TIME LIMITED CONTENT THINK about it. Think hard. Think about Microsoft trying to get everybody into the position where they are leasing a time-based OS and HAVE to upgrade the license at fixed intervals, rather than whenever we feel we need to and can afford to. (Yes, I'm still running WIN98, and Bill Gates hates my kind.) Think about all your absolutely essential applications expiring if you don't cough up enough money on a regular schedule. That would hurt, huh? Now think about buying a figure, planning to use it later... like most of us who splurge when stuff is on sale or newly introduced. Think about 13 months later when you go to actually use that figure... only to find an expiry notice and a request for more money to extend the license. If the Daz|Studio content has those time-limited hooks built in already, is this the plan for the future? We won't buy a figure but only the right to use it within a set time period, if possible, and if not, tough patooties? Wanting to upgrade every year is bad enough for the wallet, but being forced to relicense in order to use what we've already bought is iniquitous! It is ALREADY built into this program. They wouldn't have spent the time and energy into coding time limits into the content if they had no intention of using expirations as a way to keep the cash flowing. This sort of licensing is used in other industries, so the concern isn't far-fetched... but those purchases are by professionals, not hobbyists, and they usually have an immediate need for the license. There are a lot of hooks, and not all of them are in the software. Carolly

Don't worry - D|S' rendering engine 3Delight will expire before your content gets the chance to. The current release of 3Delight will expire on Oct 1st 2004.

This is not the final version of the app, but BETA. It's not abnormal for Beta versions to expire and their content. This is so when they release the newest version, everyone will be on the same page. You are aware that DAZ plans to keep the base application free, yes?

Another thing about the time limited stuff, you might think that you are getting a bargain and then find out a month later that the bargain doesnt work anymore... I wouldnt buy the base application as it is. The "great" open gl slows my computer down a lot and I don`t like the interface either. The problem with the program being "free" is that to make it work properly you will have to buy plugins for stuff. I still prefer poser 5, it has a few bugs still but some of the new features are great.

I wouldn't buy it as it is either. It's Beta, which means it's not done yet. Before I would make any kind of purchasing choices, I would want to see the final product.

I like seeing the development of this software, but I'm really not very fond of the interface. I wish some of the controls were a little more easy to use and didn't take up so much space.

.

.

markdc

I see time limited content as a way to allow modelers to offer "try-before-you-buy" versions of models like software. It doesn't have to be a negative thing.  

-Mark

Digital Criminals

It is a negative thing if a person also invests in an entire wardrobe and morphs, textures, etc. for a figure. Then they are held hostage to a vendor's income stream. Suppose that Vicky 4 base is free, but expires in 3 months? People buy 3 morph packs just to use her (sound familiar?), and 2-3 pose packs, $200 worth of clothes and hair... and in 3 months, they have to cough up more money or their entire investment in time, energy, and add-on products ALL goes down the drain, whether they have actually made a picture with Vicky 4 yet or not. They will resent it. They are being extorted. They will pay (for example) $20 to protect the $300 they have already spent, but they won't like it one teensy bit. When another 3 month's "payment due" notice flashes, they will grit their teeth. They might pay again. But at some point they will draw the line. People hold on to losing stocks because they hate to admit making an error, but eventually, they let go. If they have a half-dozen major figures, they might draw the line sooner. A few solid and well-heeled consumers who regularly throw out last year's model might not mind "leasing" for intervals. But this market? There is so much needed to build a scene that we have to build up our inventories of stuff and have to have it ready when we need it, even if it is months or years later. DAZ will determine through trial and error what the price point is for leasing, just like they've done with the Platinum Club. DAZ is being run by guys who understand profits and how to milk consumers. http://www.vmmg.net/ used to link to Bryan's page on making millions through marketing... but it looks like it finally embarrassed them: the link is broken. You can find his book at Amazon if you want to see how he thinks: "Million Dollar Computer Consultant", and Googling provides links to his articles. Among his recommendations is to regularly weed out the bottom 10-15% of clients, probably those who can't afford to keep up with regular milking. Time-limited content is just one more example of how to establish a cash flow. And since it has already been programmed into the software and into the newly-formatted content for that software, the hook has been set. In the mouth of the consumer. Carolly

hmm, I thought the D|S Base was only free as long as it was in Beta. Didn't know Daz had said yet if it would be free once the Beta stage was finished. Guess I'll have to check out the Daz Forums more often.

