of D|S was never sacrificed. Our software engineers are a separate department that are dedicated to the furthering of D|S and it's plugins, and our regular production team, while being involved, have their own set of projects as well. The Platinum Club and Brokered Artists likewise have their own team of DAZ employees that insure the continuing improvement of product releases and benefits. There really is a lot going on at DAZ, and this will only become more and more evident over time. In fact, during the next few months, there will be some very exciting news shared with the community as DAZ will announce several other completed projects that are about to hit the public in several places around the world. But, rest assured that getting the alpha release of D|S out to our Platinum Club Members is of upmost importance to us right now. Thank you, and please stay tuned for just a little while longer. Steve Kondris DAZ Productions, Inc.

This seems to talk a lot about P4. Is it a gentle hint that Studio will only support Poser products up to P4 (ie not P5 or anything that follows)? In other words, is it going to mark the definitive fork in Poser/Daz compatability?

And if it doesn't support the P5 extensions to the file format will it at least gracefully ignore them or will P5 created PZ3s just not work at all? Oh well, not long till we can find out. No point speculating yet (which is why I just did!). -- Mark

It has been reported that Daz does not even own P5.

No P5? Say what you want about P5, but I consider the fact that many content creators still stick to Poser 4 is IMHO stubborn. Poser 4 is a 1999 product, and we're close to 2004 now. Why restrict yourself and your customers to 5 year old technology? Just imagine what cool things could be if DAZ et al were using features such as displacements, raytracing or the cloth room in their products.

They are developing their own file format so they will be able to support advanced features in the future (not necessarily P5 features). There's no reason they can't develop their own cloth simulation module on license one. -Mark

Sure they can, but what would be the benefit? We have a working cloth simulation in Poser 5 for over a year now, why reinvent the wheel?

I believe DAZ cannot claim to support P5 because they never bought it...something to do with P5's EULA that everyone was so upset about. However, since P5 scenes are compatible with P4 (with certain exceptions), I'd imagine they'd open okay in DS. It is important to remember that the core of P5 is P4/ProPak. I--and many others--believe CL simply tacked on some not-so-new technology licensed from 3rd parties and called it Poser 5. If this is the case, DAZ may be able to license these technologies (dynamic hair, cloth, etc.) from their parent companies and make it all compatible. Of course, DAZ may not want to do this since, IMO, P5's add-ons can be a major pain. They may have a better way some time in the future.

Sure they can, but what would be the benefit? We have a >working cloth simulation in Poser 5 for over a year now, >why reinvent the wheel? Maybe it will be an improvement. Syflex is certainly more powerful than stitch. I also hear good things about Maya cloth. If someone can make a better wheel then I have no problem with it. Look at all the modeling applications on the market. They all basically do the same thing, but different ones work better for different people. Nothing wrong with having a choice. -Mark

"Just imagine what cool things could be if DAZ et al were using features such as displacements, raytracing or the cloth room in their products. " --------------------------------------------------------------- Just imagine what cool things could have been done if curious labs had update their poser plugins to export POSER SCENES to Cinema Lightwave and MAX :-) But we do have riess studio filling the gap i hope :-) "Sure they can, but what would be the benefit? We have a working cloth simulation in Poser 5 for over a year now, why reinvent the wheel? " ------------------------------------------------------------------ BECAUSE that 'WHEEL" will be running along in an Open GL hardware accelerated environment that allows high end intel and MAC G5 users to make full use of the hardware they $$paid $$so dearly for UNlike poser 4/5 which is outdated 1999 technology. that IGNORES MODERN DAY HARDWARE.

And I'm willing to bet that there are still tons of Poser 4 users... Like me. No Poser 5 here!

I absolutly refuse to get Poser5. It wa s flakey bunch "stuff I don't need" crowbared into Poser4 Pro Pack, with no work flow or hardware upgrades. Poser 4 support from DAZ is fine with me. With weight mapping, and proper use of bones, you should be able to pull off conforming clothes with more details and options than dynamic cloth can ever dream of. I have never seen strand based hair that looked better than Transmapped IN POSER. All the strand hair I've seen looks like a wet Barbie doll. If I want strand hair, I'll use a real 3D package than knows how to render it right and treat it like hair. "Why reinvent the wheel?" Because the last wheel was Square.

And I'm willing to bet that there are still tons of Poser 4 users... So what? There are tons of Poser 3 users, so we shouldn't use transmaps either? Oh, and not everyone has Vicky, so we better make Posette content only.

And I am willing to bet there are still tons of Windows 95 users. PS. Will I be able to run DazStudio from Dos? On my ZX spectrum computer?

