Hi, everybody, first sorry for my ridicolus english... now i want talk about the artist Meyrink a rookie vue user who with its images obtains optimal replies of public... some brillant artists think its works not sufficiently good for the votes that they obtain (various are appeared in hot 20). My opinion is that the fantasy of Meyrink is rewarded and not the technique, moreover is possible that many customers are bore from beautiful images much made to you of landscapes, trees and clouds... what's your opinion ?

It is more likely that he/she is coming with his own group of friends or fans. Many comments in that gallery are in italian for example. With the entrance price to the Vue Top 20 being so low (4 or 5 votes), it is not surprising to see these images figure in good place. If you look at the most visited images in the gallery, most of them are scenes with landscapes, clouds and trees. Look at czarnyrobert or thomaskrahn for example. My opinion on this is the following : keep doing what YOU think is your best work. Don't look at what you think people want to see. You will develop a personal touch over time and is more valuable than any top 20 or popularity contest.

a little rectifies, my opinion is simply that "fantasy and immagination works better than ability with Vue..." only that... is satisfactory to have many comments to the own images, but, you right, the subject of the image must come from own soul, no comments or awards can modify that... bye

Well, i do my images for myself - to express some ideas. Of course i publish them here to show them to others and to have some sort of dialog about but thats it. I never know how much viewings i have or what happens in the Hot20. Not important. I feel very sorry for those who think it does mean anything and use friends or clones to be in there. It shows only how unsecure they are about their work and that not the image is important but the applause or effect in this forum. And of course a very questionable personality. I am very angry about some that seem to play games here with the images of others and use their stuff to make personal statements. We all should fight that when we see it. We have some very sensitive people as well and i dont want to see them leave or delete their galleries as i have seen it in the past. Only because others do their lame jokes or want to make weird statements. To make it clear. I dont talk about Meyrink here. Or his/her friends. I dont know anything about him/her, therefore i can only guess. And that i don't do. Walther

The very fact this is a topic shows the need for this type of attention. RR obviously has flaws and leans more towards who is popular rather than what is good art if in fact you are even interested in the top 20. To me this new id seems to draw on popularity and quite a few ids that have no gallery but feel the need to vote for images based on popularity vs quality of art. However as pointed out to me by one artist, opinions are very subjective not objective. Some come here for the attention others for good art. Not only that, many come here to poke fun at software or certain artists or take advantage of this flaw in RRs website only to show how needed some folks can be. Friends vote for friends or only comment on artists they like, even in the famous back room you can see favoritism of art that some one feels should be noticed over other artwork. Again very subjective IMHO. So I guess you can say it is a matter of opinion and since RR has no desire to fix such flaws you either live with it or move on to other sites that are managed with more objective fairness. Vue is a fantastic program and has such flexibility in doing a wide range of artwork not just landscapes and deserves good representation by the websites like RR. These sites use the software name to draw in thousands of people to basically make money (50% or more) off the items in the stores however, may lack the responsibility to clean up problems in the forums. As long as the money comes in it seems RR will not be changing anytime soon. My 25 cents for what its worth. Regards

Interesting subject. I have often wondered why there is a need for the Hot 20. Isn't the forum enough to view ones art instead of makeing a popularity contest out of it. :O) I don't have 25 cents so guess its my 2 cents worth. :o)

The image of the week in the backroom is selected by the moderator of this forum. That's the only place where a moerator can show images he personally likes especially. As the mod is doing all the work for the members, that's just normal he has one real choice:-)

"Friends vote for friends or only comment on artists they like, even in the famous back room you can see favoritism of art that some one feels should be noticed over other artwork. " As Guitta mentionned, I can confirm that this is not the case for the backroom. Every week, I review pictures posted the week before and select an image that a) I find interesting and b) that did not receive the attention I believe it deserved. Nobody is telling me who to chose from. I may look at who made the picture to make sure the same person is not selected twice in a few weeks. As for Renderosity not willing to fix the problem more objectively, I have yet to find an objective way to rate images. I personally believe it is just not possible, so maybe the only solution is to do away with a rating system altogether.