"DAZ Productions has a made a committment to keep the DAZ|Studio core application free to the public for as long as possible. In order for this to be possible, DAZ relies on the revenues generated by the purchase of content available in the DAZ online store. The more people that purchase regularly from DAZ, the more development that can be subsidized and the longer the DAZ|Studio core will remain free." That's from the Daz Daz Studio Tell-Ware Stradegy you can read it and the rest here: http://secure.daz3d.com/studio/ About the 'time limited content'. Try before you buy with a reg to unlock the full is a good stradegy, lots of software companies use it. As plugins or addons for Daz Studio come out having a limited 10 day time limited version would allow people to play before ya pay. Time limiting applications during beta testing is a normal operation. Keeps those doing beta testing using the most current version as bugs get squashed. IF, and I say IF Daz does have products with time limits for Daz Studio, EULA and info would be up front and a user would know about it. A licening agreement would have to be okayed etc.

Can someone please point out to me where it's been posted by someone at DAZ that states that D|S and all it's content is going always be time limited? I seem to have missed that. Carolly - what you are suggesting is business suicide. I would like to think they are not that dumb. If so, they will loose a lot of business really fast. If they do it, likely it will be as Machine Claw just posted and there are a lot of companies that do this. Quite successfully. But to make you have to pay to renew every few months? No, that won't work. They will have to state in advance (as Machine Claw stated) and you will know about this before going into it.

Can someone please point out to me where it's been posted by someone at DAZ that states that D|S and all it's content is going always be time limited? There is no direct announcement of that, but the standalonge 3Delight renderer (which D|S is using) has been time limited ever since, and I haven't seen any sign of a change here. And it doesn't appear to me like DAZ has the technical possibilities to change anything about 3Delight itself at all.

Carolly is actually dancing around something that's not a new concept to software, either, and while probably unlikely, isn't improbable nor suicide. DAZ has the single most commanding marketshare available for Poser content. That is a given, reliable base on which to expand. And expansion is the key element. D|S is the vehicle for that expansion. It will offer them not only an escape from the strict limitation of the Poser market (which is still rather small) and give them a greater opportunity to reach the additional content market that is still unproven but very possible. Most notably among this market is the Lightwave group, whose ties with DAZ are fairly well established. Furthermore, the Tell-Ware strategy is rather explicit, and DAZ really is committed to keeping the core program free via subsidizing through content revenue. What better way to ensure that content revenue stream than via time licensing -- which will occur. Lightwave and other programs have a user base that is not as heavily dependent on content as Poser is. And this form of "leasing" is an essential goldmine for any company. It would be unrealistic to assume that the prices for the content would remain the same through a lease model -- initial resistance to the scheme would likely result in a low fee that would generate revenue continusously over time. Now it is a fairly standard practice to time limit Beta and other development code -- this is in no way unusual. But, as pointed out strongly, this is still a Beta. Until such time as it actually hits 1.0, EVERYTHING is strictly speculation, as that Beta period could be indefinite, and until it's final, even the money grubbers won't have clue. Me, personally, I dislike the interface, I find OpenGL preview nice but absolutely no better than any other scheme, and I happen to find the thought That I'm going to have to invest in 250 dollars of hardware just to preview something cleanly sorta bugs me. But I'm cheap, and refuse to go with the latest and greatest unproven stuff -- holdover from sysadmin work, I guess, lol

Attached Link: http://secure.daz3d.com/studio

As for theories of complete and utter world domination via D|S, (rolls eyes) I really feel the best thing I can say is just to be patient; wait and see. Maybe DAZ will try to put a strangle-hold on every market possible and drive itself bankrupt in the process, who knows? Or, (and IMHO this is much more likely), DAZ might just turn out to be the nice company that people used to talk about not too long ago. Alas, only time will tell. The nice thing about all this is that DAZ is slowly bringing another option to the community. The power of choice resides with the community, as it always has. And we at DAZ hope that the community realizes that the community is what the community makes itself into, not what DAZ or any other independent organization wants it to be, no matter how much market power people theorize that they may have. The consumers make or break the vendors, not the other way around.

