I look back on the days when Curious Labs were the major whipping boy and DAZ could do no wrong, would never do any wrong in some people's eyes, and I wonder - when did this start to change? (Or are they still "the golden ones" to a Renderosity faction?). :(

Hello Everyone,

I wish that I could have been online over the weekend to help the DAZ moderators address this as the topic began, but that just wasn't possible for me this last weekend. I have to say that all of us at DAZ have learned after much hardship :) that it is not in our best interest to make Friday releases, so we have not for quite some time. This last Screamdesign email that everyone's talking about was actually the second in a series that we've prepared for that particular list of web surfers. The first was sent out on Thursday, March 18th.

DAZ has never offered any third party images to anyone, the only images that have been offered to the Screamdesign users are those on the DAZ|Original product pages (btw, Mehndi, your Stephanie 1.0 popup images were removed ages ago last I heard, so no worries there ;) ), we also excluded any and all gallery images.

Here's an overview as to why DAZ is giving the public permission to grab DAZ|Original product page images and do as they please with them. The prime reason being to serve as an incentive to bring in new customers to our online store. Most people in business know that it's easier to make a current customer base more active than it is to find new customers. Well, DAZ has been working hard over the past few quarters to get all of you a bit more active, but we're also working hard at enlarging our community. Creating a LightWave compatible version of DAZ|Mimic is part of the latter. And so is beginning to get a new base of image-fanatics familiar with images that can be created with DAZ products. We have seen many posts that said we didnt have permission to give PA images away. It's important to understand that DAZ has never assumed permission and that we would never do anything of this magnitude with products that we didn't own 100%.

We do realize that the Screamdesign newsletter had a bad typo and that one part of the newsletter was mislinked. We've corrected this for our next ScreamDesign newsletter, and are making the distinction between DAZ and third party products much more clear. We'll also be activating a "Clip-Art" category tomorrow that we've been preparing which will be where all Screamdesign traffic will be directed. DAZ will make it very clear that any other images taken without permission is not allowed and that they do so at their own legal risk.

Another thing that we've shared with several of our PA's (Published Artists) is just how successful this little campaign has been even after it's only just begun. The DAZ servers hit some of their highest traffic stats ever this past week. It's been made clear to us that lots of people are interested in what's available on the DAZ site. Of course, we would never force any of our artists to participate in this vertical strategy, but we will do our part to help share how successful this campaign turns out to be with them. We'd be surprised if not more merchants see the advantage of this idea and join those who become a part of this and gain the extra exposure for their products.

Most of our Published Artists sell their items through DAZ because we are able to produce higher revenue per product than many of our competitors. Recently, our marketing efforts have concentrated on increasing awareness as much as sales. This is in order to begin preparing new customers to place purchases at DAZ. Marketing to new customers is a long and often tricky process. Many companies start relationships with potential customers by giving out a sample of their products; Mrs. Fields gives bits of cookies, attorneys offer free initial consultations, and we even offer a free model each week. Somebody that has never used Poser is not going to immediately go out and buy Victoria and another $50 worth of accessories just from seeing one colorful newsletter. We have to develop a relationship with these potential customers and we feel that this strategy greatly aids us in this challenge.

We all know that the images used in our products are a just a fraction of the images that can be produced using the 3D items. We feel that these images are also good samples to give away to potential customers. By getting these people in the habit of using DAZ images, it's hoped that they will eventually find themselves wishing they could just modify the pose slightly, or adjust the perspective, or expression, etc. Once they get to this point, DAZ|Studio will allow them to easily make the leap from being a simple clip-art user to becoming a fledgling 3D-artist.

Anyway, I hope that this helps clarify the campaign that many of you are just hearing about second hand, once we have our next Screamdesign newsletter finished, I'll reply to this thread with a link to it so that all interested can see first hand just how we're conducting this campaign.

Thanks for your time, sorry if I was too long-winded. :)

Steve Kondris
DAZ Productions, Inc.

.

