I would like to have some of your opinions. I m not critisizing anybody but I m following 1 years the evolution of poser and I m really disapointed in some points. I think Poser users (me as well) are not really 3D artist. Having a character like Victoria or Michael and buying clothes, hair, lights set, poses and then put it together in a scene and press a render is not something that we can be proud. I have seen many pictures in the Gallery and even my pictures with many comments and ranking. But why since most of the pictures are not from our own work, everything have been bought or found in the free stuff. Is it really that a 3D artist? Another thing that I was asking myself is why the Poser Market is so huge compared with other 3D softwares. The answer is sometimes so obvious, only poser user can buy because most of them have no idea on how to create a character or a prop. Again it s just what I m thinking, I don t want to judge anybody, I m not an anti poser guy but we have to be aware that when sometimes poeple are criticizing us they are not totaly wrong because the real 3D art is really hard to achieve in softwares such as Maya, 3D studio max, lightwave.... Why am I saying all that? It s because I have heard and read from poser users that poser software is the best and can do things that other softwares cannot do. But that s totaly wrong because without the 3D developer softwares that allows to make props or characters poser would not have achieved this reputation because most of the poser user do not really know the 3D art.

I agree with the base arguement you have presented here, but art isn't always about creating everything from scratch, it's more a personal representation of yourself through (usually) non verbal, visible means.

People who make sculptures from old cars or other objects are called artists and they don`t make the things either they just put them together like putting poser figures etc together to make a scene.

Hmmmm, yes, I agree, but isn't the compostition of a piece of work art. I mean you have to put it together, decide on what the right lighting will be which you have to adjust, same with shadowing, and coloring and changing of textures etc. I feel that the whole composition of the piece that you are doing is so independent and so artistic....just spend a day in the Poser gallery, and you will see so many and I often wonder, what was that artist thinging when they put this together, did they get the reaction from others that they expected.... I understand what you say, but I feel a true artist is so independent and so creative, with the tools we use here. Sharen

3D art is, essentially, any art created using a 3D tool. Poser is a tool, just like any of the rothers. Folks in Poser DO create their own stuff -- all the time. But Folks in Poser also realized something the "other" folks didn't -- this stuff can be packaged and sold just like any other commodity. The reason they don't sell it as much is because they don't want to. Doesn't make them better or worse. Just different. There are those who think for themselves in the other groups that know that Poser is a useful tool. They might not say a lot, but that's because they are busy working with it.

well....if your just using poser itself and no compositing, etc. is involved, just "pure" poser content (i.e. wham...bam load a figure, hair, and all that good stuff), then i will have to say "hell no" you aint no artist! BUT... 1. if you use Poser with APS n doin composites then YES you are an aritst....this includes simple things like painting hair and stuff.... 2. If you use Poser and model even simple stuff like props in Carrara for use in Poser then YES you are an artist...... 3. if you use 3DS/Lightwave or other high end progs in conjunction with Poser (for use in Poser) then YES you are an artist.... pretty much any thing you do besides using Poser ONLY BY ITSELF (i.e. "poser purists") makes you an artist. with the number of poser users growing per month....and all the DAZ stuff being bought by many people per month....WHERE WILL THE ORIGINALITY COME FROM? the answer is in modeling your OWN stuff to make your pics/animation unique....

Image touched with any image editor after rendering is in the classification of 2D art my dear friends.. we work with a 3D tool as ynsaen said already so we are 3D artist... we create unique scenes and here no matter what you use.. as Sharen said.. look Sharen is 3D modeler and 3D artist.. 3d modeler create the models for the 3D artist that render it.. there are 2 different section.... Cath

well at first poser is a tool for any "artistic" behavior or creation, or any other uses in some extents,s tandardized characters and clothes, such as DAZ peoples, are becoming tools too in their way. what i think is that, if given same BASIC tools (same softwre, same 3d character and such) if someone HAS to provide efforts and thoughts into producing something out of those elemnets, and that another one using same tools can prodive something DIFFERENT from the first, then there is something they gave/injected in the process, something that was not inside the tools, somethign that came from them and that is unique. call it art or not, but as i could see, making "DECENT" poser pictures, with or without postworks, out of standardized figures, does not ONLY requires to push the "render" button. As a fact, there then must be something else involved.