Attached Link: http://www.daz3d.com/support/index.php?id=65

So what? There are tons of Poser 3 users, so we > shouldn't use transmaps either? Oh, and not everyone > has Vicky, so we better make Posette content only. Uhm... if you don't own Vicky, you may have missed something: Vicky and I think also Mike, were sold for just 8 Pound or so on the Cover-CD of the ComputerArts Magazine. So, if there is still anybody without those two models - hard luck. There are still a lot of back-issues available and the model is really worth it's price. On the other hand, it is called "DAZ"-Studio. Ever noted the "DAZ" in the name? It means, that it is not a CuriousLab-Product, but a DAZ-Product. So if DAZ supports Poser, this is a) a pretty nice move b)an intelligent business-decision, since it increases the customer-base. But most users here still seem to use Poser 4 - I guess many not even having bought the ProPack. I never bought Poser 5 since I never really trusted CuriousLabs to really update the product. When I heard that the memory-system got no update and there was still no hardware 3D-support, Poser 5 was no longer anywhere near attractive. And I do guess that most Poser-users see it that way. I know of cases, where people switched back to using P4. So why would DAZ support a programm which is not widely in use, riddled with bugs, has a memory-leak you could drive a car through, when there is a somewhat dated application, that is widely in use and there is a certain backward-compatibility. What would be more interesting for me, is if DAZ Studio supports such things as ERC, EasyPose and all those other little tricks you can do with Poser.

"So what? There are tons of Poser 3 users, so we shouldn't use transmaps either? Oh, and not everyone has Vicky, so we better make Posette content only." Its obvious the DAZ does NOT intend to release a simple alternative "render room" for poser5 scenes nor should they :-) the cloth and face room are third party technologies leased and duct taped onto the P4 propacK so DAZ has NO obligation to support their translation into D/S

And frankly said: I wouldn't want DAZ to do so. I have seen P5-users go mad over all the bugs that came with the cloth-room and the hair. And the few pictures I have seen using the P5 hair, none came even close to the usual transmapped hair. If DAZ has something comparable, than hopefully some plug-in or something of their own design. As far as I have understood the architecture of DAZ-Studio, you can add plug-ins to the programm. Wouldn't it be nice if you could choose between different hair- or cloth-plugins?

When you see how much trouble Daz seems to be having getting a buggy alpha of Daz Studio out the door, we all should begin to appreciate the fact that P5 got out the door at all. The fact is that successfully launching a usable 3D program with the level of sophistication that everybody here seems to feel is their god-given right (for only a few hundred dollars) is a very difficult task. For a small company like Daz with limited financial resources it has to be monumental. It's funny how, right now, Daz Studio can be all things to all people because it doesn't exist. My guess it that once Daz Studio arrives, it's limitations are going to be so overwhelming that a lot of this enthusiasm is going to (at last) be tempered with some harsh reality. And if e-frontiers gets it act together and fixes up Poser, then the winner of this horse race still has yet to be decided. -jjsemp

Rather than jump on the bandwagon and say what we THINK may be around the corner, maybe we should wait and see what DAZ actually is planning to GIVE us (note word..GIVE..FREE) to play with. I, for one, am just a very humble and clumsy tinkerer ..srill using P4 on an old Win 98 system. Like many other Poser users, I make no claims to any great ability . I look forward eagerly to seeing what can be done with DAZ Studio :)

As this will be a first product, there is no bug-history from previous versions, meaning that they want to "compete" with apps that exist already five versions etc. That is why much attention has to be payed to get as many bugs out as possible. They won't get much credit, I suppose, when I read all this. Being not a Platinum club member (I got Vicky3, upgraded from 2 upgraded from 1), I won't be able to test it out. Unfortunately. I thought it would be made available to everyone interested...

The plan is for a public beta test, to which everyone is invited, after the PC members have done their best to wreck the late-alpha.

Thanks for reassuring me...grin... Can't wait... Daz' will need huge bandwidth I suppose... The ideal (to me) would be a full integration in Cinema4D, like XFrog...(hint, hint...)

Thanks for reassuring me...grin... Can't wait... Daz' will need huge bandwidth I suppose... The ideal (to me) would be a full integration in Cinema4D, like XFrog...(hint, hint...)

I think you make a strong argument jjsemp. If e-frontiers decides to make a go of Poser they have the enginners and the know-how to make Poser 6 the product of the year! What is working in e-frontiers advantage is the delay in getting DazStudio out the door. We all remember the VHS/Beta tape struggle in which VHS finally won Beta as the standard even though Beta was a superior format. All because of good marketing and blasting the market with your product. The burden of the switch is coming from the Daz side as everyone already owns Poser. Sure the last release was poor but the previous release is with little scorn. In comes e-frontiers with their engineers and their fine rendering engine and you have an absolute great product with superior rendering, openGL, modern lighting and plug-ins, ie. particle simulation etc. Yeah, while the writing was on the wall for the demise of Curious Labs there seems to be a change of tide now. Perhaps the boys are back in town. Lets see who will be on top after all...