Steve, Your argument for this particular campaign is good business, however, "making the distinction between DAZ and third party products much more clear" is not going to protect your broker's images. Saying DAZ meant well is all good and fine, but what is the company doing to protect its brokers? Although scripts like right-click and source-code-protection are not perfect and can be circumvented, they will be a first line prevention and legal warning to ScreamDesign customers that broker's images are not part of the clip-art deal. Until a right-click and source code protection script is put in place, DAZ has opened the gate to copy all of the images at the store. It's simple human nature to be greedy: a percentage of your customers will not take the time to notice what images belong to DAZ and not a broker. Another percentage will notice and simply ignore the difference with the excuse that s/he miss-read the advertisement. Good intentioned or not, this money-making campaign has the potential to be a serious liability for DAZ. I suggest deeds, not words, to correct this gross mistake.

Steve - I think there were initially three distinct problems with what's happened. If you'll bear with me. The first is the apparent "mistakes" in the web page (and e-mailed newsletter copy, from the sound of it). Weekend Confusion makes its unwelcome return :( The second is with the actual "promotion" - with brokers of yours perhaps having concerns that this will have an effect to reduce their sales and certainly increase the perception that copying images from the net to do what you will with them is "OK". The third is with the way DAZ seems to have gone about this (which seemes rushed and ill-conceived to the point that errors like #1 were made in the first place - not a sign of a well-considered plan!). Issue #1 is purely and simply DAZ's fault. Issue #2 may or may not be cured by brokers being made aware of the actual thoughts and plans (although to be honest it isn't exactly rocket science - from what I can see we DAZ customers at large know the same now as we did over the weekend, and it doesn't take a great thinker to see the potential ramifications in all sorts of directions). Issue #3... issue #3 is probably increasing as DAZ mods/staff/whatever repeat what FEELS like "As soon as we've managed to educate our brokers to the point where they 'get it' they will all realise that we're doing a really good and clever thing, and this is all a lot of silly fuss over nothing". Please note I'm not saying that anyone has SAID that, just that it's an impression that's been coming over (perhaps moreso on the DAZ forum). DAZ has been, in bits and pieces, gathering a reputation for feeling somewhat superior to everyone else. By which I mean EVERYONE - customers, brokers, film studios...EVERYONE! This situation seems to be a dirty great steaming pile of PR badness adding significantly to that kind of reputation. IMHO it's never good to be compared to Microsoft in terms of high-handed business practises :( Cliff Bowman

Linking to a specific Clip Art section is a vast improvement though.

Hi Steve, You all missed one. You can have her though. Perhaps it will help bring in more sales to Jim Burton, which would be a blessed outcome to all this mess. Suppose someone decides they REALLY need a nice French Maid render for their website and newsletter about Kinky French Maids. Sure, they would LOVE to adjust the pose, lighting, perspective, etc. However, when they add it all up, and discover it would cost $233.80 just to minimally achieve this goal, not to mention the learning curve involved, my belief is that they will settle for MY french maid render as is, and not quibble over pose, lighting, and perspective ;p 119.00 Poser Artist/Poser4 29.95 Stephanie 1 34.95 Stephanie Texture Maps (Hi Res) 29.95 French Maid by Jim Burton 19.95 San Francisco Hair by Jim Burton Total: 233.80 I think the quote from you below proves my point. {{{{{"Somebody that has never used Poser is not going to immediately go out and buy Victoria and another $50 worth of accessories just from seeing one colorful newsletter...." Steve Kondris}}}}} With all due respect for what you are saying further in the quote below, allow me to present to you that it may turn out to be just the opposite of what you are suggesting in this best case scenario and that the costs will outweigh the urge to get creative. {{{{{"By getting these people in the habit of using DAZ images, it's hoped that they will eventually find themselves wishing they could just modify the pose slightly, or adjust the perspective, or expression, etc." Steve Kondris}}}}} Also, we all already HAVE been reading about this First Hand. The link provided above took us directly to the "newsletter" that precipitated this crises. It is not a second hand rumor we are going on, not hearsay. It is us actually reading what was sent out to the Scream Design membership and making up our own minds.