it is a good argumetn you brought though but it was already discussed over and over, and even as a good argumetn it cannot stand against absurd/illogical/extreme parodic reasonning. I mean, photographs are viewed as artists, would they make a photo of a landscape, of a model, etc... They did not SHAPE the landscape or gave birth to the model themselves, so they used something they did not make themselves and that others can use all the same. So what makes he known and skilfull photographer in the beach next to me producing a picture that will be called art of the sea landscape and my camera only producing "holiday souvenirs" ? :) I lend him my camera and he switch with me, i still produce "holiday souvenirs" and he still produces "ART", out of same place/landscape. Poser is just a home photostudio :)

Cool, this hasn't come up in about a week...lol Marque

Poser is to the 3-D artist as the camera is to a professional photographer! Does that mean during the 10 years I spent as a professional photographer I never created one piece of art? My photographs were published in magazines, on posters, on T-shirts, and in concert programs. I reject your thought process and while I don't mean to be rude because you do have the right ro ask and think what you want, I find your argument wholly without merit. I also feel somewhat insulted at the notion that composition does not create art, to me composition is the cornerstone of art. Without composition you have only factual representation of a subject, there's no context to factual representation so there is no art. Hence the name Com--Pose--ition, I don't believe you have to create an object from nothing in order to be an artist, to me that's a modeler. Are some models artwork, yes, just as those who POSE the models and RENDER a photograph of that com-POSE-ition is an artist as well. Enough said, I hope!

Even if you did make your own characters, clothing, scenery textures, etc., you'd still have to put it all together to make "art." That's what the Poser artist does...puts it all together. I'd guess there are at least a few good modelers out there who can't do a decent picture. Is the person who makes the paint brush more of an artist than the person who uses it?

I have to disagree with your statement John I for one could not create the art I create without the use of such programs as Poser,Bryce PSP,Photoshop etc. Just because I don't model my own stuff doesn't mean I am not a artist in my own right. I can not get the hang of modeling so I use either free products or buy them for use in my art. I am a published artist and also have sold some of my art work at DragonCon a large convention of SciFi,Horror,and Fantasy Art Show that is country wide. So I don't agree with your statement that if we don't use modeling programs and such we aren't artist. Just my opinion. SndCastie

According to the latest string theory all matter is supposedly 2 dimensional. So no. We can't call ourselves 3D artists.

I like Riddokun's argument about switching cameras. Art is what an artist creates. The tools are absolutely irrelevant to whether the product can be called art (or souvenir, promo image, cat-pan-liner). The ONLY thing which matters is the mind and intention of the artist. If it is original and comes from within the artist, it is art. End of argument. Carolly

Attached Link: http://rendervisions.com/modules.php?name=Gallery&file=search&search_user=geoegress

...frankly, I can call myself anything I want. Some artist strung miles of cloth across the countryside and called it art. He said it was art, so it was art. It was enough of Art to be in Time and Newsweek. Was it good art? That's for each person to decide. If I do a naked dork on a black background with the default texture and lights, in the default pose, and print it - then it's art. I made a decision on what placement, lights, texture, and pose to use. Admittedly it wasn't anything creative, but I can still call it art, and myself an artist. Poser is no different from any other tool. A poser picture with only canned poses, textures, lighting, and figures is no different from a collage of photographs. It's the choices we make that give it the artistic feel. Originality? Define it for me. Are old master paintings of still lifes original? Not really. They're all bowls of fruit using a single media (oil usually). Boring! But beautiful. Now, as to quality. A single canned pose of a face with a texture and a single light can be beautiful. Some of the best art I've seen here has been face portraits of Posette or V2 with a free texture and a single light. Can a Poser render be beautiful. I think so. Review the gallery for the last week. You'll find dozens, many using only Poser and purchased or free products. Art is in the eye of the beholder, and an artist is anyone who calls him/herself one. This discussion surfaces every month or so. Go through the past threads for more discussion. After a while the "art" snobs get me down.