Oh, and here's some more good news: A new build is very imminent, along with new content.

Steve Kondris
DAZ Productions, Inc.

Attached Link: http://www.sparkchaser.net/blog.html

Balanced and thoughtful. Much better than some of the shrill and paranoid anti-DAZ rantings seen elsewhere.

Sounds like Peng has a grip on the real world. Keep up
the good coverage!

I just hope that with all the coming "The GIRL" hoopla
that they release Dudley's GREAT Woody! Maybe as "Beach Blanket Bimbo" or Look's Like "Gigette Goes Hawaiian".

BTW- Notice that "The GIRL" looks like former Mouseketeer
Annette Funicello? I think she will be ideal for Summertime Surf Movie themes! (HINT to DAZ!)

ehh, it's simple... D|S content can be exported to Poser = the nice company that people used to talk about. D|S content can't be exported to Poser = SOB company that wants to split the community in two and can go to hell. Time will tell which it is & I'm waiting with an open mind.

Farside, its just not that simple, in order to create better joints, DAZ is going to have to create a new format. the falloff zone format is just too limited, it is a format that has been completely abandoned by high end animation software in favor of Weight mapping, which basicly is a map of the points on a mesh for each bone which allows the program to know exactly which points will bend with a given bone and how much the bend is affected by that bone. while it is not impossible to convert falloff zones to a really rough aproximation of weight maps, going the other direction would require an amount of flexibility in falloff zones which just doesnt exist.

it's probably less than 5% of Poser users that would first, have computers powerful enough to take advantage of all that... and second, really see any need for that level of sophistication considering that most Poser users are hobbiest that have no real interest in high end programs (at least not until they cost less than $200). That's why I fear Daz is splitting the community in two and both will be more vulnerable to failing than the greater whole ever was.

I disagree, every time a new figure comes out the community asks for better joints. The limitations of poser joints have been reached in my opinion. as far as computers being able to handle that level of sophistication, I dont think that has been proven at all, those of us who do not want to be shackled to backward compatability would applaud a new system which would allow for more versitility particularly at no cost. and a binary system takes less resources then the current text based poser system. the fact that most poser processes use 100% of most peoples systems doesnt mean that someone cant come up with a more efficiant system that can do more with less.

I just hope that with all the coming "The GIRL" hoopla that they release Dudley's GREAT Woody! Maybe as "Beach Blanket Bimbo" or Look's Like "Gigette Goes Hawaiian". Oh Jeez, when I saw the comparison to Funicello in the Poser Forum, I said something very similar. LOL, great minds think alike? I wasn't ripping off your idea. :-) I'm really looking forward to that Woody model.

weight mapping is a much better solution to jointing, and is not system intensive -- or at least, no more so than poser's present format. It's also much more versatile and adaptable. It reduces greatly the issue with the skin areas that frequently bend poorly (such as inner elbows), and when combined with a somewhat more developed boning system and morphs, allows you to achieve a much greater level of realism in motion. If your computer can run poser, it can run this. And as for being complicated, it's not -- it is as transparent to most users as the current system is -- and merchants will like it better.

But how will ordinary people make clothes and figures? Will they have to buy a program from daz to do it, or will there not even be a program to make them. One of the best things about propack and poser 5 is that anyone can make a figure or clothes.

I would think it that it would depend upon what is inlucded in the base app itself. That may be a feature that will be available via a plugin. It may be that these decisions are not finalized yet.

