I've been reading polling comments (most of them months old) on Zygote's Victoria, and I'm amazed at how negative many of them are. Has the model been updated and improved recently? I ask because I just purchased her and am amazed at the quality (and attractiveness) of the model as opposed to other Poser figures. I can't imagine why anyone owning Victoria would work with anything else, especially with the number of excellent Victoria morphs available now for free download. Compared to Victoria, everything else looks (to me) like Barbie and Ken. Is my model superior to the original model, or is my thinking just WAY out of the mainstream?

She was originally released without morphs but I think that it is simply she doesn't look like the 18 year old barbie that a number of people like. I like her a lot though she does have a few limitations (Mostly file size for me).

In my experience Poser communities are very reactionary. It seems like this community in the last year has been dissolved and reformed 10 times. Nothing is ever perfect and she is certainly not. People have done some great things with her and some remain disappointed. Personally I continue to be disappointed not in her, but in the clothes that are available for her. I keep waiting for Zygote to make other clothing packs available, but I have heard nothing.

Bam, have you looked around at both free dls and 'for sale' things in various stores?? There is quite a bit available--and with various transmaps and textures, it covers a lot of ground. I have a whole big folder on CDs for Vicky as far as clothing goes--from formal to informal and period, etc. Lannie has a CD with textures for the 'regular' Vicky clothing too.

Something like this would be much, much harder to do with Posette (3400 vertices for P's head, 10000 for V's). I know; I tried last night. Moreover, at the risk of tooting my own horn, this demonstrates how far you can get from the default Vicky mannequin-face.

Well, I'll grant that the clothes leave much to be desired as far as functionality is concerned. This is probably one reason (aside from the obvious one) why she is nude in most people's work. All the same, the use of the nude is hardly common for commercial purposes, and Zygote's inability to really solve the clothing problem prevents Victoria from having as many mainstream, money-making uses as she might have. I'm surprised that people think her unattractive. All the women I've shown her to have immediately registered two complaints: her breasts are too large, and she looks too much like a fashion model. They want her LESS pretty. I have found one commercial application for her, but the WOMAN overseeing the project is concerned that her use might project an overtly sexual tone which is inappropriate for the job. So the women who see her seem to think exactly the opposite of what the men think! For me, it all comes down to added realism in the hands and (especially) the face. I've collected so many morph targets that there is almost nothing I can't make her face accomplish, and that's a HUGE advance. And I've made her breasts considerably smaller, though not to suit my own taste!

You nailed it Whistler. Some women seemed to be really upset with the P4 Barbie becoming the P-5 Vicky because she is so much more realistic, especially with the right morphs. (Morph World for Vicky Morphs) But hey, I think they have done a real good job with Michael (which I don't own) and that gives women the opportunity for their own great images -should they so choose. But the P4 Clothes to Vicky issue may be solvable- using new utilities that will "Move" P4 clothes to Vicky geometry.

Attached Link: http://morphs.bbay.com/html/fem_morphs.html

>the P4 Barbie becoming the P-5 Vicky I'm confused. Are you just nicknaming Vicky Posette5...? Working in a university I get to see hundreds of different facial types. What I think Zygote/Curious might have done better is to sit down and map out more head shapes, nose, lip and eye types and add those as easy-to-apply morphs instead of four head shapes and ethnic morphs that make about as much sense as a "Caucasian" dial (I live in AZ and believe you me, the "Native American" model wouldn't go over well with the locals). That said, there's absolutely nothing to prevent us from morphing the existing models into more useful, less glamorous men/women. MorphWorld has FIFTY facial morph packs (let me clarify: packs of *multiple* morphs, not fifty morphs) for fine tuning Posette's head ALONE at the link here.

I called Vicky a P5 as she really is a different creature than the P4. However, officially Curious Labs is speaking of their Pro-pack as for Poser 4, rather than a Poser 5 upgrade. I'm sure there is some marketing reason for it, but they just might as well have called it Poser 5, and since the Millenium is for the next 1000 years (or doesn't even start until Jan. 2001), so Zygote or anyone else will not likely be using the "Millenium" term past 2001, when we will no doubt see some type of "P6" model. But Vicky is a lot more morphable than you think, once you start to play around with her dials and add a few other morphs. I've also already seen some great P5 Michael characters already.

