When I defended Renderosity at PoserPros, I got bashed by Legume. :-)

I distictly remember an old newsletter where everyone was promised an "arc of protection". Maybe you didn't get yours. :)

SnowSultan. Sometimes we cant say what we think here, so we say what we think elsewhere, because we only have the time or inclination to say, I call bulls**t. Sometimes we have a little more time. I happen to have a little time right now. It isnt the site; it is the site-as-oxymoron. It is the good bad place. It is the art business. It is the encouragement of learning only certain things. It is the community of support, where members cheat each other. It is the rules on free thought and expression. It allows some of the most anxiety causing elements to run wild, but wont allow natural order to stop them. Generally speaking, this is because the minimization of hypocrisy, passive-aggressive baiting and professional backstabbing (infringement) is accomplished in the online world by flaming it into oblivion allowing those with good intentions to fight fire with the fire of embarrassment and shame. But, thats a Catch-22: Visible flame wars may run off potential marketplace customers. Therefore, the obvious and apparently inexpensive solution may actually be unaffordable. Dont think the Evil Entities at PoserPros and other sites have good intentions? Think again. What would be the odds of the recent increase in infringement taking place if C&D still existed and Legume were still here? As a potential infringer, which would you rather avoid? Would you choose unfulfilled threats of being forced to pay back the customers and/or the infringed merchant, or would you prefer to watch a lengthy discussion on your ethics between Legume, Demosthenes, Ironbear, Questor, Spinner, Cyberstretch and PJF? The very same individuals who practice the arts of hypocrisy and baiting here are terrified of those nyms, because whether we want to admit it or not, they are the merchants of fairness. Yet, this is the second Catch-22: Their strong sense of justice causes them to speak out when the store itself does something that appears to be inequitable to the merchants and/or gallery artists. This leads to the third Catch-22. Renderosity is not a democracy. But, its also not a socialist utopia. The members here should be adult enough to understand that it is a business and sometimes decisions must be made to promote profitability. This isnt often expressed clearly, but it wouldnt matter if it were, because eliminating the flame warriors reduces the overall intelligence quotient of the site. It shrinks the number of people best equipped to understand the complexities involved and possibly explain them in a lucid manner. When was the last time you saw a good flame posted by a stupid person? In fact, running off those such as Legume equates to protecting the community by removing the protectors and in their stead, issuing oxymoronic decrees edicts that on the surface do not make sense, because they oppose the initial attraction to this site, yet fit snugly into the perpetuation of the marketplace addiction. It is bait and switch marketing at the business model level. I dont know that its intentional, but sadly, the Catch-22s may make it imperative. This is a fact: I never saw as much discussion about the various kinds of art; what goes into making art; what should be considered art as I did when Legume was posting in the gallery. Today, we see mundane and ridiculous discourse along the lines of, Lightwave and Maya are used to make art. Poser isnt. Quickly followed by, please dont argue. Lets love everybody and make a rule about it. For the record, Id like to postulate that conversations such as these are too idiotic to constitute argument. Yes, Evil Entities bring intellectual baggage. But, they also bring intellectual stimulation. You do not have to agree with them to appreciate them. Lightwave and Maya do not carry this sites financial burden and they never will. Some problems are better solved with Evil Entities than they are with total and complete submission to the Catch-22s.

Here you're not supposed to to have arguments or disagree or go OT on threads. That is stifling and I think it's the base of most of the 'problem' threads here. Lots of folks who normally would be very pleasant get irked when they feel somewhat muzzled. Again I say that 'rosity need to look at other sites that are less restrictive and try to understand why that's OK and the other sites haven't gone down in flames. problem I have with Poserpros is that it seems to have become a place where everyone who hates Renderosity (for whatever reason) can get together and badmouth us SnowSultan people go to PPs or 3-DArena or Rendervisions etc. to talk about their issues with 'rosity because they can't do it here without getting warnings or downright banned. So they go to the places where they can actually say what's on their mind without any fear- not just from the administration- but from the forum members as well. The copyright infringement threads were rather different over at Poserpros.

Red God I'd also be pretty pissy if someone did an unwarranted redirect to prove a point outside a techie forum - Good stunt, excellent DHTML, 10 out of 10 for style - but the beef was between _Audrey and Rendo, not with me and my browser - and bar the Gestaposity stuff, I have no issues with PP. As for people having the reactions they do - I find it hard to take any of this too, too seriously; It seems some mistake fits of pique for rebellion and generic forum weaseling for constructive dialogue. Also keep in mind that saying I am against the above, does not mean I am in favour of how a lot of things are handled here. And finally - does it mean that if people kiss Anton's ass, they will become instant Poser Gods ? That can't be all bad, I bet he can tell them the difference between lock layer, clone, and heal in Photoshop ;-) ~S

"When I defended Renderosity at PoserPros, I got bashed by Legume. :-)"

Join the club. :) For all his mouth, Legume's ok and coming from me that's saying something. He'll respect you if you stand up to him and he doesn't appear to hold grudges when it's just you speaking your opinion.

"And finally - does it mean that if people kiss Anton's ass, they will become instant Poser Gods ?"