Daz has stated that anyone who wants to create content (and has the other tools necessary, Modeling program, UV mapping program, Paint program)will have the tools available to them, to do so. A plug-in will likely be something along the lines of the setup room. Though I am hoping that they create plugins to export figures directly from the modelers, most of which use weight mapping and advanced boning setups already. It is going to mean learning new ways of doing things I am sure. but the added flexibilitiy, I believe will be worth it.

...

If CL would put more thought into the Poser program and not just keep trying to build the Queen Mary on an old raft there wouldn't even be an interest in a new program. I will keep watching the Das Studio and make up my mind about it AFTER it's out of beta. Marque

Attached Link: http://www.sparkchaser.net/blog.html

actually, I think it'll be a lot more expensive than just $1000 to get going for most. D|S base might be free but the plugin to model will be up to $500 as well I believe Daz said. Then there's the plugins that will be needed to bring D|S up to what Poser 5 can do since from what I've seen D|S base won't even totally match what Poser 4 can do. Personally I only have a Pentium 4 with 1GB RAM & a 32mb graphic card. This......... means........... Daz............ Studio............. moves............. very............ slowly.............. with............... even.............. one................ Vicky................ character.............. it ............. is................ almost............... totally................. useless. The good news is an ATI 250mb graphic card is only another $400.00 to help fix this problem. Then of course there's buying Vicky 4, and her various morph packs etc... AND the same clothing for V4 that you've already bought for V3 and V2. $1000 won't even begin to be enough for most.

actually DAZ has set no prices for any plugins. and has been very specific that they will not do for quite a while. frankly 500 per plugin I think is wildly high, but since they havn't said anything on the subject I wont comment further then that. And I have a computer of around same specs as you have stated and have gotten renders with figure clothing and backround that are at least as fast as P5 and quite nice in fact. what can I say Mileage will vary? If you are right about your figures then perhaps Studio will fail, but I wouldnt bet on it. ;)

"D|S base might be free but the plugin to model will be up to $500 as well I believe Daz said." I believe you're referring to the SDK, which is a tool that developers use, not modellers. As for graphics cards, you can pick up a GeForce 4 w/ 128MB of RAM on it for less than $50.00 - I did (and I use a P4 2.4GHz chip...) What kind of computer do you have? Sometimes an OEM will claim they're installing a Pentium 4 in a given model when in reality you end up with a Celeron (usually when the supply of P4 chips ran out that week), which runs ungodly slow at the same clock speed. There is also different FSB speeds (mine is @ 533MHz, but it can go up to 800, and as low as 333.) Lots of factors to consider in there sometimes... which is why I just buy the individual parts I need, assemble the whole mess, and get much better performance out of it. /P

"plugins", not "modellers" up there... feh. I suck. /P

lol Peng, you don't suck. you waddle. and swim really well for a latin flightless bird...

" But how will ordinary people make clothes and figures? Will they have to buy a program from daz to do it, or will there not even be a program to make them. One of the best things about propack and poser 5 is that anyone can make a figure or clothes. " - xantor The same will apply to D|S, hon. Think about it. DAZ really wants D|S to succeed. They will do whatever they can to get it into the hands of everyone on the face of the planet who might have a decent enough wallet to be able to spend some cash with them. Which is NOT a bad thing. They are a business. If they didn't want that, then yes, I would be scared. Very scared. Since they want it to succeed, they have to plan for that success properly. First step -- the plug-ins architecture. Not only does it make good financial sense down the road, it makes great sense interms of flexibility to meet the needs of the customer base. in short, a great idea. Second step -- make sure it works with what they have already. DAZ is lightwave centric as a company. That's god. Of all the user groups out there, Lightwave users are the ones most akin to Poser users, but they don't have quite as developed a marketplace as we do. So odds are pretty damned good that the Lightwave stuff will be first. But the SDK i the key ingredient. With it, everyone who makes programs will be able to quickly convert their favorite app over. Which means that Rhino will happen, that Truespace will happen, that Carrara will happen (hell, Eovia will do it themselves, most likely, lol), and Vue, and so forth. And if D|S has enough of a user base, or if DAZ can establish a strong enough working relationship with other companies, you might just see that functionality built into other programs when their new versions come out. Additionally, DAZ may not be the only place to offer those plugins. So I think that "regular folks" will be able to create content for D|S quite easily. It's important they do -- DAZ is NOT trying to corner the market on content creation. Although it does at times seem like they are trying to buy up all the old timers that are known to be sick of Poser...