I really don't want to get into an immature justification match with the moderators in this forum. However, as I mentioned to choose is subjective. If you are choosing some piece of work that you feel deservers more attention than you think it received in the gallery then that would be very subjective plain and simple, some may even consider it favoritism. But you are the moderator and it is up to you to make the wise choice would be my guess. I would agree that doing away with ranking or rating an image would be a good idea. Constructive commentary for improvement or of approval of an image I find very helpful. However if you take away the ranking system then you may loose all the artists that do this for the attention and that may effect your bottom line. Perhaps as moderators a responsible approach would be to work with RR management and find a solution. Or check out other sites like RR that have solved this particular problem with ease. I think Im up to 75 cents by now . :O) Best regards.

I only add three things. #1 - What is good art? Can anybody who demands that i have to vote for good art only tell me some criteria? So that i dont make a mistake in the future! And don't tell me your personal preferences - i want absolut objective criteria. Nothing else. #2 - What is bad on a subjective pov? Cant i have friends? Is it not allowed to have personal preferences? Brings back the question #1 - what is good art? #3 - Are we doing competitions here? Are we struggling for love and honour? And is the criterium the amount of Hot20 entries - or wether an image is selected for the backroom or any other place? And who is the winner? Looks a lot like the old school days to me - everybody wants to be teachers darling. Funny! For me this here has a lot to do with fun. In the discussion threads here and showing and looking at images. And in the ideal case discussing them. Or minimum talking about. There are only two things that should be looked after. That the basic rules about fairness are taken care of. Like not cheating with clones for example. Or attacking and insulting others. Again, this here is fun. Full stop. That Renderosity makes money with it, well thats sort of normal. If not, this place would not exist and we all wouldn't know each other. It is the same in the music business. How much from the price of a CD the artist really gets? Not much, a lot less than 50% for sure. So you can't buy music at all. just my little cent, Walther

IMHO, anyone that wants to do away with the rating and ranking systems can simply not check the boxes for comments and rankings when they upload an image. If they do that, then there is no system for that image. I have not checked the ranking box on any of my images for a long, long time. I personally think that they are pointless, so I don't let my images be ranked. I also think that if the Hot 20 really bothers anyone that much, then they should simply stop looking in there. If you know that what you see is going to upset you, why would you go look? You're setting yourself up to be upset. I look in on the Hot 20 maybe once or twice every two or three months, just to see what's in there. Just for fun. If there is something in there that I don't think belongs, you know what I do? I shrug my shoulders, don't click on that image, and move on! It's really quite simple. And as for objectivity, I personally will not (anymore) submit my artwork to a site that has someone look over it to determine whether or not it is good enough to be on that site. Art is subjective. Let the viewer decide whether they like it or not. Renderosity remains objective by allowing it's members to post any of their works, within Renderosity's TOS, and also allows the artist to decide whether to let anyone who views that image make a comment. And as for the Hot 20, if you don't like it, don't vote on any images, or look at it. That way, that person doesn't have to deal with it. I want to say that I'm sorry if I've come across a little too strong. That was not my intention. I've seen so many threads here about the comments, rankings, and Hot 20. If someone doesn't like them or agree with them, then they shouldn't allow rankings or comments, or look in on the Hot 20. Just my $1.25 Mike

Rodluc,

it's just a passing cloud of surrealists, pay it no heed, your particular parade is not of the variety they wish to rain on.

John

My opinion on this matter goes a little countercurrent. Saving the subjective criterion to judge an image, the objective criterion it must be safeguarded also. The first one can be express with the personnels comments and appreciations to the image. The second can be express with the relative vote. This is possible, keeping in mind of some parameters "objective" of quality with which the same image has been realized. IMO, these could be the parameters to consider: idea (subject and fantasy), composition, modeling, texturing, illumination, POV, mood (colors and atmosphere). In truth I would not be for abolishing the ranking, but rather to strengthen it, since I see in it an utility to put in evidence the imagination and the technique united together, where each of us can draw for improving own skill. IMO the fancy it's not separated by the technique and by the method, but all together it competes to make the art. Luigi.