I guess this would be to say that the 'animators' in Finding Nemo, Shrek, and Final Fantasy are Not Artists...after all, they all didn't model the characters that they animated, the modelers did....right? I like the way Mec4D put it, and I agree that as soo as you touch it with a 2D app then it becomes '2D art' and no longer 100% '3D art'. The "two classifications" sounds like the strongest argument to me....IMO ...but then I'm just a techie who 'plays with computer dolls'

If I may add my 2 cents.... Take for instance a musical artist. Most of the current artists out in the world today do not make the own musical instruments, but they do create art. The Poser issue is the same analogy. I have not created the models that I use in my work, even though I am an accomplished modeller in other packages. I use a piece from here and there to create an artwork, much like a conductor at the symphony. Without that conductor or arranger, the other elements would be just that...single elements not working in harmony. So I guess what I'm trying to say is without the composer/conductor/arranger, they would be elements making noise without a melody and harmony. That is how I view my work within Poser...the comPOSER/conductor of the final 3D artwork. Thanks for the ear.

poser is to us 3d-artists as paint is to a painter. A painter doesn't (usually) make their own paint, but simply uses it to create what we call art, as we tend to use pre-made figures to create our art.

As soon I win the lottery maybe I can afford to be a "real" 3d artist.... Good lord..give it a rest. I make the best use of the tools I have.... Anyone here have the 10-40G to plop down on LW/3ds & Maya???? I know most so called professionals use all 3. It's all how you use the tools you have!!!! Look at the movie Shrek....Poser could have easliy been used to aid & assist in the making of this movie...if you were an expert that is. Which I am not. I have yet myself to become profient in modelling myself, there I buy what I can. How do think the BIG houses work!!! They pay someone to make the model, someone to texturize it and then the studio buys it, them someone else animates it. I see a lot of middlemen here, DON'T YOU???? Everyone has there own specialty. I have a sneaky suspicion this all goes back to all the nudes in the gallery....same ol...same ol. IMHO..instead of yakking about it do something about! Create something unique!!! I try to, and I do say TRY. Why don't you go look at other galleries if Poser upsets you so much. Many galleries here combine several packages together..ie Vue/Poser/Bryce etc... I've recently perused(sp?) the 3ds gallery & seen some of the people models that people have made & quite frankly it was not good. OTOH the "props" or architectual side of 3ds was Outstanding. So............We all end up buying someone else models & applying to a pic we derivie in our own minds..so it is art.

If the definition is creating from scratch, then where do you stop? I didn't make the models. I didn't program Lightwave. I didn't write the programming language. I didn't code the computer that wrote the programming language. I didn't build the chips that created the computer. I didn't mold the silicon that created the chips. I didn't create the silicon either, for that matter. I certainly didn't create the universe the atoms were found in...

I still consider myself an artist, even tho I'll never make a cent off my work. I CREATE, and that's all that really matters.

Hum....just wondering how many times this same subject has to be hashed out......been done before, being done now, and will probably be done in the future...damn, this gets old.

I agree Cherokee..but for some reason it still seems to get everyones nads in roar whenever it comes up...by the way I don't have nads LOL ;) You want to see worse crap said..go look in the 3ds forum..what's ironic..they are creating people models that can't even come close to Daz etc...so I guess they don't think that there models will soon be in our Poser inventory(if good enough) and raking in the cash from us NON ARTISTS. What a load of BS..since they are the ones creating stuff for all to use LOL BAH HUMBUG!!!!

Attached Link: http://www.christojeanneclaude.net/rfOld.html

hm. I think the base arguement is a good thought, but I do not agree. 3D art = is not inventing the tools. it is what you make of it. You could have thousands of freebies and commercial products on your harddrive without being able to create something good. I mean who did invent the brush? It was not Salvador Dalor Yves Tanguy. Who did invent canvas? They didn`t. But they used it to make their visions come real. We all use our fantasy and imagination to create great scenes. The Poser props are just props until you as a user put them into a different context and make them important to the whole scene. Thats what art means to me. I have no idea if you understand what I mean, I just woke up and am actually not capable to use english language as a communication tool. so long Praada/Paradogma

Where's the "beating a dead horse" animation? It's long past due! ;)

LOLOL..yeah it is! For someone that doesn't want to judge anybody you sure have made alot of judements... I agree Cherokee...will it ever end.. Those that really want the answer to this question would read the archives on the subject rather than start yet another endless, mindless thread....I think some (as in the real world) just like to stir sh*T.....

yes, the topic is brought in various angles but very often... I personnaly call us (toward mostpeople) the "render button" pushers ! Join us !

As someone said above it all comes down to compostion. If thats bad it doesn't matter what medium your creating your art in, it will be bad. So lets stop worrying about what others think and concentrate on making good art.

If a max user creates yet another vista of transparent balls on a checkered background and theres nobody around to see it is it still art?