Actually, Windows XP is time limited and will expire eventually. When M$ no longer supports XP (a few years into the future), you will no longer be able to reactivate XP should the need arise. Remember, P5 was limited to 3 or so reactivations... after which the software would be useless and/or worthless. [It's always a good idea NOT to buy trash or things that will become worthless... except of course a car]. This applies to any and all software that requires activation, so we were happy when CL gave them the boots. And unless the time based system is ultra-smart, if your clock changes or you have to reinstall your programs after a crash or virus attack... you could end up with early expire-ware. Because it's dumb, it cannot tell you had a hard drive failure; instead it logs that you're trying to steal more time off the clock. While "they" might have a solution as a quick call to tech support to reinitialize the timer... do you really want to call on behalf of your 3,000 model collection? And finally, these problems are placed upon you because you're a good, honest, paying customer. So, long after your XP has expired... you will still be able to run Win98.

"When M$ no longer supports XP (a few years into the future), you will no longer be able to reactivate XP should the need arise." That's what cracks are for. I'm not a fan of pirated stuff, but I do have a crack handy for the day when my legal copy of XP Pro decides to not activate itself anymore. ('course, once I can get a Linux version of a compositor, then XP will rapidly become irrelevant, and I won't need it for anything.) "So, long after your XP has expired... you will still be able to run Win98." Err, not if you can;t find 32-bit x86-based hardware anymore, or the drivers to support everything on it. (which is why I tend towards Linux and Open Source for my vital stuff - if ever I need to adapt an app to a whole new hardware environment, I only have to recompile from source and hammer at any sticky points that arise.) /P

DAZ is NOT trying to corner the market on content creation Not sure I completely agree with that, but only time will tell for sure. :-)

I know of a company (can't say which) that still runs DOS and Windows 3.1. I think the main reason is their business software still functions so I guess there's no need to upgrade OS or hardware.

Sigh ...i read half way through this forum post and got fed up i mean people get a grip here take a chill pill daz has stated in there D|S forum and lots of other places that the Daz|Studio program will remain Free and that they plan on makeing money from the Plugins made for it by selling them. the rendering engine is limited because daz has yet to buy a the rights for a final daz version the rendering engine is in beta and made by a diffrent company so it is time limited. The content is ONLY limited when it is in DEMO format! and to the person that talked about someone who gets a free version and then gets all kinds of stuff for it just to find out that they have to pay for the orignal model;...WELL DUH 1 if ya do something like that you are a bit STUPID! sorry that was a bit harsh but true you are always told ahead of time that in item is a demo release and that it is time limited if you then go and buy all kinds of products for it your a moron! you all seem to be gietting into a tizzy over this this is a BETA release the Final version will be well tested and made to our satasfaction that is why they are doing this beta testing this was if you dont like something about it dont just say "huff i dont like it ill never use it" if you do that then you have no right to complain at all!" you are suppose to go oveer to the bug submit thingie ant tell them what you like what you dont and what needsfixing you can also post it on the D|S forum at the daz3D site. if you arnt going to try to make this program the best it can be. then dont gripe about! i for one think it is comming along nice it gets better every release the gfx engine is beautiful i love the fact that in D|S when you move a morph dial you dont get jettery and it jumps from .005 to 55.000 like poser does and the fact that the transparencys are always there makes it so much easier to morph the hair and to see what it looks like when it is finnished without rendering the only complaint i have is when inporting a saved poser sceene the lights and camaras are all screwed up the lights are more like haveing 100 suns around your figure and it all looks black and none of the imported camaras work at all but i for one have brought this to the attention of daz and i do have a right to complaine lol just my 50 cents worth

Time is just too short and valuable to be working on things that will expire or will run for a limited time. If I choose to build a scene, I might take a break for awhile (other projects) and come back later to find all my hard work and creativity has expired.... but to each his own.