You're forgetting Daz Studio will be free, so they don't need to buy Poser Artist. ;)

Well... being a breeder of birds, I don't count chickens before they hatch! ;) So right now, the only way to get a nice French Maid render is to buy at the very least, Poser Artist :)

I'm glad thay've taken up the idea of a seperate clipart section. I am slightly worried by concepts like: {{{{{"By getting these people in the habit of using DAZ images, it's hoped that they will eventually find themselves wishing they could just modify the pose slightly, or adjust the perspective, or expression, etc." Steve Kondris}}}}} I think one of the concerns could be phrased as: "By getting these people in the habit of downloading images for free, it's likely that they will eventually find all the images they could ever want on the Internet (including but not limited to DAZ broker images) and discover that they never NEED to buy a graphic image or related product." When you try and train a dog, you have to be careful that you're training it to do the right thing. If you're going to try and treat people the same way, IMHO you need to be doubly careful that you plan things through and have a carefully constructed plan with as much forethought as possible. This initiative does not immediately come across as a well-thought-out carefully planned strategy :( Cheers, Cliff Bowman

The argument brought up about users being trained to only search for free things and never make a purchase is the same one that often rages in business surrounding the idea of sample marketing at all. The simple fact that DAZ gives away a free model each week, which is worth quite a bit more than a single image, no matter how simple of a model it is, means that DAZ is satisfying the needs of many thousands of people and taking away their need to place a purchase. We have thousands of emails from people that have registered to get our weekly freebies but that have never once placed a purchase on our store. So, why do we offer it at all? Because the positive outways the negative for us here. And it's the same with many other proven marketing strategies. There are people that will never place purchases no matter what they do or do not track down for free, just like there are people that will never pay for software but only look for cracks. But, again you take reasonable measures to make sure such things are protected without hurting your paying customers and you just know that you need to produce an extra 10% to cover the losses inherent to your industry. We'll be launching the clip-art category soon and we'll be clear in our communication with the Screamdesign customers about where they can take images and where they cannot and the legal ramifications if they don't follow the guidelines set forth. Steve Kondris DAZ Productions, Inc.

SKondris: {{{{{about users being trained to only search for free things and never make a purchase ... why do we offer it at all? Because the positive outways the negative for us here...we'll be clear in our communication with the Screamdesign customers about where they can take images and where they cannot}}}}} I thought it'd be surprising that DAZ hadn't realised they be fostering the bad as well as the good, but wasn't sure - DAZ have done quite a lot that has surprised me. I'm well aware of how effective a loss-leader marketing policy can be - and so I'm sure are the various groups (including DAZ) that have benefitted from such techniques to the detriment of my wallet ;) I'm glad you're happy that the positive results of this will be to your benefit by more than the negative aspects will affect DAZ, but really wish that "clear communication" could have been part of the original plan :) Cliff

"So, I THINK my standpoint on the idea of "Instant Art" nowadays is somewhat mellowed - I don't think that software that makes a job easier without having to spend years learning that software is "blatantly a bad thing", I think it's mostly down to who has the creativity to produce and who is a talentless hack producing join-the-dots trash." - Who3D

Step 1: Download Daz Studio. Step 2: Buy Daz content. Step 3: Buy prepackaged scene and load with content from 2) Step 4: Buy prepackaged poses from RMP [prebroken in shins and forearms], apply to content Step 5: Hit [Render] Step 6: Add gaussian blur in Photoshop Step 7: Post to gallery and make Hot20 with 47 "Oh wow! Yer a GAWD! Best ever!" comments from adoring fans. Instant art. Sorry, I just posted the "Reader's Digest Condensed Ironbear" up above, Cliff. I figured that most people who know know the poser galleries can fill in Steps 1-7 on their own. My bad. ;) Nothing in what you listed really addresses that trend, although a lot of what you posted does apply to people who make the effort to go beyond the "Buy stock content and mix and render" cliche. May not be what he intended, but Bryan's comment seemed indicative of an approach that will foster the Step 1-7 technique, just as the clip art sideline will probably encourage the "right click grab content from web" mentality. "Another thing that we've shared with several of our PA's (Published Artists) is just how successful this little campaign has been even after it's only just begun. The DAZ servers hit some of their highest traffic stats ever this past week." - Steve Kondris Traffic stats and click throughs are cool, but it's "visit and buy" that wil be the measure of wether you're attracting customers, or just browsers and image grabbers, ne? > "Anyway, I hope that this helps clarify the campaign that many of you are just hearing about second hand, once we have our next Screamdesign newsletter finished, I'll reply to this thread with a link to it so that all interested can see first hand just how we're conducting this campaign." - Steve Kondris