"In comes e-frontiers with their engineers and their fine rendering engine and you have an absolute great product with superior rendering, openGL, modern lighting and plug-ins, ie. particle simulation etc." The DAZ Base will have superior rendering, openGL, modern lighting and be free. Will E-frontier be offering these features in some future version of poser FREE of charge??

I don't see how Daz would be able to continue R&D without charging for their product (Studio). I also haven't seen anywhere where Daz states they are going to give away Daz Studio for FREE! They plan on charging just like anyone else in the computer applications business does. At a bare minimum you have to recoup the costs of producing the product which includes R&D and employee saliries.

"I also haven't seen anywhere where Daz states they are going to give away Daz Studio for FREE!" Uhhhhh....the base will free :-/ from the DAZ website: "The Base (free indefinitely) It is crucial that DAZ|Studio be built upon a completely solid foundation before focusing on additional functionality and features. DAZ|Studio is modular in nature, therefore advanced functionality will be offered as modules that allow the end-user to customize the software according to his or her own need and budget." and in that FREE base application poser users get: Support for Windows 98SE/2000/Me/XP and MAC OSX 10.2 and above * Multiple select and edit of bones or objects in scene via controls in the Parameters tab (i.e. visibility, light color/intensity, position, morphs, 'following') * Cameras, props, scenes, and figures can be posed and manipulated using controls in the Parameter tab as well as 3D manipulators * Material editing will allow user to alter properties of existing materials * Editable material properties include: diffuse color/strength (mappable), specular color/strength (mappable), ambient color/strength (mappable), opacity strength (mappable), bump strength (mappable), and displacement strength (mappable), reflection color/strength (mappable), refraction color/strength (mappable), lighting model (BRDF) * Open-GL support in 3D views including: real-time texture and transparency maps * Import of .OBJ and .PZ3 (including all PZ3 subsets) file formats. * 3Delight renderer by DNASoft included (Renderman compliant) * 3D view display will be optimized for speed and quality * Save function enabled * DAZ|Studio specific file format * Selection of multiple objects through 3D view * Multiple 3D Views with intuitive camera controls * Additional Open-GL support in 3D views for anti-aliasing and depth of field * Interface panes that are dockable, resizable, and movable * Multiple levels of undo/redo * Advanced asset manager for handling large asset quantity and content directories to add such modern day functionality ,like hardware acceleration, to poser will require a TOTAL rewrite of the Core program. Dont hold your breath :-)

to add such modern day functionality ,like hardware acceleration, to poser will require a TOTALrewrite of the Core program. Repeating that won't make it true.

Ok im not a programmer so can you name any 3D program that was NOT hardware accelerated or had NO openGL but effectively added that ability later?? in a worthwhile implementation and please share why you think CL Never did this and I mean in the real world not in some theoretical framework :-)

"...to add such modern day functionality ,like hardware acceleration, to poser will require a TOTAL rewrite of the Core program." So? Why do you assume that e-frontiers won't rewrite the Poser program from the core up? My very point is that from this moment on, ANYTHING can happen. It's a new playing field, and this e-frontiers development might just put Poser back on the map. E-frontiers seems, at first glance, to have the know-how, the interest and the resources to fix the program. Also, since I'm an animator, Daz Studio's free base application is a meaningless toy to me because it doesn't support animation. And when animation gets implimented, Daz has already stated that they will charge for the add-on. So it isn't really free, is it? And we still can't overlook the fact that when Daz Studio does arrive (hopefully soon) it will probably be no less buggy than Poser 5, so both programs are starting dead even as far as I'm concerned. Sorry, Daz Studio no longer has the edge. It's a horse race. -jjsemp

"Ok im not a programmer so can you name any 3D program that was NOT hardware accelerated or had NO openGL but effectively added that ability later??" Caligari's "Truespace" started simply as "Caligari" for the Amiga. It was ported to the PC and hardware acceleration was added in one of its early incarnations. Most people don't realize that 3D Studio Max really began as "Cyber Studio" for the old Atari ST. It was also ported to the PC, with Open-GL acceleration added later. Hash Animation also began as an Amiga program, with all the bells and whistles added later for the PC, including Open GL support. And finally, Lightwave also started on the Amiga, bundled with the Newtek Video Toaster. Open GL was added when...you guessed it...the program was ported to the PC. There was no such thing as Open GL on the Amiga, because, with the Amiga's proprietary ability to handle graphics and animation really well, it didn't need it. All that support was added later when these programs migrated to the less sophisticated PC platform. I'm not a programmer either, but based on the evidence, I don't think adding Open GL or hardware acceleration is impossible. Who knows? We might get it in Poser 6. -jjsemp