Another thing about the expiring stuff, people might not want to install things and have to uninstall them a short time later, and it is easy to uninstall certain figures or props now, but if your daz folder has hundreds of figures and props etc it wont be so easy.

Consider the $499 iPod that ran for a limited time (only 18 months) and then you had to throw them away. The rechargeable battery was sealed inside and was not user replaceable. But if you accidentally overcharged the battery for too long, you might find out really fast how 18 months can fly by. The only answer was to cough up another $499 to buy a new one (a corporate get rich quick scheme)... until several lawsuits later, Apple changed course and started offering a $99 replacement battery. Just mail in your iPod + $99 plus shipping and whenever we feel like, we'll mail it back to you with a new battery. A rechargeable battry should cost no more than $40... but with Apple, you pay extra for the apples.

d4500 has it correct. You'll still be able to find 32-bit x86 hardware in a decade (or two). Geeze, there are still Amiga computers (1989) and C64s (1981) running out there. There are people using 386 systems for various reasons (firewalls, robotics, etc.). But, running something like Win98 will soon become more difficult due to its limitations and the needs of newer software/hardware. If you want to run more recent software, you'll need an OS that can handle the bloat. ;) Also, what will you do when the smallest memory chip is 1GB and PC9600 TDR? As you sink into the stone age, everyone else will be completing full-length 3D CG movies in several days and you'll still be spending a week on a still image. - Yes, it's an arms race, I suppose...

One thing about DOS... there are very few virus writers slavering at the keyboard to bring down my old box. Now to get the CPU fan replaced so I can get it running again. (I have to take the dratted motherboard out... not an easy job with a migraine... so it has been sitting off to the side looking woeful instead of under the desk being useful.) I appreciate multiple levels of undo and being able to move the lights, however, I can also draw from scratch, and if civilization falls, I can make my own pigments and ink... and keep working. The computer is simply a tool. Maybe because I appreciate legacy and continuity and premanence, this time-limiting idea is all the more bothersome. The background to my fairymoth picture in the Gallery is made from some silver webby stuff I bought a decade ago. It isn't what I intended to use it for, but it was just right. I collect neat stuff when I see it, and use it when appropriate. I can't afford to open a file only to have a past-due sticker on it, so absolutely will not buy content with an embedded timer. Carolly

I agree, computers are tools. Very ubiquitous tools that will allow and are allowing us to do things never before possible. Sticking at a certain level of technology will not allow this continuous progress and at some point, you drop out of the possibilities by sticking to it. But, I also agree that time-limiting is a wretched idea. Don't worry, the problems discussed here will become relevant to the issue and may help to dissuade the use of it (one hopes). They will realize that our compulsion to have what we may need in the future because of the fear (if you can call it that) of its unavailability in the future is a main concern. How many times have we seen something interesting (software, models, book, whatever), but either could not afford it, hadn't the time, or had no immediate use? Then when the time was right, find out that it no longer exists, is no longer available. The time-limiting factor would mean that acquisition would be on a strictly 'need it now, return-on-investment' basis and sales will hopefully reflect the dismal approach (people with think a dozen times before even reaching for their wallets). Then we can get back to reality! ;)

As with all time expiration software, even if you have uninstalled the product, small trace files still reside on your PC. These secret files do nothing but loiter around your PC hard drive in hidden location and/or registry entries. The really smart ones lie outside of your OS (boot sector region) so you can't delete them. They store information about what you installed, when you installed it, how long you installed it and how many times you tried to run your expired software, etc. When I pay over $2,000 for a PC, I happen to own every inch of it. So I expect these spyware files to pay RENT or get EVICTED. And that's just the beauty of being a programmer.

OMFG your all still going on about this (rolls her eyes)

Time to move on to other things Poser Kiddies. i know i sure as hell have. i have better things to do than to read other people gossip, or opinions however You want to see it.