"If a max user creates yet another vista of transparent balls on a checkered background and theres nobody around to see it is it still art?" BWAHAHAHAHAAA!!! Don't forget the obligatory dolphin!

Why must this come up every other month. The answer is really simple. Are you making 3D art? Yes, therefore you are a 3D artist. Argument over. There are obviously varying degrees of skill involved.. But that is the same for ALL art. Some people paint objects, or form objects from clay, or create 3D objects on a computer to make a piece of art. Some people photograph existing objects or render existing 3D objects to make a piece of art. They are all artists, but the argument always comes up. The painter says you are not an artist because a computer or camera does the work, and not your hand and brush. The sculpter says you are not an artist because a computer formed the shapes, not your hands and tools. A 3D modeler says you are not an artist because someone else created the objects and you just stuck them together for a render. In the end it doesnt matter. They all created a piece of art.

Hey! That horse aint dead yet! It's still moving, WHACK it some more!!! ;p

If you have to start a thread about it, you're not an artist.

All settled now? Good. Now this thread can die happy and fulfilled.

I consider myself a 2D illustrator, and a graphic/web designer. I manipulate 3D objects to get 2D pictures. My clients could not give less of a damn whether or not I do my own textures, model my own figures and props, which graphic editing program I use. And you know what? I don't care, either. People get so damned hung up on the word "artist" or "3D" or whatever that they have to get all bent out of shape with definitions and titles. You are who you are, we are who we are, we do what we do. Why is it so important to label everything all the time? I don't know why I keep commenting in these threads. They're pretty much pointless, anyway. bonni

The obvious answer is : Yes, Poser users are artists. Since Poser is a 3D tool then : Yes, Poser users are 3D artists. But see it doesn't really end with a yes or no in my mind. I LOVE some of the work in the Poser community, and some of the people here are incredibly talented... but most of it I am simply not at all impressed with because of how cookie cutter it all is. When I see a great Poser image I am impressed... but when I see a truly awesome image by someone I know has also modeled the primary meshes themselves and doen the textures on there own? I am much, much more impressed. Thats just life. Now, as far as commercial art goes it's a different game - if the client pays you for it then its perfect :)

I am simply not at all impressed with because of how cookie cutter it all is. Nor am I. But you know what? Absolutely ALL genres have "cookie cutter" work. It happens in all visual arts, in web design, in floral design, in clothing design, in writing, in any sort of creative field or endeavor you can think of. The simple fact is that 90% of everything is crap. Best thing you can do is seek out the 10% that isn't. ;-) bonni

In this case the means justify the end results... Bonni is absolutly corect... if it's a cool image, who cares how you got there...........

Of course it's dead. :) It's just being whumped so hard and repeatedly that it's twitching.

"We had spaghetti at our house three times last week..." Lucy VanPelt S.

Thanks for all your opinions, but some of you thinks that I m judging but don t forget that I use Poser in 90% of my works so I don t have any reasons to do that for bad purpose. But I have a similar question that may you try to understand my way of thinking!! Who is the real artist? The one who is drawing a picture from scratch or the one who is taking different parts of other pictures then paste it and showing it as its own work ??

Both of them are real artists. Although the second person needs to be careful of copyright issues ;-) Collage is a recognised art form, no? What's important is trying to say something that hasn't been said before, or to say it in a new way. We all get sick of the endless repetition of big-breasted Vickis in temples with swords, staring cross-eyed at something, limbs all askew and floating a foot off the ground. Would those pictures really have more merit if the "artist" had made the sword himself in Wings3D?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=kawecki

I think I have understand what you are saying, and it makes sense. The important is not what and how you are doing this but what you fell anf want to show.

That same old dead horse animation ... that is SO self-referential ....

...I want a pink pony... ...we need a pink pony... Is it art though?

The answer to this ongoing riddle is NO, buying software does not make you an artist, Here in the poser community maybe there are 10 TRUE artists, the rest of us(including myself) are "people that bought software that makes pics"

Everyone here and at every other "art" site that boasts about "3d art" should get that thought out of their heads...unless they are doing animations or movies...those are 3d art and artists. When you use a 3d graphics program and put something together in that program, it's 3d. Once that 3d image is rendered and it's a flat surface, it's no longer 3d...it's 2d, you can't move around the image and see all sides. In reality, we may render in 3d but the end results are 2d images...which makes us "2d artists"...the exception are the animators and movie makers who are doing true 3d.

Dirk are you saying that those 10 people programmed their own software?????