Personally, if you want to know why I don't like Vicky, it's because I don't have her. And the reason I don't have her is because I'm angry that I have to pay a whopping $60 for the kind of model I believe should have come with Poser in the first place. I'm bitter and annoyed. I think Zygote just makes me really angry with their marketing techniques. For example, charging extra for Vicky and Michael when they made crappy low-res models for Poser. Charging extra for hair/clothing/textures for Vicky/Mike that SHOULD come with the models. (Oh come on! At least throw in ONE hairstyle and ONE texture, geez!) It's like buying a pair of shoes and having to pay extra for the laces. WTF? I can't use these without the laces! That's what I'd tell any half-witted sales clerk that tried to sell me shoes like that. I'm Frustrated and Bitter

tbsro Don't forget, Zygote dosn't own Poaer. They make models for the consumer market as well as Value Added Retailers such as MC was. The models included with Poser were liscensed from Zygote for Poser by MC, it was MC's choice as to the quality & type of models that they included. Fortunatly, Zygote dosn't sit still & wait for software marketeers to buy their latest & greatest but they choose to sell direct to the consumer market (many companies don't). It's not Zygotes' fault that either MC was too cheap for better models, didn't want to wait another couple months to release a new update, or thought that the consumer wouldn't want to pay an extra $40-$60.00 for the package. I do agree on the hair though, this is not an easy thing to model. Besides, I believe several of the other figures (NYW & Faire that I know of)) did include hair or "stock" hair from other models would work.

I initially stayed away from getting Vicky until I saw enough interesting items for her that were free and downloadable. That has happened now and it was the reason I bought Vicky about 2-3 weeks ago. My primary reason was to use Darth Logice's Marilyn Monroe, which I think is a truely excellent free Vicky model. And he has posted more morphable Vicky's now. Lot's of stuff is showing up everywhere for her now (and for P5 Mike as well). But you need to know too that Zygote does not own or control Poser, which is Curious Labs, owned now by a German company. Zygote is in Utah and makes other models for 3D Studio and other projects. So their release of P5 Vicky and Mike was their own project, not Poser's, and it is probably why they used the name "Millenium" so that it would NOT be viewed as a Poser release, but as a higher-end add-on. This seems to be what the Pro-Pack is too, a higher-end add-on that regular Poser 4 users will not "automatically" get as an upgrade. However, when people start doing cool stuff with Pro-Pack (and I will certainly be getting it), it will surely piss-off people using Poser 4 who think they should get it for free. Such is life.

Sorry Willf, I didn't see your post, as I was still writing my own- so you answered the question too about Curious Labs and Zygote being two different companies. My guess is that there was going to be a Poser 5 scheduled for a Fall 1999 release, with Zygote Vicky and Mike P5 models in it- but it never happened because, as we know, MetaCreations went under. So to re-coup their investment, and waiting for the Poser dust to clear, Zygote then released their own "P5" models but used a different marketing name to avoid confusion. I am sure that there is some type of reasoning too as to why the Pro-pack will not be released as "Poser 5".

I've exchanged a few emails with Larry and while I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, I don't think PP was something finished they've been sitting on for the past year. PP represents another generation of features to enhance 4. 5 is a future release which will presumably integrate at least some of PP but should be considered a separate version, not just 4+PP. For two hundred fifty dollars, IMHO, no one has the right to bitch about the quality of Posette and Poserguy, which are articulated down to the finger joints. Maxim magazine routinely uses Posette (and rather creatively this month, I might add), Ananova is based off the same mesh, and the morphs we've created are remarkable. True, the faces could have included the kinds of morphs we've developed for a more realistic appearance. Deadlines probably didn't permit it. Zygote has every right to charge extra for the labor they put into Vicky and Michael, and the charges are roughly 30% lower than what similar meshes for other programs cost. Don't bash them for not giving away more than they already have.

Well the real money is in animation and games, which is something pro-pack is obviously going to address. And in particular, the primary professional platform is 3D Studio. 3D Studio, Release 4 (still not out yet to my knowledge) will address this market even better from what I hear. And so I kind of think that the release of Poser Pro-Pack may be somehow tied in with the soon to be released MAX 4, and will no doubt enjoy some of the publicity tied into that. People who whine about the cost of Poser and Poser models need to realize that 3D Studio (like them or not) is a major software powerhouse that sells huge amounts of very expensive 3D software licenses. Poser 3 (which is now basically free) and Poser 4 are not huge income generators in themselves. The German company that bought Poser had other bigger projects for Larry and friends and the money helps keep Poser alive.

Picnic, I appreciate your response. My basic problem with the clothing is that there are certain items from the P4 clothing set that I often use. For part of what I do with Poser I need about 10 females and 10 males who look different yet are wearing the same clothes (think team). I was excited about Vicki and Michael because I thought they would allow for more diverse looking people yet they could all wear the same clothes. However, Vicki/Michael do not have the P4 default clothing. So either I have to give up on the diverse people and go back to what I had or start over with different clothes. Perhaps I am not creative/artistic enough or understand how to do it, but as far as I can tell Vicki does not have Biker shorts, Halter top, Leotard, Unitard, Polo shirt, Shorts, Sweater, T, Turtleneck, or Vest. Michael does not have Running Shoes, a Polo shirt, Shorts, Sweater, T, Turtleneck, Vest, or Muscle Shirt. At one time I held out hope that someone would convert the P4 clothes to Vicki/Michael standards. In addition, I am thinking about using Polyette/Bobby in place of Vicki/Michael. Still, having paid the money for Vicki and Michael I'd hoped that things would be better than they are.