I'm going to echo Mehndi: we've been going by what we've read first hand, not second hand. If the first hand information on yours and ScreamDesigns site is either incomplete to draw accurate conclusions from, or misleading, that's the fault of the copywriter, not the copy reader.

Ironbear: Sorry, I just posted the "Reader's Digest Condensed Ironbear" up above, Cliff. I figured that most people who know know the poser galleries can fill in Steps 1-7 on their own. My bad. ;) ============= Yup, tho I didn't number it in my head. I was also doing my best neither to attack nor defend DAZ (I've defended them too much in the past and regretted it). However the "Instant Art" aspect is already here - as you point out, look at the galleries sometime! DAZ are (mostly) in the business of selling content - so they obviously want to be able to provide as much of everybody's scenes as possible, if they can pursaude us to buy the components in a paint-by-numbers style. I think if any clarification were needed it would be towards what aspect shocked/concerned you - that DAZ are making it easier to produce "Instant Art" in the same way those various advances over the years I mentioned, or that they're actively fostering that kind of attitude (a very different thing which I don't have any comment on). Either way I expect a lot of people will produce the equivalent of "my son, toothpaste on his lips, and a huge T-Rex glove puppet on is arm first thing in the morning" photos rather than "wow"... but that some of them will end up making a few "wow" images among their collection :) Cheers, Cliff

Hmmm this is crazy. I knew Scream Design long before they were affiliated with DAZ and matter of factly way before they were Scream Design. Originally, they were a warehouse for original web art and did customised and very elaborate web pages. How they ever became associated with DAZ is beyond me. Shrugs. Am I reading into this correctly, that they are offering folks the opportunity to use other artists' images for whatever they like? Just amazing. I can hardly believe it.

Not exactly. I understood they meant that only Daz Original images were to be used as Clip Art. However, due to poor editing of their newsletter, some may have read it differently.

Poor editing AND sloppy linking. If you are invited to take what you want and you click on the part of the link which takes you to the front page, you might indeed feel that the entire place is up for grabs. One more point to consider... those vouchers which can only be used for DAZ original products... how many forum posts have there been by regular and loyal scour-the-marketplace customers who can't discern which is an original and which is a brokered product? If a regular customer can't make that distinction, a newbie will never see it... especially if they are taking, not buying where it would show up in their carts. To further confuse the matter, stuff which is brokered as separate items gets bundled into an original item. (IIRC, this has just happened with MilCat and High Fantasy items and who knows what else.) This, too, is indefensible. Carolly

Okay, here's the link to our latest Screamdesign newsletter: Screamzine 3_31_04 As we stated, there were errors in the original newsletters, but that has been corrected. Thanks, Steve PS: the clip-art category will be going live ASAP tomorrow morning, but we're currently some server weirdness so we can't update that category to be live at this very moment, though the link will still work for Screamdesign users.

Better ad, but still no copy protection on any other images on the site. At least say there are plans to protect DAZ 3rd party merchants from clip art theft. Or now that the ill conceived ad is corrected, DAZ just does not care how many other images are stolen because their clip art doesn't have what the customer wanted?

It may turn out that technical copyright protection techniques have issues/drawbacks that are considered more of a nuisance to legitimate customers than the minimal protection is worth. Still not defending DAZ, but while I dislike copyright theft I loathe copyright protection being used as a reason for making legitimate users lives harder. Most copy-protection schemes throughout history have had that effect on some proportion of the buying public :(

There's at least 1 error in this new newsletter. :D "category in the Daz online store and you'll FIND a huge selection..." The Conditions of use are clearer though.