So, Anton's ass is like the poser version of the Blarney Stone? :p

"pushinfaders: You can't bitch at people for the topic of their posting when the thread was specifically sorted by moderators. That's bloody well ridiculous." I disagree, First off, I wasn't bitching. Sorry if it came off that way. My intention was to try to keep this thread from turning into the usual "us v.s. them" debate. They tend to get ugly fast. Secondly, I like a good healthy debate as much as the next person. Just keep it civil...That's all I ask. (please)

hmmm... Kiss Anton's ass and create better Poser art ? I don't see an issue here ;-) (Sorry Anton, I don't know you very well, but this was just too good an opportunity to take the pi^^^...poke fun at things) " he doesn't appear to hold grudges when it's just you speaking your opinion." No. And too many people do, and too many people seem to keep a grudge record, and it's like this infestation of gnats with little nibbles and back-bites at any opportunity. Its almost like the generic forum motto reads "Let no slight or grudge be forgotten" - and the traffic it generates is impressive to behold. Or maybe there is just some major culture thing I am not getting ;-) ~S

My intention was to try to keep this thread from turning into the usual "us v.s. them" debate. They tend to get ugly fast. And really, really boring. ;-) bonni

SnowSultan people go to PPs or 3-DArena or Rendervisions etc. to talk about their issues with 'rosity because they can't do it here without getting warnings or downright banned.<< I don't believe that. People can, they just let their emotions take over and often don't do it in a civilized tone. Migel, that's a very well thought-out post and you make some good points. Whether I agree or not, thank you for taking the time to respond. >>because whether we want to admit it or not, they are the merchants of fairness.<< Well I see that no matter how many times I've tried to stand up for infringed merchants or to do what's right, I didn't make the list. ;) I think it's a good time for me to step away from participating in the forums for a while and rethink exactly in what way I wish to be a part of the 3D community. My free stuff won't go anywhere though, don't worry. :) Thanks for your time, take care. SnowS

"Or maybe there is just some major culture thing I am not getting ;-)"

It's strictly indigenous to message board environments. :)

"I don't know the reason but that browser re-direction stunt won't earn alot of sympathy. No, look over at Poser Pros and 3-Darena. It already did. " uhm - no it didn't. It got a mention at 3-darena.com - it didn't get "sympathy". Frankly I think it was tacky. quote Migal: "Would you choose unfulfilled threats of being forced to pay back the customers and/or the infringed merchant, or would you prefer to watch a lengthy discussion on your ethics between Legume, Demosthenes, Ironbear, Questor, Spinner, Cyberstretch and PJF? The very same individuals who practice the arts of hypocrisy and baiting here are terrified of those nyms, because whether we want to admit it or not, they are the merchants of fairness. Yet, this is the second Catch-22: Their strong sense of justice causes them to speak out when the store itself does something that appears to be inequitable to the merchants and/or gallery artists." Since 4 of the 7 you mention are staff/mods at 3-D Arena (SnowS - I was lef tout to EG) I can vouch for that because believe me if any of them thought I was instituting an unfair or assinine rule/action they would have no problem telling me - even in the public forums. Yes, I do actually listen to them. SnowS - Caly is right - people go to "where" they are allowed to voice their opinions, it is human nature to need a place to complain or sound off. C&D and the old Bar here were good for that. Equally people need to go where they feel that their opinions matter and will be given weight. Asking for feedback and ignoring it simply doesn't garner feelings that they make a difference. Yes, I admit there is complaining about renderosity - and many other things (including gun control, political decisions, war, bad art etc.) at 3-D Arena, but we keep it contained in the Bar and mostly in Ironbear's RFI - but then again that is what RFI did when it was here for years.

NP. I worked hard to keep my ass in good shape. :) I think it is funny that everytime someone gets mad at me they all repeat the same stuff. "Anton is a ego maniac" "Anton is a snob" "Anton is everyone's pet" blah blah blah Actually I only really talk to three people on the phone. I am always willing to talk to new people though. And no matter how many questions I asnwe I am always a snob. DOn't get that one. 3DCommune kissing my ass? What is that about? Hey Remember, "Daz representative using Gastapo tactics"? That was my favorite anton-theory thread. :)

quote Migal: "Would you choose unfulfilled threats of being forced to pay back the customers and/or the infringed merchant, or would you prefer to watch a lengthy discussion on your ethics between Legume, Demosthenes, Ironbear, Questor, Spinner, Cyberstretch and PJF?

Hmmm....I'm glad to know that the Poser Universe has a committee of OFFICIAL ARBITERS OF EQUITY.

So, when did I miss the vote?

Nothing against anyone on the list -- I just wasn't aware that we had a group of people that the rest of us were supposed to be answering to.

damn straight, cowboy, and you better start answering REAL fast };-) If it helps, xeno, it was a surprise to us as well, but now that our egos have been sufficiently inflated, we'll do our best to fulfill this role cross-community. Seriously - I think Migal has seen our cough arbiting tactics, and I dont think he meant it as a flattering comment... On to my first question: WHY aren't YOU watching the Superbowl ? ~S ~S

I'm not a big sports fan. But I am mildly interested in the Panthers.

First, Ironbear's 'home' tends to be RFI- ie, 3-DArena, not Poserpros, though he visits, like a lot of folks. Second Legume's 'home' tends to be 'rotica/3-darena, with sniff rare visits to Poserpros. Spinner's 'home' is 3-Darena, so is Questor's... The 'Poserpros' is 'out to get us' is sheer paranoia. People post because 'rosity messes up, period. If you don't like it, fix it. Oh, and Poserpros does have a TOS. :D The learning forums are for learning. If an OT post happens you don't get abused though. :D The 'No-Holds-Barred' forum is the Chicken Coop, though the General Discussion forum is also rather open. I believe 3-dArena has a similar set-up. It tends to work... And Anton, you of all people should know how annoying it is when you work for a company and every post you make is taken as if it's an official post by that company/forum/store. Oh wait, Red_Dog doesn't work for Poserpros. That nick doesn't post there. And even if he did, I'm sure he's allowed to have his own opinions separate from whichever site he calls 'home'. ;) Oh, and I would imagine that calling someone a liar and emotionally disturbed is sort of a, oh, I dunno, personal attack... On someone who hasn't even posted in these forums in awhile.

Well, I tried.... Despite the efforts of my self and a few other, this discussion has continued to go downhill. Call it what you will, but this thread is done.