Ok Luigi, you defined some criteria that makes an image - but could you please define what is "good" there and "not so good"? In objective terms, not your personal opinion. I think this will be an endless discussion about nothing really. My position here is exactly as miden1138 said it. Nearly no word to add really. Only that, if Renderosity keeps the ranking system, there are two modifications i would like to see. #1 - back to the old principle that each given ranking is related to the name who gave it. Makes it clearer and everybody sees who has voted how. And the cowards who hide themselves in crowds are easier identified. #2 - The option that i can decide wether my image can be voted to the Hot20 or not. At the moment i can decide about ranking or comments but not about voting. I would love that. But all in all - don't take all this too serious. The discussion about "good" and "not so good" is as old as art is. We will not solve it here! We are even probably not able to solve the issue what good taste is and bad! But we can talk about fairness, helpfullness and considerateness! That is my theme in that context. Walther

I agree with Walther, 100%. And to the individual who felt it necessary to send me an insulting IM the last time I posted on this subject, please don't bother doing so again. I am entitled to my opinion.

These types of discussions remind of High School..who's more popular than other....~sigh~ I didn't like cliques then, and at age 44 I don't like them now. That being said, I could care less if I'm in the HOT20. I do what I do for relaxation & for the fun of it. I hope to one day subsidize my income by doing something with all this(so I can go part time in my current job) or for those golden retirement years(it will take years to master all aspects of 3d/2d work). For now, as long as my hubby likes what I do and I like what I do, that's good enough for me. Why stress out over of all of this??? We are doing this for fun aren't we??? No need to add more stress to ones life by worrying over this kind of crap(OMG I didn't make it in the HOT20)~eye roll~ I personally enjoy posting in the Vue gallery..I do on occassion get the critical comments, which I have NO objection to at all. After all, aren't we here to improve are skills???

Well opinions like other things, everyone has one. Some want to stick their head in the sand and say who cares and I can understand that. Hey I just want to have fun and relax. I think we all want that. Others seem to want change or more options and that to me shows they care and are willing to advocate for it. I assure you my intentions have always been pure and I will always assist and help others in any way I can. However I feel this thread was bait and looks like we all took it. The only sad thing I see is the need to use others to feel important about ones self. That is very sad IMHO. I am not an advocate of ranking in any form. Constructive critics are more than welcome however. Adding a box that does not allow others to vote for an image to be in the hot 20 would most defiantly be check by me for sure. I think this subject has been beaten to death as always and of course there seems no real answer here at RR. Other sites have found fairly simple solutions but change may cost and it seems when that is the case it will not come easy if at all. In any case I wish RR luck in there endeavors and I am thankful for the start in CGA that was inspired by this site.

Salve a tutti. Io sono uno degli amici di Meyrink, anzi direi "lamico" di Meyrink. Ho letto questo post e alcuni commenti ai suoi lavori. Lui il primo a sapere di dover migliorare tecnicamente, come me e come il 99 % di quelli presenti in queste gallerie. Trovo singolare che invece di dare utili consigli si preferisca emettere sentenze dettate da misteriose motivazioni. Per quanto riguarda l'aspetto artistico la discussione potrebbe non avere fine. Chi l'artista? Colui che riempie l'opera di oggetti e texture (spesso non suoi) o quello che con poche semplici cose riesce a stimolare i sentimenti e la fantasia di chi guarda? Forse entrambi? La discussione potrebbe anche essere interessante ma ora c'e un fatto nuovo. Ho visto che qualcuno ha fatto un clone di nome "mafiosi" e con questo lascia commenti sarcastici ai lavori di Meyrink. Dal nick e dal tono risulta evidente il messaggio che vuol lanciare. Questa una cosa molto grave e se voleva essere uno scherzo venuto fuori male! Tirare in ballo una piaga cospesante per un hobby mi sembra veramente da stupidi, non fosse altro per rispetto alle centinaia di morti che ha provocato. Spero di non dover pivedere cose simili su un sito che credevo serio. Sono molto deluso, questi non sono artisti, sono solo dei poveracci. Saluti. Automatic translation Hi to everybody. I am one of the friends of Meyrink, rather I would say "the friend" of Meyrink. I have read this post and some comments to his jobs. He is the first one to know to have to technically improve, as me and as the 99% of the artists in these galleries. I find unusual that instead of giving profits suggestions is preferred to send forth sentences dictated by mysterious motivations. As it regards the artistic aspect the discussion it would be able not to have end. Who is the artist? Who fills the work of objects and textures (often not own) or who stimulate the feelings and the imagination with few simple things ? Perhaps both? The discussion could be also interesting but now there is a new thing. I have seen that someone has made a clone with nick "mafiosi" and with this he submit sarcastic comments to the jobs of Meyrink. From the nick and from the tone it results evident the message that he wants to launch. This is a very serious thing and if it wanted to be a joke has come badly out! Talk about a heavy sore for a hobby seems me really stupid, it was not other for in comparison to the hundred corpses that it provoked. I hope not to owe to see similar things on a site that I believed serious anymore. I am very disappointed, these are not artists, they are only poor thing. Regards.