"There's at least 1 error in this new newsletter." Yeah, but finding problems in DAZ newsletters is like shooting fish in a barel. With a canon.

You are saying "use in projects at work" and then saying "no commercial use" at Daz. Why will you NOT say "no commercial use" on the newletter itself. What if the reader doesn't use you category after last week and just browses from their bookmark to the front page? If the clip art is useless to professionals you need to stop pretending this is for professionals. ---------------------------------------------- So basically this stuff is just for personal webpages. Loophole: I make a Vicki texture out of all the nice Vicki texture popups and add as a background pic on my webpage. ------------------------------------------ Basically I think Ad pages should NOT be clip art. A clip art category is a fine idea if peeps want to submit images to it, but using ad images is a mistake. Lots of popups contain detailed elements that can be extracted for freebie textures. There are skin, sample, eyeball, brows, lace, edge, trim, zipper, denim, popups that are great freebie resouce material. Afterall if the photoshop people are being allowed to use them for roalty free projects , then the 3d people should too right? I am not trying to upset Daz or cause trouble, but someone must be looking down the road to the disaster ahread if noone there will.

They are doing a Clip Art category. Now they need to explain if people can volunteer stuff for it, or if they'll buy stuff for it, etc.

So I can take this image and make a seamless demin square and give it away free on my webpage if it is like a background or something?

Our clip-art category is now live: Clip Art Category As you can see, we have strong notices at the top and bottom of our cateogry regarding the usage of these images as well as the other images on the DAZ website. As for your last post Anton regarding the jean texture and redistributing it, that is clearly prohibited by both the footer info on the Clip-Art category, in the newsletter where its says "The only restriction is that you do not redistribute these images to anyone else", and also in the terms of use for the entire Screamdesign website that all users agree to prior to having access to the Screamdesign content and is clearly linked to in the screamdesign newsletter. And perhaps the most important data point is that this is a category that only contains DAZ|Originals and items volunteered directly by Published Artists themselves. Thanks, Steve

You clearly don't understand. Hopefully someone else can explain better what I was trying to. Good luck with it.

Maybe if you explained exactly what you are really trying to say. However it seems fairly obvious that you can not redistribute the Daz images so no, you can't take it, make a tile, and give it away as a background.

Attached Link: http://secure.daz3d.com/shop.php?op=itemdetails&item=1105

Feel free to grab any images found on the products pages listed within this category. These images have been made available by their creators for use as web or low-res clip-art and may be used for any personal clip-art use.

IMPORTANT: Commercial use of these images is strictly prohibited. These images may not be repackaged or resold in any way, shape, or form. By saving copies of the images in the products listed herein, you voluntarily demonstrate your agreement to these terms. It is strictly prohibited to use images from any items outside this specific "Clip Art" category. Violation of these terms will be pursued legally with all due diligence by DAZ Productions, Inc.

According to these warnings and statements it is totally within my rights to snag an image, and use it to write tutorials for people using these images to create thier own textures, using this method, those people would never have to go to DAZ to purchase anything and yet still own DAZ quality textures for any and every poser model they already own...

I shrunk this particular image down to spare you guys, but hopefully it'll show you what I'm getting at...The origional is 512x512 just like your high res maps and will render in poser just as clearlly as they will...The image used to create this texture can be found at the link, it's a freebie so posting the link should be ok...
I won't even get into how nice some of your close up detailed pop ups are for other textures in your store are...Full body textures, and clothing textures could easilly be used in this manner...

Perhaps stating that the clip art images can not be altered from thier origional form and posted to the web will make it a bit safer...Personally I like the clip art idea for drawing in more users, but it clearlly needs to be thought out a tad more...

The image...