"Also, since I'm an animator, Daz Studio's free base application is a meaningless to to me because it doesn't support animation. And when animation gets implimented, Daz has already stated that they will charge for the add-on. So it isn't really free, is it?" As a C4DXL8.2 and Lightwave7.5 owner I dont see any use for the free base either as i only animate charcters. I just hope DAZ is smart enough to implement FBX as the export standard to LW MAX etc. thats the only logical approach to attracting new user outside the poser base. since the poser base is comprisedmostly still render makers who will not buy the animation addons.

I still have never seen anywhere where Daz states they are going to release Studio for FREE. What I have read is the following:

"Prior to the release of DAZ|Studio 1.0, the base version will be made available as a free beta for an undetermined period of time until it is solid."

This is a common practice that allows potential customers to test drive the beta version (time limited usually) until the solid core version is finalized at which time the beta version life has expired. If companies run into snags and they need a longer development cycle they usually will supply patches for the beta version extending it for a predetermined time. The advantage to the customer is that they get to try out the latest and greatest before anyone else does. The advantage to the company is they receive more R for R&D then the department would be able to conduct themselves. Thus saving the company time and money.

Daz being a for profit company, from what I read, states they intend to persue this route. So if you think that Daz is going to be giving away a free "Poser" you better start saving up your money now.

"I just hope DAZ is smart enough to implement FBX as the export standard to LW MAX etc." That would be great. The more interplay between these programs the better. Then we can use each one to do what it does best, we can move files from one to the other and everybody wins. -jjsemp

"I still have never seen anywhere where Daz states they are going to release Studio for FREE. What I have read is the following: "Prior to the release of DAZ|Studio 1.0, the base version will be made available as a free beta for an undetermined period of time until it is solid."" You are 100% correct, InfoCentral. Daz has made no promise to give away the final product for free. And ultimately, to do anything really elaborate (like animation), we'll have to pay. They've already told us that. I like Daz as a company, but Daz is in this to keep themselves alive as a business. They're not going to give us anything that won't lead to us giving them more of our money down the line. -jjsemp

and please share why you think CL Never did this Sorry, but I won't share any interals from past employers. But I'm wondering what makes you so shure that an OpenGL Poser would require a core rewrite, given the fact that you haven't ever seen the Poser source code or any other internals? Don't get me wrong, I'm with in the opinion that not having OpenGL in Poser sucks - OpenGL ranked high in my personal wish list for Poser 5 features. But I think it's realistic to expect or at least to hope for OpenGL in version 6, in both the user's and CL's interest.

Ok im not a programmer
so can you name any
3D program that was NOT hardware accelerated
or had NO openGL
but effectively added that ability later??
in a worthwhile implementation
and please share why you think CL Never did this

No offense but you're right, your not :)

3DS Max STILL ships with a software driver in addition to OpenGL and Direct3D for the view/manipulation of objects, and many production users use it rather than the other to. While OpenGL and Direct3D are crucial for games, there are circumstances when they do not suit the needs of a 3D application's pre-render visualization.

That being said, 3DS Max was not hardware accelerated at the beginning. Neither was Lightwave that I recall.

While I have never seen the Poser source code I have worked on several other applications (game engines and 3d apps) and it is usually a fairly straightforward architectural change to add an alternative preview engine. The trick is mapping your materials into the final output and handling the (sometimes severe) limitations of OpenGL and Direct3D.

As it is, the Poser program has already simulated a render API to handle the previews, stubbing that out and dumping the geometry into an alternative like OpenGL of D3D miht be a challenge but there is no reason in the world it would require a "ground up" re-write as such thing have almost nothing to do with the core of any 3D application I have ever seen.

Neither was Lightwave that I recall. Like so many others, Lighwave started on the Amiga (in the case of Lighwave, on the legendary VideoToaster) and therefore had no way of using 3D hardware acceleration. In the same boat are Realsoft3D, TrueSpace, Cinema 4D or Imagine.