BAM--a good compromise for this would be WarriorDL's composite figures, Pollyette and Bobby--Vicky and Michael heads on P4 bods. You can then morph the heck out of the heads to get wonderful faces and still use all the P4 clothing. Vicky's clothes do have lots of transparency possibilities built right into the clothing to cover the shorts, polo, shorts, TN and leotards. You could use a transmap on the halter dress (think it is Steve Shanks on Poser world) to use the halter top part. The rest can be done pretty much with textures. Now, for Michael--there are cargo shorts available (that was a freebie from Zygote). You can also use transmaps to make shorts from pants. I haven't looked into the other possibilities for him. Since he's so new, there are less things made for him by others. I think this will be forthcoming soon. For Vicky, though, her clothes pak is very versatile. I can't tell if you have the clothes pak or not from your post--think so. Have you tried making the different parts from her clothing transparent--you have to go to the material area, click on that area (like forearms in the dress, etc) then use the sliders to make them 100% transparent. For instance, in the dress, you can make everything transparent except for the Tshirt (forget what they call it). You can do the same for the pants--you will get long, capris and shorts--and I did a transmap for very short shorts at one time. In both the dress and skirts, you can make them long or short with morph dials already there. The key is transmaps and textures. I'm thinking that the P4 clothes will never be made available for Vicky or Michael because the geometry is so different. I'm no modeler at all, but just in reading what all the modelers have said in other forums, my thoughts are that this won't happen--thus the composite figures to use the old clothes. If you aren't using nudes (thus not as concerned about elbows and knees), this should work great--has for me and some others and give you lots of diversity for your 'team'. I had to reread your above post--understand where you are coming from. This may work really well. You dl the Pollyette and Bobby and then use Morph Manager to move all the Vicky and Michael morphs to the heads and go from there. BTW, if I can find an early post where I did a set of textures for Vicky clothes and used the transparency sliders for various parts, I'll post it. Nothing great, but you'll see what I mean. Good luck. DianeB

Zygote have stated Vikki will NOT be in poser 5....just thought i better add that as folks keep saying P5.....anyone got the Zygote NYW thats the best one they made IMHO......Steve

Okay, so maybe Zygote doesn't have anything to do with Metacreations' choice of the P4 woman and man, but they could at least include ONE basic hairstyle and ONE basic texture with each model and then allow users to buy BETTER ones seperately. Batteries not included, to the extreme.

There was a long discussion right here several months ago about the pricing of Victoria and Zygote actually altered the price--down $30 or maybe $20, can't remember. They took it back to the discounted price and then gave those who had bought it at the early discounted price a coupon to spend as they chose. BTW, they have discount coupons relatively often for registered Zygote purchasers to use sometimes for selected things--sometimes for things of your choosing. I think they have been really fair with their pricing of these models--listening to the majority of purchasers--and rethinking their pricing structure. Now--how many companies do you hear doing that?!?

Well I bought her, and I've hardly used her, because; A) out the box she's ugly, B)shoulders, they don't work properly if you switch limits on C)Gentalia, (as in, none) Having said that I do use figures based on Vicky, (Millie and others) and I've also bought Michael, (I've used him a lot) but Victoria herself... "no thanks" later jb

Picnic, Thanks for your thoughtful response. I've printed out this thread and will try your suggestions to see how well I can do. I also have seen your later thread containing some of the possiblities with the clothes and have printed out that too to see if I can reproduce what you did there.

smile you're welcome.

I don't know about Vicky being ugly out of the box. I will say that the face Zygote shows on the sale page looks more feminine than the base face. My chief complaints with Zygote's design of P4 and Vicky, are the following (applicable to both): The nose bridge makes the eyes look too deep. 3/4ths shots of real people don't have that much nose bridge blocking view of the far orbit. Real peoples' orbits are more likely to be at the very edges of the skull. Vicky and Posette have a little too much skull 'padding' that area. Eyes are a little too far apart, esp. when life modeling. Since Nerd discovered how to make morphs affect more than one target, it seems plausible that an 'eyes in' morph could drag the eyeballs along for the ride. Zygote says they used real human data to make Vicky. I'd be interested in hearing just how they did this (but competition being what it is, I doubt they'll ever give away that trade secret) and what executive decisions they had to make where Vicky deviates from a 'normal' human head. That said, I'm certainly glad I bought her.