Caly you missed a post. Scoll up one or two more and just read that one. --------------------------------------------------------- Okay so This is a seamless clipart web square for web backgrounds. Since all web pics and be clicked this is not considered distribution right? I mean this is what people are meant to use this stuff for right? I am not selling this but giving it away so I can do pages of these seamless tiles right? After all they are royalty free clipart, not commercial, and I am not redistributing or selling the original. If this is a problem can I just call this a "gallery" image? According to everythign I read both what Merrilyn did and what I did are allowed.

PS: Clip Art above is from new Clip art category and is a Daz original

"I understand that if I purchase a Developer License, I agree to use the Vault items on my own site and the sites of my clients. However, I will NOT include the images or content from the Vault in an image library for resale or redistribution, without DAZ Productions, Inc.'s express prior written approval." This particular quote from the Scream site itself disturbs me a bit...According to this statement the images can be used commercially if the purchase a licence to do so...but who profits from that purchase? Whole new can of worms there...

How much does this license cost? I don't recall the newsletter sent to the Brokered Artists... er I mean "Published Artists" saying anything about licenses being available for purchase when the newsletter was trying to persuade us to give our art to be used as clipart.

What a total cock-up!
Apart from diluting the long-standing Black and White area of image copyright and use in general, on Poser Forums, to a dirty Grey, Daz have also given any would be image thief a strong case of plausible deniability if caught.
All the culprit has to do is produce the first Scream Design Newsletter, deny he received further updates correcting the position and claim he was acting in good faith. Any judge is going to take this into account and punish Daz (and the ripped-off-artists they host) because they should have got it right in the first place and are responsible for confusing the poor picture-thief.
The lure of the fast mighty dollar makes fools of so many sensible people, to quote ancient Roman saying "festina lente" (hurry slowly).

DAZ is still selling, to their licensed customers, what does not belong to them. If this was real property, it would be called conversion, and the law would stomp pretty heavily on it. Since it is intellectual property, it is a lot harder to defend ownership rights, especially with a middleman facilitating the theft. Furthermore, they are not even telling all the brokered artists what they are doing with the images created to sell product. BTW, have all of them even been notified yet... are is awareness still filtering through word-of-mouth? If DAZ is making money from selling clip-art rights, DAZ ought to be paying royalties to the artists whose work has been taken. If not a monthly stream (which might be hard to compute, based upon clicks), then a one-time royalty fee for each piece for right to use as clip art. The artist can then decide whether or not to sell that right. This ought to have been thought through in advance, and reality-checked. It ought to have been discussed out-of-house with a few brokers (not to sell them on the advantages but just to guage their honest reactions to the plan). The newsletter ought to have been proofread and all links checked BEFORE being sent on the winds of fate. (Looking at it in html would have revealed the broken links to the wrong areas.) A specific approved designated area with full legalese ought to have been set up before the newsletter was released... not a week later upon prodding and pitchforking. AND some effort to protect the non-approved images ought to have been set up first. Saying "don't take the gallery images" isn't going to be enough to save them... or DAZ. Given the Nemo, Indiana Jones, and LOTR stuff on the site, it is obvious that DAZ isn't worried about anybody's copyrights except their own. Pity. They used to be an admirable company. Carolly

Carolly: from Steve Kondris' post above "And perhaps the most important data point is that this is a category that only contains DAZ|Originals and items volunteered directly by Published Artists themselves."

By this point it doesn't matter what we say in the forum list. DAZ representatives have basically told us all to suck it up, what's done is done and no further protection will be offered to the brokered artists beyond the written notification to, 'don't touch'.

RHaseltine, A week too late. Putting up a screen door a week after the blizzard starts may offer the illusion of security, but little in the way of protection for those domiciled under the roof. I repeat: have ALL the brokers been notified that their rights were sold out from under them? Carolly

..