The comment by mafiosi has been deleted. Please send an IM to any moderator when such things happens. Thanks, Guitta

In fact, 3 comments by mafiosi were deleted and actions will be taken by administrators. Whe know whom's clone it is.

Yet another victim, well if you know who it is I sure hope something can be done about this type of thing in the future this has gone on way too long at this site with many victims. I sure hope some can take the sand out of their eyes to see how this can be very hurtful to the good people here. Sure it is easy to be apathetic and just not go there but until it happens to you I guess you really dont understand how hurtful it can be.

rds I agree with you and hope it could be stopped. I have had a forum for quite a long time and to be honest it is hard to stop unless you have registration by approvel only with a legit email addy and then log that ip as soon as the person makes a post. Anyone can hide behind a proxy and no one can track that ip down. It is easy to do by the ones who know how. For someone to be doing this so gebe and others can see tells me thay are dumb and not very smart with what they are doing.

I think it is very simple to go around that thing. Give me the community and i will set up different ids easily. I am sure. I setup one at home, one in the office for example. And one with a Yahoo address, one with my address at t-online, one for web.de etc etc. How can you stop that? I think the problem lies somewhere else and can't be solved really. Lets try to convince the mods and admins that they publish all people that use their multiple ids to vote for their own and for other images. I am sure that this information can be pulled out of the system. Lets be good examples! First i don't like these dark intimations about "heads in the sand" or victims. Maybe i am not intelligent enough to understand that. I want clear facts on the table, not guesses. So please speak clear and based on facts! Second. I would like that Rick explains why he fights so heavily against multi ids but has two (i know of) as well. And uses them regularily (last login of "photogroup" was 03/26/2004). Is that the good example we should give? I ask for that because i am tired of these discussions, knowing that the person that demands the rules heavily is not following those himself. A question of fairness and "good example". Personal statement I always try to imagine how somebody does that. Logs in with different ids and vote for their own or someone elses images. What a sad scene. They know exactly that they can't make it by themselves and that they need to cheat. I only feel sorry for these people and i really think they need help. THIS IS A HOBBYIST COMMUNITY, not a war zone. Walther

Bravo, Walther. You said it better than I could have.

Ok gang up on me I really don't care and that of course will not make the problem go away. Head in the sand means you choose not to see this as a problem. And I have ONE ID that I have used from day one here at RR and that is rds what other id are you referring too? If you can find one it surely was not made by me. Walter you and Christie would do better to point your fingers else where IMHO. The reason I fight against this kind of thing is simple it is the right thing to do. The Fact is Christie you where attack at one point by this type of activity and you felt very strongly about it. I did my best to assist back then and now some how you feel it's no big deal? How soon we forget. I take particular offense at your accusation Walter that I have more than one id here at RR in fact that is an absolute lie. I know you and Gebe and Djeser are good friends and don't want to be proven wrong but this transcends all of your personal feelings and is in the best interests of all to do what can be done to stop this multi id type of attacks on this community. If you are tired of this type of commentary from me just put your head back in the sand and don't read it. Or try and do something to stop it but dont shoot the messenger.