" So if you think that Daz is going to be giving away a free "Poser" you better start saving up your money now." Actually I wont bothering with still render version DAZ studio at all I can render animations in my seat of Cinema 4DXL and stills Lightwave3D 7.5 and frankly I am of the opinion that D/S will be a glorfied open GL still renderoom for the millenium figures initially maybe they will surprise us animators with worthwhile character animation tools at some "later Date" :-) As far as poser is concerned I have never seen its "Core" code etc. but obviously neither have anyone here ,so adding hardware acceleration ,open GL and fixing the well documment MASSIVE memory leak is all just THEORETICAL SPECULATION at this point particularly since CL NEVER saw fit to attempt this and E-frontier has made no specific announcments about adding any new functionality to posers aged 20th century core so we shall wait and see :-).

I have never seen its "Core" code etc. but obviously neither have anyone here Uh...I have.

"E-frontier has made no specific announcments about adding any new functionality to posers aged 20th century core so we shall wait and see :-)." Ahh, but they have made an announcment. It can be found on the Curious Labs website under the December newsletter. It states the following: "Curious Labs and e frontier together plan to develop integration between Shade 7 and the future releases of Poser. This, as well as many of the plug-in projects in development will increase the power and functionality of Poser for the 3D artist." I know that Curious Labs stated, before e-frontier took over, that Poser 6 was going to be a complete rewrite.

If I had a nickle for every time a programmer said something was straightforward but took forever and a day to implement it... ...I could afford Lightwave. If this free toy supports 3rd party plugins or even scripting it will be worth it. I suspect a fair number of scripts and plugins will come along and DAZ can sell these as brokered products without a massive price tag. Simple Key-frame Animation is not that big a deal. The key frame editor is just an interface anyway. Animation is just automated posing and picture taking. If poser didn't have animation but had better python scripting a good programmer could write a script in one day (I sound like a programmer now)to make it animate. Yes it would be horrible to use but what would you expect for a days labor. Its really not too big a deal particulary if your willing to make do with linear interpolation. Whatsmore the math on the "curved" interpolation in poser isn't that complicated (I really sound like a programmer now). In any case I'd trust the small independent programmers to get this stuff out much quicker than DAZ would anyway. this might just be the gift we all wanted afterall if it evergets here.

"If poser didn't have animation but had better python scripting a good programmer could write a script in one day (I sound like a programmer now)to make it animate. (Yes it would be horrible to use but what would you expect for a days labor.)"

Well I wouldn't expect anything at all out of a days work on it - I also wouldn't actually USE it for anything. Grafting a multi-track keyframe, kinimatic aware, BVH compatible animation system on D|S with a Python script and have it be really usable and competitive?

Not in a day ... not in a lot of days.

<<Grafting a multi-track keyframe, kinimatic aware, BVH compatible animation system on D|S with a Python script and have it be really usable and competitive? Not in a day ... not in a lot of days.>> I guess this comes back to the point that different people have different needs. I don't need bvh so its not an issue for me. Inverse Kinematics isn't a big deal because your just interpolating between key frames where Kinematics are turned on. What do you think Poser is doing anyway? The Key editor is just a nice and shiny map for dial settings with flags embedded to indicate key frame (T or F) or interpolation method (L, Q, or C). It's not rocket science. The big question is whether the beta of D|S would even have multiple frames at all. In any case my point is NOT that Python would be the ideal way to do it or even 'competitive' just that it would work. Its simply that if D|S supports robust scripting and/or plugins producing a crappy keyframe editor would not take more that a day and making it better over time would just take some elbow grease. And that effort could come quicker and cheaper from third parties than from Daz. Daz can broker this software and make money without doing any work then when they have the resources sometime in 2004 they can do something to please all the snobs around here. There is a large spectrum between an OpenGl Pose room and a Lighwave compatible Animating studio that supports BVH, and FBX right off the bat. If you give me scripting I'll take my FREE BETA sooner thank you very much.

I'm not a programmer but... CROWD: YOU'RE RIGHT YOU'RE NOT A PROGRAMMER!!! I realize I've mixed like four different language syntaxes here but basically anytime a dial is set or a part moved this function would get called and the current frame for the current actor would need to get flagged as a key frame. Making a graphical interface for this wouldn't be too hard (Now THAT I've done in a day!). For each Frame in Frames For each Figure in AllFigures For each Actor in Actors For each Paramater in ActorParameters keyFlag = IsKeyFrameForThisParameter intFlag = interpolationMethodForThisParameter If keyFlag = False Then set x1 = previousKeyframe.ID set x2 = thisKeyframe.ID set x3 = nextKeyframe.ID set y1 = previousKeyframe.thisParam.Value set y3 = nextKeyframe.thisParam.Value Set ThisParam.intFlag = prevKeyframe.intFlag intervalX = x3 - x1 intervalXprime = x2 - x1 (blah blah blah if linear y = mx+b...) set thisParam.Value = y2 End if Loop Loop Loop Loop