Attached Link: http://screamdesign.daz3d.com/aboutus/conditions.html

I decided to investigate a little bit further and found that DAZ is tenaciously protective of its copyrights (no surprise there... and I wish that they respected the copyrights of others (such as New Line Productions, Pixar, Lucasfilm) just as strongly). On the ScreamDesign Mission page, they claim 600,000 customers. No wonder the DAZ main site experienced such a wonderful increase in hits after that first newsletter went out! That's a lot of kids to set loose in the candy store. Apparently to use the clip art on your own site, you must pay for a personal license. To use it on a client's site, you must pay for a developer's license. In addition to payment, you are supposed to give them a credit line. It doesn't say any of this in the newsletters. You have to dig for the Conditions of Use page. So, are any of the brokers getting paid for the use of their art? Furthermore, if the broker holds the copyright to the promo image, why is DAZ getting the credit line? ******************************** I understand and agree that international copyright laws protect the entire contents of this Vault. The owners of the copyrights are DAZ Productions, Inc., its affiliates, and/or other third party licensors. In other words, I cannot include these images in my copyright or claim to have created them myself. Minor modifications such as a color change or the addition of text merely creates a derivative of the original work, which would still mean that DAZ Productions, Inc.. retains copyright over the derivative, as well as to the original underlying work. I will provide a credit line if I use any of these files, artwork, or objects in this Vault, or a derivative thereof. I understand that if I purchase a Personal License, I agree to use the images on one personal or one business site only. I understand there is a minimum $500 fee payable to DAZ Productions, Inc. if this rule is violated. Further, I understand that I will also be responsible to pay for any damages caused to DAZ Productions, Inc. as a result of the violation. I understand that if I purchase a Developer License, I agree to use the Vault items on my own site and the sites of my clients. However, I will NOT include the images or content from the Vault in an image library for resale or redistribution, without DAZ Productions, Inc.'s express prior written approval. ******************************

"You have to dig for the Conditions of Use" One of Cliff's all-time pet peeves with DAZ - regardles sof the topic, you seem to have to dig and dig and dig before you get to the actual situation :( Cheers, Cliff

"One of Cliff's all-time pet peeves with DAZ - regardles sof the topic, you seem to have to dig and dig and dig before you get to the actual situation"

And if push comes to shove, and a copyright infringement case goes to court, what is a judge going to make of that!
"confusion of the plaintiff;" "legal ambiguity;" "misleading EULA (deliberate or not);" etc. etc.

'nuff said

"CASE LOST!"
With implications for all future copyright defence!

Cliff, I used to defend them. Not any more. One event, or even a couple of events I can excuse, thinking that they are good-hearted and hard-working, if a bit prone to blundering at the keyboard. But this has been a series of events over the years with an increasing frequency (much like an imminent volcano) showing a certain oblivious mindset. It is better to watch a train wreck from somewhere to the side, but one can't avoid feeling emotionally involved when you know the people on the train. I don't know where the greed comes from (perhaps insecurity at maintaining a viable company), but they have ripped off too many artists I care about, and this whole hypocritic thing about copyrights shows a really ugly side to them. All the comparisons to Microsoft are apt. Microsoft smothered the game developing community back when they were launching Win95. The GDC had to put up banners saying that Microsoft hadn't bought them: it was THAT bad, and the minions were THAT pervasive. Microsoft made it so that you had to have their operating system to work or play, and their own software took advantange of internal hooks. DAZ is doing the same thing with content and DAZ|Studio. They want to own the entire hobbyist niche (load and render - snort!) and don't care who they trample or how many rights they violate in order to shove everybody else out of the market. Pure unadulterated greed. And as lacking in forethought as bacteria in a petri dish. Carolly

"I used to defend them. Not any more." Well, this is a sad day. I'm seeing that phrase, or similar, more and more often recently, and AFAICS DAZ still don't even recognise the common thread that holds all the comments together. I'd like to say at this junture that DAZ have recognised the train they're on and are changing trains even as we speak. That they don't admire the way that Microsoft tends to stifle innovation from others in the form of parties too small to seriously call "competition". That they have a "moral center" that isn't based upon avarice, which is even now grounding them back into decent and above all thoughtful behaviour. I'd like to - but I couldn't do anything of the kind with a straight face and a clear conscience. It's a hard life trying to shout "stop pithing in the wind, DAZ!" when you're downwind from them :( Cheers, Cliff