Oh, please. Do not even begin to be self-righteous with me, about doing your "best to assist back then" or anything else. "The right thing to do"? Says who? Are you now on the admin or moderator team here? The "white knight" and "wounded warrior" act has worn very thin with a lot of people, and I am not interested in your "crusade".

Walther's point about "THIS IS A HOBBYIST COMMUNITY, not a war zone." is absolutely spot on. This is supposed to be FUN, people! Not a matter of life and death, as some would have you believe. I do this stuff for fun and stress relief, and if someone bothers me or harrasses me, I report it. I have always had extremely good assistance from the admin and mod team here. If you've got a problem with the way Rendero is run, then LEAVE! Go somewhere else! Nobody is forcing anybody to stay here, post here, vote, rate, comment, or anything else! If someone is bugging you, hassling you, report it to the moderators and admins! We now have 2 mods here at Vue forum/gallery, Guitta has always responded very quickly when I've had a problem, and I'm sure Laurent will do the same.

I come here to look at artwork, see if folks like my images, find out what's new in the forums. I try to answer a question in the forum if I know the answer, and I ask questions when I need help with something. That's the meaning of community. My life is extremely stressful at the moment; I don't need more stress. Working on images and looking at others' work is a good de-stressor for me. I don't come here to create problems, hassle anyone, create clones, or anything like that. Folks who do that are just plain pathetic, imvho. So give the admins and mods the chance to do their jobs, and they will do it.

As for "head in the sand", I find that fairly humorous...gosh, must be because I have a life, lol!

Now that is funny like I mentioned how soon we forget read your own words Christie. http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12368&Form.ShowMessage=1365310 I am sure you want me to leave but you can also take your own advice and leave as well or just choose not to read my posts. But I assure you I am not going any where any time soon. This has and will continue to be a problem with this site and problems are made to be solved IMHO. Telling lies and trying to make me out as the bad guy here is ridiculous. I will continue to point out these flaws as long as people are being hurt by them like it or not. :O)

Rick, i still dont see any grain of fact in your words. But a lot of guesses. Facts on the table and no more "i have my sources" or "head in the sand". Not the multi ID's are the problem. The people that use them for cheating and attacking. are it. And if you know them - and i mean know - report them to the moderators or administrators and they will follow it up. But you must have real proves. In your words i read that you have these proves - so the only consequence is that you see the moderators and administrators as part of the problem. That they don't do their job by any reason and therefore help these cheaters. In opposite to that I have learned that the mods and admins sorted all problems out very fast and effective - when i reported any sort of problems to them. Walther

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12368&Form.ShowMessage=1365310

The fact is people use multi ids to make problems and it has been proven several times so I don't get your point. I have reported this problem several times and the admins have taken action, so again what is your point? The proof is the problem still exists and the admins have not found an answer to solving it. Does that mean they are not doing their respective jobs? No it does not. Does the problem still infect this site? Yes it does. I have remained consistent in my to approach this problem and now I am the problem? Telling lies that I have multi ID's at RR is just plain bull. I disagree that multi ID's are not the problem. Multi ID's is the problem here if you could only use one ID, then the fact is no one could use them to do harm to others plain and simple. I really don't think you can count on people not using multi id's in a responsible way obviously if you look at the problems that is caused by having them. You made a good suggestion that the people misusing the multi id's should be hung out in public I think that would be a good deterrent for others not to wrongfully use them unfortunately I think you would run into a law suit as well. Pointing fingers does not make the problem go away. If you read the thread that Christie started a long time ago you can see that this has been a problem for a long time and my approach back then is the same as it is now. Can you say the same? Obviously if you read that thread both you and DJ had different feelings on the subject back then. I remain consistent in my approach and feelings on this issue it is easy to see. Again if you don't like me personally I can live with that. But again the problem still is here isnt it? :O)

Ok... this discussion has been going round and round for a little while. Time to move on :)